Pokemon Ruby, Sapphire, and Emerald In-Game Tier List Discussion

[Merritt]

Carvanha, Sharpedo
Availability: Carvanha can be fished on Route 118. This requires either a good rod, which is at the east side of Route 118, or a super rod, which is at Mossdeep City. Both of these locations require surf to access, so Carvanha can't be caught until Norman is defeated. As more than half the game would be completed before Carvanha becomes available, availability is Carvanha's limiting factor.
Evolution: Carvanha starts evolving at level 30. As Carvanha can be level 30 when caught, this evolution should be pretty easy to achieve. Carvanha doesn't learn any important moves after level 30, so it's best evolved as soon as it reaches level 30.
Stats: Sharpedo's base 95 speed allows it to outspeed many opponents, and its STABs are powered by a decent base 95 special attack. Its base physical attack is 120, so it can use moves like strength to beat opponents with higher special defense. Both of its base defenses are 40, so it will eat up quite a few potions and revives, and it will lose the battle if it can't quickly defeat the opponent.
Typing: Due to low defensive stats, Sharpedo often gets 2HKO'd or 3HKO'd regardless of defensive typing. Offensively, water dark typing is pretty good, granting super effective STABs against several late-game opponents.
Movepool: Carvanha can quickly get a good STAB for both types, coming already knowing crunch and learning surf from the HM. While neither STAB type is physical, strength is a decent move for taking advantage of the base 120 physical attack. This moveset already contains two useful HM moves. Sharpedo learns swagger at level 43 for those of you who like swagger. If you don't, then you can teach it a third HM move, which can be rock smash, dive, or waterfall.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Carvanha can 1v1 without overleveling, using TMs, or using bag items in battle.
Courtney (Route 119): Numel, Mightyena
Shelly (Route 119): Carvanha, Mightyena
Brendan/May (Route 119): Numel, Wailmer, Lombre, Slugma, Combusken, Marshtomp
Winona: Swablu, Pelipper, Swellow, Skarmory
Brendan/May (Lilycove City): Swellow, Shroomish, Numel, Wailmer, Slugma, Pelipper, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp
Tabitha (E): Numel, Mightyena, Zubat, Camerupt
Maxie (Magma Hideout): Mightyena, Camerupt
Tabitha (R): Numel, Mightyena, Camerupt
Matt (Aqua Hideout): Carvanha, Mightyena, Sharpedo, Golbat
Tate&Liza: Claydol, Xatu, Lunatone, Solrock
Tabitha and Maxie: both Mightyenas, Golbat, both Camerupts
Courtney (Seafloor Cavern): Camerupt, Mightyena
Maxie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Camerupt
Shelly (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Archie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Sharpedo
Wallace (Sootopolis City): Luvdisc, Sealeo, Seaking
Juan: Luvdisc, Sealeo, Kingdra
Wally: Delcatty, Gardevoir
Sidney: Mightyena, Shiftry, Sharpedo, Absol
Phoebe: both Dusclopses, both Banettes, Sableye
Glacia: both Glalies, both Sealeos
Drake: Shelgon
Steven: Skarmory, Claydol, Armaldo, Aggron
Because of Carvanha's late availability, this list is quite short. Even though Carvanha can defeat many late-game opponents, it's still limited to late-game opponents.
Additional Comments: I won't deny that Carvanha is easy to evolve and has good stats, offensive typing, and movepool, because it does. However, these advantages are completely irrelevant for more than half of the game, because of Carvanha's availability. Due to the fact that it comes so late, I nominate Carvanha for C tier.

I heavily disagree with the notion that Carvanha comes so late that it must drop to C. In terms of sheer number of Pokemon that you're taking on, this list is roughly equivalent to Treecko that you nominated for A, and even if you look at the number of major battles that Carvanha is around for it's not missing all that many.

Carvanha misses: Rival 1 (which everybody but starter does), Roxanne, Rustboro Rival (Emerald only, optional), Brawly, Rival 2, Wattson, Mt Chimney (Admin and Leader), Flannery, and Norman.

Carvanha is around for: Weather Insititute, Rival 3, Winona, Magma Hideout (Emerald only, Admin and Maxie), Aqua Hideout, Rival 4 (optional), Tate & Liza, Maxie and Tabitha (Emerald only), Seafloor Cavern (Admin and Leader), Sootopolis Leader, Wally, Elite 4, Champion.

That is a total of 9 major battles it misses (10 in Emerald), in return being around and very useful for 15 (18 in Emerald). This number changes to 8 missed, 14/17 there if we discount the Starter Battle and optional rivals. While this isn't exactly an insignificant number of battles to be gone for, it's also not enough to take away so heavily from the dominance Sharpedo is capable of exerting.

