Pokemon Heartgold and Soulsilver In-Game Tier List (MkII)

Status
Not open for further replies.
Let's lighten things up with some logs, eh?

Slowking is 39, everyone else 38

Victreebel: Specs Sludge Bomb 3hkos Gyara whereas it outspeeds and 3hkos you back with Dragon Rage, you’ll need a lucky poison or a potion to beat this one. Dragonairs are outsped and 2hkod, the Fire Blast one will beat you provided it lands its hits but the Aqua Tail one is helpless. Kingdra is 2hkod though it will 2hko you back with Dragon Pulse. When I went against it it Smokescreen’d for some reason, and I managed to hit, so with some dumb ai it’s feasible. Overall decent, requires a lot of luck but it can work I suppose.

Miltank: Get up to +3 Defense Curls as Dragon Rage takes you to red, potion up and start rolling out. At +3, Rollout 1 and 2 ko Gyara as it brings you to yellow. However Kingdra will immediately come in and revenge you, so Rollout sweeping isn’t feasible in this mu. With just Return spam, you 3hko Gyara, 2hko the Dragons, and 4hko Kingdra, whereas it 2hkos you back with Hydro Pump. Decent.

Magmar: Bad lol. Best you can really do is roll for hax with Confuse Ray and Lava Plume burns. Specs Focus Blast could do well against Dragonairs but that is inherently very risky.

Slowking: Setting up Nast Plot on anything is impossible. Gyara has Bite and Dragons will para hax. Your best bet might be Kingdra actually, as Dragon Pulse bounces off, but Smokescreen is inherently annoying. At +4, you 2hko Kingdra/Gyara and ohko the dragons, but you’ll need some items to get there. Decent mu.

Victreebel and Magmar 41, rest 40

Victreebel: Sludge Bomb 2hkos Sneasel, while Solar Beam ohkos Gatr, Kadabra, and Magneton. Kadabra went for Reflect turn 1 (I think cuz my attack is higher than my special attack? I have no physical moves) and was able to sleep it, I don’t think Psybeam would ko tho so you would still have a chance otherwise. Golbat and Haunter are no nos. Good mu.

Miltank: Set up two Dcurls on Sneasel. Rollouts one and two ko Sneasel, 3 and 4 Feraligatr, and 5 Kadabra. Zen Headbutt will ko Golbat and Haunter. If you run EQ you can hit Magneton but I’m not so you’ll need to not get para’d so you can Rollout it into oblivion. Overall good mu

Magmar: Flamethrower and Fire Blast ohko everything except Gatr, whom you must stay away from. Great mu.

Slowking: Only thing you can securely set up on is Kadabra as everything else has supereffective coverage. Get to +2 and ko Kadabra. Haunter’s dumbass won’t Shadow Ball the first two turns so you can potentially kill it without having to take a Shadow Ball. Magneton will actually beat you due to parafusion and Spark granted you don’t get Surf off immediately. Golbat you can beat 1v1 but Bite and such will be annoying. Decent to bad mu.

Victreebel is 42, Magmar 43, rest 44

Victreebel: With sleep you can beat Slowbro and Eggy but if they wake up early you’re fucked lol. Everything else will ko you before you have a chance to sleep. Overall bad mu.

Miltank: Return 2hkos Xatus and Jynx, 3hkos Eggy, 4hkos Bro. Due to Reflect you cannot break through Eggy. Due to my low spdef ivs the Psychics really sting but even if you have better ivs they should still 3hko. Decent.

Magmar: Needs Choice Specs to ohko Xatus with Fire Blast, which will 2hko with Psychic. Otherwise it ohkos Eggy and Jynx just fine, though the latter will outspeed you and put you to sleep before you can kill it. Avoid Slowbro. Decent.

Slowking: Set up +2 and click Shadow Ball. Xatus make this annoying between U-Turn and Me Firsting Shadow Ball, but with a potion you should be fine. Good mu

Levels are the same

Victreebel: lmao

Miltank: Set up 3 Defense Curls on Ariados. Rollouts 1 and 2 kill Dos, 3 and 4 Forretress, and 5 Venomoth. Try and get Rollout going on Muk again but natural inaccuracy and Minimize spam makes it difficult. Zen Headbutt is a 3hko without TwistedSpoon. Crobat goes much the same way. Decent.

Magmar: Spam your fire moves to win. The bugs drop, obviously, and Muk and Crobat get 2hkod. Pray to God you hit your Fire Blasts against them. Good.

Slowking: Set up and sweep. Your hardest matchup is Muk, who will spam Minimize and never get hit you fucking asshole just die already. Crobat also falls under this category. Good mu, but can get very annoying.

Victreebel 42, Slowking 45, rest 44.

Victreebel: Set up Growth and sweeping isn’t possible cuz Lee and Chan will just ko you with their fire attacks. 1v1 you’ll beat Top and Onix. Poor.

Miltank: TwistedSpoon Zen Headbutt 2hkos the fighters. All of them except Hitmonchan have some way to bug you (Top counters, Lee outspeeds and Swaggers/HJKs, Champ just kills you). You can beat Onix should you choose to run EQ. Poor mu.

Magmar: 2hko everything with Fire Blast/Flamethrower, except for Onix, who is ohko’d by Focus Blast.

Slowking: Nasty Plot up and sweep. Worst fear is Thunder Punch but it won’t ko and you can heal off if you need it. Great mu.

Levels are the same

Victreebel: You can sleep Umbreon, set up to +2 and 2hko it with Solarbeam, but you’ll likely have to get lucky with Confuse Ray. If you manage this you can also kill Murkrow while you’re at it as you live a Pluck from full.

Miltank: You can try and Rollout sweep but Umbreon and Vileplume and Gengar make it almost impossible. 1v1 you can deal with Murkrow and Plume, and if you’re very lucky, Gar. Decent.

Magmar: Focus Blast 2hkos Umbreon, Fire Blast ohkos Krow, Plume and Gar. Focus Blast kos Doom. It’s a matter of both surviving attacks and landing your own attacks. Decent/good.

