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Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion
- Thread starter Merritt
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Merritt I don't think the Badge boosts matter for this match-up since I calc'd Sceptile's median damage against Sealeo 1 to be around ~60% (I'm too lazy and tired to crunch more numbers so please correct me if I'm wrong). Sceptile could theoretically avoid getting OKHO's by 2's Blizzard with the extra 10% SpD (min damage was ~104% or something), but potential Hail chip makes it a moot point.
It's not as moot as people think, although lack of adequate grass STAB holds it back for a few of the battles where it might have stood a chance and does better in ORAS (Brawly, Wattson).
Sceptile should have plenty of EVs and Giga Drain by the time it faces Glacia, and in my experience the Sealeo aren't quite able to OHKO which actually leaves Sceptile in overgrow range to grant the KO against Walrein. Between damage rolls on Leaf Blade, questionable triggering of overgrow, and the inaccuracy of Blizzard I would actually call Walrein vs. Sceptile a draw.
The Torchic line has the highest SpA of the Hoenn starters btw.
Sceptile should have plenty of EVs and Giga Drain by the time it faces Glacia, and in my experience the Sealeo aren't quite able to OHKO which actually leaves Sceptile in overgrow range to grant the KO against Walrein. Between damage rolls on Leaf Blade, questionable triggering of overgrow, and the inaccuracy of Blizzard I would actually call Walrein vs. Sceptile a draw.
The Torchic line has the highest SpA of the Hoenn starters btw.
It can learn bullet seed from a TM pretty early, which lets it stand a chance against Brawly in RS (his Makuhita knows vital throw in E) and Wattson in E (his Magneton is higher leveled in RS).
Sceptile learns giga drain two ways. One requires not evolving it until level 41, which pretty much makes it useless for half of the game. The other way requires using a one-time TM that's better taught to Tentacruel because of its otherwise lack of water coverage. Leaf blade is enough for in-game purposes.
Yeah, I was wrong.
To be honest with you, I find it hard to believe. While you are using unreliable NVE move, Wattson is healing his Pokemon with Potions and paralyzing you.
I've used Grovyle before to beat Wattson before on Ruby, and it needed me to level it up to L29 (when it learns Leaf Blade) at which point it slices through him and everything else nicely (even considering that it's a NVE move). It is possible within reason to get it up there before facing Wattson, what with all the trainers around Mauville from all four directions...but the catch is that it requires a fair bit of dedication and Grovyle sucking the EXP from anything else you'd like to be training at that point. It's not the worst in terms of time/EXP sinks, it's definitely usable and the payoff isn't a one-time thing because once Grovyle gets LB it wrecks - but I wouldn't describe it as efficient at all.
Who said Tentacruel has to be on our team anyway?
It's taken more along the lines of Giga Drain TM having a cost of use, namely that other pokemon would really appreciate being able to use it, especially when Sceptile already has Leaf Blade to use, so Sceptile relying on Giga Drain is a point against it.
It's a 60 BP move. Mons whose special attack stat is already very low can do very little with it. Tentacruel is one example of such, not getting any STAB boost from it.
Sceptile needn't rely on the move at all since Leaf Blade will hit harder, as you yourself said. But recovery without items can be nice. There should generally be no competition for this move unless you're training a second grass-type (why?) or using a really low-tier mon like Beautifly. It's not a case like Dig in RBY or Earthquake in FR/LG.
Sceptile needn't rely on the move at all since Leaf Blade will hit harder, as you yourself said. But recovery without items can be nice. There should generally be no competition for this move unless you're training a second grass-type (why?) or using a really low-tier mon like Beautifly. It's not a case like Dig in RBY or Earthquake in FR/LG.
Giga Drain allows Tentacruel to take on the variety of water types that it walls out quite effectively, especially if Sludge Bomb (another contested TM) was given to somebody else. It's a coverage move, it's not like it's a main STAB. Hell you could even make the argument that even with STAB it's not very strong in Sceptile's hands, since even accounting for the STAB boost it's only roughly the equivalent of a 90 BP move.
Giga Drain is also useful for Pokemon like Shiftry who otherwise doesn't even get a grass STAB, Seviper who appreciates the coverage, Masquerain who is somewhat starved for special attacking moves, and the other potential learners of the move who enjoy having an option to take on the glut of Water-types Hoenn has in its lategame.
Crobat is obviously not the most defensive Pokemon, but it's bulky enough to take 2-3 hits from most like-level opponents. This allows it to take big chunks out of Elite Four teams, even when it doesn't know sludge bomb. The fact that not a single Elite Four Pokemon resists flying also helps a lot. Zubat is good enough for B tier.
As for Groudon and Kyogre, I still think they have a good reason to move down. In RSE, there's a series of almost back-to-back major battles starting on Mt. Chimney and ending at the hideout at Lilycove City. Missing out on those battles is missing out on a lot.
You still need to remember that almost every E4 member has some way to deal with Crobat. Glacia is self-explanatory. Phoebe has 2 Banette (one with W-o-W and the other with Psychic&Thunderbolt) as well as 2 Dusclops (one with Curse and the other with Ice Beam). Drake has simply better Pokemon (and some of them can boost via DD to outspeed you).