Keep in mind the definition of B and C in regards to lateness.

B rank: These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

C rank: These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Carvanha doesn't even really come lategame, it's more solidly midgame than even early late.

You'd have more success arguing for Staryu to be dropped from B to C, since it comes significantly later though in return has even more dominance over lategame.

Treecko I personally think is more of a B rank mon, and everybody I worked on the preliminary rankings agreed it was more B than A because while it's around forever it's also not amazingly good during a lot of that time, especially early on while you're working with Absorb. I'd like to see other people discuss this one though because I know Treecko is a very polarizing mon.

Plusle, Minun, and Voltorb have all moved up to D, Relicanth has moved down to E.

 

[sumwun]

I heavily disagree with the notion that Carvanha comes so late that it must drop to C. In terms of sheer number of Pokemon that you're taking on, this list is roughly equivalent to Treecko that you nominated for A, and even if you look at the number of major battles that Carvanha is around for it's not missing all that many.

Carvanha misses: Rival 1 (which everybody but starter does), Roxanne, Rustboro Rival (Emerald only, optional), Brawly, Rival 2, Wattson, Mt Chimney (Admin and Leader), Flannery, and Norman.

Carvanha is around for: Weather Insititute, Rival 3, Winona, Magma Hideout (Emerald only, Admin and Maxie), Aqua Hideout, Rival 4 (optional), Tate & Liza, Maxie and Tabitha (Emerald only), Seafloor Cavern (Admin and Leader), Sootopolis Leader, Wally, Elite 4, Champion.

That is a total of 9 major battles it misses (10 in Emerald), in return being around and very useful for 15 (18 in Emerald). This number changes to 8 missed, 14/17 there if we discount the Starter Battle and optional rivals. While this isn't exactly an insignificant number of battles to be gone for, it's also not enough to take away so heavily from the dominance Sharpedo is capable of exerting.

Keep in mind the definition of B and C in regards to lateness.

B rank: These Pokémon are still very useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or come fairly late.

C rank: These Pokémon are useful but either have several visible flaws holding them back or barely make up for their late arrivals.

Carvanha doesn't even really come lategame, it's more solidly midgame than even early late.

You'd have more success arguing for Staryu to be dropped from B to C, since it comes significantly later though in return has even more dominance over lategame.

If availability really is "not enough to take away from the dominance (evolution family) is capable of exerting," then maybe Heracross should move up. It comes not much later than Carvanha does and has much better stats. If you want to go by matchups, then maybe stuff like Zubat and Makuhita should be in a higher tier than Carvanha. They both have more good matchups than Carvanha and even some A tier stuff like Zangoose. Electrike and Tentacool don't have obvious flaws, so if you want to go by the definitions, then maybe Electrike and Tentacool should be A tier.

Treecko I personally think is more of a B rank mon, and everybody I worked on the preliminary rankings agreed it was more B than A because while it's around forever it's also not amazingly good during a lot of that time, especially early on while you're working with Absorb. I'd like to see other people discuss this one though because I know Treecko is a very polarizing mon.

Shroomish isn't amazingly good when it's working with absorb, and Shroomish is still good enough for A tier. Abra isn't amazingly good when it's working with teleport, and Abra somehow made it to S tier. You need to remember that we're dealing with RSE, where very few of the early-available Pokemon don't need exp. share training.

Plusle, Minun, and Voltorb have all moved up to D, Relicanth has moved down to E.

Okay.

 

[DHR-107]

The thing is with Abra is that "babying" the 8 or so levels to get to Kadabra means you basically easily sweep the rest of the game with it. Kadabra is fast and powerful and learns good moves early. Confusion when it evolves allows it to beat Brawly easily and then it gets Psybeam just 5 levels later (a 65 power move at that point is just ridiculous).

The problem with Heracross is two fold. A 5% encounter chance in an area where you have to have the Acro Bike to get to it. Most people will pick up the Mach Bike for speed, so they would need to go back to Mauville to swap the bikes around. Carvahna is catch-able immediately after obtaining the Good Rod, in the same patch of water you just surfed across. You can teach it Surf right away and then you get Crunch at Lv 25 (potentially catching one with it). Albeit, you've already got something that can Surf to get into that position but that's besides the point.

Carvahna, although frail as tin foil, hits really hard very quickly. I think it would actually rank higher in Ruby compared to Sapphire as there is a larger number of Fire types for it to compete with (its matchup is much better vs Magma than Aqua for obvious reasons).

