Why is Sturdinja a D tier?GEN 7 VR UPDATE !!!
It's been almost a year since the Gen 7 VR was updated, and a substantial amount of metagame development has happened since then, especially with the establishment of a Gen 7 PH ladder. In response to the more developed metagame we have now, we've also added B+, B-, and D-ranks for the regular VR, as well as D rank for the Wonder Guard VR. Also, please welcome TheCreatorOfBullsht and Eyeos to the VR council!
Without further ado, here are the ranking changes:
Regular VR:
S to S-
A to A+
UR to A+
A+ to A-
A+ to A-
A to A-
B to A-
A- to B+
B to B+
UR to B+
UR to B+
A to B
C to B
UR to B
UR to B
B to B-
C to B-
C to B-
C to B-
UR to B-
B to C
UR to C
C to D
C to D
UR to D
UR to D
C to UR
Wonder Guard VR:
A to A+
A to A+
A- to A+
S- to A
S- to A
S- to A
A- to A
C to A
A to A-
B to A-
B- to B+
B to B+
UR to B+
A+ to B
A- to B
A- to B
B+ to B
B+ to B
UR to B
A to B-
UR to B-
A- to C
B to C
B- to D
C to UR
As always, feel free to ask questions about individual rank changes here or in the Pure Hackmons Discord server.
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Metagame USUM Pure Hackmons
- Thread starter aerobee
- Start date
This is a follow up to this VR describing a few of my more divisive / strange opinions alongside really just any elements of this VR that I felt are worth talking about. I disagree with a lot of elements of the official VR, and want a more public decryption as to why instead of just arguing on Discord.'Sup nerds, I made a VR. I've really enjoyed how the meta has developed, with Spam getting worse and more balanced structures getting better I've been having a lot of fun. That said it's hard to play this meta because the Ladder is more of a shitshow of shenanigans than an AG ladder. People have been getting to the 1400s with the worst teams imaginable just 'cause the ladder is full of a bunch of other people running similarly awful teams, and they clog up any ladder play with complete garbage. It's a very fun meta I just wish the ladder would actually play it. Because of this I haven't been playing as much lately, but I still believe in these placements.
I also wanna note, there's a few Pokemon on this VR (especially in the lower tiers) that I'm really unsure about due to a lack of experience, but I tried my best on them lol. Ho-Oh is an example of that, no one runs it and I've never run it but it seems alright.
I don't have much else to say, if any aspect seems strange feel free to ask about it.
S Tier
S
1.Wonder Guard
2.S Tier
1.Audino-Mega
A Tier
A+
2.Slowbro-Mega
3.Greninja-Ash
A
4.Hoopa-Unbound
5.Meloetta
6.Gyarados-Mega
7.Necrozma-Dawn-Wings
8.Slaking
9.Arceus
A-
10.Oranguru
11.Kartana
12.Muk-Alola
13.Scizor-Mega
Not ranked within tiers past this point.
B Tier
B+
Celesteela
Ferrothorn
Gardevoir-Mega
Groudon-Primal
Sableye-Mega
Umbreon
Regigigas
B
Bisharp
Blissey
Cresselia
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Lunala
Houndoom-Mega
Mewtwo-Mega-X
Mewtwo-Mega-Y
Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
Solgaleo
Type: Null
B-
Aggron-Mega
Chansey
Deoxys-Speed
Gengar-Mega
Kyogre-Primal
Lopunny-Mega
Magearna
Pheromosa
Registeel
Swampert-Mega
Yveltal
C Tier
Beedrill-Mega
Deoxys-Attack
Dialga
Ditto
Doublade
Drapion
Escavalier
Golisopod
Incineroar
Lucario-Mega
Sableye @ Sablenite
Skuntank
Steelix-Mega
Chansey
3.Mewtwo-Mega-X
4.Zygarde-Complete
S-
5.Blissey
A Tier
A+
6.Groudon-Primal
7.Gengar-Mega
8.Mewtwo-Mega-Y
9.Doublade
A
10.Slowbro-Mega
11.Steelix-Mega
12.Greninja-Ash
13.Slaking
14.Regigigas
15.Necrozma-Dusk-Mane
16.Solgaleo
17.Kartana
A-
18.Deoxys-Attack
19.Diancie-Mega
20.Lunala
21.Aggron-Mega
22.Rayquaza-Mega
23.Lopunny-Mega
Not ranked within tiers past this point.
B Tier
B+
Deoxys-Speed
Metagross-Mega
Necrozma-Ultra
B
Arceus
Celesteela
Cresselia
Giratina
Giratina-Origin
Gyarados-Mega
Kyogre-Primal
Kyurem-Black
Registeel
Type: Null
Yveltal
B-
Articuno
Banette-Mega
Gardevoir-Mega
Ho-Oh
Lugia
Necrozma-Dawn Wings
Pikachu
Sceptile-Mega
C Tier
Bisharp
Blacephalon
Excadrill
Gyarados @ Gyaradosite
Heracross-Mega
Magearna
Marowak-Alola
Pheromosa
Tyranitar-Mega
Aegislash-Blade
Alakazam-Mega
Avalugg
Cloyster
Darmanitan-Zen
Groudon @ Red Orb
Shedinja
Blacklist - Do not discuss putting these on the VR
Wonder Guard:
Any pure Fire-type for their Burn Up sets.