Slowking: Setting up is nigh impossible. Choice Specs attacks will ko basically everything except Umbreon (you could have Focus Blast for this but ehh) and it’s a matter of being healthy enough to eat a Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse. Decent.

Victreebel 42, Miltank 44, rest 45.

Victreebel: You might beat Gyarados but nothing else is gonna be in your favor. Bad mu.

Miltank: I attempted Ryota’s strat of sweeping Lance and unfortunately I was unable to replicate it, I would be consistently left in the red by Gyarados and then outsped and kod by the Thunder Dnite.

Magmar: Everything resists your attacks. Terrible mu.

Slowking: Unfortunately you can’t sweep as you’ll be revenge killed by Dragon Rush unless you’re at full. Otherwise it can Blizzard the Dnites and surf Charizard. Aero will beat you with Crunch unless you’re Specs. Decent/good.

And for some noms:

Bellsprout to D: Bellsprout is probably the best early game grass besides Chikorita, but that isn't saying much. It can kinda contribute cuz it has some strong stabs and can buy itself time with Sleep Powder, but this is a very slow method of contributing to fights. It's basically a non-factor at the e4 too.

Miltank to B: Just a solid midgame normal type. Not easy to sweep at the e4 but more than pulls its weight at other areas of the game.

Magmar to B: Missing out on the early game that Cyndaquil has bars this thing from A imo, but otherwise it performs extremely similarly. Having a long line of strong, reliable fire stabs to use is a great niche and I would consider this the best fire type outside of Typhlosion.

Slowpoke (Slowking) to B/C: I was incredibly disappointed with this mon. Turns out being a slow psychic type is just the worst, a lot of things in this game have dark coverage randomly and it makes it a pain in the ass to use this mon. Nasty Plot is cool but it isn't very easy to sweep when you absolutely earn the name SLOWking. Still it contributed enough to where I think B is possible, spamming Specs moves is probably more the way to go with this mon.
 
Double posting to drop some logs of a new run, featuring Spearow (Kenya), Nidoran M, Growlithe, and Staryu

Fearow (21): Aerial Ace 2hkos Clefairy. If you Leer Miltank once, it’ll outspeed and 3hko with Aerial Ace, whereas Stomp 4hkos you, but you will need to be at full HP to pull this off. Good mu.

Nidorino (19): Double Kick 2hkos Clefairy and 6hkos Miltank. You’re pretty much helpless against Miltank on your own but you can roll to Poison Point poison it (you’ll at least burn Lum for like a Butterfree or something) or lower its defense with Leer. Decent

Fearow (23): Ohko Gastly and Zubat with Aerial Ace. Bayleef is 2hkod. You can beat Magnemite but it’s easier just to avoid it. Good mu.

Nidoking (22): Ohkos Gastly, Zubat, and Magnemite with Shadow Claw, Fire Blast, and Dig, respectively. Bayleef is 2hkod by Fire Blast, make sure to click it twice as your other attacks won’t kill it after Reflect. Great mu.

Arcanine (21): Ohko everything with your fire moves. Flawless mu

Starmie (21): Blizzard into Surf kos Bayleef. It seems to prioritize Poison Powder and Reflect before Magical Leaf so you have a few chances in case you miss. Everything else is ohko’d by Surf. Great mu.

Everyone is 23

Fearow: Roll to ohko Gastly, 2hko Haunters, 4hko Gengar after berry. You outspeed everything except Gengar. Concerning the Gar matchup, since his only move to hit you is Sucker Punch, you can easily stall out his pp by spamming Leer, which will in turn make your Aerial Ace much stronger. So you will still beat everything with just a little trickery. Good mu.

Nidoking: Outspeed and ohko all the minor ghosts with Shadow Claw. Gengar is 3hkod through berry, but if you get a crit it’s an ohko. Gengar outspeeds you and can sleep you or just 2hko with Shadow Ball, so beating it ultimately depends on luck (either critting, Hypnosis missing, or other ai fuckery). Good mu.

Arcanine: Outspeed and ohko minor ghosts with Bite. Gengar is 2hkod by Fire Blast into Bite, but it outspeeds you and 2hkos with Shadow Ball so beating it depends on ai fuckery. Good mu.

Starmie: Outspeed and ohko minor ghosts with Surf. Ko on Haunter is a roll. Gengar outspeeds and ohkos with Shadow Ball. You likely 2-3hko gar if you can get it to click a move other than Shadow Ball but I couldn’t. Decent.

Fearow and Nido 26, rest 25

Fearow: Sharp Beak Aerial Ace ohkos Bat and 2hkos the rest. None of them can really threaten you bar a Hyper Fang crit or something. Great mu.

Nidoking: Ohko Bat and Koff with Fire Blast, 2hko Rat with Dig. Great mu.

Arcanine: Ohko Bat with Flame Wheel, Koff and Rat with Fire Blast.

Starmie: Specs Surf kos everything.

Starmie is 28, rest is 29

Fearow: 2hko Primeape, 3hko Poliwrath with Sharp Beak Aerial Ace. Both have the ability to threaten you; Primeape speed ties and 2hkos with Rock Slide, and Wrath can Body Slam para or sleep you. However, they like to click Focus Punch a lot, so you have the opportunity to succeed. Ultimately a clean sweep will rely on the ai being dumb. Decent/good.

Nidoking: Outspeed and 2hko Primeape with Dig. Although Double Team can get annoying, Ape can’t really touch you back, so you can afford to duke it out. Thunder 3hkos Poliwrath whereas Surf 2hkos. Decent.

Arcanine: Outspeed and ohko Primeape with Fire Blast. Useless against Poliwrath except to Intimidate spam. Decent.

Starmie: Set up Rain and click Thunder. You 2hko Primeape and, surprisingly, 3hko Poliwrath after berry. You’ll need to set up rain at least twice, and are threatened by Hypnosis, rain-boosted Surf, and Body Slam paras. Decent/good.

Everyone 29

Fearow: Can’t do reasonable damage to anything. Terrible mu.

