Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

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Karxrida said:
I have no idea what Oddish's deal is since nobody has talked about it in this thread or the previous one. Oddish can drop for all I care.
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Not really opposed to Oddish's dropping, but I'd be happy to discuss why it's in B right now. Simply put, it's because it turns into a very good lategame Grass type due to the (late) Petal Dance and a high special attack stat, generally getting to that point just around the Sootopolis gym, and prior to that a fairly strong support movepool in Sleep Powder, backed up by its evolution's fairly high defenses.

Oddish's main issue is that its offensive level up movepool is barren, being Acid right around evolution and Absorb before that. Its TM movepool does help somewhat, with an option for Bullet Seed to slightly beef up its grass STAB until Giga Drain is available, as well as Secret Power not long after obtaining it, something not heavily contested and which Gloom makes surprisingly decent use of due to its passable attack stat. Sludge Bomb is similar, providing a reliable STAB that Vileplume can make fine use of with its decent 80 base attack.

In terms of major battles, Oddish takes on Rival 2's Wailmer and Marshtomp well due to type advantage, can take on Lombre and Shroomish but will take a long time in the process, and does poorly against everything else. Oddish does fairly well against Wattson's non-Magnemite/ton Pokemon in spite of its low attacking power options, due to a resistance to their STAB and Sleep Powder providing a large amount of breathing room. Selfdestruct from Voltorb is incredibly painful of course. Oddish doesn't do particularly well against Team Magma and Aqua due to the massive amount of Zubat they use, although it can usually take on the Poochyena and Carvanha lines, especially later on when its movepool opens up.

Flannery is a no go for obvious reasons. The by this point Gloom actually does alright against Norman, being capable of taking on at least one of his Pokemon because of Sleep Powder's incredible utility. Rival 3 Gloom (or even Vileplume at this point) excels against, taking on Wailmer, Shroomish, Lombre, Marshtomp, and Grovyle. As Vileplume it is possible to take on the Pelipper in Emerald, but it's a difficult fight that relies too much on Sleep Powder to be comfortable. Winona is also a bad time for Gloom/Vileplume, although with the Sludge Bomb TM you could probably take on the Emerald Tropius.

Tate and Liza are interesting but not particularly favorable to Vileplume, particularly in Emerald due to Xatu. Vileplume has likely been able to feed heavily off the water route trainers at this point, so it's not a stretch to have Vileplume take on Claydol, Solrock, or Lunatone with Giga Drain, but it's not a gym where Vileplume will feast like it does for Sootopolis. Vileplume should be fully capable of taking on the Sootopolis gym, as long as you've given either the Giga Drain TM or if you've just gotten to Petal Dance. Sealeo can pause Vileplume temporarily while Milotic and Kingdra usually call for Sleep Powder, but otherwise Vileplume rolls over the gym.

The Elite Four depend somewhat on whether or not you've given Vileplume Sludge Bomb. Vileplume can reasonably take on (requires Sludge Bomb in brackets) -

Sidney: Sharpedo/Crawdaunt, generally Mightyena, [Cactune, Shiftry]
Phoebe: Banette 1, generally Dusclops 1, Sableye (Emerald)
Glacia: Sealeo 1 (Sleep Powder needs not to miss and let Sealeo build up Ice Ball)
Drake: maybe Kingdra, [Shelgon, Altaria]
Steven: Claydol, generally Cradily (Sludge Bomb helps a lot)
Wallace: Whiscash, Ludicolo (even Acid lets you take it on), generally Wailord, generally Milotic

Oddish comes into its niche early after catching it, namely its role as a rather bulky and strong sleep inducer, and lays heavy claim to a role as a grass type attacker with appropriate TM support, requiring little in the way of investment beyond that.
 
Merritt said:
Vileplume should be fully capable of taking on the Sootopolis gym, as long as you've given either the Giga Drain TM or if you've just gotten to Petal Dance. Sealeo can pause Vileplume temporarily while Milotic and Kingdra usually call for Sleep Powder, but otherwise Vileplume rolls over the gym.

