Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

All your base are belong to us said:
its crazy how palafin actually kinda fell off a bit since launch, to the point we are testing it and that it might stay

Encore waterpon actually sounds like a pretty good answer to its most snowbally set in bulk up, and at least we know that banded while super nuclear isn't even hard to answer shockingly.

Mixed sets seem okay but physical bulk up overall seems best, reminds me of nasty plot darkrai but actually more consistent at snowballing and doesn't just die half the time like darkrai does. (Trick or status spreader darkrai feels the most consistent.)


Maybe Blunder and Joey were onto something with Palafin



Also on a different I hope my name and title get reverted soon since the mystery box will wear off
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First off the band problem is why I am advocating for life orb right now :D

Second off if Palafin is truly not broken which is kind of seeming like it for the moment maybe this is a sign that looks can be deceiving and maybe we should consider what other stuff from ubers could be brought down. I am personally still hoping for solgaleo but whatever happens (except lugia) I am open to it.

Edit: I forgot to mention we also dropped darkrai and deoxys speed down to ou and tho it did result in the ban of sleep (something I am still pissed about btw) both pokemon were perfectly fine so that also sets a precedent.
 
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30 games in using Palafin, and my initial impression is that the dolphin is really good. Specifically been running Bulk Uo Three Attacks:

Palafin-Hero @ Punching Glove
Ability: Zero to Hero
Tera Type: Fire
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Jet Punch
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
- Bulk Up

Punching Glove not a bad item on this guy. Being able to avoid Rocky Helmet/Rough Skin chip is really nice on top of the additional boost in power to Jet Punch. It could just be low elo, but it's funny how overprepared people are for Palafin. Ogerpon-W everywhere, teams now hosting multiple hard water resists, I've seen a Vaporeon. Reminds me a lot of both Dracovish and Walking Wake in how people are packing as much Water resist/immunity as possible. Don't have reqs yet so I don't have a solid DNUB or UB vote yet so we'll see if Palafin is more like Dracovish or Walking Wake.
 
DaddyBuzzwole said:
ah. well then yeah, palafin does hit harder, but we gotta put a really big asterisk on that statement because miraidon has other advantages that make comparing the two not very useful—namely, it sets its own terrain and has base 135 speed. something like chi-yu or gouging fire, which have similar speed tiers to palafin (chi-yu's is exactly the same actually) and require support to set up weather, is a more fair comparison. just comparing big calc numbers without context can be counterproductive—alolan golem can hit harder than any of these clowns by a country mile and it's garbage anyway

needless to say, it's very troubling that comparing palafin with chi-yu and gouging fire is even a fair comparison to make in the first place, but we do have to factor in that we have an extremely splashable water immunity in the tier, while we didn't have an extremely splashable fire immunity to deal with the other guys. that makes banded palafin's nuke moves a lot more of a risky click on average, which is why i don't consider it as important a factor in palafin's likely brokenness as those other two choice sets are

true, but the eterrain boost is much smaller than a weather boost (1.3x vs 1.5x) and that's why specs miraidon doesn't nuke things quite as hard as the big scary calcs that involve weather. also because those calcs for miraidon are usually using a 100-power electro drift while chi-yu's and gouging fire's and palafin's calcs use 120- or 130-power moves (sometimes 110 if you go for fire blast on chi-yu), and that makes a deceptively big difference in damage output
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I feel that choiced calcs should almost be disregarded when evaluating potential brokenness of a mon. In general out of context calcs in ideal situations don't represent actual in-game dynamics as many have said in the past, but I think another reason "big number = broken" is not sound logic is because of how easy it is to exploit choice items in this gen. Between Tera as well as the popularity of Gliscor Protect, punishing choice lock is something almost any pokemon can do and it forces the choice user to give up a lot of momentum
 
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Haven’t been able to play that many games but I’ve been cooking with this sub punch set. It can 2hko max hp raging bolt at +0 and does 80-94% to ogerpon at +0. Still figuring out if HP investment is needed and what tera to use but I decided on ghost for free setup on corv and zama.
 
what people forget about a mon's brokenness is

yeah sure, BU palafin loses to waterpon, rillaboom, raging bolt, serperior, mola, etc

but what about the structures that can't fit these mons?

what do they do?

people are so quick to counter palafin that they forget the meta formed around palafin. yet another teambuilding restriction is fine because you can handle it in a vacuum.

i'm disappointed by the smogon community's more recent reactions to palafin.
 
