Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Just saw the news of Shed Tail being banned and might I say:

Shed Tail was always the problem, and not Cyclizar. Sub Pass was problematic in the past, and remains so even with the 50% HP penalty on Orth and Cyc (which was minorly counteracted by Regenerator/Sitrus Berry.) Now I can play with the smol Bike Lizard again and screw around with various fun sets it can run.

Woo! Big victory today.
 
UnusualBoy said:
Not that ST is gone, what pokemon will be the most affected by this? Dnite? Roaring Moon? Volcarona? I think those were the main set up sweepers that enjoyed ST.
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Dragonite still has multiscale so it's not like it's starving for setup opportunities. Idk about Volcarona either. Plenty of setup opportunities due to its strangely decent typing. Roaring Moon I could see being more impacted.
 
I feel like cyc is gonna be ok in the metagame with uturn and regen and spin as a utility pivot. Nothing fantastic, since it still has sorta average stats outside of speed, but very good in its own right. it'll probably stay in ou, but I can see it dropping to uu if the metagame gets too crazy

As for orth, it'll definitely drop out of ou. eartheater + steel type is a great combo, and it has lots of utility options like rocks and spikes, but its lack of recovery and trash special bulk is ultimately what's gonna let it down. I can see it at least being in ru tho. maaaaaybe uu but I feel like that's pushing it
 
SpritePony said:
Sub Pass was problematic in the past, and remains so even with the 50% HP penalty on Orth and Cyc
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Sub pass was never a factor of BP in the pass, and thus wasn't problematic.

Anyways, regarding the viability of Cyclizar and Orthworm post shed Tail, I don't expect either to be staples or even common enough niche picks to retain OU placement. But I think both still have small niches that will allow them occasional usage. I saw some Cyclizar before its original ban with LO as an offensive spinner, which isn't a terrible idea? And Orthworm remains one of the only pokemon that doesn't get 2HKOd by banded tera glaive rush from Bax. It also sits on defensive Tusks lacking fighting stab, and can use that opportunity to throw up.some hazards. Small niche, but worth acknowledging at least.
 
UnusualBoy said:
Not that ST is gone, what pokemon will be the most affected by this? Dnite? Roaring Moon? Volcarona? I think those were the main set up sweepers that enjoyed ST.
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I'd say Volc and DNite (albeit to a lesses extent) more than any. Roaring Moon is really hurt by this, but Moon also has CB sets that it can viably run. Volc and DNite are almost exclusively setup sweepers, so losing the most easily splashable tool to secure safe setup is a massive blow for them, wiith Volc especially having trouble setting us as is.
 
UnusualBoy said:
Not that ST is gone, what pokemon will be the most affected by this? Dnite? Roaring Moon? Volcarona? I think those were the main set up sweepers that enjoyed ST.
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I would say in general that all our Speed-boosting sweepers (Volc, Booster Moth and Valiant, and Dragon Dancers like Bax, Dnite, and Moon) are affected in some capacity. Like Empress Mobile pointed out though, Volc and Dnite are significantly more self-sufficient than the others, so I could see them being less negatively impacted by the loss of Shed Tail support. Moon and Valiant probably take the biggest hit considering how common they were on Shed Tail teams and their lacking defensive profiles, but they're just as excellent on HO teams without Shed Tail, so they'll be fine.
 
Anyhow, I'm messing around with a few different sets here, and I want some opinions on them. Keep in mind that this is entirely theorymonning here, and has zero practical testing done.

:cyclizar:
Choice Band:
:cyclizar: @ Choice Band
Adamant/Jolly Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Dragon Claw
Knock Off
Rapid Spin/Iron Head
U-Turn

More or less a bread-and-butter CB set. DC for STAB, KO for coverage and utility, RS for utility, Iron Head for coverage, U-Turn for GTFO plays. Having a Ghost immunity is super good, and being able to outpace non-Scarf Gholdengo is super valuable.
Choice Specs:
:cyclizar: @ Choice Specs
Modest/Timid Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Draco Meteor
Overheat
Tera Blast/Thunderbolt/Hyper Voice
U-Turn

This set aims to make good use of the obscenely strong moves that Dragon Bike here has in its kit; Draco Meteor and Overheat. Both are very powerful attacks in their own rights, and having Regenerator makes it easier to switch in and spam the living crap out of them. U-Turn is your bread-and-butter pivoting move, and your last slot has options. Hyper Voice gives you another STAB that can hit fairly hard. Thunderbolt gives you coverage. Tera Blast will always be STAB, regardless of whatever Tera Type you choose. I'm not sure what would be the most optimal choice here... First thoughts go to Water, Fairy, Steel, Fire (if you run Tbolt over TB), or Dark.
Utility:
:cyclizar: @ Heavy-Duty Booties
Jolly Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Taunt/Overheat/Draco Meteor
U-Turn

