Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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So I took the standard quaquaval set from smog on and adjusted it slightly into this meme acrobatics quaquaval set

:quaquaval:
Quaquaval @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 200 HP / 16 Atk / 180 Def / 112 Spe
Impish Nature
- Aqua Step
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Acrobatics

a quick summary:

- lures and beats pivot dragapult, whilst being able to 1v1 amoonguss, attempts by the opponents to sack their flame body Pokémon’s result in powering up your acrobatics. This set will always lose to rotom-w with or without it using will o wisp

- neutral strong flying attack allows quaquaval to hit harder against special attackers like valiant as well as giving it reliably damage against dragonite. It also makes moxie significantly more potent in the current meta when your STAB is a 110 flying type.

- has some utility against things like knock off and toxic spikes.

- due to the unusual set, there’s some situations where you can squeeze out 2+ bulk ups, and then win games

here’s a gif to demonstrate how fun it can be:


DC78F55B-E8E3-4549-9F3C-961C539DAC0D.gif

Does anyone have tips on how this can be optimized around acrobatics? I’m thinking acrobatics over brave bird due to no recoil.

I also thought about running offensive coverage for toxapex over roost. But toxapex isn’t too common recently



I’ve also been asked to share my dondozo set, as it’s definitely not standard, what are your thoughts on this variant of dondozo, it’s basically an adaptation to the meta being more geared towards bulky teams with lots of switching

the idea is that it’s in a better position to trade when it doesn’t need to rely on trying to sweep. Though sweeping is a bonus

:dondozo:
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 24 HP / 16 Atk / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Wave Crash
- Curse
- Rest

basically, you just switch into things to chip them with rocky helmet, especially u turns and rapid spins.

the idea is slowly getting your opponents utility and defensive Pokémon to be under KO thresholds, or making it difficult for a physical attacker to make progress.

you attack back with wave crash and body press to hit your most common switch ins like rotom, and get them into that critical sub 80% range.

Or you can threaten a wave crash against a great tusk that you just switched into, and it has to decide between knocking off/rapid spinning and losing 50% or switching out

here’s a gif on it sweeping almost a whole team when the stars align (forfeit at turn 46). In this case the only special attacker had fainted

B7224CD0-A5BF-4A23-B493-CAB7847A8B96.gif


—-

here’s a 1900s replay featuring MVP from the quaquaval and the dondozo

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1788469747-z390iohi6jbtpwgeljq8erkp53g7i4hpw

The quaquaval easily disposed of breloom and threatens the team, the dondozo later sweeps
 
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tip for anyone who wants reqs: if you drop a single game before you reach 20 wins, just make a new account and start over. it's more efficient
This, although the most important thing is to get as many consecutive wins as possible. So like 16-1, then 24-2, then like 30-3 is still a nice streak and will bump your GXE. Of course it's easier to win in low ladder than it is in high ladder.
 
So I took the standard quaquaval set from smog on and adjusted it slightly into this meme acrobatics quaquaval set

:quaquaval:
Quaquaval @ Lum Berry
Ability: Moxie
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 200 HP / 16 Atk / 180 Def / 112 Spe
Impish Nature
- Aqua Step
- Bulk Up
- Roost
- Acrobatics

a quick summary:

- lures and beats pivot dragapult, whilst being able to 1v1 amoonguss, attempts by the opponents to sack their flame body Pokémon’s result in powering up your acrobatics. This set will always lose to rotom-w with or without it using will o wisp

- neutral strong flying attack allows quaquaval to hit harder against special attackers like valiant as well as giving it reliably damage against dragonite. It also makes moxie significantly more potent in the current meta when your STAB is a 110 flying type.

- has some utility against things like knock off and toxic spikes.

- due to the unusual set, there’s some situations where you can squeeze out 2+ bulk ups, and then win games

here’s a gif to demonstrate how fun it can be:


View attachment 488260
Does anyone have tips on how this can be optimized around acrobatics? I’m thinking acrobatics over brave bird due to no recoil.