Edit: Completely forgot to put Yveltal on the WG VR lol
Standard VR
Wonder Guard at number one: I think this may have been controversial in some earlier days of the meta, but as this format has developed I feel it's become increasingly obvious than Wonder Guard is easily better than any individual Pokemon. While it is true that every WGer (other than Audino) has major issues that hinder them individually, together they are easily better than Chansey even. The fact that teams without at least 2 Wonder Guard mons are still often defined by it more than any other aspect speaks volumes about how powerful it really is. I genuinely struggle to speak on why I made this decision since it frankly just feels obvious. Even with the ability being far worse than in gen 6 it's still Wonder Guard. > 
: As time has gone on, people have just thought more and more of Zygarde, which is entirely fair. At this point the "standard" opinion seems to have shifted into Zygarde being the 2nd best overall Pokemon behind Chansey. I disagree with this though. A large part of Zygarde getting a lot more appreciation is that Prankster itself got a lot more appreciation, and while Zyg is definitely the best overall Prankster user other Prankster users have also gotten a lot more appreciation and give Zygarde a lot of competition. Alongside this since Zygarde is the general best Prankster a lot of the meta is devoted to specifically beating Zygarde. Things like putting Ice Shard on a sweeper or Shadow Tag users that beat it are very prevalent and make using Zygarde kinda annoying since everyone is hyper-prepared for it. Contrasting that, Mewtwo-X is just about exactly as good as it's always been. While some checks like Slowbro have become more prevelant it still threatens pretty much every Pokemon with proper coverage. I believe that while MMX and Zygarde are very close, MMX is Slightly better. in 10th: This is probably my biggest divulging opinion among high tier Pokemon. I believe that Slowbro is way better than A-. With it's fantastic Slow Pivoting, amazing Physical Bulk and very good typing, Slowbro is just about the best Physical Photon check there is and similarly good against Sunsteel attackers. While people tend to gravitate to the Wonder Guard set for Slowbro, I believe it's just as good in non-WG sets as well. I've used it very effectively as Prankster, the Fur Coat set is fantastic notably walling almost every MMX set other than the occasional Moongeist and it's an effective Bounce mon too. I genuinely believe it to be better than Mega Steelix since a lot of Steelix's role has been taken over by Doublade.
in A-: Deo-A is a good mon don't get me wrong, but I really don't feel that it's on the same level as the A tier mons. The only teamstyle where Deo-A truly excells is PsySurge, outside of PsySurge it's a good Magic Guard mon but really not much else. The Magic Guard set itself is flawed too, mostly only fitting on HO or some Offense teams unlike all of the mons in A which are a lot more versitile. As menioned it's great on PsySurge, the powered up Photon and Priority immunity makes Deo-A one of the absolute best mons on PsySurge teams easily. The excellent Speed tier and great mixed attacking power is all still very good outside of Psysurge but I don't think it's good enough for an A placement. It's not on the level of Pokemon like Necrozma DM, Kartana or Slaking in A-: I don't have much to say on Aggron partially since I haven't seen it much and partially just 'cause it's kinda boring. It could and maybe should be a bit higher, but I lack the experience to say. Compared to Steelix is has a generally better defensive typing and a higher attack stat, but it's a bit less bulky and doesn't have STAB on Thousand Waves. If you're not using TWaves you'd probably prefer Aggron. It's a perfectly good mon, probably good enough for A in retrospect. Boring but effective.
in B: Not actually a controversial placement, but I'm just bringing it up 'cause I've realized since making this VR that POgre sucks and belongs in B-. I have never seen it actually do anything worthwhile when I've fought it. in B-: Dawn Wings could probably be higher than this, I have never seen it used outside of WG so I'm mostly spitballing with this placement. Being able to defensively check a lot of Photon attackers combined with solid general bulk giving it setup opportunities is still very good on a non-WG set and it's still strong with Lunalium-Z. Probably good enough for at least B in retrospect, I've given this mon more thought since I made this VR. in B- and in C: Meh, they're ok. Such a strong Shadow Sneak is good, but Banette has the issue of being forced into Band (though non-Band sets could be interesting, Marowak prob does that better) and Marowak has the issue of being too weak and Rocks vulnerable. They also just both have a lot of competition as priority attackers, unlike -Ate mons they don't get Fake Out (you can maybe use it on Marowak but it's a big sacrifice) so they can't chip down mons with it or break Sashes. I think Marowak is worse since it doesn't kill anything. Please UR this thing it does nothing. Only "worth" it on ladder where annoying people run stuff like 3 OHKO moves Deo-S, and I don't think we should rank mons based on the lowest denomenator of players. if this thing ever gets ranked I'm writing an essay on why it's terrible and never worth it and dumb.Wonder Guard VR
being so much higher than : Melo is just kinda better like 90% of the time, Guru is less bulky and has less SpAtk in return for slow pivoting, but it's still not even that good at slow pivoting. Notably being faster than the crowded 50 Speed tier. Melo is better but for how relatively low the cost of using Guru is, it can be better on some offense teams which don't mind the drop in bulk as much. in A-: I might be overrating this thing off of personal experience, I've had teams with bad matchups against this thing and it can be very scary sometimes. It's bulk is mediocre but it's typing is solid and it has good attack. It's fine I guess. in B+: I feel like opinions on Gigas are either to just rank it alongside Slaking or slap it into C tier, but I'm just really unique and different so I didn't do that. I think Slak is a very good WGer and the cost of using Gigas over Slak is very small and very occasionally worth it. Less potential for Wishpassing, dying to Innards a little easier and lower physical bulk in exchange for slightly higher special bulk. If you're having a bit of trouble with Special Photon specifically than you could maybe justify it? Idk this probably belongs in C, it's completely pointless to ever use over Slak. in B: Tbh I just didn't know where to rank it. compared to Necrozma DW the extra bulk is probably worth it occasionally on some bulkier teams but the drop in power isn't ideal. I have very little to say, it's probably usable. in B-: Similar to POgre on the standard VR, this placement isn't really weird I'm just mentioning it to say that in retrospect it belongs in C, this thing sucks.