Once again, bread-and-butter set. Literally the same Shed Tail set we've all seen a thousand times, minus the Shed Tail. Knock and Spin for utility, Taunt to shut down slower Pokemon that want to hazard/set up on you, and U-Turn to pivot. Good times.
Life Orb:
:cyclizar: @ Life Orb
Hasty/Naive Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 Atk
Draco Meteor
Knock Off/Crunch/Overheat
Rapid Spin/Knock Off/Taunt
U-Turn

This is one of my most flexible theorymon sets here, as you can play similarly to mix Valiant and passively Regen your HP while being aggressive. There's so many choices you can make here that it's kind of overwhelming. U-Turn, as always, is mandatory. Draco smacks things for big damage. KO/RS for utility, Crunch/Overheat for damage and coverage, Taunt to shut various things down.

Out of all of these, it feels like Utility and Specs have the most to give. Band, in spite of an extra 10 base Attack, barely misses a lot of critical damage marks (especially on Pokemon like Gholdengo, which Specs absolutely ROASTS.) Utility we're mostly familiar with, good Pokemon. Life Orb is 50/50... Will need testing.
 
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SpritePony said:
Anyhow, I'm messing around with a few different sets here, and I want some opinions on them. Keep in mind that this is entirely theorymonning here, and has zero practical testing done.

:cyclizar:
Choice Band:
:cyclizar: @ Choice Band
Adamant/Jolly Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 Atk / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Dragon Claw
Knock Off
Rapid Spin/Iron Head
U-Turn

More or less a bread-and-butter CB set. DC for STAB, KO for coverage and utility, RS for utility, Iron Head for coverage, U-Turn for GTFO plays. Having a Ghost immunity is super good, and being able to outpace non-Scarf Gholdengo is super valuable.
Choice Specs:
:cyclizar: @ Choice Specs
Modest/Timid Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Draco Meteor
Overheat
Tera Blast/Thunderbolt/Hyper Voice
U-Turn

This set aims to make good use of the obscenely strong moves that Dragon Bike here has in its kit; Draco Meteor and Overheat. Both are very powerful attacks in their own rights, and having Regenerator makes it easier to switch in and spam the living crap out of them. U-Turn is your bread-and-butter pivoting move, and your last slot has options. Hyper Voice gives you another STAB that can hit fairly hard. Thunderbolt gives you coverage. Tera Blast will always be STAB, regardless of whatever Tera Type you choose. I'm not sure what would be the most optimal choice here... First thoughts go to Water, Fairy, Steel, Fire (if you run Tbolt over TB), or Dark.
Utility:
:cyclizar: @ Heavy-Duty Booties
Jolly Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 HP / 252 Speed / 4 SpDef
Knock Off
Rapid Spin
Taunt
U-Turn

Once again, bread-and-butter set. Literally the same Shed Tail set we've all seen a thousand times, minus the Shed Tail. Knock and Spin for utility, Taunt to shut down slower Pokemon that want to hazard/set up on you, and U-Turn to pivot. Good times.
Life Orb:
:cyclizar: @ Life Orb
Hasty/Naive Nature | Regenerator
Tera X (TBD)
252 SpAtk / 252 Speed / 4 Atk
Draco Meteor
Knock Off/Crunch/Overheat
Rapid Spin/Knock Off/Taunt
U-Turn

This is one of my most flexible theorymon sets here, as you can play similarly to mix Valiant and passively Regen your HP while being aggressive. There's so many choices you can make here that it's kind of overwhelming. U-Turn, as always, is mandatory. Draco smacks things for big damage. KO/RS for utility, Crunch/Overheat for damage and coverage, Taunt to shut various things down.
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I believe the utility set would need one real attacking move so as not to be incapable of hurting all the offensive mons,most of which cyclizar outspeeds. Draco meteor or outrage are great options with many dragons running around (even dragapult can be ohko'd, if cyc has grabbed a rapid spin first.also,if u catch dragapult on the switch trying to spinblock, it's no longer acting as that). Overheat is good to roast gholdengo.
Life orb is, quiet as told, a very nice set. LO gives cyc the power boost it definitely needs, is not restrictive, pairs well with its big base power moves, recoil is offset thru regen and, based on moves chosen,both attacking and utility ones, can maintain some of its utility characteristics,thru rapid spin, knock n u-turn.
 
Perish Song said:
Day 1 Thoughts:

Shed Tail is bullshit.