Nidoking: There are a few ways to approach this battle. The first two involve using Choice Specs. The first is just to click Fire Blast; this will ohko the Mags and 2hko Lix, but has issues concerning accuracy. The second option is specs Surf; this has perfect accuracy and maintains the 2hko on Lix but comes short of ohkoing the Mags which can get annoying if they confuse you. The third avoids Choice Specs altogether, opting to ohko the Mags with Dig, and I think this is the most optimal choice of action. Fire Blast will still 2hko Lix even without Charcoal and you have a risk-free method of ohkoing the Mags. Ultimately all three of these methods proved effective in beating Jasmine but I would prefer method 3 and 1 because fuck Supersonic. Good mu.

Arcanine: Fire moves ohko everything. Fantastic mu.

Starmie: Specs Surf ohkos everything. Fantastic mu.

Everyone 30

Fearow: Beats Seel but loses to Dewgong and Piloswine without Leers, which are hard to get in the face of Aurora Beams and Blizzards. Poor mu.

Nidoking: With Specs Thunder / Fire Blast / Focus Blast even Nidoking has the opportunity to deal massive damage, ohkoing Seel and 2hkoing Dewgong / Piloswine. The issue in this mu is the inherent accuracy issues as well as how punishing it can be for Nidoking to miss, as it takes massive damage from Dewgong and Piloswine’s attacks. It also has to play around being Specs locked (this is where Focus Blast is useful but not ohkoing Seel is annoying). Overall decent.

Arcanine: Spam Dig to kill Seel and ohko Piloswine with Fire Blast. Seel can’t really touch you but if you miss against Piloswine Mud Bomb will suck hard. Dewgong is unbeatable. Decent/good, depending on how much you value killing Piloswine.

Starmie: Set up Rain and sweep. Setting up on Seel is minorly annoying because it’ll click Hail t1 against you but after that it’ll click Icy Wind and even at -1 you’ll outspeed and click Thunder. Thunder is a roll to ko Seel (guaranteed w Magnet), Surf ohkos Piloswine, and Thunder 2hkos Dewgong. At -1 speed Dewgong outspeeds but it ain’t doing shit back so it doesn’t really matter. Great mu.

Fearow is 31, rest 30

Fearow: 3hko Koffing, 4hko Weezing with Return. Sludges really hurt. Terrible mu.

Nidoking: Specs Surf ohkos Koffings, 3hkos Weezing. 2 Smokescreens can get annoying but Weezing otherwise fails to harm you without resorting to boom. Good mu.

Arcanine: Fire Blast ohkos Koffings and puts Weezing in red, but due to pp you obviously can’t sweep with this move. Flame Wheel meanwhile only 2hkos the Koffings, giving them enough time to hax you out. Decent mu, saved by beating Weezing.

Starmie: Specs Surf ohkos Koffings, 2hkos Weezing. At most you’re exposed to one Smokescreen or a Sludge poison, but otherwise great mu.

Thoughts so far:

:Fearow: - Started out strong but has since started to dip. Fearow lacks strong attacks and the bulk to stick around, meaning it very quickly runs into issues in mus where it isn't ohkoing / 2hkoing things that can heavily threaten it back. Traded xp is nice and so is its ability to clean through route trainers but its major battle performance has been decidedly poor since leaving the warehouse and idk if it's gonna pick back up.

:Nidoking: - On paper, Nidoking is super potent. Having the theoretical coverage to hit something supereffectively in almost every mu is a very attractive trait. In practice however, I'm not sure this is sustainable. When testing, it's super easy to just pick the most optimal coverage for every mu, as you can simply spawn infinite tms / infinite money / whatever you want, as the point is simply the judge the pokemon's matchup. In a casual playthrough, however, the player will have to use these tms wisely, deciding when to pop the normal ones and when to buy the ones you obtain from the department store (the elemental tms, plus Focus Blast ig). The former you only get once and the latter cost 5500 pokebucks a pop, making moveset and money management a notable part of using Nidoking. You could, theoretically, just spend all your money on tms and not give a shit, but I think the more optimal strategy is just to pick the most optimal coverage relative to the rest of your team, judging which mus Nido succeeds in the most and selecting your movepool around that, and compensating for what coverage you lack with your teammates. Nido's done well for me thus far, so maybe this effort will be worth it. Also Pokeathalon sucks.

:Arcanine: - Is it just me or is this mon hard to get? Like, 15% isn't that common, and ideally you'll want a Growlithe with Intimidate (and in my case, one without dogshit ivs, no pun intended). There's also Pokeathalon which you have to do, which is always fun. But if you choose to just blow your load early at level 20, Arcanine does pretty well. The fantastic stats pull their weight very early, and Arcanine has decent enough coverage in Fire / Ground / Dark in tandem with that power shreds through the midgame shitters. The downside to this strategy is the lack of Flamethrower, which you need a level 34 Growlithe to obtain. However, I think Flame Wheel is a good enough substitute; in my experience with Magmar, I found myself spamming Fire Blast against the strong mons anyways, while reserving Flamethrower for the weaker shitters that I expect Flame Wheel to ko anyways (think Koga's bugs, for example). I know Ryota did a run with Growlithe testing both strategies, so you can check out his logs if you're interested in Flamethrower.

:Starmie: - I had my personal beef with Growlithe but Staryu is just objectively difficult to obtain. 3%, with Good Rod, and at night? AND you need to do Pokeathalon to get the Water Stone? AAANNNDDDD you need backtrack for Rain Dance and MysticWater? This thing is a pain in the ass to get going, but once you do, it does certainly get going. ThunderDance is a broken combo and Starmie wields it well, and with its high speed and special attack it can sweep either with that or just specs Surf. It's a little disappointing against Chuck unfortunately, but hey, we can't all be perfect.
 
Espeon -----> S Rank

Pretty much the exact same thing as Alakazam - Focus Blast (not even going to unironically entertain the idea of using that ingame because of its terrible accuracy and low pp) except it doesn't need trading/romhack giving trade evos an alternative method.