Kyogre and Groudon shouldn't drop. They're still around for the last Gym, Wally, and the League, where they both put in work (though Kyogre's match-ups are a bit better). Kyogre is also the most efficient Drake answer since it gets Ice Beam naturally, so there's no need to backtrack for the TM or rely on Blizzard.
Curse isn't very threatening if you simply switch out every time you get cursed, and Banette's special attack is too low to do a lot of damage with thunderbolt or psychic. Drake's Altaria and Flygons are a bit reliant on ground attacks for dealing damage, so Crobat beats them despite the fact that they're "simply better". Also, something can be B tier even if it's threatened by a third of the Elite Four, right? I don't suppose Pelipper or Linoone can sweep them either.
Calculations:
Pelipper and Linoone are not shitmons AND help greatly thanks to their ability to learn HMs (the former having good Fly+Surf combo and the latter having access to 4 HMs). I am not going to compare Pokemon or say that Crobat is not worthy of B rank but I will say bullshit whenever I see one. Crobat can't beat up E4 Pokemon with ease (outside of half of Sydney's Pokemon).
I never said Crobat can beat them with ease, just that it can help a lot. Is that not enough for B tier?
Both of these Pokemon are horrible comparisons to Zubat, because unlike the virtual dead weight of Zubat early on, these two Pokemon are capable of dominating earlygame well into midgame, either through their prowess in battle (Wingull) or their utility (Zigzagoon). Note the only Zigzagoon in B tier is the RS one.
The reason Zigzagoon gets a split in RS vs E is because of pickup's stupidly powerful mechanics in RS. Yes, you're reading that right, it's a 10% chance even at base level to get Ultra Balls, Revives, Full Restores, Nuggets, and Rare Candies. Screw DPP's Bidoof, RS Zigzagoon is arguably the single greatest utility mon to exist for not only being able to cover multiple extremely useful HMs, but also relieve money concerns enough that it's entirely conceivable that on your first visit to Mauville you'll be able to get enough money to buy more than one of the extremely powerful TMs in the game corner. It's not good in battle extremely fast (as fast as Poochyena falls off honestly), but it more than makes up for it with utility.
Wingull meanwhile is a perfectly acceptable Flying type earlygame, due to a fairly early Wing Attack and an immediate Water type STAB, which carries it well through earlygame. Because of actually having attacking options, Wingull is much more likely to actually gain levels than the slow and extremely painful to level Zubat, most of the time pushing it to evolution before Zubat even makes it to Wing Attack. As Pelipper it of course does extremely well vs Flannery, and then Protect allows Pelipper to blunt a lot of Norman's threat. After that Surf helps bring the flagging Pelipper back up a bit to provide some contributions due to its workable Special Attack in battles, particularly with the likely level jump it has on newcomers due to how useful Wingull's been for basically the entirety of the game up to this point. Around Tate and Liza Pelipper's best considering replacement, although it can certainly still help out as a moderately strong Surf spammer and Fly/Surf utility, but considering that for almost the entire first half of the game Wingull manages to be one of the best Pokemon available, taking on and being a massive contributor to every gym except Wattson, Wingull definitely earns its B ranking as well despite an inability to contribute lategame in a meaningful fashion.
This person probably explains this better than I do.
This is why I think Zubat can be B tier even though it's nothing but an experience sink until it reaches level 22.
No offense to pika pal but I found that argument unconvincing the first time I read it and still don't think it's particularly good. Must be the Jagen thing, since "Jagens are exp hogs" is a meme on par with Donphan in Gen 5 OU. As a barely related side note, a huge number of "competitive" players agree that Jagens are very good on efficient runs for Fire Emblem, since they're certainly much faster to use than attempting to train your generally weaker units, especially when most games give you stronger units later on.
Similarly, in that argument there's a very good case to be made that a Pokemon that clears those first 6 gyms easily and then falls off coincidentally right around the same time that you get those no-real-investment-needed Pokemon like Palkia and Azelf who can clear the rest of the game is actually an absolutely amazing Pokemon, because it gets you where you need to be with excellent efficiency and despite falling off does so at a time that new Pokemon immediately pick up the slack.
This is, of course, not the case for Zubat, who not only cannot contribute early but actively hurts you in attempting to use it due to draining EXP from your team until it becomes usable at level 21 and Wing Attack. In fact I'd say that there's good reason to not even bother trying to grab a Zubat from Granite Cave and instead wait to catch one until Meteor Falls. At best Zubat would only get to usable status by that point anyways, and by catching one then the rest of your team will probably be at a higher level. This does harm Zubat however, since it gets fewer EVs, will take longer to get to Crobat from Golbat, and means a later Wing Attack (probably around Mt. Chimney as opposed to around Fallarbor), but it does have merits.
To continue pika pal's Fire Emblem metaphor, Zubat would end up in the Est category (starts off weak with low bases, high growths mean that with investment they have a good chance of turning out well), and even then it's not a particularly good one, since it doesn't exactly dominate the mid-to-lategame. That's a large part of why there's that focus on how Crobat does vs lategame opponents - it sure as hell isn't doing much of anything for the earlier ones and it needs to pay off that investment you've poured into it.