For once, RV is right. There’s basically no way to switch into Palashit outside of a Water Absorb mon as even resists can be either OKOed outright or heavily chipped, and that’s assuming that they don’t get cleaned up by Jet Punch next turn. Teraing the bastard is usually a safe option as a result of it’s sheer power which allows you to muscle through even full HP resists. Much like Gliscuck, people are also ignoring the fact that the things that can counter it are also pretty mid. Bringing back Serperior of all mons is a pretty clear sign that this is not going to work.

Bringing back Palafin is a fun little experiment, but people seem to forget that experiments can fail, sometimes catastrophically. This is the online equivalent of a middle school chemistry lab’s Bunsen burner exploding and the teacher saying that everything was okay because the kids that were closest to the flame weren’t knocked unconscious.
 
RainebowValiant said:
what people forget about a mon's brokenness is

yeah sure, BU palafin loses to waterpon, rillaboom, raging bolt, serperior, mola, etc

but what about the structures that can't fit these mons?

what do they do?

people are so quick to counter palafin that they forget the meta formed around palafin. yet another teambuilding restriction is fine because you can handle it in a vacuum.

i'm disappointed by the smogon community's more recent reactions to palafin.
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What team structures can't fit one of an extensive list of the most splashable mons in OU?

Fewer threats in the team builder is a fair argument, but I don't really see why Palafin should pay the price for that. There is a solid chance that Palafin is weaker than Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Waterpon etc. In which case why should it be banned instead of one of them?
 
RainebowValiant said:
what people forget about a mon's brokenness is

yeah sure, BU palafin loses to waterpon, rillaboom, raging bolt, serperior, mola, etc

but what about the structures that can't fit these mons?

what do they do?

people are so quick to counter palafin that they forget the meta formed around palafin. yet another teambuilding restriction is fine because you can handle it in a vacuum.

i'm disappointed by the smogon community's more recent reactions to palafin.
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I think initially saying it's broken is jumping the gun, like palafin is most certainly really good but it's a bit early, and despite answers not overlapping, they do seem to exist. (It has more answers than Kyurem objectively speaking, but that isn't a high bar at all since Kyurem is busted as is and dodged a near ban twice.) Tera is probably where things get dumb but I cannot call palafin broken yet.

I don't like jumping the gun, like with Gouging Fire I could not tell for the life of me if it was broken or fine until it was broken due to all the set variety and innovations

I think I want to observe how Palafin adapts with tera before I decide
 
TurquoiseLink said:
What team structures can't fit one of an extensive list of the most splashable mons in OU?

Fewer threats in the team builder is a fair argument, but I don't really see why Palafin should pay the price for that. There is a solid chance that Palafin is weaker than Roaring Moon, Kingambit, Zamazenta, Waterpon etc. In which case why should it be banned instead of one of them?
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balances typically don't run any of those mons except rarely bolt and pon, and more commonly mola. what do molaless balances do? die in a hole?

same issue i have with kyurem tbh. i dont wanna run gking, spdf corv, AV crown, n shit on everything. it makes building a worse experience.
 
