Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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Pinecoishot said:
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
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The combination of Speed Boost and Calm Mind is a better version of Quiver Dance, on a Stored Power user. Maybe if OU implements Tera Preview, since that removes the guessing game aspect of defensively answering it, but it still can abuse screens or pivoting moves to get off a free psudo-Quiver Dance.
 
Pinecoishot said:
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
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Pathra cannot be released until Tera is gone, she is still a menace since she still beats her checks and counters with tera blast and changing typing.
 
1LDK said:
WINNERS OF THE SHED TAIL BAN

:garganacl: the biggest winner, less sub spam means more salt cure, a new era of stall is upon us, and he is leading the charge, anyway, ban (in case somebody takes this seriously, its not, please dont get too offended)

:Dondozo: / :Clodsire: / :Skeledirge: these guys have now less pressure above them, meaning they can have some more action

:Gholdengo: Offense has to shift their styles, and hazard stack hasn't gone out of style, so he is probably gonna see more use

:Torkoal: fewer mons to abuse him equals sun has less constrains to shine

:Cyclizar: back on the tier baby

LOSERS

:Kingambit: he is 00000.1% sad that now a +2 is not as free a before, but for the most part, he doesn't really care

:Roaring Moon: AcroMoon is still a menace, not as free as before, but It's still a menace, the choice sets don't give a shit

:Dragonite: Multiscale is way easier to break now, which means that his survivability dropped

:Orthworm:
-Bogdanoff, he FOMO´d into Paradox mon spam
+Crash it


NEUTRAL

:Dragapult: hold up you guys were behind sub?
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Great tusk just gets even better. It checks most of the winners and now there is one less ground immunity is in the tier plus dragonite is going to fall without free substitutes
 
Pinecoishot said:
Ok time for the biggest Espathra apologist to make a case to let it back into OU. As we all know Espathra was quickbanned after the Chien Pao suspect due spurred by the survey result of it. In the QB announcement and in the public mind, a major reason for this was shed tail and it being a pretty objectively stupid abuser of it. While I can’t speak for the council, I really doubt it would get even close to the same level of support from the survey if it couldn’t have fun and abuse the free turns with a slow sub from worm. With shed tail banned now, we have to recognize Espathra and it’s potential to be a very annoying but not broken Pokemon in the current metagame. While Espathra also abuses screens and hazards well, there just haven’t been proof that outside of shed tail it’s broken. No SPL games of it without shed tail in general to my knowledge. While I can understand people would rather have their preferred dumb pokemon be suspected then have to deal with the mass PTSD Espathra caused. We just don’t have any proof or any support of it being banned in a shed tail-less metagame.
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i think its definitely worth a retest, maybe not necessarily at the moment, but @ some pt
 
Ast0rga said:
I like but I don't think you can slash U-turn
U-turn is like first move V.I.P. reserved spot
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I think for a LO set that should go to Knock Off, since the main objective of LO Cyclizar should be to dish out as much damage as possible, and removing enemy items helps with that. Overheat is needed for Steels, Iron Valiant, etc, and Draco provides great neutral STAB. U-turn is still a good option, but I don't think it's a necessity on a set like this compared to Utility or Scarf. Double Edge helps with special tanks, and having a backup option for Volc is really nice imo.
 
the best worst said:
Great tusk just gets even better. It checks most of the winners and now there is one less ground immunity is in the tier plus dragonite is going to fall without free substitutes
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I think the Shed Tail ban is a mixed bag for Dragonite. Yeah, it was a great recipient of Shed Tail, but Orthworm was also one of the hardest counters to Dragonite in the game, and could often use Dragonite as an entry point to pass Shed Tail to various OP offensive teammates. With Shed Tail banned, Orthworm's usage is likely to completely disappear. I think this drastically benefits Dragonite's MU vs Offensive since Dragonite's powerful priority is significantly harder to challenge. Clever Tera play and some offensive structures like Psyspam do a fine enough job against it, but I think offenses options against it are more limited than they were before.
 
Imo salt cure is no more unbearable than magma storm in previous gens, but the complete and utter lack of any mon with magic guard makes it seem like it’s a bigger problem. I can see it being overbearing to defensive teams, but garganacl is a mon that puts a lot of pressure on ho teams now that shed tail is gone. It’s kind of a necessary force in the metagame, seeing as ho is still as braindead and linear as ever, and thus forces braindead and linear counterplay.
 
TheTraininator said:
Once doggo isn’t the only Pokémon that actually learns the move, probably yeah. Wait for Basculegion and Basculin-W to drop, then that debate can actually happen.
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There is no functional difference, at that point. If we are going to start banning moves, it makes no difference whether a second/third Pokemon can learn it. Of course there's no reason we should prefer that tiering procedure, but still.
 
Empress Mobile said:
There is no functional difference, at that point. If we are going to start banning moves, it makes no difference whether a second/third Pokemon can learn it.
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Yes, it does.

We are not going to fragment individual Pokemon without signature or limited distribution moves when they’re the only thing that learns the move that’s viable. That would just be a Pokemon ban. The burden of proof for a move ban is different than that of a normal Pokemon ban.
 
Finchinator said:
Yes, it does.

