So, this partly implies the possibility of suspecting Last Respects once The Hisuian Basculins drop?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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This can be tricky since Smeargle won't be an issue with LR, while it can be annoying with shed tail.
Oh I didn't read that it was about Smeargle. Didn't knew it was about to be released either.
Anyways, I was asking because, like Houndstone, the Basculegions might not be at all broken without the broken-by-default LR.
While we don't have an official release date for Smeargle, we also don't have one for the Hisuian mons. If they arrive at the same time it would be needed that Smeargle is also broken with it to ban the move.
Eh not really. I wish they'd just ban the mons anyway. I have a feeling we're about to enter an era with tons of move bans which is gonna make tiering a mess. But whatever, I'm probably in a small minority there. As for Shed Tail specifically, if we are to ban it (which I disagree with, for the previously stated reasons) there is really no reason to test it on Smeargle or any other terrible mon.
Oh definitely, I'm expecting gen 10 to just heavy nerf a lot of the new moves, and that's not even counting any new moves with these dlcs. What were they thinking with the +50 bp moves with those conditions.
This guy don't want a meta where I can use my boy Palkia as long it has 0 ivs on both attacking stats with a max of 252 evs in total and only can put 64 on speed.
Now talking seriously, the moves bans sound silly but I'm fearing that in DLCs we are going to get dumb stuff like H-samurot or Kleavor signature moves as tutor moves and everyone hating it. In that case I can see it being totally justified banning the move if the distribution is wide, but that are just assumtions.
Yes of course if the moves end up with wider distribution I think it's a great time to reevaluate the moves. I think 2 users is a pretty weak threshold for deviating from simplistic ban lists though. It was impossible to fix BP without banning the move since countless combinations of users and abusers would just keep showing up with each individual ban or complex ban implemented. This one seems pretty easy though.
I used sturdy Magnezone with electric terrain and Steel beam as a suicide lead back when SV OU had just released. I used a custap berry set but then PS admins realised the custap berry was illegal in SV.
Idk if it would still work with its slow speed tier but its worth considering I guess.
Meowscarada heat set:
I call it matchup Queen
Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Flower Trick
Offensive teams have very few options for switch ins. Outside of using Tera, there’s not much you can do. It’s similar to the original black glasses set, except it trades taunt for low kick to OHKO kingambit and majorly dent roaring moon/Hydreigon.
don’t use protean, the point is to keep stab to ko switchins.
you can probably swap out sucker punch for a coverage move, but it’s super useful against various scarf/priority users and speedier threats.
I call it matchup Queen
Meowscarada @ Black Glasses
Ability: Overgrow
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Knock Off
- Sucker Punch
- Low Kick
- Flower Trick
Offensive teams have very few options for switch ins. Outside of using Tera, there’s not much you can do. It’s similar to the original black glasses set, except it trades taunt for low kick to OHKO kingambit and majorly dent roaring moon/Hydreigon.
don’t use protean, the point is to keep stab to ko switchins.
you can probably swap out sucker punch for a coverage move, but it’s super useful against various scarf/priority users and speedier threats.
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On moves, I feel like Smeargle really only should factor into Status move considerations for a Move-vs-Mons Suspect, since its design gimmick means it only uses moves that are basically stat-agnostic with any effectiveness.
252 Atk Tera Ghost Smeargle Last Respects (350 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
Obviously something like Shed Tail on a mon with Spore or such can be a massive headache, but for offensive moves it's not simply lacking other kit parts like Dracovish's Strong Jaw, it is actively designed to be as garbage as possible at anything having to do with personal damage dealt/taken.
252 Atk Tera Ghost Smeargle Last Respects (350 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Manaphy: 163-193 (47.8 - 56.5%) -- 86.7% chance to 2HKO
Obviously something like Shed Tail on a mon with Spore or such can be a massive headache, but for offensive moves it's not simply lacking other kit parts like Dracovish's Strong Jaw, it is actively designed to be as garbage as possible at anything having to do with personal damage dealt/taken.
At this point I'm waiting for Finch to drop that verdict... Because I get the feeling we should hear something soon...
I hope shed got the ban!
I hope shed got the ban!
I doubt it. Shed tail isn't cyclizar's signature move and has clearly proved to be problematic as a move, rather than being a cyclizar exclusive issue. I don't think it's anything to lose sleep over, it's not like they're gonna start banning thousand arrows to keep zygarde legal, or rage fist to keep ahnillape legal or anything like that.
@ shedtail
To not make this a one liner, thank god Shed Tail is on the docket either as our next test or a quickban. It is so centralizing and enables the worst for HO. It also is just a feels bad move. I don't feel anything getting my pokemon in with a good shed tail to sweep, while I feel bad when it is done to me. It never feels like I did anything to outplay my opponent, it feels like I am cheesing them.
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You say that now but I'd like to revisit this post in a year or two and see where we're at with this. If it were to stop at Shed Tail then I wouldn't be as concerned, but we've already seen chatter about Last Respects and even Revival Blessing. I won't speculate too much about unreleased moves but I do think we are opening the door for an unfortunate precedent.
What exactly is "a mess"? If a move is uncompetitive and not restricted to one mon - it wouldn't make sense to ban the mons when they are fine w/o the move
... Do you also want every mon with access to Baton Pass banned?
No, I addressed this earlier, but that is obviously a case where individual bans / repeatedly modified complex bans are insufficient to nerf a move with wide distribution.
Because tiers are formed by usage stats and ban lists of Pokemon, not moves.
Moves/abilities/items have been banned before so what is the difference now?
If a move is found broken or uncompetitive on every user (or almost every user in wide distribution cases), then the move is broken. Its why OHKO moves or Evasion moves are nixed. Last Respects is almost certainly broken on Houndstone and Basculegion, with only the pre evolved basculin maybe not being "broken" with the move. That raises some red flags to me. To me, banning a move like Shed Tail or Last Respects is no different from banning Baton Pass or Double Team.
There is obviously a huge difference between banning those types of moves. If the case is that Shed Tail is fundamentally uncompetitive because of the support it provides, then okay I can see the argument. If the argument is, well, it was broken on one Pokemon, so we banned the mon, but now it's broken on two, so we banned the move. It's a pretty weak basis. This definitely wouldn't hold up for offensive moves like Last Respects. You can probably make a case for Shed Tail being uncompetitive (ie cheese) in a vacuum. But the move having one user vs. two really isn't relevant when making that determination. We aren't talking a wide distribution here either way.
Yes, those are exceptions. It isn't standard tiering practice, or at least it hasn't been. I have explained pretty thoroughly my thoughts on why this isn't the same so I can leave it at that.
#10,000 POST
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This is #10,000 post in the thread which was reached in exactly 5months,kinda insane to think on average 2k mssgs per month(idk what even gets discussed to reach 2k monthly mssgs
)now give likes
Edit:GG to the mod who trolled this mssg by deleting a prev mssg
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#10,000 POST
This is #10,000 post in the thread which was reached in exactly 5months,kinda insane to think on average 2k mssgs per month(idk what even gets discussed to reach 2k monthly mssgs
now give likes
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#10,000 POST
This is #10,000 post in the thread which was reached in exactly 5months,kinda insane to think on average 2k mssgs per month(idk what even gets discussed to reach 2k monthly mssgs
now give likes
Edit:GG to the mod who trolled this mssg
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