Treecko is a bone of contention in every Hoenn tier list. It really comes down to whether or not you want to Keep Treecko to get Mega Drain and then let it evolve to get Leaf Blade as well. It gets access to early Bullet Seed which is good, but I've never felt like Treecko was my "go to member" like some of the other A rank mons are. It also depends on the game here too. Treecko savours being picked in Sapphire, dominating Aqua grunts and their major battles, whereas it suffers in Ruby from the same trainers. If we could have a B+ tier, I would put it there, but I think it should be in B. Treecko might need a few more people to talk about it to be honest.

 

[sumwun]

I don't think the version makes much of a difference (except, of course, for Zangoose) because the villains in both versions use more Poochyenas and Zubats than Numels or Carvanhas.

The problem with Heracross is two fold. A 5% encounter chance in an area where you have to have the Acro Bike to get to it. Most people will pick up the Mach Bike for speed, so they would need to go back to Mauville to swap the bikes around. Carvahna is catch-able immediately after obtaining the Good Rod, in the same patch of water you just surfed across. You can teach it Surf right away and then you get Crunch at Lv 25 (potentially catching one with it). Albeit, you've already got something that can Surf to get into that position but that's besides the point.

It's not much harder to get a Heracross than it is to get a Carvanha that already knows crunch. There's not much of a point in catching Heracross before defeating the Fortree Gym and becoming able to use fly, so backtracking shouldn't be a problem.

Carvahna, although frail as tin foil, hits really hard very quickly. I think it would actually rank higher in Ruby compared to Sapphire as there is a larger number of Fire types for it to compete with (its matchup is much better vs Magma than Aqua for obvious reasons).

If an available mid-game, frail-as-tin-foil evolution family can be B tier just by hitting hard, then shouldn't stuff with none of these problems but still hits hard, like Electrike or Tentacool, be A tier?

Treecko is a bone of contention in every Hoenn tier list. It really comes down to whether or not you want to Keep Treecko to get Mega Drain and then let it evolve to get Leaf Blade as well. It gets access to early Bullet Seed which is good, but I've never felt like Treecko was my "go to member" like some of the other A rank mons are. It also depends on the game here too. Treecko savours being picked in Sapphire, dominating Aqua grunts and their major battles, whereas it suffers in Ruby from the same trainers. If we could have a B+ tier, I would put it there, but I think it should be in B. Treecko might need a few more people to talk about it to be honest.

For some reason, Treecko was good when I used it.

 

[Merritt]

It's not much harder to get a Heracross than it is to get a Carvanha that already knows crunch.

Not sure if you both were looking at the wrong gen's level up movepool, but Carvanha has Crunch at level 22, so getting one with Crunch is actually pretty likely. Even if you don't get one with Crunch (and honestly, why would you settle for one under level 22 anyways at that point in the game), it has immediate access to Surf. There's also the fact that you flat out don't have to backtrack or sidetrack for Carvanha at all, instead you just get the good rod and turn left on a route you have to cross anyways. Heracross does require both backtracking and going somewhat out of your way, although at least the Pokeblock throw bug means you don't have to worry about it fleeing except on the first couple turns, though that in itself takes time since you need several basic colored Pokeblocks.

If an available mid-game, frail-as-tin-foil evolution family can be B tier just by hitting hard, then shouldn't stuff with none of these problems but still hits hard, like Electrike or Tentacool, be A tier?

Sure! Tentacool comes early but makes up for that by having an early game whose painfulness is only equaled by Magikarp, having absolutely pitiful damage due to Poison Sting and Contrict's low base power until level 19 where your offensive power becomes merely "bad" due to Acid. Level 25 post-Bubblebeam and onward is much more manageable, but that comes much later on and requires a good bit of grinding through painful levels to get up there. It maintains B rank though due to a fairly strong game after level 25 and very good utility as an HM slave.

Electrike is similar, a very weak game from catching due to being both underleveled for that point of the game and not getting electric STAB until level 20 and Spark while coming at level 13 and working off Tackle. Bite - the coverage move that helps set it apart from the other Electric types - is also extremely late at level 39 as Manectric. Its saving grace is a fairly early evolution at level 26 that provides a shockingly large amount of power and speed for that point, and allowing it to plow through midgame and never quite falling off. While you could argue that it bypasses these early movepool issues by being available to be caught at level 26 on Route 118 (at the exact same time as Carvanha), it doesn't quite manage to make up for its only slightly higher base Special Attack compared to Carvanha's much better STABs and overall coverage.

Both of these suffer from a very bad time early on but manage to translate that (around the same time actually at level 25ish) into a strong midgame that never quite falls off even late. Their issues are pretty different from Carvanha's, since Carvanha comes out of the box with amazing stats and movepool but low defenses and coming a solid midgame, while both Tentacool and Electrike come fairly early but have a moderately long and painful journey to usefulness. This is pretty similar to Magikarp, who also finally gains its powerful use around the same time with Thrash at Fallarbor. The difference between these and Abra (No Trade), before you ask, is that while both are painful and need to be carried at catching, Abra (No Trade) has both a shorter way to go before evolution and usefulness and is capable of steamrolling the game far more effectively at that point.