The Elite Four depend somewhat on whether or not you've given Vileplume Sludge Bomb. Vileplume can reasonably take on (requires Sludge Bomb in brackets) -

Sidney: Sharpedo/Crawdaunt, generally Mightyena, [Cactune, Shiftry]
Phoebe: Banette 1, generally Dusclops 1, Sableye (Emerald)
Glacia: Sealeo 1 (Sleep Powder needs not to miss and let Sealeo build up Ice Ball)
Drake: maybe Kingdra, [Shelgon, Altaria]
Steven: Claydol, generally Cradily (Sludge Bomb helps a lot)
Wallace: Whiscash, Ludicolo (even Acid lets you take it on), generally Wailord, generally Milotic
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Vileplume is pretty slow, so doesn't it need to spend a lot of time healing during these battles?
 
sumwun said:
Vileplume is pretty slow, so doesn't it need to spend a lot of time healing during these battles?
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Accounting for the fact that you get EVs and your opponents don't, the ones that are likely to outspeed Vileplume from the quoted section are:

Juan - Luvdisc (hardly a threat), Kingdra (you want to Sleep Powder this anyways)
Wallace - Luvdisc (see above), potentially Seaking (not very likely but possible, level 43+ Vileplume also turns this into a non-factor), Milotic (same as Kingdra)

Sidney - Sharpedo, Shiftry, maybe Mightyena (possible to outspeed)
Phoebe - Banette 1 (same as Mightyena, possible to outspeed)
Glacia - None
Drake - Kingdra, Altaria
Steven - Claydol (minimal threat)
Wallace - Wailord (possible to outspeed), Ludicolo (no threat), Milotic (you want to Sleep Powder this anyways

Of the battles I listed, the ones who may force you to spend time healing are Phoebe (Dusclops 1 specifically), Sidney (usually if you try to take on Mightyena), Drake, and a chance for Wallace if Wailord does outspeed. You may require additional healing if Sleep Powder misses, specifically if you're taking on Steven's Cradily. Vileplume has very good bulk, so it honestly doesn't need to heal all that often.

What's also pleasant about Vileplume is that you have the option to hold off on evolution for a little while until Gloom learns Moonlight - while this does mean that your Rival 3 battle is a little trickier it in return turns Vileplume into a very difficult to kill Pokemon due to the combination of Sleep Powder and Moonlight. You can of course accomplish the same effect with items but this is cheaper.
 
Karxrida said:
You can always give it Giga Drain. Vileplume’s power and bulk make it one of the better users of the move.
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Yeah this is pretty crucial I think. Giga Drain alleviates the healing issues pretty significantly, especially against Wallace and/or Juan. What makes Vileplume an interesting Pokémon to tier is that there are quite a few matchups that it really hates, but also two or three really big battles that it handles superbly. It also crushes all the route Water-types post-Lilycove. This probably makes it a better choice for an efficient run than a Pokémon like Crobat, which performs decently but not fantastically well against a wider variety of opponents. Plus Sleep Powder is such a useful move, turning otherwise unwinnable matchups into even contests.

Being stuck with Absorb and Acid, plus maybe Bullet Seed or Secret Power, for a large chunk of the game is definitely a problem, and both Giga Drain and Petal Dance suffer from power issues, in addition to having low PP and the ‘Thrash’ side-effect, respectively. The question is whether a huge spike in usefulness when you get to the ocean can make up for the early-to-midgame slog.

EDIT: It also doesn’t really offer any out-of-battle utility unless you’re keen to cripple it by teaching it Cut or Flash.
 
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Cobalt Empoleon said:
What makes Vileplume an interesting Pokémon to tier is that there are quite a few matchups that it really hates, but also two or three really big battles that it handles superbly. It also crushes all the route Water-types post-Lilycove. This probably makes it a better choice for an efficient run than a Pokémon like Crobat, which performs decently but not fantastically well against a wider variety of opponents. Plus Sleep Powder is such a useful move, turning otherwise unwinnable matchups into even contests.

Being stuck with Absorb and Acid, plus maybe Bullet Seed or Secret Power, for a large chunk of the game is definitely a problem, and both Giga Drain and Petal Dance suffer from power issues, in addition to having low PP and the ‘Thrash’ side-effect, respectively. The question is whether a huge spike in usefulness when you get to the ocean can make up for the early-to-midgame slog.
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Zubat should be at least as high as Oddish because being a deadweight in a few matchups is about as annoying as not being able to sweep any major opponents.
 