in B-: The cooler POgre, bordering on B for me. Dying to Photon really sucks but it also isn't weak to any of the most common coverage attacks Sunsteel attackers use (other than Kartana's Grass moves), has respectable bulk and STAB on TWaves. Seems fairly underrated in my admittedly limited use of it. in C: In retrospect this should probably be UR. Having a Steel type WGer with actually good bulk that isn't weak to Fighting is cool, but needing to hold Eviolite combined with the weaknesses Ghost brings is just not good enough for me to call it justified.
This is a follow up to this VR describing a few of my more divisive / strange opinions alongside really just any elements of this VR that I felt are worth talking about. I disagree with a lot of elements of the official VR, and want a more public decryption as to why instead of just arguing on Discord.
Standard VR
Wonder Guard VR
I agree with a lot of this, and I want to share some of my thoughts as well.
While I used to think that Chansey deserved to be the highest tiered Pokemon, I'm now not completely sure. I think I would put it either at or slightly below Wonder Guard in viability. It's still the best individual Pokemon for sure, but taken as a whole against Wonder Guard I'm not sure if it can realistically be ranked higher. If you asked me in September or in the pre-ladder meta I would have happily declared it superior. Since then, however, we have started building teams primarily around ladder consistency. And this typically means running two Wonder Guard users, if you aren't running some HO shenanigans. I would also argue that Chansey was stronger then, both since its Innards Out set was everywhere and that Imposter sets just saw more usage, at least from memory (however reliable that may be). Since then I feel like Chansey has seen less usage, especially in its Innards Out set, but I still think it's the best individual Pokemon in the metagame.
Zygarde as the #2 Pokemon in the metagame is
I don't make use of non-Wonder Guard Slowbro a lot anymore. I used to use Fur Coat and Prankster a lot more, but I stopped and typically use Doublade or Mega Steelix/Aggron now. I like being immune to Toxic Spikes, taking reduced damage from Stealth Rock, and like the STAB on Anchor Shot/Spirit Shackle/Thousand Waves. There's also the fact that running Fur Coat/Prankster/Magic Bounce Mega Slowbro means I can't run Wonder Guard Slowbro effectively, which I would generally prefer. Mega Slowbro outside of Wonder Guard is perfectly fine, but I don't really end up using it. Being weak to U-turn instead of resisting it like the Steel-type Pokemon above is annoying as well, but just that: annoying. Steelix and Aggron can also take Moongeist Beam from unboosted NDW or Mega Gengar in a pinch, which is nice too. For me, it's a lot of small things that add up that make me gravitate towards other Fur Coat and Prankster users besides Mega Slowbro. And for that reason I personally consider it to be in A- rank, as realistically the only advantages it has over the Steels are that it isn't weak to V-Create or Fighting-type moves, which while a good advantage, is not worth it for me personally (especially when Doublade is immune to Close Combat and Low Kick). I definitely see the argument that it could be in A rank but I'm not very convinced myself, especially when it lacks the usage to back up its theoretical use (Prankster Slowbro was only used on 1.7% of Mega Slowbro in June, and Fur Coat not even 0.1%!).
I don't really have strong opinions on Deoxys-Attack. It's very strong on HO which I think is underrated in general, and that's all I really have to say about it.
My problem with Necrozma-Dawn-Wings is that there hasn't really been any widespread set that's been used outside of its Wonder Guard one. 96% of NDW last month used Wonder Guard, and another 2% used Innards Out (probably because they say Lunala used it), and the next used ability is Tinted Lens. Tinted Lens sounds... fine? Moongeist Beam is primary checked using various Normal-type Pokemon (Meloetta, Mega Audino, etc), but maybe it works with Moongeist Beam + Photon Geyser sets with Lunalium Z since you can smack Dark-type Pokemon with Menacing Moonraze Maelstrom? It sounds fine I guess, but not something really amazing. Parental Bond sets have been suggested before, and they sound good enough, but to my knowledge nobody has really used them. Other abilities used in past months include Psychic Surge, Simple, Prism Armor, Prankster, Dazzling, and Illusion, all of which where used vanishingly little and all of which sounds mediocre to bad (at least on first glance, I haven't used them myself). The biggest problem NDW faces, in my opinion, is there there's no stand-out ability it really seems to benefit a lot from, other than Wonder Guard which has its own separate Viability Rankings. I feel like B- or even lower is possibly justified because of this, because it has zero results outside of its Wonder Guard set due to the lack of good abilities it really uses.