Soothe bell being nearby, hair cutting in Goldenrod, day care to get to at least lv 14 to have confusion as soon Eevee evolves in the next level and to make it catch up fast means it doesn't need any babying, having the bike to quickly get a ton of steps for happiness, and the department store for a vitamin or 2 make the evolution requirement trivial.

All of this was done mostly using choice specs and metronome (the item) because this says nothing about not using game corner items and it is by far the best option in fights that are not click a single move to win.

Using confusion a few times is really hard. Sand attack can be used if someone is afraid of gengar hitting shadow balls, even though it will probably won't kill you before you do with confusion.

Set at this point confusion, hyper beam (filler emergency move that is not really used and only here for style points) sand attack, quick attack.
Literally the exact same as Morty - the sand attack part.

Same set as last time but shadow ball replaced quick attack.
Only time so far where Espeon doesn't just click 1 move to win without item set up, and that is fine because there are 5 other pokemon as an option for a reason and something must have surf at this point and should be used to deal with Steelix anyway.

If you really, really want to do beat her with Espeon there is a reason why Sand Attack is still in the moveset that is even more effective than it should be because of the awful accuracy of Steelix's moves. This is how you cheese the matchups you have no business winning, though that only really applies here and Karen's Houndoom, the latter of which you are better off using something else regardless.
Back to just using psychic move until everyone dies, something that is incredibly easy thanks to Pryce pokemon doing like no real damage to you.

Confusion got upgraded to psybeam before this battle because turns out team rocket is a great source of exp for a psychic pokemon. Rest of the set is the same, but that will change soon.
Sand Attack was nice while it lasted, but from now on it will be replaced with Reflect. Reflect on Gyarados and use 2 of the x item for special attack (not really different from using calm mind if Espeon had it and are super cheap too) then procceed to kill the rest of her team with the metronome boosted psybeams. Some healing was done in the set up phase because hey, Gyarados has bite.
The reason for Espeon having shadow ball is finally here. Item swapped to specs because you don't need anything else in this fight
Only real threat in this entire fight is Foretress exploding. Everything else should be ohkoed by psybeam. Item is still choice specs because you only need one move and will stay that way until Karen.
What if Chuck had more pokemon and still got destroyed by your current psychic move? This is exactly that fight.
Back to metronome, though Espeon is better sitting this one out. Umbreon is too bulky for it and can outskill you with confuse ray, Vileplume and Gengar are non threats regardless, Murkrow is a coin toss even with sand attack cheese if you still had it, Houndoom is theoretically doable with sand attack cheese if you still have it but your best move against is hyper beam that won't really do enough without boosts.
Pretty much the same exact strat as Clair with 1 full restore in the set up phase.

Final level for Espeon 47 thanks to all of its easy wins and a few hidden rare candies picked up along the way.

Ekans -----> F rank, it is that bad.

Probably the worst non joke/gimmick mon in the entire game. Only real utility this disgrace has in the entire run is shed skin allowing to outskill Morty's hypnosis and its access to Crunch as soon it evolves, but that is the only real positive when it does laughable damage otherwise thanks to its pathetic movepool, lack of real stab until sludge bomb that comes from its lower offensive stat anyway, and low attack stat. In every single fight there is not even a single time where you would go "yeah, I'm using Ekans/Arbok instead of anything remotely useful"

Furret’s placement should not be held accountable for Raticate’s performances. Each Pokémon is tested in their own individual performances.
Click to expand...
Except that is not how tier lists work. Being a worse version of something is always a reason for something to be ranked way lower, especially when it is something with the same availability as said superior option and when nobody would use as anything but as an hm slave by the average person that actually plays these games in a natural way. And yes, the latter is a valid reason when this post unironically has "b-but what if a casual sees this and they see a starter in the bottom ranks" as a reason for not dropping Meganium lower.
 
Except that unlike Alakazam Espeon doesn't need 2 ds or a hack changing the evolution condition to even exist. This is a really significant difference and doesn't rely on arbitrary "only trading for evo instead of getting something else/something that is way better lol."
 
ceal said:
Miltank: Get up to +3 Defense Curls as Dragon Rage takes you to red, potion up and start rolling out. At +3, Rollout 1 and 2 ko Gyara as it brings you to yellow.
Click to expand...

I broadly agree with your noms but what did the second and third Defense Curl accomplish here? The first one doubles Rollout’s power but the others don’t increase that effect, nor is the extra Defense useful against Clair.

TROP said:
Except that unlike Alakazam Espeon doesn't need 2 ds or a hack changing the evolution condition to even exist. This is a really significant difference and doesn't rely on arbitrary "only trading for evo instead of getting something else/something that is way better lol."
Click to expand...

The viability rankings in these lists reflect the utility of each mon assuming that a player has already decided to use it and that they are capable of obtaining it. Accordingly, the trade requirement isn’t factored into the ranking; either you have access to a second DS for trading, in which case you can read the ranking for ‘Abra (trade)’, or you don’t, in which case you can read the ranking for ‘Abra (no trade)’.
 
Last edited:
TROP said:
Except that unlike Alakazam Espeon doesn't need 2 ds or a hack changing the evolution condition to even exist. This is a really significant difference and doesn't rely on arbitrary "only trading for evo instead of getting something else/something that is way better lol."
Click to expand...
No it just requires significantly more babying than Abra and is way harder to get than just having two DS's or a friend. The method of obtaining for Espeon is in no way better than Zam's. And Espeon is in no way as good or better than Zam.

Cobalt Empoleon said:
I broadly agree with your noms but what did the second and third Defense Curl accomplish here? The first one doubles Rollout’s power but the others don’t increase that effect, nor is the extra Defense useful against Clair.
Click to expand...
Honestly I thought the effect did increase :psywoke: Rollout mechanics are still weird to me. The third DCurl was absolute luxury though, I only got it cuz I knew I'd need to potion anyways and figured I'd grab it while I was there.
 