I’ve also been asked to share my dondozo set, as it’s definitely not standard, what are your thoughts on this variant of dondozo, it’s basically an adaptation to the meta being more geared towards bulky teams with lots of switching

the idea is that it’s in a better position to trade when it doesn’t need to rely on trying to sweep. Though sweeping is a bonus

:dondozo:
Dondozo @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Unaware
Shiny: Yes
Tera Type: Dragon
EVs: 28 HP / 12 Atk / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Body Press
- Wave Crash
- Curse
- Rest

basically, you just switch into things to chip them with rocky helmet, especially u turns and rapid spins.

the idea is slowly getting your opponents utility and defensive Pokémon to be under KO thresholds, or making it difficult for a physical attacker to make progress.

you attack back with wave crash and body press to hit your most common switch ins like rotom, and get them into that critical sub 80% range.

Or you can threaten a wave crash against a great tusk that you just switched into, and it has to decide between knocking off/rapid spinning and losing 50% or switching out

here’s a gif on it sweeping almost a whole team when the stars align (forfeit at turn 46). In this case the only special attacker had fainted

View attachment 488261
i was contemplating rocky helmet dozo for a long time but i ultimately decided to go for cloak to help with the garg and pao matchups. maybe i'll go for helmet instead once pao gets banned, but considering how my rng has been lately, i'll most likely stick with cloak
 
i was contemplating rocky helmet dozo for a long time but i ultimately decided to go for cloak to help with the garg and pao matchups. maybe i'll go for helmet instead once pao gets banned, but considering how my rng has been lately, i'll most likely stick with cloak

the thing is that using covert cloak is defensive and doesn’t actually do anything, as the opponent switches out at little cost. it makes sense on gholdengo due to it switching into things it forces out.

Unfortunately as rest is your only recovery choice, you switching in and taking 33% from crunch is certainly in CPs favour. Next time it can 2HKO anyway if you don’t rest.

in short, you have made no progress by switching into a threat you’re checking.

Using rocky helmet is more of a counter offensive thing. For example 2 crunches from Tera dark pao might KO don dozo, tho the cost is high. Sub 75% CP is much easier to deal with for almost any team, especially if hazards are in play for it to go even lower. You also forced out a Tera for that! That can be taken advantage of.

replay against a Tera dark CP is here, this game is against one of the best players in OU.

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1787475750-qz6nuynq9y9d37tzkt126ilgjvsuiy5pw

the Tera dark CP puts massive pressure on the team, but it takes significant damage in return.

it also gives a setup opportunity for dark resists

KOing dondozo put it in range of an OHKO from HDB icicle crash from my revenger, therefore storm zone determined to switch out.

then, the banded CP is quickly brought back in for its next KO, the clodsire. He was patient to bring it on a safe stealth rock (or worst case, weak EQ or toxic), rather than trying to double switch the rotom on the “obvious” clodsire switchin.

Interestingly, even if Clodsire didn’t survive the crunch and it didn’t take the 40%, the CP would be forced out again by my revenger.
 
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Bulk up tusk is a great set. Also gz on getting reqs that fast.

So obviously pao is broken and I'll write smth up about that in the suspect folder but to be honest I realized just a couple of days ago, despite ranking it a 3 on the survey, that Garg is actually just below pao in terms of brokenness and should get banned. With covert cloak becoming common this has fallen on a lot of people's radar but I think the debacle with cloak misses the point on this mon's viability.

Garg is frankly overtuned. Salt cure is the best move in the game flat out, especially on a fat mon. Dealing 12% per turn normally is already really good as well as dealing regular damage, meaning with garg's good attack that flying types just get chunked by it. However, hitting water and steels, 2 of the best defensive types in the game, for 25%/turn guaranteed is insane. Steels and waters are very commonly part of defensive structures in teams, and being able to wear down these mons that much is just too good imo. If this was all Garg had it might be fine, but Garg's kit is busted too. It gets recover, amazing bulk and a great stat distribution, and it has an amazing ability. Not being able to status Garg makes it much more difficult to wear down. You can't threaten it out with poisons, and you can't at least chip it coming in with wisp or put it to sleep. This makes garg great at just absorbing attacks and makes it much easier to come in on the field and start clicking salt cure on everything. If it was forced out by Great Tusk, maybe it'd be fine; rock is a subpar type and would let it be exploited a bit more easily. But the worst part about it can just be improved entirely thanks to tera. Now this mon gets everything; a godtier move that can force progress much harder than any mon that fat should be able to do, amazing bulk, an amazing defensive type in fairy, and an ability so good it both can't be statused and resists ghost (because why not). It also is no longer forced out by grounds, actually forcing out great tusk now because even with lefties, once it's tera fairy Garg can just stay in on Tusk and wait out the chip on Tusk, which can't really do anything against it. It can knock it, admittedly which is nice, but Garg is now extremely hard to force out and wear down because fairy only being weak to poison and steel is just too nice, and steel types can't come in on it.