Mega Banette and Alolan Marowak are kind of hard to use and kind of hard to find the right team for. However they are a complete menace when you are playing against them. Never in my day have I been more terrified than when playing against Mega Banette. Alolan Marowak is just Mega Banette except it can click multiple moves at the cost of less damage, which is a good tradeoff. They can both be in B- for me.
Meloetta and Oranguru are the same Pokemon. Oranguru is just slower in exchange for less special attack (which Meloetta barely uses anyway). Meloetta is also a little tankier I guess...? But it barely matters in the slightest. Probably the most important thing is for checking special Photon Geyser sweepers? The most important calcs for that are against Hoopa-Unbound and NDW, with the only difference in calcs being that Meloetta is 4HKOed by +2 NDW Photon Geyser and Oranguru is 3HKOed by that attack. The difference between the Pokemon is absolutely miniscule and they are almost completely interchangeable. Putting them right next to each other makes sense imo. There's not really a world where you convince me that Meloetta is better than Mega Gyarados but Mega Gyarados is better than Oranguru.
People have forgotten how scary Scizor can be, yes. Though it is less scary nowadays with all the Steelix and Doublade running amok.
Primal Kyogre and Mega Swampert have the interesting niche of resisting Sunsteel Strike but not also getting blown to bits by Moongeist Beam. Helps a lot against those niche Diancie and Primal Groudon sets that run Sunsteel Strike + Moongeist Beam. Kyogre can also do stuff with Zap Plate + Judgment and has a strong Water Shuriken for Primal Groudon as well. I've used it before and it's not bad.
Thanks for the response! I feel that I can probably clarify a few of my points here though with what you've said.
Slowbro being ranked so high is mostly based off of personal use, I found it incredibly effective when I ran it just as much as the other mons in A.
Marowak not being able to OHKO MMX is the main tipping point of me ranking it lower. It still has definite advantages, but there's also the fact that Marowak is worse defensively. Being weak to Rocks, Ground and Water is just really rough in comparison.
Tbh Guru being ranked so low was just Eyeos showing me some calcs where like MMY can 2HKO Guru at +2 and 3HKO's Melo, but idk how much else there is in that. I don't think they should be put together but the difference between the 2 of them could maybe be shortened.
And finally for Primal Kyogre, I completely disagree. Zap Plate is worthless since after a Shell Smash you just lose against Imposter, Zap Plate or not. Water Shuriken is just super mediocre on a sweeper set, it doesn't hit any big targets other than PDon for significant damage and is very rng reliant. Sure you do damage to Prankster mons but you don't do good enough damage for me to see it as remotely worth it. Unless you just really hate PDon than Water Shuriken is not worth it, and even if you do really hate PDon AshGren is better for running Shuriken since it actually outspeeds without setting up thus killing Prankster before it DBonds without needing to take a turn.
Thanks again for the response, just wanted to give my take on it all.
Edit: I felt that just saying "I used Slowbro and it was good" wasn't exactly helping my point, so I wanna expand on that. The lack of weaknesses to Fire and Fighting is insanely valuable since they're both very common offensive typings on what Slowbro wants to wall. Not only that but there's also the Ground weaknesses of other Steel types which is again incredibly common. Compared to all of the Steel types, Slowbro's weaknesses are a lot better and more manageable. Grass is annoying against Kartana but otherwise Ghost and Dark (and Electric ig) are all pretty uncommon coverage on Sunsteel/Photon attackers. They run it yeah, but compared to Fighting, Fire and Ground it's way less of an issue. Not being able to stomach a surprise Moongeist is definitely an issue yes, but I believe that it's still worth an A tier for all of it's benefits in spite of that.
Also with such great defense Slowbro just really doesn't take that much from a lot of Pokemon that run physical Ghost/Dark moves. It can tank a Pursuit or a Spectral or a Knock Off pretty well even without Fur Coat especially since the Pokemon that tend to run those are at a lower power level than the Pokemon that run Fighting/Fire/Ground. I got a lot out of using Slowbro and while I think it does face a lot of competition from Steel types who have a lot of advantages, it's advantages can be really good on a lot of teams.
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Melo bulk that matters
+2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 147-174 (36.3 - 43%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252+ SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Photon Geyser vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 164-193 (42.7 - 50.2%) -- 94.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 322-380 (79.7 - 94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 360-424 (93.7 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 302-356 (74.7 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Necrozma-Dawn-Wings Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 336-396 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 318-376 (78.7 - 93%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Gengar-Mega Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 356-420 (92.7 - 109.3%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 334-394 (82.6 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ SpA Deoxys-Attack Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO*timid is 30% chance to ohko
+2 252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Meloetta: 356-422 (88.1 - 104.4%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 SpA Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Oranguru: 398-470 (103.6 - 122.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Melo bulk does make a difference
I did forget Bug Buzz was a move that existed, to be fair, since it's uncommon. Thanks for the calcs, good to know about these. I still do not think the difference between these Pokemon is very significant, since the lower speed is generally a good trade off imo, and a lot of these fit under a relatively niche set of circumstances. Though if Bug Buzz becomes more common I will probably reconsider that.