TROP said:
Espeon -----> S Rank

Pretty much the exact same thing as Alakazam - Focus Blast (not even going to unironically entertain the idea of using that ingame because of its terrible accuracy and low pp) except it doesn't need trading/romhack giving trade evos an alternative method.

Soothe bell being nearby, hair cutting in Goldenrod, day care to get to at least lv 14 to have confusion as soon Eevee evolves in the next level and to make it catch up fast means it doesn't need any babying, having the bike to quickly get a ton of steps for happiness, and the department store for a vitamin or 2 make the evolution requirement trivial.

All of this was done mostly using choice specs and metronome (the item) because this says nothing about not using game corner items and it is by far the best option in fights that are not click a single move to win.

Using confusion a few times is really hard. Sand attack can be used if someone is afraid of gengar hitting shadow balls, even though it will probably won't kill you before you do with confusion.

Set at this point confusion, hyper beam (filler emergency move that is not really used and only here for style points) sand attack, quick attack.
Literally the exact same as Morty - the sand attack part.

Same set as last time but shadow ball replaced quick attack.
Only time so far where Espeon doesn't just click 1 move to win without item set up, and that is fine because there are 5 other pokemon as an option for a reason and something must have surf at this point and should be used to deal with Steelix anyway.

If you really, really want to do beat her with Espeon there is a reason why Sand Attack is still in the moveset that is even more effective than it should be because of the awful accuracy of Steelix's moves. This is how you cheese the matchups you have no business winning, though that only really applies here and Karen's Houndoom, the latter of which you are better off using something else regardless.
Back to just using psychic move until everyone dies, something that is incredibly easy thanks to Pryce pokemon doing like no real damage to you.

Confusion got upgraded to psybeam before this battle because turns out team rocket is a great source of exp for a psychic pokemon. Rest of the set is the same, but that will change soon.
Sand Attack was nice while it lasted, but from now on it will be replaced with Reflect. Reflect on Gyarados and use 2 of the x item for special attack (not really different from using calm mind if Espeon had it and are super cheap too) then procceed to kill the rest of her team with the metronome boosted psybeams. Some healing was done in the set up phase because hey, Gyarados has bite.
The reason for Espeon having shadow ball is finally here. Item swapped to specs because you don't need anything else in this fight
Only real threat in this entire fight is Foretress exploding. Everything else should be ohkoed by psybeam. Item is still choice specs because you only need one move and will stay that way until Karen.
What if Chuck had more pokemon and still got destroyed by your current psychic move? This is exactly that fight.
Back to metronome, though Espeon is better sitting this one out. Umbreon is too bulky for it and can outskill you with confuse ray, Vileplume and Gengar are non threats regardless, Murkrow is a coin toss even with sand attack cheese if you still had it, Houndoom is theoretically doable with sand attack cheese if you still have it but your best move against is hyper beam that won't really do enough without boosts.
Pretty much the same exact strat as Clair with 1 full restore in the set up phase.

Final level for Espeon 47 thanks to all of its easy wins and a few hidden rare candies picked up along the way.

Ekans -----> F rank, it is that bad.

Probably the worst non joke/gimmick mon in the entire game. Only real utility this disgrace has in the entire run is shed skin allowing to outskill Morty's hypnosis and its access to Crunch as soon it evolves, but that is the only real positive when it does laughable damage otherwise thanks to its pathetic movepool, lack of real stab until sludge bomb that comes from its lower offensive stat anyway, and low attack stat. In every single fight there is not even a single time where you would go "yeah, I'm using Ekans/Arbok instead of anything remotely useful"


Except that is not how tier lists work. Being a worse version of something is always a reason for something to be ranked way lower, especially when it is something with the same availability as said superior option and when nobody would use as anything but as an hm slave by the average person that actually plays these games in a natural way. And yes, the latter is a valid reason when this post unironically has "b-but what if a casual sees this and they see a starter in the bottom ranks" as a reason for not dropping Meganium lower.
Click to expand...
It’s how this list works and honestly seems to be working fine as is. We test on the basis of the individuals own merits. Again, this means we don’t say “Raticate is great here, but Furret isn’t“. That’s obvious in some matchups. At the same time, Furret’s tiering should not be dependent on Raticate’s performances. That’s faulty information. If that concept seems to escape you, then I can’t help you there.

Espeon to S isn’t happening at all. Saying it’s a better Zam when you have to grind up a Level 5 which involves a backtrack, specific time of day, friendship, and then a TM (Shadow Ball). Just no. It’s easier to just get a Kadabra/Zam. Additionally, you have to evolve before 16. Tell me, do you know the best ways to get XP? Leveling up, participating in major fights, walking 255 steps, etc etc. Leveling up and being in Gym Fights give the biggest increases.

DS’s are cheap as hell where I live. $80 a pop.

The tier list isn’t being used to tell a person what to use, it’s simply telling them what is the best options in the game. You can use whatever you want and disregard the list entirely. A person can spend time grinding levels and basically having an S Rank performance through that advantage alone.
 
Kurona said:
Oh, to be able to consider that cheap...

Every time I’ve used Eevee it’s been a chore to get its friendship up in addition to catching its levels up. It’s not the worst thing but it’s hardly trivial.
Click to expand...
I mean, you could be spending more for it? I haven’t really check out my store that sells them due to COVID but that was the last time I saw their prices. They could have fallen but the point is moot. HGSS games are incredibly expensive if you purchase online (I’m talking well over $200 without a Walker, even more with one.) Most of the time it’s gonna be emulation anyways.

At best Espeon will land in C. The issue is we can’t jumpstart it with a Friend Ball which would have been a godsend and the amount of money and time that is used on a Level 5 who can’t even pass 16 due to STAB
 
Turdterra said:
DS’s are cheap as hell where I live. $80 a pop.
Click to expand...
Personally I would say that this sort of mentality should be avoided. While from my research DS's average around 40-60, that attitude for money is kinda uncomfy.