 

[sumwun]

Heracross does require both backtracking and going somewhat out of your way, although at least the Pokeblock throw bug means you don't have to worry about it fleeing except on the first couple turns, though that in itself takes time since you need several basic colored Pokeblocks.

Heracross is pretty easy to catch even without Pokeblocks. Even if it took 10 minutes of sidetracking, are the 10 minutes really enough to lower Heracross a whole tier? Its good stats will most likely save more than 10 minutes of opening the bag and using potions.

Electrike is similar, a very weak game from catching due to being both underleveled for that point of the game and not getting electric STAB until level 20 and Spark while coming at level 13 and working off Tackle.

I don't think 7 levels is very much babying. Also, why exactly is Shroomish worth babying enough to be A tier?

 

[Coconut]

Just gonna drop some of my opinions really quick, take note that I mainly speedrun emerald, so that's where a lot of my experience comes from, but I'm very familiar with the games as a whole.

I really feel like the value of Treecko is being heavily undervalued. I'm not really following the logic of how we're tiering things and I feel like they should be more defined in general, but that's another story. One of the main arugments that I noticed was it's lackluster movepool early game, but a respectable movepool with TMs late game. Quite frankly this doesn't make much sense to me as it gets the Bullet Seed TM really early, which is a solid option for a STAB that early into the game. (Can I just throw out there, it isn't really used by anything else and is barely worth selling.) In addition to that, people mention that you really need to wait it out to get to the useable moves, like the Mega Drain/Leaf Blade Combo. I understand that issue, but I think this "flaw" is being way overvalued. Treecko's midgame isn't going to suffer drastically if you're just killing things with Leaf Blade instead of Mega Draining. This seems to be way more of a preference issue than a viability issue. I've also seen things that it falls off late game (which, is contrary to what arguments were established earlier), but it never really falls off and isn't useless in some of the late battles. It can do some work against Solrock and Lunatone of Tate and Liza, can carry you through Wallace/Juan successfully, and can almost single handily defeat one of the evil teams, depending on which version is played.

One thing that I personally look at when I'm doing a longplay of a game like this (and I know this is tiptoeing the line of the rules a bit) is "Is there something that I can get that requires less support than what I currently have and will provide more of what I currently have?" At the point that Treecko stops being a top tier mon, the clear answer to this is no. Everything else that would require either way more support or simply will not do as much as the Treecko line does. I think it stacks up really well to a lot of the things in A, as it is certainly capable of being the "go-to" of any team that chooses the worst starter of the gen.

A lot of discussion on Treecko in my opinion has been either incomplete or inconsistent, so more focused discussion would be really appreciated.

On that note I'm going to move on to some things that I'm less adamant on...

Skarmory is such a bad Pokemon. I know, it's job isn't to kill everything in sight and it basically resists every hit under the sun. But the amount of support that it needs in the early midgame just to wall...Winona and a couple of people in the Elite 4? It also always seems to do absolutely no damage. Between a STAB Fly and a Steel Wing TM as it's only real options, it's shallow movepool is worsened because it suffers from not being able to score kills on so many different things. I really don't see a reason for this to stay in B, as it's defensive prowess was clearly misinterpreted.

Also just going to echo what people have said before about Heracross, that mon is such a pain to get. It simply won't take 10 minutes. You need to get the Acro Bike, which takes time, then you need to get all the way over to the deepest parts of the Safari Zone, only to hope that you land the 5% (fact check please) chance of finding Heracross, let alone catching it. However, once you finally get it, it still has heaps of issues. It needs plenty of support because you're getting the Pokemon at under level 30. It can handle the Dark types that the evil teams have, but not the Zubat/Numel lines. It would be able to handle the Psychic gym, but it doesn't get it's best move and one of it's STABs until level 53. It can do some damage to the elite four, but at what cost are you really paying to hopefully roll through the elite 4? It can't even solo the elite 4 because you need a way to hit Phoebe, which Heracross does not have. This Pokemon is fine in C.

Also, I don't feel like typing very much more, but Zangoose is sooooo good.

 

[Karxrida]

Doesn't Skarmory beat Norman consistently? Norman's not exactly a cakewalk, so that's gotta be worth something.

Shroomish's placement was called into question earlier, and I also want to know just what it does that makes it worthy of A. I've never used the thing but it just looks horrible on paper between its stats (high Attack is cool but it also has low SpA for a Grass and it's frail), its movepool (no STABs stronger than 50 BP until Level 36 or the Giga Drain TM means you're relying on Headbutt for neutral damage), and shoddy Gym matchups (you beat Roxanne and maybe Norman, and that's it really).