Seraphyde said:
Bringing back Serperior of all mons is a pretty clear sign that this is not going to work.
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I'm getting rather funny flashbacks to when everyone was clamoring how Darkrai was undeniably mid and would drop down to RU lol

I feel like people are heavily prepared for Palafin at the moment, but if you're fitting on like 2 to 3 fucking Palafin answers that opens up your team massively to literally every other heavy team building threat that still sits in the meta. Gambit for example LOVES when something else takes the heat for it, or Raging Bolt, etc. I feel like this is going to absolutely result in ppl underestimating its impact > meta shifts to a more 'normal' state > "Uh oh preparing for Palafin and its new squad of bullshit is hard wtf" > we argue for 6 months while asking for Volc to come back (this will check Palafin with flame body and Tera grass for real this time)

Ofc a mon will seem weaker than anticipated if half the slots on a team are dedicated to checking it. But that just means the 5 other mons on a Palafin team can be built around "we're going to take you out back and soften you up till our dolphin pal here gets his turn" which has been more often than not what I have been seeing. Is it Bloodmoon levels of busted? absolutely not, but I can see this stupid fish spiraling as people realize needing to have answers for Gambit, Zama, and Palafin all on the physical side is a really hard answer as it is.
 
Rekka's Backend said:
I'm getting rather funny flashbacks to when everyone was clamoring how Darkrai was undeniably mid and would drop down to RU lol

I feel like people are heavily prepared for Palafin at the moment, but if you're fitting on like 2 to 3 fucking Palafin answers that opens up your team massively to literally every other heavy team building threat that still sits in the meta. Gambit for example LOVES when something else takes the heat for it, or Raging Bolt, etc. I feel like this is going to absolutely result in ppl underestimating its impact > meta shifts to a more 'normal' state > "Uh oh preparing for Palafin and its new squad of bullshit is hard wtf" > we argue for 6 months while asking for Volc to come back (this will check Palafin with flame body and Tera grass for real this time)

Ofc a mon will seem weaker than anticipated if half the slots on a team are dedicated to checking it. But that just means the 5 other mons on a Palafin team can be built around "we're going to take you out back and soften you up till our dolphin pal here gets his turn" which has been more often than not what I have been seeing. Is it Bloodmoon levels of busted? absolutely not, but I can see this stupid fish spiraling as people realize needing to have answers for Gambit, Zama, and Palafin all on the physical side is a really hard answer as it is.
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Fantastic take.

No words, just read this.
 
Rekka's Backend said:
I'm getting rather funny flashbacks to when everyone was clamoring how Darkrai was undeniably mid and would drop down to RU lol

I feel like people are heavily prepared for Palafin at the moment, but if you're fitting on like 2 to 3 fucking Palafin answers that opens up your team massively to literally every other heavy team building threat that still sits in the meta. Gambit for example LOVES when something else takes the heat for it, or Raging Bolt, etc. I feel like this is going to absolutely result in ppl underestimating its impact > meta shifts to a more 'normal' state > "Uh oh preparing for Palafin and its new squad of bullshit is hard wtf" > we argue for 6 months while asking for Volc to come back (this will check Palafin with flame body and Tera grass for real this time)

Ofc a mon will seem weaker than anticipated if half the slots on a team are dedicated to checking it. But that just means the 5 other mons on a Palafin team can be built around "we're going to take you out back and soften you up till our dolphin pal here gets his turn" which has been more often than not what I have been seeing. Is it Bloodmoon levels of busted? absolutely not, but I can see this stupid fish spiraling as people realize needing to have answers for Gambit, Zama, and Palafin all on the physical side is a really hard answer as it is.
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This is exactly what I am saying, I just want to see how things play out with tera funny stuff and whatnot and how things shape around it before deciding whether its broken or not because I really cannot tell with how prepped teams are
 