That being said from my experience Espeon is B tier at best. You have to put in a lot of effort for it, significant babying, for a worse Zam. I know we rate mainly on each pokemon's own merits, but not having Blast makes it wayyy worse than Zam. I even found Girafarig to be a better psychic myself. Being stuck with Psybeam is not fun.

My run logs will be up probably next week pending irl stuff, but so far Gastly's baby period is not even bad.
 
New run, this time with Rattata, Rocky (Trade), Nido-M, and Chinchou (ThunderDance).

Rattata (12)
  • Rat uses Focus Energy. Pidgey goes for Tackle. QA 2HKO’s it
  • QA chips Pidgeotto for a little damage and Rat out-speeds it without priority, but it cannot KO it even at -2 Defense
  • Otto 3HKO’s back with Tackle
  • Meh mu
Rocky (9)
  • Otto out-speeds and uses Roost while Rocky uses Screech. Otto Roosts again back to full HP. Rocky 2/3HKO’s after one Screech with Rock Throw
  • I forgot to test Rocky against his Pidgey, but I doubt it was a bad matchup.
  • Good mu overall

Rocky (16)
  • Rocky uses Screech on Zubat. Supersonic misses
  • RT OHKO’s Zubat – Leveled up to 17 à even without Screech, Rock Throw is still a 1HKO
  • Koffing posions with Smog – Screech once from Rocky; RT is a 2/3HKO depending on roll
  • Good mu
Rattata (15)
  • Set up Focus Energy, Zubat misses Supersonic. QA OHKO’s Zubat even without a crit
  • QA chips Koffing which tries to use Poison Gas (miss) and Smog fails to poison Rattata too. After 2 Tail Whips, QA can 3HKO Koffing. On another attempt, it managed to 2HKO Koffing with a Guts boost
  • Good mu

Rocky (17)
Item: Shell Bell
  • Gastly uses Mean Look while Rocky uses RT (2HKO)
  • Zubat is OHKO’d by RT
  • Rocky misses RT on Quilava. It uses Leer (lol) and RT 2HKO’s it
  • Good/decent mu depending on what starter your rival chose. I know that Croconaw can OHKO Rocky from Ryota’s run. Judging by how much damage Rocky took in Sprout Tower even at a higher level, I’m assuming that Bayleef performs similarly with Razor Leaf.
Rattata (15)
Attempt 1:
  • Rat’s Bite OHKO’s Gastly
  • Quilava comes out, surprisingly. I decide to go for Focus Energy, just in case I don’t get a chance. Quil out-speeds Rat and uses Leer.
  • QA chips Quil (barely) and it starts spamming Smokescreen. I try to lower its Defense with Tail Whip which was a mistake since it ended up getting Rat to -6 Accuracy and possibly -2 or -3 Defense
  • Quil uses QA and easily 2HKO’s Rat (RIP)
Attempt 2:
  • Gastly uses Curse after Rat sets up Focus energy – brings Rat down to yellow HP, but I still OHKO it with Bite. Leveled up to 16
  • Switch out and heal Rat on Quil’s QA, expecting a possible Leer/Smoke.
  • With Hyper Fang, Rat can now 3HKO Quil – to avoid a possible Smoke, I went QA after 2 Fangs
  • Quil did manage to Leer, but I got lucky and managed to flinch it with the 2nd Fang
  • Zubat’s Bite is a 3HKO, but Rat can out-speed and 2HKO’s it with Fang + QA
  • Good matchup, but you need Hyper Fang to beat him it seems. Otherwise, he out-damages and haxes Rat to death

Rattata (18)
  • Scyther out-speeds Rat and 2HKO’s with U-Turn.
  • Hyper Fang + QA 2HKO’s Metapod
  • Scyther switches back in and is only chipped by QA. It then KO’s Rat
  • Kakuna never switched in on Rat, but I doubt it has any issues against it. It plays nearly exactly the same as Metapod, just with a chance to poison you.
  • Meh matchup, but not a lot of Mons can solo Bugsy’s Scyther tbh
Rocky (17)
  • Kakuna comes out. Rocky uses Screech and OHKO’s it with RT. Without a Screech, it’s a 2HKO
  • Scyther uses Focus Energy – Rocky 2HKO’s it with RT after Sitrus Berry. Screech turns it into an OHKO
  • RT is a 2HKO on Pod without using Screech
  • Good mu again for Rocky

Rocky (21)
  • RT dents Clefairy for about a quarter of its HP from full without Screech. After Screech, it 2HKO’s Clef with ease
  • Miltank out-speeds Rocky and hits it with Attract. Rocky uses Screech followed by Rock Tomb which appears to be a 4HKO. Miltank starts using Stomp while I continue to use Tomb (x3).
  • At -3 Speed, Miltank can no longer out-speed Rocky. Unfortunately, Attract is still an issue for Rocky, but you can stall out the Milk Drink spam.
  • After 3 Screeches, you can 2HKO Miltank.
  • Decent mu. Rocky should never be KO’d by Miltank, but it does take some time to bring the cow down. I don’t know if Dig would make this matchup any better because you will eventually get hit by Attract at some point.
Nidorino (20)
  • Picked up a Nidoran-M with a Hasty nature on Route 35, ability is Poison Point. It’s also holding a Quick Claw
  • Nido out-speeds Clefairy and 2HKO’s it with a crit Double Kick
  • Miltank out-speeds and 3HKO’s Nido with Stomp. Even with a crit, Double Kick only chips away at Miltank’s HP.
  • Whitney heals Miltank once with a potion, and Nido procs its Lum Berry with Poison Point. After that, Miltank uses Attract and it’s pretty much GG for Nido.
  • Bad mu. Poison Point can potentially help weaken Miltank for another Mon on your team
Raticate (20)
  • Rat uses Tail Whip while Clef goes for Metronome (Flail). Hyper Fang OHKO’s it
  • Rat out-speeds Miltank and uses Tail Whip. Miltank goes for Attract while Rat’s Hyper Fang becomes a 2/3HKO
  • Stomp is a 3HKO, so Rat cannot take too many hits from Miltank.
  • After two Whips, Hyper Fang + QA becomes a clean 2HKO
  • Good mu, but I wish I had picked up a female Ratatta. Attract can screw over your chance at a sweep.