 

[sumwun]

I really feel like the value of Treecko is being heavily undervalued. I'm not really following the logic of how we're tiering things and I feel like they should be more defined in general, but that's another story. One of the main arugments that I noticed was it's lackluster movepool early game, but a respectable movepool with TMs late game. Quite frankly this doesn't make much sense to me as it gets the Bullet Seed TM really early, which is a solid option for a STAB that early into the game. (Can I just throw out there, it isn't really used by anything else and is barely worth selling.) In addition to that, people mention that you really need to wait it out to get to the useable moves, like the Mega Drain/Leaf Blade Combo. I understand that issue, but I think this "flaw" is being way overvalued. Treecko's midgame isn't going to suffer drastically if you're just killing things with Leaf Blade instead of Mega Draining. This seems to be way more of a preference issue than a viability issue. I've also seen things that it falls off late game (which, is contrary to what arguments were established earlier), but it never really falls off and isn't useless in some of the late battles. It can do some work against Solrock and Lunatone of Tate and Liza, can carry you through Wallace/Juan successfully, and can almost single handily defeat one of the evil teams, depending on which version is played.

One thing that I personally look at when I'm doing a longplay of a game like this (and I know this is tiptoeing the line of the rules a bit) is "Is there something that I can get that requires less support than what I currently have and will provide more of what I currently have?" At the point that Treecko stops being a top tier mon, the clear answer to this is no. Everything else that would require either way more support or simply will not do as much as the Treecko line does. I think it stacks up really well to a lot of the things in A, as it is certainly capable of being the "go-to" of any team that chooses the worst starter of the gen.

So can Treecko be A tier now?

Doesn't Skarmory beat Norman consistently? Norman's not exactly a cakewalk, so that's gotta be worth something.

It's worth being in C rather than D.

Shroomish's placement was called into question earlier, and I also want to know just what it does that makes it worthy of A. I've never used the thing but it just looks horrible on paper between its stats (high Attack is cool but it also has low SpA for a Grass and it's frail), its movepool (no STABs stronger than 50 BP until Level 36 or the Giga Drain TM means you're relying on Headbutt for damage), and shoddy Gym matchups (you beat Roxanne and maybe Norman, and that's it really).

But fighting STAB makes it good against regular trainers, the villain teams, Sidney, and Steven, right?

 

[Karxrida]

But fighting STAB makes it good against regular trainers, the villain teams, Sidney, and Steven, right?

I admittedly forgot about Sydney, but only two of Steven's Pokémon (Cradily and Aggron) are actually weak to Fighting. Steven also has a Skamory and a Metagross with super effective STABs, plus his Armaldo has Aerial Ace on top of that. Breloom is not a huge asset during that fight, especially since you'd probably have an easier time firing a squirt gun to deal with Aggron.

Breloom is definitely good for field battles at least.

 

[Lucchini]

Breloom is not a huge asset during that fight, especially since you'd probably have an easier time firing a squirt gun to deal with Aggron.

Pretty sure Sky Uppercut would OHKO Aggron.

 

[Xen]

It's also worth pointing out that Breloom learns all the HMs except for the water moves and Fly, so it makes a fair HM slave that can actually contribute to battles w/o compromising its movepool since it only cares about spamming its Fighting STAB and Headbutt/Strength after it evolves.

 

[Its_A_Random]

Pretty sure Sky Uppercut would OHKO Aggron.

This intrigued me so I did some calculations on this matchup.

Assuming Breloom has 15 IV's across the board and 85 EV's across the board as an average case, it needs to be at least Level 52 (with a neutral nature) to even have a shot of one shotting Aggron without a critical hit (iirc Champion IV's are 30 across the board). Assuming natures, Level 49 minimum (with +Attack), Level 55 minimum (with -Attack). This is only an average case of course, and doesnt take into account EV and IV variance.

Which kinda reinforces the point that Breloom destroys that matchup handily, since you can just waste his Full Restores healing up Aggron for nothing if you miss the OHKO, and even then, Aggron's best form of offence vs. Breloom is Dragon Claw (The other three moves are NVE and not STAB), which is only a guaranteed 4HKO on Lv50 neutral Breloom (with 15 IV/85 EV in HP/Def), and even if Breloom had the worst physical bulk ever, it only has a 32.1% chance of a 3HKO.

Which means you have a free reign do something like using X-Items on Breloom (or use Bulk Up, which makes Aggron's attacks even more pathetic) to set up for a sweep the other Pokémon Steven possesses.

tl;dr, Aggron is mauled by Breloom and Aggron's moveset leaves it as setup fodder.