"this ladder is incompetent"-Siphonaptera
1600 Elo With Only Deoxys
Early on into the Gen 7 PH permaladder I built a meme spam team of 6 Deoxys (all 4 forms and 2 extra Deo-As). I brought it into a few tours for the hell of it, andcheesed won a few games. I didn't ladder with it on my main for obvious reasons. After I went to top 5 ladder with my main and top 10 with my alt SussyamongusdripII this July, I wanted to ladder with another alt. I built a Psysurge HO team, but it wasn't fun to use on ladder. I still wanted to use Psysurge, but didn't have any other teams built with it.
Besides DEOXYS SPAM.
I made a new alt and proceeded to terrorize ladder for the next 3 days.
THE FINAL VERSION OF DEOXYS SPAM
Laddering
I came into laddering with a goal of reaching 1600 elo (what I consider the beginning of "high ladder") with only the Deoxys team. The first day of laddering was an easy climb to around 1400 elo, as most low ladder teams have no actual Photon Geyser switchins. Despite lacking Wonder Guards, No Guard Deoxys Speed was suprisingly uncommon and still dealt with through Focus Sash, sacking unimportant mons, and outrunning them through Scarf Deo-S. Day 2 was more challenging, as I encountered more scarf Parental Bond users (this teams worst matchup, only able to be dealt with through a suprise Choice Scarf Fissure) which basically meant an autoloss. About half of my total losses were because of PBond. Mid-ladder Evoboost spam also posed problems, especially mons that could eliminate the Deo-S threat through being faster or packing Substitute. Still, I won more games than I lost, and managed to go on a massive win streak at the end of the day to get around 1570 elo. Day 3 began with multiple losses to Parental Bond users and Evoboost spam, knocking me down to the low 1500s. However, I managed to go on a win streak once again, beating a few players in the high 1500s/low 1600s. This let me reach my goal of 1600 elo, with a winrate of over 75% and a GXE of 83.4%.
also it beat bullsht guy https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2159399214
twice https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2165018927-fjs6wi31fpjq0pkgccx8vbyjz6wcvfopw
1600 Elo With Only Deoxys
Early on into the Gen 7 PH permaladder I built a meme spam team of 6 Deoxys (all 4 forms and 2 extra Deo-As). I brought it into a few tours for the hell of it, and
Besides DEOXYS SPAM.
I made a new alt and proceeded to terrorize ladder for the next 3 days.
THE FINAL VERSION OF DEOXYS SPAM
The team is Psychic Terrain Hyper Offense, aiming to overwhelm the opposing team with STAB Psychic Terrain-boosted Photon Geysers before the team's comically abyssmal defensive profile is able to be exploited. I don't think I had a game with it that was over 25 turns, Deoxys either OHKOs or gets OHKOed.
Deoxys-Normal wouldn't be good as an offensive mon because it would be outclassed by Deo-A, so I used it as the Psysurge mon and as a hazard setter. The extra bulk actually allowed it to survive weak U-turns and other attacks that Deo-A wouldn't (deoxys normal on vr when?). Setting Psychic Terrain boosts the power of Photon Geyser and protects the team from being shut down by priority. Terrain is important to keep on the field for as long as possible, so this Deoxys carries Terrain Extender for an extra 3 turns of it. Spikes breaks enemy Focus Sashes and deals chip damage, while Sticky Web slows down threats that outrun Deo-A, like Choice Scarfers and Deo-S. Photon Geyser prevents this Deoxys from being completely passive, dealing solid damage, and Taunt can block opposing hazards and Defog. Jolly nature gives Deoxys as fast a Taunt as possible and makes Photon Geyser a physical move so it can trade with Innards Out Chansey/Blissey if needed.
The first Deoxys-Attack is a Magic Guard special attacker, which gives this team a way to get around physical walls and keep a Focus Sash mon if opposing hazards are up. Special Photon+Light of Ruin+Mind Blown provides great coverage only walled by dedicated Special Photon walls like Muk-Alola and Meloetta, which the other Deoxys on this team can take care of. Light of Ruin hits Zygarde-Complete and Dark-type Wonder Guards like Mega Gyarados, while Mind Blown hits Steel-types and can chunk MMY; both moves take no recoil thanks to Magic Guard. Shell Smash makes Deo-A even more threatening, outrunning the entire unboosted metagame and making Photon Geyser break through even resists. All Deo-As on this team have Focus Sash to survive one crucial hit, allowing them to beat mons they don't OHKO and revenge kill No Guarders, along with minimal defenses to KO opposing Imposters in one hit while living the Imposter's attack with sash.
Deoxys-Defense is this team's pivot, switching in after Deo-N sets terrain, tanking one hit to activate Eject Button for safe entry of a Deo-A, and sacking itself later on for another free switch. This team doesn't switch in to anything, it just sacks stuff instead. Magic Bounce reflects opposing hazards and status moves, punishing attempts to break the team through fast mons with sleep moves or sash-breaking hazards while applying pressure to the opposing team. Baton Pass along with minimum speed allows free slow pivoting after Eject Button is activated, Spectral Thief can remove opposing boosts, and Defog is critical for clearing hazards to keep sashes intact. Psychic Terrain is filler, but it allows Deo-D to reset terrain in endgames where Deo-N is down and there are still Atespeed users/Prankster Spore users left alive.