We are not going to fragment individual Pokemon without signature or limited distribution moves when they’re the only thing that learns the move that’s viable. That would just be a Pokemon ban. The burden of proof for a move ban is different than that of a normal Pokemon ban.
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I have been arguing this point for months, but the ban for Shed Tail (an extremely limited distribution move) went forward yesterday. Two Pokemon is a pretty weak threshold for deviating from tiering policy to ban a move over a Pokemon.
 
Empress Mobile said:
I have been arguing this point for months, but the ban for Shed Tail (an extremely limited distribution move) went forward yesterday. Two Pokemon is a pretty weak threshold for deviating from tiering policy to ban a move over a Pokemon.
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Orthworm’s success demonstrated that shed tail was inherently broken and enabled very obnoxious and linear playstyles. It’s not just cyclizar that was the problem.
If you take a look at baton pass, you can say that there was only a few viable stat passers like scolipede or espathra, but that was still enough to ban the move rather than those mons. They didn’t keep baton pass just to allow plusle and minun to use it.
 
My personal opinion is that banning the 2 moves is the best solution, Orthworm showed that the move is broken, and you really don't wanna give the smeargle fans attention, or they'll fuck up the tier just like every single last time possible

In Last Respects, I see no debate whatsoever, we know for a certain fact that the basculigeons will get swift swim, therefore, they are going to be broken, it's just something that is gonna happen

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Ghost Basculegion Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Tera Dark Chesnaught: 303-357 (79.7 - 93.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(this is assuming max damage last respects and tera ghost vs tera dark chesnaught)

I mean, sure, there's no rush in doing it, and that's true, but to say "we don't know for certain" just doesn't work for me BROTHER
 
uppababy said:
Orthworm’s success demonstrated that shed tail was inherently broken and enabled very obnoxious and linear playstyles. It’s not just cyclizar that was the problem.
If you take a look at baton pass, you can say that there was only a few viable stat passers like scolipede or espathra, but that was still enough to ban the move rather than those mons. They didn’t keep baton pass just to allow plusle and minun to use it.
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This is fair. I think I am just caught up in the reasoning. I'm apprehensive of this being applied to moves like Last Respects given the implications for tiering. Thanks for the additional insight.
 
RKOtaku said:
" There also is the issue that Shed Tail offense caused the rise in usage of an item such as Red Card showing how centralizing the move has become in the metagame "

Shed Tail making bulky Pokemon run an item that is also useful for ejecting set-up sweepers or sporing a possibly good target is too much but Salt Cure is totally fine. Defensive pokemon having a one time use item is a cause for concern but offensive pokemon being forced to run a truly bad item in Covert Cloak or being forced to run Substitute is totally fine and healthy for a "balanced" metagame.

Shed Tail being banned is whatever but such hypocrisy is hilarious. I guess the council only makes fair decisions when it fits their agenda of what is uncompetitive or not.
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This has big r/stunfisk "well fuck democracy I guess" energy
 
I think moves and abilites are just a lot more in the "judgement of those involved" territory because that's when you start having to consider stuff like "are people gonna push to use NFEs for the sake of this" like we saw with Arena Trap, then you have to decide if the aspect is still stifling things to the same degree or if it's even worth trying to test all those edge cases to keep the move/ability at the expense of the "known" OP mons holding it.

Baton Pass was a mess but it does demonstrate that at some point the simpler solution was to just accept some lower tier collateral damage to not make the testing and enforcement a headache for every involved team.
 
I have complained a lot about banning in this gen so I had to log on to give credit where it's due. The shed tail ban should have been what happened instead of a cyclizar ban in the first place, but I'm happy that eventually we came to the right decision. If we are going to ban BP all the time there was no reason to leave a move unbanned that can just do sub and bp in one turn.

Move bans are super precedented in Smogon metas, most notably being BP of course. I think most people would rather be able to use more pokemon with particular problem moves banned than to have a few mons with a problem move just be wholly inaccessible. Maybe we eventually do this to last respects or rage fist, but I highly doubt those in charge move toward that this year. It is a bit sillier to do with a pure attacking option move. But I would really like to see basculegion not get immediately banned when it drops, for example! There are so many things you might want to do with it besides last respects sweeping if that move was simply banned.

I think there is a more legitimate argument for banning particularly egregious moves now more than ever. It's very clear that pokemon is intentionally balanced, now, around the VGC metagame, with changes to singles relevant mechanics and moves seeming to mostly be to obstruct the previous generation's metagame state. At the end of the day the OU metagame is what we make it. It can be whatever we want, for essentially whatever reasons we see fit, so long as democratic input is valued.

At the end of the day I'm excited to not have to see shed tail ever again, Jesus. Enough was enough. I said a while ago I'm done with the tier until it got banned, so I guess it's time to play!
 
`ShadowTwo said:
When HOME comes out, I would still like us to be able to play Basculegion Last Respects at least a day before the ban on the move, so that we can enjoy it a bit and be hilarious in front of the absurd power of LR.
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Well who really knows. Perhaps something will be even more broken than last respects that will get the banhammer first. I don't think the council has banned two things in less than 24 hours consecutively, except for Espathra after the tiger Weavile guy suspect
 
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