All your base are belong to us said:
This is exactly what I am saying, I just want to see how things play out with tera funny stuff and whatnot and how things shape around it before deciding whether its broken or not because I really cannot tell
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ultimately yeah this is my stance, I feel like its still obviously a bit early but the trejectory I'm getting doesn't feel good. People are super prepared for it right now, but even building with this thing in mind it feels like a headache due to the fact it has 5 buddies that can be all of their own nightmares to contend with. Palafin itself obviously feels great to use, way *too* great for my liking, but half of my current wins right now have been due to the fact that everyone is so prepared for Palafin they've collectively forgotten every other toptier in the same girth. And any Palafin weak teams I've run into outside of that I've just run over with it. Idk, its no Bloodmoon but its definitely something that feels like a new boss just landed in real time

darkmoonbeam said:
At least the mons that help fight against it are also just actually good in general, unlike the whole Dracovish Seismitoad situation way back.
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Honestly yeah this also helps, I feel like if the answers were 'worse' it'd be an instant ban. I feel like due to the fact Zama does exist along with Wpon makes it a lot more bearable, but it doesn't feel like something that should be as it is if that makes sense? Iunno, I'll keep ruminating but I kinda hate it and love it at once for good and bad reasons.
 
Honestly don’t know why Palafin is being retested.
It was one of the earliest bans and for good reason. It’s Water type Slaking/Regigigas with a significantly more managable hindering ability (by that I mean basically Slaking with Illuminate or Honey Gather).
The only difference now is that Ogerpon Wellspring is in the meta now and that’s hardly a counter when you know it has this thing called coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 194-229 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Palafin-Hero: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Keep in mind this is the CB set and not the Bulk Up set. It can survive a Horn Leech without investment or +1 Def or Tera. And btw Close Combat OHKOs anyways.)
Also consider thar it kind has less counters now because Sleep moves are banned and by extention Amoongus is now kind of poopy.
 
Cuddly said:
Also consider thar it kind has less counters now because Sleep moves are banned and by extention Amoongus is now kind of poopy.
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Last post for today but I want to say Vileblume with Rocky Helmet kinda fucks hard right now. Throw on Leech or Toxic and then you can repeatedly come in on it or force it out as BU+3A is the most popular rn. Idk the calcs for rain but thats what Wpon will be for anyways.
 
From my testing my favorite set is Boomburst Life Orb. It 2HKO even Alomomola with it and can also run Grass Knot against Dondozo.
4 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Alomomola: 256-302 (47.9 - 56.5%) -- 85.9% chance to 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 335-395 (66.4 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Life Orb Palafin-Hero Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 204+ SpD Garganacl: 190-226 (47 - 55.9%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

This set however definitely needs Healing Wish / Wish support.
 
Cuddly said:
Honestly don’t know why Palafin is being retested.
It was one of the earliest bans and for good reason. It’s Water type Slaking/Regigigas with a significantly more managable hindering ability (by that I mean basically Slaking with Illuminate or Honey Gather).
The only difference now is that Ogerpon Wellspring is in the meta now and that’s hardly a counter when you know it has this thing called coverage.
252+ Atk Choice Band Palafin-Hero Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 194-229 (64.4 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Horn Leech vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Palafin-Hero: 284-336 (83.2 - 98.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(Keep in mind this is the CB set and not the Bulk Up set. It can survive a Horn Leech without investment or +1 Def or Tera. And btw Close Combat OHKOs anyways.)
Also consider thar it kind has less counters now because Sleep moves are banned and by extention Amoongus is now kind of poopy.
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How do you plan to fit Zen Headbutt (and why, when CC is much better)? It already needs Jet Punch and Wave Crash to be such a potent breaker, dropping Flip Turn is non negotiable on Band also.

Banded Fin is very vulnerable to hazards and protect mons, to say nothing of defensive Teras upsetting its momentum. Add in the wave crash recoil and it’ll risk running out of steam if the user isn’t careful. Not to mention that yes, it’s bulk is honestly excellent for something so strong and solidly fast, but Banded sets aren’t switching into much of anything as that just further compromises its limited longevity, ESPECIALLY with hazards digging into it. You have to be pretty aggressive getting Banded Fin in to maximize the damage it can do, and I don’t think that’s necessarily unhealthy. Needing to play well to get mileage out of it sounds rather skillful.

I think the variants of BU are the more potent variants and there are more than a couple going around (Cloak for Garg, Encore for easy set up on recovering mons, there were some Acrobatics ones I faced while laddering for reqs). For that reason I’d love to hear what others think about the BU sets and what kind of counter play you think there is to them.
 