This team so fast-paced even Deoxys-Speed needs a Choice Scarf. (seriously, a traditional No Guard Deo-S is both too slow to serve as speed control and stalls out too many turns of terrain when breaking through Wonder Guards) Scarf Deo-S is a late-game cleaner and revenge killer that can beat some of this team's worst matchups, like opposing No Guard, Scarf Parental Bond users, and Fur Coat users. Fissure is chosen over Sheer Cold to hit Muk-Alola, a bad matchup for this team. A super-fast Destiny Bond can trade with Wonder Guard sweepers and mons behind a Substitute. At first, I used TrickScarf+Gastro Acid in the last two slots, but I found Stealth Rock and Defog more useful to control the hazard game even in the lategame, and spending two turns to break through one Wonder Guard is not worth it on a team where giving the enemy one free turn can lead to an instant loss.
CFZ spam Huge Power Deo-A is an early-game wallbreaker that can nuke almost any team with the right predictions. LTBTS OHKOs all non-Psychic resists under terrain, and the other CFZs cover those resists while still being incredibly threatening after LTBTS has been used. Sunraze KOes Muk-Alola, Hoopa-Unbound, Necrozma Dawn Wings, and Meloetta/Oranguru while serving as a second (slightly weaker) nuke. Moonraze hits Mega Slowbro, Doublade, Solgaleo/NDM, and is strong enough to OHKO many offensive mons without spending a stronger CFZ. Let's Snuggle Forever hits Zygarde-Complete, Mega Gyarados, and Ash-Greninja. A +Speed nature is used because this Deoxys already OHKOs almost the entire metagame anyways, and extra speed helps the team against opposing Deo-A and +Speed Ash-Greninja.
Shell Smash Huge Power Deo-A is a general-use attacker that can either wallbreak, clean late-game, or simply take one hit from a big threat and KO it back. Photon Geyser+Sunsteel Strike KO or deal massive damage to most Wonder Guards, while V-Create hits Steel-types. Shell Smash forces the enemy to sacrifice important resources to prevent a sweep such as Innards Out or Prankster Haze mons, or straight-up sweep lategame. It also gives Deoxys over 2000 attack and only 26 defense which is very funny.
Laddering
I came into laddering with a goal of reaching 1600 elo (what I consider the beginning of "high ladder") with only the Deoxys team. The first day of laddering was an easy climb to around 1400 elo, as most low ladder teams have no actual Photon Geyser switchins. Despite lacking Wonder Guards, No Guard Deoxys Speed was suprisingly uncommon and still dealt with through Focus Sash, sacking unimportant mons, and outrunning them through Scarf Deo-S. Day 2 was more challenging, as I encountered more scarf Parental Bond users (this teams worst matchup, only able to be dealt with through a suprise Choice Scarf Fissure) which basically meant an autoloss. About half of my total losses were because of PBond. Mid-ladder Evoboost spam also posed problems, especially mons that could eliminate the Deo-S threat through being faster or packing Substitute. Still, I won more games than I lost, and managed to go on a massive win streak at the end of the day to get around 1570 elo. Day 3 began with multiple losses to Parental Bond users and Evoboost spam, knocking me down to the low 1500s. However, I managed to go on a win streak once again, beating a few players in the high 1500s/low 1600s. This let me reach my goal of 1600 elo, with a winrate of over 75% and a GXE of 83.4%.
also it beat bullsht guy https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2159399214
twice https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7purehackmons-2165018927-fjs6wi31fpjq0pkgccx8vbyjz6wcvfopw
this team is real as hell. I had the displeasure of facing it... didn't... go so well... admittiadly I was not using a serious team but I got like 6-0ed by it.
my only real question is the deoxys defenses... that seems a bit questionable. if it were to get OHKOed you'd probably have some problems... yeah that's about all I have to say. it's stupidly broken.
Finally made a Smogon account :D
We need an update to the Setpedias (plural), and I have a silly set for Mega Banette (it's literally the set everyone uses):
Sneak Sweeper (Banette-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power / Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Shadow Sneak
- Spectral Thief
- Sunsteel Strike / Searing Sunraze Smash / Photon Geyser / Light That Burns The Sky
- Random Coverage Move
We need an update to the Setpedias (plural), and I have a silly set for Mega Banette (it's literally the set everyone uses):
Sneak Sweeper (Banette-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power / Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Shadow Sneak
- Spectral Thief
- Sunsteel Strike / Searing Sunraze Smash / Photon Geyser / Light That Burns The Sky
- Random Coverage Move
Ice shard.
Me when PsySurge (no sneak):
we're actually working on updating the setpedia right now, and we plan on including this new Banette set that has cropped up! Thanks for posting this here. We were thinking it was going to be something like:
Rkiller and Breaker (Banette-Mega) @ Choice Band
Ability: Huge Power / Pure Power
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Def / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
IVs: 0 SpA
- Shadow Sneak
- Spectral Thief
- Sunsteel Strike / Photon Geyser
- V-create / Trick
Typically I don't think CFZs are great on this set since they are one time use only. Banette likes being able to threaten Wonder Guard users like Mega Audino and Ash Greninja consistently, and by using a 1PP move it's difficult to do that. V-create is generally for bulky Steel-type Pokemon such as Mega Steelix and Doublade (V-create actually does more damage to Doublade and has a chance to OHKO). Trick is fairly self-explanatory, I think. We also considered moves like Play Rough for Pokemon like Wonder Guard Mega Gyarados. You actually don't need it for Zygarde because Spectral Thief is strong enough to 2HKO it anyway!