 

[sumwun]

Breloom can also hit Glacia pretty hard, though not her entire team because the Glalies outspeed and know ice beam.
By the way, dragon claw is special, so bulk up won't reduce its damage.

 

[Karxrida]

Pretty sure Sky Uppercut would OHKO Aggron.

I worded that part horribly. I didn't mean to insinuate that Breloom couldn't KO Aggron.

Breloom can also hit Glacia pretty hard, though not her entire team because the Glalies outspeed and know ice beam.

Using Breloom against Glacia is basically playing chicken. You either OHKO or get OHKO'd back, and her Pokémon are either bulky or fast enough that I'd be uncomfortable rolling those dice. If Breloom bites it you then have to sack something after reviving it since you'll be hard-pressed to get Breloom in safely.

Need to calc later if I get a chance.

By the way, dragon claw is special, so bulk up won't reduce its damage.

Aggron's Special Attack is also kind of bad, so it's not going to do much with a non-STAB Dragon Claw.

 

[sumwun]

If Breloom bites it you then have to sack something after reviving it since you'll be hard-pressed to get Breloom in safely.

I meant that you can use Breloom, not rely on it. The player doesn't need to revive the Breloom if it faints.

 

[Lucchini]

iirc Champion IV's are 30 across the board

Do we know that for sure as it applies RSE? Is there any way we can check?

 

[sin(pi)]

Do we know that for sure as it applies RSE? Is there any way we can check?

Easiest way to check is by speed (if speed is 30 then it's likely the others are too), though remember the 9/8 badge bonus. I'm fairly sure ingame trainers don't use boosting natures outside of the various Battle Facilities [citation needed], so that's not a problem.

Also Breloom should have at least 100 Atk EVs if you feed it Proteins (and if you're looking at lists like this, you're probably aware enough to do that). Not sure how that affects any calcs but I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Merritt]

Do we know that for sure as it applies RSE? Is there any way we can check?

Yeah, here's the source I use. The number in brackets is the "AI" value. 250 is 30 IVs across the board, 255 is 31, 200 is 24, ect.

Champion actually has 31 IVs in both games.

 

[sumwun]

Zubat, Golbat, Crobat
Availability: Zubat can be found in Granite Cave, so it's obtainable after the first gym. In addition to the usual benefits, this early availability gives Zubat more chances to raise its friendship and allows Zubat to evolve earlier.
Evolution: Zubat can evolve into Golbat at level 22. Zubat's only good level up move is wing attack, which it already knows by level 22, so Zubat should be evolved at level 22. Golbat's evolution to Crobat requires friendship. To make friendship gain easier, catch Zubat at the lowest possible level (which happens to be level 7 in RSE) and get the soothe bell from the Pokemon Fan Club at Slateport City as soon as you can. Raising Zubat from level 7 to 8 is much easier than, say, 41 to 42, but the friendship increase is the same, so it's a good idea to catch a low-level Zubat.
Stats: From the beginning, Zubat outspeeds most other Pokemon. Once it evolves into Crobat, it becomes the third-fastest Pokemon species in all of Hoenn, beaten only by Electrode (which is rare) and Ninjask (which it easily defeats despite the speed difference). Zubat's decent physical attack lets it put moves like wing attack, sludge bomb, and fly to good use, and its good defensive stats means that it can usually take two or three hits before having to use a potion.
Typing: While poison flying is definitely not the best type combination, Zubat's ground immunity and fighting resistance are often useful.
Movepool: Zubat's biggest drawback is that it knows no good moves until it learns wing attack at level 21. While this does hinder Zubat, you need to remember that this is RSE, where even some A tier evolution families need exp. share training. Once Zubat does learn wing attack (and evolves into Golbat), it starts pulling its own weight. For those of you who are okay using non-renewable TMs, Zubat is made stronger by the sludge bomb TM that can be received in Dewford Hall after defeating Norman.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Zubat can 1v1 without overleveling, using TMs, or using bag items in battle.
Brawly: Meditite
Brendan/May (Route 110): Lombre
Tabitha (Mt. Chimney): Zubat, Numel
Maxie (Mt. Chimney): Mightyena, Zubat, Golbat, Camerupt
Archie (Mt. Chimney): Mightyena, Golbat
Flannery: both Slugmas, Numel
Norman: Spinda
Courtney (Route 119): Numel, Mightyena
Shelly (Route 119): Numel, Mightyena
Brendan/May (Route 119): Shroomish, Numel, Wailmer, Lombre, Slugma, Pelipper, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp
Winona: Swablu, Tropius, Pelipper, Swellow
Brendan/May (Lilycove City): Swellow, Shroomish, Numel, Wailmer, Tropius, Ludicolo, Slugma, Pelipper, Grovyle, Combusken, Marshtomp
Tabitha (E): Numel, Mightyena, Zubat
Tabitha (R): Numel, Camerupt
Matt (Aqua Hideout): Carvanha, Sharpedo, Golbat
I'll assume that Golbat has evolved into Crobat by this point.
Tabitha and Maxie: both Mightyenas, Golbat, Crobat, both Camerupts
Courtney (Seafloor Cavern): Camerupt, Mightyena
Maxie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Crobat, Camerupt
Shelly (Seafloor Cavern): Sharpedo, Mightyena
Archie (Seafloor Cavern): Mightyena, Crobat, Sharpedo
Wallace (Sootopolis City): Luvdisc, Whiscash, Seaking
Juan: Luvdisc, Whiscash
Wally: Delcatty, Altaria, Roselia
Sidney: Cacturne, Shiftry, Sharpedo
Phoebe: the Dusclops without ice beam, both Banettes, Sableye
Drake: both Flygons, Altaria
Steven: Claydol
Wallace (Ever Grande City): Tentacruel, Ludicolo
Additionally, Zubat can 1v1 these notable opponents if it learns sludge bomb from the TM.
Winona: Altaria
Maxie (Magma Hideout): Mightyena
Tabitha (R): Mightyena
Matt (Aqua Hideout ): Mightyena
Juan: Sealeo, Crawdaunt
Sidney: Crawdaunt, Absol
Glacia: the Sealeo without blizzard
Drake: Shelgon, Kingdra
As expected, it doesn't do much more until it evolves. Once it does evolve, however, its only bad matchups are Norman, Tate and Liza, Glacia, the champion, and that one Maxie battle right before it evolves to Crobat.
Additional Comments: While Zubat does suck before it evolves, its usefulness after the evolution makes it definitely not a bad evolution family. Due to its good stats and amazing speed, as well as its relatively early wing attack and eventual fly, I nominate Zubat for B tier.