My fave combo is passing the Substitute to Dragonite. Sub benefits from Multiscale, means you gotta setup much more comfortably compared to Roaring Moon, plus better coverage provides more Terra options. Seriously try out Dragonite. Pretty sure this also makes base Volcarona insanely stupid as well.
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behold, a prophet
yNot Mence said:
My bad lmao, I meant Shed Tail but I still have PTSD from that dumb worm. Gotta get used to it.
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nothin to get used to, bud, orthworm doesn't even exist without shed tail
 
scarletnetto said:
I believe the utility set would need one real attacking move so as not to be incapable of hurting all the offensive mons,most of which cyclizar outspeeds. Draco meteor or outrage are great options with many dragons running around (even dragapult can be ohko'd, if cyc has grabbed a rapid spin first.also,if u catch dragapult on the switch trying to spinblock, it's no longer acting as that). Overheat is good to roast gholdengo.
Life orb is, quiet as told, a very nice set. LO gives cyc the power boost it definitely needs, is not restrictive, pairs well with its big base power moves, recoil is offset thru regen and, based on moves chosen,both attacking and utility ones, can maintain some of its utility characteristics,thru rapid spin, knock n u-turn.
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Yeah, utility not having something like Draco/Outrage does hurt a fair bit, but to be fair it isn't necessarily about it dealing damage on that set -- just being an annoying little bugger for the opponent. No one wants to switch into a Knock, and Spin + Boots + Regen is kind of an annoying combo. No hazards ever.
Taunt can be subbed out for Outrage/Draco/Overheat, though. No questions asked. You can destroy non-Scarf Dengo with it so easily between a Knock on the switch into Overheat.
Utility was entirely based on the time when Dragon Bike was OU legal alongside of Shed Tail. That set was normally Shed Tail, Knock/Spin/Taunt, Knock/Spin/Taunt, U-Turn.
 
WINNERS OF THE SHED TAIL BAN

:garganacl: the biggest winner, less sub spam means more salt cure, a new era of stall is upon us, and he is leading the charge, anyway, ban (in case somebody takes this seriously, its not, please dont get too offended)

:Dondozo: / :Clodsire: / :Skeledirge: these guys have now less pressure above them, meaning they can have some more action

:Gholdengo: Offense has to shift their styles, and hazard stack hasn't gone out of style, so he is probably gonna see more use

:Torkoal: fewer mons to abuse him equals sun has less constrains to shine

:Cyclizar: back on the tier baby

LOSERS

:Kingambit: he is 00000.1% sad that now a +2 is not as free a before, but for the most part, he doesn't really care

:Roaring Moon: AcroMoon is still a menace, not as free as before, but It's still a menace, the choice sets don't give a shit

:Dragonite: Multiscale is way easier to break now, which means that his survivability dropped

:Orthworm:
-Bogdanoff, he FOMO´d into Paradox mon spam
+Crash it


NEUTRAL

:Dragapult: hold up you guys were behind sub?
 
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mom can I have mienshao
"no honey, we have mienshao at home"
mienshao at home:
Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Normal/Fairy/Dark/whatever idk man
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Body Slam


This feels like it'll play like Mienshao Lite, fast LO backed Regen attacker with U-Turn to keep momentum and healing, but with less attack and weaker stabs. Power Whip (yes. it gets power whip. idk how or why.) (almost) 2hkos Tusk, Body Slam is for stab, and Knock and Turn are self-explanatory. Walled by a lot of stuff but you just (hopefully) U-Turn out of them after knocking them on the switch or something.
 
SpritePony said:
Yeah, utility not having something like Draco/Outrage does hurt a fair bit, but to be fair it isn't necessarily about it dealing damage on that set -- just being an annoying little bugger for the opponent. No one wants to switch into a Knock, and Spin + Boots + Regen is kind of an annoying combo. No hazards ever.
Taunt can be subbed out for Outrage/Draco/Overheat, though. No questions asked. You can destroy non-Scarf Dengo with it so easily between a Knock on the switch into Overheat.
Utility was entirely based on the time when Dragon Bike was OU legal alongside of Shed Tail. That set was normally Shed Tail, Knock/Spin/Taunt, Knock/Spin/Taunt, U-Turn.
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Yeah,i guess on the utility set, taunt is the odd-one-out, in favor of an attacking move. Personally,i'd favor overheat for the reason u mentioned regarding gholdengo. Dragapult is getting hit for significant damage by knock regardless. And in a pinch, overheat (especially tera fire overheat) can finish off iron valiant from high health (thou i ve not run the exact calcs), all while maintaining the primary objective of the utility set (w/ boots)
 