Do you have any thoughts on this? and also welcome to smogon :)
We also need to add Parental Bond Mega Gengar. It's casually torturing ladder.
Well, uhhhhhhhh
I run Sacred Fire in V-create's place. Silly burn chance and Ability to not be forced into a switch very silly, but V-create isn't really a bad idea (stag immunity).
I wasn't part of this conversation I know, but I saw a Let's Snuggle Forever Marowak and think that can work well on Banette as well helping to alleviate the Zygarde matchup. Play Rough might work too but idk the calcs there.
Well.... it's already on the setpedia...
It is getting an update to more accurately represent the way it's used now, though. The current set we have is:
Choice Scarf Revenge Killer (Gengar-Mega) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Parental Bond
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 252 SpA / 252 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Moongeist Beam
- Sludge Wave
- Bug Buzz / Ice Beam
- Trick / Ice Beam
Pretty straightforward moveset. Ice Beam has been used for Zygarde before, and it's quite good. Trick is obvious, too. Bug Buzz is specifically for Meloetta, and although you could theoretically use Dark Pulse or Night Daze, neither of them are as strong and they don't hit stuff like Hoopa-Unbound, either. So we chose not to include them here. We also removed Secret Sword since it doesn't really see any usage on Pbond sets, same with Searing Shot
I think Secret Sword absolutely belongs on that set too and I really don't think switching Trick for Ice Beam is worth it. Also I really don't see Sludge Wave as remotely essential, partially 'cause Sludge Bomb is also an option and partially since you may either be improofing with Audino or need that moveslot for something else (I really don't even see Sludge as the best option when Secret Sword exists)
Samples update!
The following teams are added to the samples post:
MMX + Lunala Balance by NToTheN
PBond Gengar + Bounce PDon Balance by NToTheN
Diamancie Balance by Eyeos
Anchor Shot Audino + Scarf Imposter Stall by aerobee
The following teams are removed:
Z Pdon + No Guard Greninja Offense by Bahamut and NToTheN
Power Trip Gyarados + Ice Shard Leppa MMX Balance by NToTheN
Shedinja Semistall by aerobee
As always, feel free to submit potential sample teams with reasoning and replays.
The following teams are added to the samples post:
MMX + Lunala Balance by NToTheN PBond Gengar + Bounce PDon Balance by NToTheN Diamancie Balance by Eyeos Anchor Shot Audino + Scarf Imposter Stall by aerobee The following teams are removed:
Z Pdon + No Guard Greninja Offense by Bahamut and NToTheN
Power Trip Gyarados + Ice Shard Leppa MMX Balance by NToTheN
Shedinja Semistall by aerobee
As always, feel free to submit potential sample teams with reasoning and replays.
Samples update!
The following teams are added to the samples post:
The following teams are removed:
Z Pdon + No Guard Greninja Offense by Bahamut and NToTheN
Power Trip Gyarados + Ice Shard Leppa MMX Balance by NToTheN
Shedinja Semistall by aerobee
As always, feel free to submit potential sample teams with reasoning and replays.
https://pokepast.es/21492216d160a193
Affectionately called the minefield team after a certain showdown member commented that my team "is like a freaking minefield"... I believe it should be a sample. Allow me to now explain the team. Oh and it's also the team that single handedly got me into the 1600s (check my alt Ezael_Katsukane on the ladder).
innards out lunala is the backbone of the team. It either sets up and sweeps or dies and drags the enemy mon with it using innards out. Carries secret sword for mons like slaking and arceus, though it can't ohko at +2. Also carries sludge wave for dealing with mega audino. Has safety goggles bc spore has stopped them too often.
this dude has single handedly saved multiple games. It counters all of this teams biggest threats, setup and magic guard focus sash and sticky web. More on that later. Either way this thing hits like a truck and has priority.
with scarf and pbond this guy hits really hard and can bypass non-magic guard focus sash. Menacing moonraze can even OHKO zygarde (though you may need a bit of chip damage)
huge power and choice scarf makes this thing not only strong but also fast as hell. Can bust through almost anything with the first three, though LTBTS can be used to ensure OHKO when needed
WEAKNESSES:
-sticky web slows down the scarfers and often costs you the game. Don't let webs stay up.
-magic guard focus sash. Blocks innards, hazards, pbond from OHKOing these can easily demolish the team if left unchecked. Counter with mega heracross on both of these.
Faq:
Imposter- you can pretty much just plow through it with no issues lol.
Magic guard+setup- can be deadly, again counter with heracross.
Late game setup after innards are dead- can be a problem if heracross is dead at that point, but mgar and mmx outspeed hoopa and gyarados even after shell smash, and those two are the Biggest offenders of late game setup.