 

[Merritt]

Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Zubat can 1v1 without overleveling, using TMs, or using bag items in battle.
Brawly: Meditite, Makuhita

Just a quick note - Zubat actually loses to Makuhita with these criteria. Zubat's getting an unrealistic boost as well, being put at level 17 with 40 EVs in everything and 15 IVs in everything. Makuhita is the correct IVs and level.

0 Atk Makuhita Vital Throw vs. 40 HP / 40 Def Level 17 Zubat: 5-7 (11.3 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
40 Atk Zubat Astonish vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Makuhita: 5-7 (8.3 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO

While you could argue for the flinch, keep in mind that Makuhita also has a Sitrus Berry, so it's healing halfway through as well.

So it loses to Makuhita and Machop without items (extremely heavy use of items in the case of Machop), and Meditite is not possible to lose against as long as you have any attacking move due to Meditite's only attacking move being Focus Punch so your newly caught level 3 Wurmple will also win the battle.

Zubat's main issues are the absolutely hellish grind to get to level 21 and even once you get there the payoff for it relative to the other Pokemon you've had to grind like that is underwhelming to say the least. Outside of TMs, Wing Attack is your best damage dealer until Fly for the rest of the game, and while Crobat is fairly strong Wing Attack is a pretty terrible only physical option besides Astonish and Leech Life to have to rely on. You can of course patch this up somewhat with TMs like Steel Wing, Shadow Ball, and Sludge Bomb, but all of those besides Steel Wing come at a solid midgame and are heavily contested. However, because of this your estimates for several of the lategame battles are kind of off in terms of 1v1ing, particularly in the Elite Four.

While there are other pokemon in higher tiers who also need some exp share training, they have either less time required to become useful or have a much higher payoff once the training is done. In tiers above you could argue that Ralts needs some exp share training, but this is only until level 6 at which point it has Confusion and can start fighting for itself, Abra who needs both less training (only to level 16 and gains it much faster than Zubat does due to its leveling rate) and is significantly stronger upon evolution - doubly so if you go trade, Magikarp who has a much stronger payoff at Fallarbor and Thrash, along with good use of the Strength HM very soon after evolution, and Tentacool, who has a comparably difficult early game but has access to a stronger and free STAB in Surf along with use as a very good HM slave.

All of these pokemon have either a better payoff, less time to reach said payoff, or both more so than Zubat does, which is why even though their earlygame difficulties are comparable Zubat isn't able to overcome these difficulties to reach a higher rank.

 

[sumwun]

Just a quick note - Zubat actually loses to Makuhita with these criteria. Zubat's getting an unrealistic boost as well, being put at level 17 with 40 EVs in everything and 15 IVs in everything. Makuhita is the correct IVs and level.