sumwun said:
Vileplume is pretty slow, so doesn't it need to spend a lot of time healing during these battles?
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Merritt said:
Accounting for the fact that you get EVs and your opponents don't
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31 IVs are worth as much as 124 EVs. Late game major battles have Pokemon with 30-31 IVs. Your average Pokemon will not be much more powerful than that (you would need at least 64 EVs if you had 15 IVs without counting that 10% badge boost).
I did a quick test to check what Vileplume is able to outspeed. Said Pokemon (48 level, 15 IV and 80 EV as always) wasn't able to outspeed:
Sydney: Mightyena, Shiftry, Sharpedo (as well as Absol)
Phoebe: Banette 1 (as well as Banette 2 of course)
Glacia: (Walrein and both Glalie)
Drake: Altaria, Kingdra (as well as Salamence and both Flygon)
Steven: Claydol, Cradily (as well as Skarmory, Aggron, Metagross)
Wallace: Wailord, Milotic, Ludicolo, Whiscash (as well as everything else, really)
On a side note: Whiscash was able to survive TWO Petal Dances after Amnesia. Bad damage roll but still.

I would say that Vileplume will either need some healing or some Ethers/PP Ups (Giga Drain has only 5 PP after all).
 
Celeb said:
31 IVs are worth as much as 124 EVs. Late game major battles have Pokemon with 30-31 IVs. Your average Pokemon will not be much more powerful than that (you would need at least 64 EVs if you had 15 IVs without counting that 10% badge boost).
I did a quick test to check what Vileplume is able to outspeed. Said Pokemon (48 level, 15 IV and 80 EV as always) wasn't able to outspeed:
Sydney: Mightyena, Shiftry, Sharpedo (as well as Absol)
Phoebe: Banette 1 (as well as Banette 2 of course)
Glacia: (Walrein and both Glalie)
Drake: Altaria, Kingdra (as well as Salamence and both Flygon)
Steven: Claydol, Cradily (as well as Skarmory, Aggron, Metagross)
Wallace: Wailord, Milotic, Ludicolo, Whiscash (as well as everything else, really)
On a side note: Whiscash was able to survive TWO Petal Dances after Amnesia. Bad damage roll but still.

I would say that Vileplume will either need some healing or some Ethers/PP Ups (Giga Drain has only 5 PP after all).
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Apologies, I missed Whiscash when I made the list. Something to note - you outspeed Cradily under your conditions due to the 10% speed boost provided by the Dynamo Badge. You can't really discount that since it's a flat base stat check for whether or not something's faster and you can't exactly miss the Dynamo Badge.

The (possible to outspeed) mons on the list I had require a +speed nature and near-parity in levels (level 53 with a 80 EV +speed nature to tie with Wailord).
Also, for side note: those are some hilariously bad damage rolls or Whiscash was using Amnesia twice.

80 SpA Miracle Seed (nearly equivalent to SpA boost, % to 2HKO is identical) Level 48 Vileplume Petal Dance vs. +2 0 HP / 0 SpD Level 56 Whiscash: 102-120 (49.5 - 58.2%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
 
Celeb said:
That test was made in-game. It DOES include badge boosts.
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Then something's wrong.

Cradily has 31 IVs and is level 56, so its speed stat by formula is ([((43*2+31+(0))*56]/100)+5 = 70.52 or 70 accounting for flooring.

Vileplume at level 48 with 15 IVs and 80 EVs is ([((50*2+15+(80/4))*48]/100)+5 = 69.8 or 69 accounting for flooring.

This is all before the badge boost, which should raise Vileplume's speed to an equivalent of 75.

Either the badge boost doesn't apply to the Champion battle for whatever reason, or something was wrong with Vileplume (incorrect IVs, EVs, level, or nature).
 
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sumwun said:
Zubat should be at least as high as Oddish because being a deadweight in a few matchups is about as annoying as not being able to sweep any major opponents.
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Honestly I’m leaning towards agreeing that Oddish should go to C, but I wouldn’t want to definitively say so until I’d used it again in a playthrough, with tiering in mind.
 
Hello !
Lately I've started replaying Sapphire ver. and was building in-game rain team. With this in mind I'm wondering why is Lotad ranked as C-tier ?
It's true that it doesn't learn any powerfull moves quickly and doesn't have high sp.att but once it get's surf and giga drain (throw in rain dance + swift swim) and you have yourself a wrecking ball. At least for me it's MVP who carried me through most battles.
Or maybe the problem is that it needs those TM/HMs to be of any use ?
 