As for why I think it should be a sample? Innards spam hyper offense is a legitimate Playstyle and I believe this team to be highly competent for the job of showcasing Innards spam and just the general concept of HO... as the usual HO team samples don't really showcase the core concept of HO in general. It took me... too long... to actually understand the concept. (This last point about the HO samples is mostly a personal note, so take it with a grain of salt)
Affectionately called the minefield team after a certain showdown member commented that my team "is like a freaking minefield"... I believe it should be a sample. Allow me to now explain the team. Oh and it's also the team that single handedly got me into the 1600s (check my alt Ezael_Katsukane on the ladder).
innards out lunala is the backbone of the team. It either sets up and sweeps or dies and drags the enemy mon with it using innards out. Carries secret sword for mons like slaking and arceus, though it can't ohko at +2. Also carries sludge wave for dealing with mega audino. Has safety goggles bc spore has stopped them too often. this dude has single handedly saved multiple games. It counters all of this teams biggest threats, setup and magic guard focus sash and sticky web. More on that later. Either way this thing hits like a truck and has priority. with scarf and pbond this guy hits really hard and can bypass non-magic guard focus sash. Menacing moonraze can even OHKO zygarde (though you may need a bit of chip damage) huge power and choice scarf makes this thing not only strong but also fast as hell. Can bust through almost anything with the first three, though LTBTS can be used to ensure OHKO when neededWEAKNESSES:
-sticky web slows down the scarfers and often costs you the game. Don't let webs stay up.
-magic guard focus sash. Blocks innards, hazards, pbond from OHKOing these can easily demolish the team if left unchecked. Counter with mega heracross on both of these.
Faq:
Imposter- you can pretty much just plow through it with no issues lol.
Magic guard+setup- can be deadly, again counter with heracross.
Late game setup after innards are dead- can be a problem if heracross is dead at that point, but mgar and mmx outspeed hoopa and gyarados even after shell smash, and those two are the Biggest offenders of late game setup.
As for why I think it should be a sample? Innards spam hyper offense is a legitimate Playstyle and I believe this team to be highly competent for the job of showcasing Innards spam and just the general concept of HO... as the usual HO team samples don't really showcase the core concept of HO in general. It took me... too long... to actually understand the concept. (This last point about the HO samples is mostly a personal note, so take it with a grain of salt)
Sludge wave is pretty darn nice to have... crippling audio and diancie is pretty nice. There's not a ton of reason to run bomb over wave... 5 extra power vs 20% poison chance? I'll take the power. And I agree SS deserves to be on there. Trick and ice beam are for very specific threats so I mean it depends on what you need it for.
https://pokepast.es/21492216d160a193
Affectionately called the minefield team after a certain showdown member commented that my team "is like a freaking minefield"... I believe it should be a sample. Allow me to now explain the team. Oh and it's also the team that single handedly got me into the 1600s (check my alt Ezael_Katsukane on the ladder).
WEAKNESSES:
-sticky web slows down the scarfers and often costs you the game. Don't let webs stay up.
-magic guard focus sash. Blocks innards, hazards, pbond from OHKOing these can easily demolish the team if left unchecked. Counter with mega heracross on both of these.
Faq:
Imposter- you can pretty much just plow through it with no issues lol.
Magic guard+setup- can be deadly, again counter with heracross.
Late game setup after innards are dead- can be a problem if heracross is dead at that point, but mgar and mmx outspeed hoopa and gyarados even after shell smash, and those two are the Biggest offenders of late game setup.
As for why I think it should be a sample? Innards spam hyper offense is a legitimate Playstyle and I believe this team to be highly competent for the job of showcasing Innards spam and just the general concept of HO... as the usual HO team samples don't really showcase the core concept of HO in general. It took me... too long... to actually understand the concept. (This last point about the HO samples is mostly a personal note, so take it with a grain of salt)
Another question I got asked and figured I'd answer here is the
set specifically. With HP and CB it clocks out at 1.5k atk. Shadow sneak becomes strong enough to OHKO deo a, deo s, mgar, chipped mmx and more. First impression is just STAB raw damage. Mach punch can OHKO regigigas and 2HKO slaking arceus and necrozma-DM. Defog? Couldn't find a better place to fit it on the team so hera does ok. If you aren't worried about webs at all feel free to swap it for ice shard to hit zygarde a lot harder.
https://pokepast.es/21492216d160a193
Affectionately called the minefield team after a certain showdown member commented that my team "is like a freaking minefield"... I believe it should be a sample. Allow me to now explain the team. Oh and it's also the team that single handedly got me into the 1600s (check my alt Ezael_Katsukane on the ladder).
WEAKNESSES:
-sticky web slows down the scarfers and often costs you the game. Don't let webs stay up.
-magic guard focus sash. Blocks innards, hazards, pbond from OHKOing these can easily demolish the team if left unchecked. Counter with mega heracross on both of these.
Faq:
Imposter- you can pretty much just plow through it with no issues lol.
Magic guard+setup- can be deadly, again counter with heracross.
Late game setup after innards are dead- can be a problem if heracross is dead at that point, but mgar and mmx outspeed hoopa and gyarados even after shell smash, and those two are the Biggest offenders of late game setup.
As for why I think it should be a sample? Innards spam hyper offense is a legitimate Playstyle and I believe this team to be highly competent for the job of showcasing Innards spam and just the general concept of HO... as the usual HO team samples don't really showcase the core concept of HO in general. It took me... too long... to actually understand the concept. (This last point about the HO samples is mostly a personal note, so take it with a grain of salt)
I would hate to be the person who fought this on ladder, this team is funny as hell. One suggestion I would make is to vary up the lunala coverage a bit instead of 3 identical sets, and keep them with the same nickname to bluff those new sets.