Covert Cloak seems to be better than it actually is here. Really, the only thing that can reliable run cloak to force out Garg is gholdengo, because the other mons you'd want it on, like pex, dozo, and corv, either are very vulnerable to being knocked off by Tusk, the best mon in the game, or just don't do anything to it because it can't be statused. Cloak gholdengo, cloak garganacl (itself!!!) and amoonguss are the only real checks this has, and I'm not that sold on Amoonguss. Meowscarada can offensively check Tera-water, but is liable to get protected on to be scouted and switched out if its banded. This form of counterplay is extremely limiting. This is incredibly restricting on teambuilding and I'd argue deeply unhealthy. Garganacl is just too overtuned to remain OU. Hopefully we get a suspect immediately after pao and this thing can go to ubers lmao
Hello lads. I'm not going to act like my opinion is worth anything as I'm very new here, but I think this post does a wonderful job at illustrating how overwhelming Garganacl is to a metagame with numerous bans to its best offensive Pokemon.

There seemed to be a lot of complaints about how annoying Slowbro was in gen 8 as a defensive pivot that could generate offensive momentum (correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of the gen 9 love seems to stem from how much bulky water types like Slowbro/Toxapex/etc got weakened even though none of them were banned from gen 8 OU), but Garganacl has even better bulk with 100/130/90 splits - its SPD can be higher than its DEF if the former is fully invested into a positive SPD nature, while people can always run physically defensive spreads so it turns into a nigh-unmovable object on the physical side (which I think is happening in the current metagame if I have not mistaken). In exchange for future sight support, status with thunder wave/toxic as well as slow pivoting, Garganacl more than compensates for these by being an incredibly strong presence in both attack and defence: as mentioned above, salt cure allows Garganacl to chip down defensive cores like no other defensive pivot/wall can. The combination of its bulk, ability and this move forces a lot of switches, allowing it to accumulate iron defence/curse boosts that turns it into an offensive presence with strong attacks like body press and earthquake, while utility sets can use these turns to set up stealth rock, wear down defensive cores and yield a good matchup with a well-predicted switch to hopefully start breaking through the opposing team. To my inexperienced eye, this Pokemon seems to be capable of fulfilling at least two of the following roles into one set: a defensive pivot/wall with longevity, wallbreaker and hazard setter.

Is this not what generally pushes a Pokemon over the edge when it comes to banning it from OU? Top OU Pokemon that can somewhat combine such roles (e.g. Landorus-Therian, Great Tusk) do not possess the kind of longevity Garganacl has and certainly cannot snowball into the offensive threat Garganacl can become with defensive sets. Please let me know if I am getting anything wrong here:psygrump:
 
tip for anyone who wants reqs: if you drop a single game before you reach 20 wins, just make a new account and start over. it's more efficient

I had no idea this is what people have been doing, I was trying to get reqs on one singular account.

In the unlikely event that I do get reqs, I do think I'll be voting ban - it's pretty clear Chien-Pao is unbalanced and needs to go
 
I have a question, has someone tried :Greninja: rain? While it doesn't have an ability that benefits from it, the fact that is a strong water alone seems interesting, it's also a special attacker, it means that it does not compete with these :Floatzel: :Barraskewda: :Quaquaval: :Toxicroak: :Azumarill: and instead it competes with :Golduck: but Golduck needs set-up, and it's more rain dependent that Gren, who is naturally fast and strong with just specs
 
instead it competes with :Golduck: but Golduck needs set-up, and it's more rain dependent that Gren, who is naturally fast and strong with just specs
Technically it also competes with Specs Pelipper, although I personally prefer the bulkier set (if only it still had Defog...). Anyways, I came up with this team after reading your post, since I also wanted to try Gren in the Rain.
https://pokepast.es/7226f0718bf0bd7c
It's quite solid defensively as well:
Screenshot_20230131-150432_Chrome.jpg
Feel free to give your opinion if you were thinking about something else.
 