Something else, again on a somewhat unrelated note, is that on those efficient FE tier lists the Est units with few exceptions end up near the bottom, with extremely few making it above the bottom half.
A more painless way to get Zubat to learn wing attack would be to catch the level 7 Zubat from Granite Cave, just keep it around for a while (to gain friendship), and start leveling it after Wattson is defeated. This way, Zubat gains experience faster and doesn't interfere as much with major battles, as there are no major battles immediately after Wattson. Sure, this is still a relatively long period of uselessness, but it's not long enough for Zubat to be C tier given how well it does against Winona, Brendan/May, the evil teams, the Elite Four, and a whole bunch of other tainers.
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As much as I like Crobat, I don’t agree with your assessment of how it fares against major trainers. Yes, it handles May/Brendan pretty easily, but I would argue that after the route 110 battle they stop being much of a threat anyway.
Winona’s Pokémon in RS, bar Swellow, are pretty physically bulky. Skarmory walls Crobat outright unless you get very lucky with confusion hax, while Pelipper and Altaria will at least trade a few blows with Crobat before going down. The matchup is improved if you went back for Sludge Bomb after beating Norman, but I don’t think Crobat’s performance is great enough here to be especially notable. Tropius and Swablu are easy pickings in Emerald, admittedly.
Crobat can put in a lot of work against the Team grunts, and does pretty well against Archie especially, thanks to his Sharpedo having an awful moveset. Mightyena’s Intimidate makes the battle a bit of a slog, though. Maxie’s Camerupt knows Rock Slide in all the later battles, which makes it a tougher fight.
It performs really well against Sidney, thanks to his team’s general frailty and the type advantage over Shiftry and Cacturne. Crobat can put in some good work against Phoebe if you taught it Shadow Ball, but otherwise it’ll really struggle. Glacia is a no-go: you have no coverage moves that hit her team hard, so you’re forced to take more super effective hits than Crobat can handle, even with its decent bulk. Each member of Drake’s team can trade at least a couple blows with Crobat, so it’s unlikely to take more than one of his Pokémon down without a significant level advantage or lots of healing. The same is true of Wallace in Emerald, although Ludicolo is a pretty safe win. Crobat faces a near-impenetrable wall with Steven’s team in RS, even factoring in all its potential coverage moves.
On the plus side, Crobat enjoys a period of ascendancy for a while after it evolves from Golbat. I also find that Crobat handles route trainers really well, on the whole. It’s also a good user of Fly, and a speedy Confuse Ray can be really helpful in lots of battles, if a little unreliable. I’m also continually surprised by how well Crobat takes hits.
Overall though, Crobat has problems, even after the painful process of raising it from a Zubat. They stem from its unimpressive Attack and its underwhelming offensive movepool. Your likely attacking options are Sludge Bomb, Fly/Wing Attack/Aerial Ace, Shadow Ball, Steel Wing and Return, coming off a 90 base Attack stat, which is good, but not great. You could teach it Giga Drain, but with its 70 base Special Attack it won’t make great use of it against any opponent apart from the Geodude or Barboach lines
Most of Crobat’s matchups are neutral, from a type perspective, and it doesn’t quite have enough power behind its moves to cut through the stronger teams in the game without super effective coverage. Even its most positive late-game match-up, Sidney, is weakened thanks to Mightyena, which will Intimidate you and then probably use Sand-Attack
Even though putting Crobat in C makes me feel a little uneasy, I don’t think I can really make a case for putting it any higher. The combination of the early-game Zubat struggle and the lack of a substantial payoff makes it difficult to justify Crobat’s usage in an efficient run. It will be a competent team member in most battles, once it evolves, but it usually can’t take on more than one or two Pokémon in any of the more difficult fights.
EDIT: Tidied this up a bit. Also Sidney’s Mightyena doesn’t know Swagger in RSE, my bad haha.
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Yeah, this isn't really that much more efficient of a strat. You still have drop what you're doing to go level grind Zubat after having it just sitting in your party contributing nothing for ~2 hours.
Also, like Cobalt Empoleon already explained, you're exaggerating Zubat's positive match-ups a bit.
I don't have to drop everything. I can just give an exp. share to the Zubat and have its teammates battle trainers. This does take experience from the rest of the team, but not any more than a B tier Pokemon, like Magikarp, Tentacool, or Electrike, would.
They're still better than Oddish's matchups. How is Zubat a whole tier lower than Oddish when Oddish's period of uselessness is only slightly shorter and the payoff is about the same?
Yeah you have the EXP Share, but Zubat is still not doing anything and you're still diverting resources. Will it even get Wing Attack before Meteor Falls if you're only feeding it via the EXP Share?
Magikarp's usefulness explodes upon evolving so it's a better investment.
Tentacool is better off being caught later since it also has movepool issues.
Electrike has a significantly shorter dead period since you can teach it Shock Wave after beating Wattson. It's not like there's a lot of competition for the move in the first place.
I have no idea what Oddish's deal is since nobody has talked about it in this thread or the previous one. Oddish can drop for all I care.
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