Overall Thoughts:
  • So far, I think that Rattata has been pretty good. Not sure if I could call it an A-tier Mon, will depend on future matches
  • Rocky demonstrates its solid early-game performance, though it’s route-clearing ability is a little underwhelming I do not consider that a huge flaw. I’ll see it how holds up in the mid-game
  • Just got Nidoran-M, so I’ll hold off on any judgments for now.
  • More logs coming... Hopefully in the next few weeks.
Note: IV’s listed as HP/Attack/Defense/Sp. Atk/Sp. Def/Speed.

Rattata (Male)
Nature: Naive
Ability: Guts
IVs: 9/27/12/1/24/25 – Not bad

Rocky
IVs: 25/20/25/15/15/15 – Solid all-around

Nidoran-M
Nature: Hasty
Ability: Poison Point
IVs: 18/3/25/19/12/9 – That Atk IV is god-awful, same with its Speed. Not bad for Sp. Atk/Defense tho.
 
Blufyr3 said:
New run, this time with Rattata, Rocky (Trade), Nido-M, and Chinchou (ThunderDance).

Rattata (12)
  • Rat uses Focus Energy. Pidgey goes for Tackle. QA 2HKO’s it
  • QA chips Pidgeotto for a little damage and Rat out-speeds it without priority, but it cannot KO it even at -2 Defense
  • Otto 3HKO’s back with Tackle
  • Meh mu
Rocky (9)
  • Otto out-speeds and uses Roost while Rocky uses Screech. Otto Roosts again back to full HP. Rocky 2/3HKO’s after one Screech with Rock Throw
  • I forgot to test Rocky against his Pidgey, but I doubt it was a bad matchup.
  • Good mu overall

Rocky (16)
  • Rocky uses Screech on Zubat. Supersonic misses
  • RT OHKO’s Zubat – Leveled up to 17 à even without Screech, Rock Throw is still a 1HKO
  • Koffing posions with Smog – Screech once from Rocky; RT is a 2/3HKO depending on roll
  • Good mu
Rattata (15)
  • Set up Focus Energy, Zubat misses Supersonic. QA OHKO’s Zubat even without a crit
  • QA chips Koffing which tries to use Poison Gas (miss) and Smog fails to poison Rattata too. After 2 Tail Whips, QA can 3HKO Koffing. On another attempt, it managed to 2HKO Koffing with a Guts boost
  • Good mu

Rocky (17)
Item: Shell Bell
  • Gastly uses Mean Look while Rocky uses RT (2HKO)
  • Zubat is OHKO’d by RT
  • Rocky misses RT on Quilava. It uses Leer (lol) and RT 2HKO’s it
  • Good/decent mu depending on what starter your rival chose. I know that Croconaw can OHKO Rocky from Ryota’s run. Judging by how much damage Rocky took in Sprout Tower even at a higher level, I’m assuming that Bayleef performs similarly with Razor Leaf.
Rattata (15)
Attempt 1:
  • Rat’s Bite OHKO’s Gastly
  • Quilava comes out, surprisingly. I decide to go for Focus Energy, just in case I don’t get a chance. Quil out-speeds Rat and uses Leer.
  • QA chips Quil (barely) and it starts spamming Smokescreen. I try to lower its Defense with Tail Whip which was a mistake since it ended up getting Rat to -6 Accuracy and possibly -2 or -3 Defense
  • Quil uses QA and easily 2HKO’s Rat (RIP)
Attempt 2:
  • Gastly uses Curse after Rat sets up Focus energy – brings Rat down to yellow HP, but I still OHKO it with Bite. Leveled up to 16
  • Switch out and heal Rat on Quil’s QA, expecting a possible Leer/Smoke.
  • With Hyper Fang, Rat can now 3HKO Quil – to avoid a possible Smoke, I went QA after 2 Fangs
  • Quil did manage to Leer, but I got lucky and managed to flinch it with the 2nd Fang
  • Zubat’s Bite is a 3HKO, but Rat can out-speed and 2HKO’s it with Fang + QA
  • Good matchup, but you need Hyper Fang to beat him it seems. Otherwise, he out-damages and haxes Rat to death

Rattata (18)
  • Scyther out-speeds Rat and 2HKO’s with U-Turn.
  • Hyper Fang + QA 2HKO’s Metapod
  • Scyther switches back in and is only chipped by QA. It then KO’s Rat
  • Kakuna never switched in on Rat, but I doubt it has any issues against it. It plays nearly exactly the same as Metapod, just with a chance to poison you.
  • Meh matchup, but not a lot of Mons can solo Bugsy’s Scyther tbh
Rocky (17)
  • Kakuna comes out. Rocky uses Screech and OHKO’s it with RT. Without a Screech, it’s a 2HKO
  • Scyther uses Focus Energy – Rocky 2HKO’s it with RT after Sitrus Berry. Screech turns it into an OHKO
  • RT is a 2HKO on Pod without using Screech
  • Good mu again for Rocky