Alienowitch said:
Hello !
Lately I've started replaying Sapphire ver. and was building in-game rain team. With this in mind I'm wondering why is Lotad ranked as C-tier ?
It's true that it doesn't learn any powerfull moves quickly and doesn't have high sp.att but once it get's surf and giga drain (throw in rain dance + swift swim) and you have yourself a wrecking ball. At least for me it's MVP who carried me through most battles.
Or maybe the problem is that it needs those TM/HMs to be of any use ?
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Mostly that and the fact you cannot get Ludicolo until fairly late in the game (you're basically knocking on the door of Gym 7 when you can evolve Lombre). Lombre is pretty crappy to be honest up until that point, its usable, but not compared to a whole slew of other Pokemon.
 
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Makuhita, Hariyama
In RS, Makuhita is obtainable in Rustboro City by trading a Slakoth, which in turn is in Petalburg Woods. Because it gets boosted experience, it can stay a few levels ahead of NPCs for the entire game. Emerald players must wait a little bit longer for Granite Cave, and must contend with not having boosted experience.
By using Hariyama, you get base 144 HP and 120 physical attack before the fourth gym. This, when combined with its decent typing and boosted growth rate, allows Hariyama to 2HKO or 3HKO most things all the way through the Elite Four. Makuhita learns vital throw at level 13, and a 70 base power move at that point is just ridiculous. It can learn strength as a decent coverage move and a useful HM. It gets access to belly drum a bit later, which lets Hariyama sweep opponents when combined with potions.
Because of its great stats, early vital throw, and boosted experience gain, I nominate Makuhita for A tier in Ruby and Sapphire. Because of its great stats and early vital throw, but slower growth rate, I nominate Makuhita for B tier in Emerald.

By the way, if RS Zigzagoon really is as good as it sounds, then why isn't it A tier?
 
sumwun said:
By the way, if RS Zigzagoon really is as good as it sounds, then why isn't it A tier?
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Because RS Zigzagoon does not have much if any offensive potential and so is relegated to a purely support role. Beyond that, in lategame it can often can create complications with HMs due to not having access to Fly, Waterfall, and Dive - and since no other Pokemon available before postgame can learn all three this means you'll potentially need two other HM users. If people really think it should be A though I'm willing to move it.

Also definitely not going to split Makuhita between RS and E. While the RS one may have a higher exp gain it also has the drawback of being nigh impossible to train once you reach level 10 until after beating Brawly (which leaves it rather underleveled) and also having absolutely horrific IVs (5/5/4/4/4/4). While it's certainly possible to get a lower set of IVs on the Granite Cave Makuhita, it's not likely.

This isn't a statement on the nomination, I'll let other people speak on that.
 
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Merritt said:
Also definitely not going to split Makuhita between RS and E. While the RS one may have a higher exp gain it also has the drawback of being nigh impossible to train once you reach level 10 until after beating Brawly (which leaves it rather underleveled) and also having absolutely horrific IVs (5/5/4/4/4/4). While it's certainly possible to get a lower set of IVs on the Granite Cave Makuhita, it's not likely.

This isn't a statement on the nomination, I'll let other people speak on that.
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Doesn't the fluctuating growth rate and early access to arm thrust and vital throw make it easier to train at about level 10?
 
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sumwun said:
Doesn't the fluctuating growth rate and early access to arm thrust and vital throw make it easier to train at about level 10?
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Referring to the not obeying past level 10 until you get the Knuckle Badge there.

Fluctuating as a growth is the fastest per level until level 15, where Medium Slow begins to always outpace it in terms of exp to next level, starting at level 20 Fast always outpaces it too, Medium Fast follows at level 26, Erratic at level 32 with the exception of level 36, and finally Slow outpaces it every odd level from 37 onwards until level 62 where it is always faster.

Fluctuating is arguably the best exp growth until around level 25ish assuming everything was caught around or below level 10, after which point you want to be in Medium Slow or Fast. Around level 30ish Medium Fast is better to be, and not long after level 40 even Erratic is better. Slow is just a terrible place to be all around, but not long after level 50 it starts looking better than Fluctuating.

To summarize in ingame terms, Fluctuating is great through earlygame, but begins falling off as an exp growth around the fourth gym. Around the 6th gym it's still usable but unpleasant and lategame Fluctuating is absolutely terrible.
 
I don't think Makuhita should be split. The trade one doesn't have much of an advantage over a normal one despite coming earlier due to the disobedience factor, plus terrible IVs are terrible.
 