Athyestic said:
mom can I have mienshao
"no honey, we have mienshao at home"
mienshao at home:
Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Normal/Fairy/Dark/whatever idk man
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Power Whip
- Body Slam


This feels like it'll play like Mienshao Lite, fast LO backed Regen attacker with U-Turn to keep momentum and healing, but with less attack and weaker stabs. Power Whip (yes. it gets power whip. idk how or why.) (almost) 2hkos Tusk, Body Slam is for stab, and Knock and Turn are self-explanatory. Walled by a lot of stuff but you just (hopefully) U-Turn out of them after knocking them on the switch or something.
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What if, now hear me out now with this crazy shiz, we replace Body Slam... With Double Edge? Yeah, we take two forms of recoil... But the DAMAGE. Also, Regen.
 
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
 
Pinecoishot said:
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
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Espathra is still dumb. Not as dumb, but still extremely dumb. The secondary factor of it getting banned is because of the Tera mindgames it can play. If you call the Tera wrong, you lose on the spot 80% of the time. The third factor is it getting free boosts. You NEED to have a Red Card/Roar/Haze user, and hope you don't get nuked from orbit by it. Or run Unaware and get clapped by Stored Power.

Espathra stays banned for now. It's too much of a nuisance.
 
Pinecoishot said:
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
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Please no. Shed Tail was just the tip of the iceberg for Espathra. I recall it being a consideration in its quickban, but it wasn't nearly as impactful as its Tera abusing potential. The counterplay to it (e.g., Tera Dark Clodsire, random Red Card user, etc.) made teams categorically worse against teams without Espathra. Pretty much the definition of matchup fishing cheese. There is plenty to support keeping it out of OU even without Shed Tail, namely the fact it was able to wreak havoc before without being paired with a Shed Tail user.
 
I like the idea of special LO Cyclizar more than mostly physical.

Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge / U-turn

If you can believe it, max SpA Overheat does more to Great Tusk than max Atk Power Whip, so you can imagine its STABs just doing that much more to it, as well. Overheat also OHKOes bulk-less Gholdengo after rocks, has a small chance to OHKO Kingambit, dents Iron Valiant hard, and does upwards to 93% to standard Corviknight. Draco Meteor just slams Great Tusk, physDef Rotom-W, Torkoal, and every Dragon-type slower than it hard. Knock Off wouldn't really be used for damage, but helps with progress vs fat in removing items like HDB and Leftovers. Double-Edge, even without investment, is good for 2HKOing Clodsire and Volcarona (against Volc, Draco first since it does the same against +0, then Double-Edge so it's not as bad if you get burned). DE recoil is then offset by Regenerator, but despite that, keep in mind it's also stacking with LO. If running U-turn, may as well stick to Timid.
 
Vengeance417 said:
I like the idea of special LO Cyclizar more than mostly physical.

Cyclizar @ Life Orb
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Dragon / Fairy
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpDef / 252 Spe
Naive / Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Overheat
- Knock Off
- Double-Edge / U-turn

If you can believe it, max SpA Overheat does more to Great Tusk than max Atk Power Whip, so you can imagine its STABs just doing that much more to it, as well. Overheat also OHKOes bulk-less Gholdengo after rocks, has a small chance to OHKO Kingambit, dents Iron Valiant hard, and does upwards to 93% to standard Corviknight. Draco Meteor just slams Great Tusk, physDef Rotom-W, Torkoal, and every Dragon-type slower than it hard. Knock Off wouldn't really be used for damage, but helps with progress vs fat in removing items like HDB and Leftovers. Double-Edge, even without investment, is good for 2HKOing Clodsire and Volcarona (against Volc, Draco first since it does the same against +0, then Double-Edge so it's not as bad if you get burned). DE recoil is then offset by Regenerator, but despite that, keep in mind it's also stacking with LO. If running U-turn, may as well stick to Timid.
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I like but I don't think you can slash U-turn
U-turn is like first move V.I.P. reserved spot
 
" There also is the issue that Shed Tail offense caused the rise in usage of an item such as Red Card showing how centralizing the move has become in the metagame "

Shed Tail making bulky Pokemon run an item that is also useful for ejecting set-up sweepers or sporing a possibly good target is too much but Salt Cure is totally fine. Defensive pokemon having a one time use item is a cause for concern but offensive pokemon being forced to run a truly bad item in Covert Cloak or being forced to run Substitute is totally fine and healthy for a "balanced" metagame.

Shed Tail being banned is whatever but such hypocrisy is hilarious. I guess the council only makes fair decisions when it fits their agenda of what is uncompetitive or not.
 
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