0 Atk Makuhita Vital Throw vs. 40 HP / 40 Def Level 17 Zubat: 5-7 (11.3 - 15.9%) -- possible 7HKO
40 Atk Zubat Astonish vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Makuhita: 5-7 (8.3 - 11.6%) -- possible 9HKO

While you could argue for the flinch, keep in mind that Makuhita also has a Sitrus Berry, so it's healing halfway through as well.

So it loses to Makuhita and Machop without items (extremely heavy use of items in the case of Machop), and Meditite is not possible to lose against as long as you have any attacking move due to Meditite's only attacking move being Focus Punch so your newly caught level 3 Wurmple will also win the battle.

Okay.

Zubat's main issues are the absolutely hellish grind to get to level 21 and even once you get there the payoff for it relative to the other Pokemon you've had to grind like that is underwhelming to say the least. Outside of TMs, Wing Attack is your best damage dealer until Fly for the rest of the game, and while Crobat is fairly strong Wing Attack is a pretty terrible only physical option besides Astonish and Leech Life to have to rely on.

Very few major opponents resist wing attack, so it's really quite reliable. Before evolving into Crobat, Golbat consistently does well in the last two Brendan/May battles, as well as against Winona and whatever villains are in the game, and it helps a lot against Flannery. When Golbat is relying on wing attack, the regular trainers also are mostly using Pokemon that take neutral damage from wing attack, along with a considerable amount of grass types.

You can of course patch this up somewhat with TMs like Steel Wing, Shadow Ball, and Sludge Bomb, but all of those besides Steel Wing come at a solid midgame and are heavily contested.

Of all the Pokemon that are obtainable pre-national Pokedex and get STAB from sludge bomb, Crobat has the third highest physical attack. The only better ones are Seviper and Muk, which are both rarely used for efficient runs. I don't see how the TM for sludge bomb is heavily contested.

However, because of this your estimates for several of the lategame battles are kind of off in terms of 1v1ing, particularly in the Elite Four.

It really can take big chunks out of Sidney's, Phoebe's, and Drake's teams just by spamming fly. No TMs are required for this.

While there are other pokemon in higher tiers who also need some exp share training, they have either less time required to become useful or have a much higher payoff once the training is done. In tiers above you could argue that Ralts needs some exp share training, but this is only until level 6 at which point it has Confusion and can start fighting for itself, Abra who needs both less training (only to level 16 and gains it much faster than Zubat does due to its leveling rate) and is significantly stronger upon evolution - doubly so if you go trade, Magikarp who has a much stronger payoff at Fallarbor and Thrash, along with good use of the Strength HM very soon after evolution, and Tentacool, who has a comparably difficult early game but has access to a stronger and free STAB in Surf along with use as a very good HM slave.

All of these pokemon have either a better payoff, less time to reach said payoff, or both more so than Zubat does, which is why even though their earlygame difficulties are comparable Zubat isn't able to overcome these difficulties to reach a higher rank.

Having good enough stats to get positive matchups against three gym leaders, Wally, and three Elite Four members seems worth counting as overcoming early-game difficulties. Some B tier Pokemon have no early-game difficulties, and not even they can accomplish this.

 

[Kurona]

I've used Zubat multiple times in Gen 3, and I definitely agree with the assertion that Ralts, Abra and Magikarp have better payoffs and/or less time to get to their points of usability. Zubat is really a pain in the heck to grind and while Golbat is fairly good, it's not anything terribly amazing and it really doesn't help that it's immediately up against a lot of electric-types around its point of evolution. From then on it's pretty good, but late-game it starts to show faults in middling power and little coverage outside of Shadow Ball. It was decent for my team each time I used it, but I don't think it's comparable to Ralts, Abra or Magikarp.

 

[sumwun]

I've used Zubat multiple times in Gen 3, and I definitely agree with the assertion that Ralts, Abra and Magikarp have better payoffs and/or less time to get to their points of usability. Zubat is really a pain in the heck to grind and while Golbat is fairly good, it's not anything terribly amazing and it really doesn't help that it's immediately up against a lot of electric-types around its point of evolution. From then on it's pretty good, but late-game it starts to show faults in middling power and little coverage outside of Shadow Ball. It was decent for my team each time I used it, but I don't think it's comparable to Ralts, Abra or Magikarp.

I agree that it's not comparable to Ralts or Abra, which is why I want it to be B tier, not A tier. However, I think it's pretty close to being as good as Magikarp, as Magikarp is also a pain to grind and also immediately against a lot of electric types around its point of evolution. Additionally, it's slower than Crobat, and fly+sludge bomb coverage isn't much worse than thrash+earthquake coverage, especially since Zubat gets STAB from both fly and sludge bomb.

 

[sumwun]

Horsea (yes trade) should be E tier because dragon scales are ridiculously rare in these versions. Also, have the Treecko and Zubat discussions concluded? I don't see any sort of resolution.