Merritt said:
Also definitely not going to split Makuhita between RS and E. While the RS one may have a higher exp gain it also has the drawback of being nigh impossible to train once you reach level 10 until after beating Brawly (which leaves it rather underleveled) and also having absolutely horrific IVs (5/5/4/4/4/4). While it's certainly possible to get a lower set of IVs on the Granite Cave Makuhita, it's not likely.
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Kurona said:
Due to the outsider Pokémon not obeying without badges thing, unfortunately no.
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Karxrida said:
I don't think Makuhita should be split. The trade one doesn't have much of an advantage over a normal one despite coming earlier due to the disobedience factor, plus terrible IVs are terrible.
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So Makuhita will be B tier in all three versions?
 
Gokuzbu said:
People keep saying how Grass types feast on all the Water types late in the game. In reality I didn't find this to be true. A large amount like Tentacruel, Pelipper, Gyarados, Lombre, Kingdra are neutral and some pack ice coverage to boot. Taking down Sharpedo's paper thin defenses is no feat either. I don't find Grass very useful in this game.
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So are there any particular grass Pokemon you think should move down?

Also, why exactly is Makuhita not B tier?
 
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Gokuzbu said:
People keep saying how Grass types feast on all the Water types late in the game. In reality I didn't find this to be true. A large amount like Tentacruel, Pelipper, Gyarados, Lombre, Kingdra are neutral and some pack ice coverage to boot. Taking down Sharpedo's paper thin defenses is no feat either. I don't find Grass very useful in this game.
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I agree with this. Grass typing only shines against 8th gym since it is the most efficient there. Roxanne is easily beatable with water type. Team Aqua members frequently use very weak Pokemon. Archie has Golbat and confuse hax so grass typing isn't really a counter to him. Water trainers mostly use NFE Pokemon so they certainly are not a problem in the games. Tate and Liza are easier to beat with water Pokemon (thanks to SE water, ice and, sometimes, dark attacks).
 
Gokuzbu said:
People keep saying how Grass types feast on all the Water types late in the game. In reality I didn't find this to be true. A large amount like Tentacruel, Pelipper, Gyarados, Lombre, Kingdra are neutral and some pack ice coverage to boot. Taking down Sharpedo's paper thin defenses is no feat either. I don't find Grass very useful in this game.
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Tentacruel: Mild concern for your Grass type, however Acid is still only 40 BP. Resisting Bubblebeam goes a long way, and unlike Water types who also resist, grasses have a neutral STAB.
Pelipper: Hilariously, after level 33 they're no longer even a remote concern. The trainer's Wingull's are a larger threat than Pelipper is at the same level, since they still have Wing Attack, and obviously a Wingull isn't exactly hard to KO.
Gyarados: Only the ones below level 35 are a slight concern, after that they lose Thrash. Again, a neutral STAB is still very useful.
Lombre: The only lategame Lombre that exists is in the Sootopolis gym. There is exactly one and it's an optional trainer you efficiently speaking shouldn't even fight, not sure why this is relevant.
Kingdra: Owned by Juan and Drake only (the third rematch only one for a random trainer doesn't count). Juan's is a concern since it packs Ice Beam, but for Drake a grass type allows you to resist the most immediately concerning move in Surf while Body Slam is a much more easily taken move than the stronger STAB one.

I also look at look at said Route trainers to get an overall idea of what Pokemon were common. Staryu and Wailmer were near the top, with Wingull close behind and then a smattering of Luvdisc, Tentacool/cruel, Chinchou, and others. Grass STAB is generally extremely effective lategame vs the trainers, which allows them to grow very quickly unlike, say, a Ground type which is why people say they "feast" there - they've got a neutral at worst matchup and so they can train incredibly effectively.

Celeb said:
I agree with this. Grass typing only shines against 8th gym since it is the most efficient there. Roxanne is easily beatable with water type. Team Aqua members frequently use very weak Pokemon. Archie has Golbat and confuse hax so grass typing isn't really a counter to him. Water trainers mostly use NFE Pokemon so they certainly are not a problem in the games. Tate and Liza are easier to beat with water Pokemon (thanks to SE water, ice and, sometimes, dark attacks).
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OP said:
Some guidelines to follow:
- We do not decide the tiering of one Pokémon based on its performance relative to another Pokémon. It does not matter if Pokémon X does the same thing better than Pokémon Y; if both are good enough for the same tier, they will be placed as such. (e.g. Corphish should be E-Tier, because Carvanha does its job way better)
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On a different note, I'd really like somebody else to talk about Makuhita, either to say they agree with sumwun or to disagree so I can either move or not move it. So far the only discussion on it has been about not splitting it between RS and E.
 
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