This, although the most important thing is to get as many consecutive wins as possible. So like 16-1, then 24-2, then like 30-3 is still a nice streak and will bump your GXE. Of course it's easier to win in low ladder than it is in high ladder.
Meanwhile, me down at 1100-1200, struggling to win at times...
Really don't want to make another account just to flood the servers with my garbage lmao.
 
meanwhile, me on my attempt number 20: :worrywhirl:
suspects been up for like 3 days how the hell did you burn through that many alts already??

regardless, how are people feeling about amoongus right now? I havent seen much discussion on it which seems weird to me given how much stuff it checks, imo its a great pivot for bulky offense with spore giving tons of good switchin opportunities but I'm curious what other people think of it
 
suspects been up for like 3 days how the hell did you burn through that many alts already??

regardless, how are people feeling about amoongus right now? I havent seen much discussion on it which seems weird to me given how much stuff it checks, imo its a great pivot for bulky offense with spore giving tons of good switchin opportunities but I'm curious what other people think of it
Honestly, with the team I've been piloting, my only issue is with Spore (as it has been for a while now.) Haven't had much trouble with it, aside from it just being annoying with Regenerator + Spore. Gotta let one of my mons sleep since I don't have a Spore blocker on the team right now.
 
Iron Moth @ Booster Energy
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Flying
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Agility
- Sludge Wave
- Fiery Dance
- Hurricane

This is the same Agility set that Iron Moth uses but with Hurricane and Tera Flying instead.

This set allows to outplay Ground type moves by baiting the foe to use a Ground type on Iron Moth. Also it allows to guarantee a OHKO on Pelipper and Amoonguss (useless if they're specially defensive) While not minding the halved power of Fiery Dance in Rain.

252+ SpA Quark Drive Tera Flying Iron Moth Hurricane vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Pelipper: 364-429 (112.6 - 132.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Quark Drive Tera Flying Iron Moth Hurricane vs. 252 HP / 84 SpD Amoonguss: 590-696 (136.5 - 161.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 
Honestly, with the team I've been piloting, my only issue is with Spore (as it has been for a while now.) Haven't had much trouble with it, aside from it just being annoying with Regenerator + Spore. Gotta let one of my mons sleep since I don't have a Spore blocker on the team right now.
Have you considered running Gholdengo, Garganacl or Hatterene?
 
suspects been up for like 3 days how the hell did you burn through that many alts already??
You won't believe how bad at the game I can be (fr tho, I'm at attempt 3)
echnically it also competes with Specs Pelipper
Thanks to gren being here and golduck being discovered, peli does not need to run offense again, honestly, I'm mad at gamefreak for taking defog off peli, but still let him keep knock off, wtf man, its a fucking bird you morons
 
With the almost inevitable ban of cp I thought it would be neat to discuss potential benefactors. A big one I think that can put in work right now even is iron jugulis.

Iron Jugulis @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Quark Drive
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe
Timid Nature
- Hurricane
- Earth Power
- Dark Pulse
- U-turn

I've been using this set and a lot of teams don't like switching into it, you're gonna want some extra power potentially but the coverage is enough to pressure what seems like the standard now. I've paired it with skeledirge to decent success. Definitely needs a more aggressive play style to really take advantage of it's strengths though.
 
Okay I knoqw that Flareon was historically known to have a horrible movepoo and just being bad in general, but it gained Trailblaze this generation (Lost Superpower though), which allows it to not only be able to hit Water-Types and Ground Types hard, but also grab a speed boost in the process. Also Tera Normal Guts-boosted Facade might be a bit niche
 
Okay I knoqw that Flareon was historically known to have a horrible movepoo and just being bad in general, but it gained Trailblaze this generation (Lost Superpower though), which allows it to not only be able to hit Water-Types and Ground Types hard, but also grab a speed boost in the process. Also Tera Normal Guts-boosted Facade might be a bit niche
are you just going to run through every eeveelution till you get them all blacklisted
 
Okay I knoqw that Flareon
No, stop, you're arrested against crimes against humanity, if you dare to blacklist sylveon i swear to god im not gonna invite you to my birthday party :changry:

To stop being this a one-liner, how do you guys felt the impact gren is causing, honestly, specs grass knot, hydro, dark pulse and ice beam is kinda nuts, and I love it, honestly, i think gren is gonna make special walls have a second mon in the back to pivot back and forth
 
At what point do we pass a warning when the same user keeps doing this stuff?

On actual discussion, who do you think are the main beneficiaries of, if not the absence of Chien-Pao itself, the shift in a meta without him (so the Tauros forms leaving, a lot less weight on Dondozo, and lowering the "top" speed benchmark a bit)?
 
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