Why is everyone discussing testing an Uber I'm literally getting anxiety right now
Jk
But. I've been playing a lot today. I dont feel like my team is overprepared. I have zapdos zamazenta and meow for it. Pretty standard OU prior to dolphin right?

Hardest thing is the wave crashes. But it does recoil, might catch static. Does not feel overbearing. Have cleaned up some games with my own cb jet punch though.

Share replays of masterful bulk up sweeps if you have them

There was a post in a policy review thread where it was discussed at some length unbanning a centralizing mon in an effort to centralized the game. Could palafin fill such a role that makes the game >better< if it's not toooo bad itself? Could this be "necessary" rn
 
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My team has Dragapult, Alomomola, Wisp Darkrai, Hydrapple lol. This was just the team I already had built, nothing to do with Palafin, but it ended up being a perfect cteam to basically every possible set. WispRai could even run a water-resisting tera if you want. Don’t forget that Dragapult (extremely splashable) owns Palafin. Hydrapple avoids the Wave Crash 2HKO even in rain. Tera Water Lando is another pretty good check, also Water Garg. Grass Moltres. Get creative guys!
 
I haven’t participated in a suspect test since the Ursaluna-Bloodmoon test, and I don’t plan to grind for reqs this time around. I just wanted to throw out my opinion that Palafin is not broken in the current meta.

Palafin’s coverage is straight up terrible. It only has Water STAB and its only way of hitting bulky waters super effectively is with Grass Knot, which sucks to use on a physical attacker (Palafin does admittedly have alright special attack, but nothing broken)

Now, when SV first released, the meta was much less bulky. It could get away with only having Water STAB because it could just power through its resists. Palafin can’t really do that anymore outside of rain, and its not unique in that regard.

It doesn’t really invalidate any teamstyle either. HO teams can punish teams trying to set up ZtH. BO will like using it itself and can check its STAB w/ Waterpon. Balance teams can pivot around it with Mola, chip it with hazards, or use other miscellaneous resists like Kyurem. Even stall and fat teams always run Dondozo regardless of Palafin.

When people like blunder threw around the idea of testing Palafin I was skeptical at first, but seeing it in practice makes me think that its fine probably. Although, it is early to say for certain, as others have pointed out.
 
Chilln0 said:
I haven’t participated in a suspect test since the Ursaluna-Bloodmoon test, and I don’t plan to grind for reqs this time around. I just wanted to throw out my opinion that Palafin is not broken in the current meta.

Palafin’s coverage is straight up terrible. It only has Water STAB and its only way of hitting bulky waters super effectively is with Grass Knot, which sucks to use on a physical attacker (Palafin does admittedly have alright special attack, but nothing broken)

Now, when SV first released, the meta was much less bulky. It could get away with only having Water STAB because it could just power through its resists. Palafin can’t really do that anymore outside of rain, and its not unique in that regard.

It doesn’t really invalidate any teamstyle either. HO teams can punish teams trying to set up ZtH. BO will like using it itself and can check its STAB w/ Waterpon. Balance teams can pivot around it with Mola, chip it with hazards, or use other miscellaneous resists like Kyurem. Even stall and fat teams always run Dondozo regardless of Palafin.

When people like blunder threw around the idea of testing Palafin I was skeptical at first, but seeing it in practice makes me think that its fine probably
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stall is absolutely not fine with palafin, dondozo straight up loses to it and people in stallcord are coming up with shit like tentacruel to counter it. mola also straight up just gives it free turns to set up.
 
TheColorRed said:
stall is absolutely not fine with palafin, dondozo straight up loses to it and people in stallcord are coming up with shit like tentacruel to counter it. mola also straight up just gives it free turns to set up.
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mola can scald and dozo can run helmet. also tspikes/general hazards. that’s what i think. also sinistcha stall has been done before and helmet pex could be an option too maybe
 
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