Rocky (21)
  • RT dents Clefairy for about a quarter of its HP from full without Screech. After Screech, it 2HKO’s Clef with ease
  • Miltank out-speeds Rocky and hits it with Attract. Rocky uses Screech followed by Rock Tomb which appears to be a 4HKO. Miltank starts using Stomp while I continue to use Tomb (x3).
  • At -3 Speed, Miltank can no longer out-speed Rocky. Unfortunately, Attract is still an issue for Rocky, but you can stall out the Milk Drink spam.
  • After 3 Screeches, you can 2HKO Miltank.
  • Decent mu. Rocky should never be KO’d by Miltank, but it does take some time to bring the cow down. I don’t know if Dig would make this matchup any better because you will eventually get hit by Attract at some point.
Nidorino (20)
  • Picked up a Nidoran-M with a Hasty nature on Route 35, ability is Poison Point. It’s also holding a Quick Claw
  • Nido out-speeds Clefairy and 2HKO’s it with a crit Double Kick
  • Miltank out-speeds and 3HKO’s Nido with Stomp. Even with a crit, Double Kick only chips away at Miltank’s HP.
  • Whitney heals Miltank once with a potion, and Nido procs its Lum Berry with Poison Point. After that, Miltank uses Attract and it’s pretty much GG for Nido.
  • Bad mu. Poison Point can potentially help weaken Miltank for another Mon on your team
Raticate (20)
  • Rat uses Tail Whip while Clef goes for Metronome (Flail). Hyper Fang OHKO’s it
  • Rat out-speeds Miltank and uses Tail Whip. Miltank goes for Attract while Rat’s Hyper Fang becomes a 2/3HKO
  • Stomp is a 3HKO, so Rat cannot take too many hits from Miltank.
  • After two Whips, Hyper Fang + QA becomes a clean 2HKO
  • Good mu, but I wish I had picked up a female Ratatta. Attract can screw over your chance at a sweep.

Overall Thoughts:
  • So far, I think that Rattata has been pretty good. Not sure if I could call it an A-tier Mon, will depend on future matches
  • Rocky demonstrates its solid early-game performance, though it’s route-clearing ability is a little underwhelming I do not consider that a huge flaw. I’ll see it how holds up in the mid-game
  • Just got Nidoran-M, so I’ll hold off on any judgments for now.
  • More logs coming... Hopefully in the next few weeks.
Note: IV’s listed as HP/Attack/Defense/Sp. Atk/Sp. Def/Speed.

Rattata (Male)
Nature: Naive
Ability: Guts
IVs: 9/27/12/1/24/25 – Not bad

Rocky
IVs: 25/20/25/15/15/15 – Solid all-around

Nidoran-M
Nature: Hasty
Ability: Poison Point
IVs: 18/3/25/19/12/9 – That Atk IV is god-awful, same with its Speed. Not bad for Sp. Atk/Defense tho.
Click to expand...
Don’t worry about how long it takes you to complete a test.
 
The run is over boys

Fearow and Starmie 32, rest 31

Fearow: 3hko Golbat and Magnemite, 2hko Sneasel, Haunter, and Meganium. Meganium is actually way harder to beat because of Reflect and Synthesis spam, and Sneasel will outspeed you and leave you at red. You can still beat Bat and Mag but you’ll take status for it. Overall decent.

Nidoking: 3hko Bat with Fire Blast or Return. Mag is ohkod. Haunter and Sneasel are 2hkod by Shadow Ball / Dig or Fire Blast, respectively. Meganium is a 3hko with Fire Blast, whereas Petal Dance is a roll to 2hko back. Decent.

Arcanine: 2hko Golbat with FB into Flame Wheel, ohkos everything else (Meganium is a roll). Great mu.

Starmie: Specs Blizzard ohkos Golbat (Surf is more accurate but only 2hkos), switch out of Meganium immediately as Blizzard fails to ohko and Petal Dance knocks you right out. After that, Specs Surf ohkos Mag and Haunter, and 2hkos Sneasel, though the latter outspeeds and 2hkos you. Decent, perhaps with better IVs this could be called good.

Fearow 34, Arcanine 32, rest 33

Fearow: 2hko Golbat, 3hko Weezing. Beating Weezing is possible but Sludge hurts a lot so it’s not likely without debuffing with Leer first. Decent.

Nidoking: Specs Shadow Ball 2hkos both. Dealing with hax from either mon can suck but you should be good. Good mu.

Arcanine: Fire Blast ohkos Golbat and is a roll to ko on Weezing. Great mu

Starmie: Specs Surf ohkos both. Flawless

Levels are the same

Fearow: Return 2hkos after Intimidate fodder but if Glare hits it can get annoying. Fly ohkos Murkrow and Vileplume. Good mu.

Nidoking: After dodging Intimidate, Dig ohkos Arbok. Murkrow is 2hkod by Return and Vileplume is kod by Fire Blast into Dig. Worst you’ll need is an Awakening. Good mu.

Arcanine: Fire Blast into any move kos Arbok, you’re gonna have to take a Glare unless you’re lucky. Fire Blast ohkos the rest. Good mu.

Starmie: Specs Surf ohkos Arbok and Murkrow. Specs Blizzard ohkos Vileplume. Good mu.

Fearow 34, rest 33

Fearow: Fly okos Houndour, 2hkos the rest. You can get unlucky with burns or poisons but otherwise you’ll be left at red after your sweep. Good mu.

Nidoking: Dig ohkos Houndour and 2hkos Houndoom. Koffing is 2hkod by Fire Blast into Shadow Ball. Specs Surf is also an option but it achieves the same result. Good mu.

Arcanine: Same story as Nidoking but you ohko the Koffing with Fire Blast. Good mu.

Starmie: Outspeed and ohko the babies with Specs Surf. Houndoom is a speed tie but you live and Surf still ohkos. Great mu.

Fearow and Starmie are 36, rest 35

Fearow: Beats one Dragonair on its own. Will need to be healed for the second one. Not worth it for the others. Decent/bad.

Nidoking: Thunder puts Gyarados in red. Kingdra blanks. Dragonairs get ohkod by Avalanche and even Aqua Tail won’t ohko Nido. Potion necessary to handle both Gyara and the Nairs. Good mu.

Arcanine: Worthless basically. Blanked by Gyara and Kingdra and the Nairs are 3hkod by Dig, who Twave you and other nasty shit.

Starmie: Specs Thunder ohkos Gyarados and Blizzard ohkos the Nairs. Avoid Kingdra. Good mu.

Everyone is 38

Fearow: Quite good here. 2hko Sneasel, Golbat, and Meganium (before Reflect). Kadabra and Haunter are ohkod by Return and Fly, respectively. Magneton is avoided for obvious reasons. I also would recommend avoiding Sneasel, as it has the potential to use Icy Wind which not only will force you to take more damage against it (this will come up when spamming your attacks against Meganium behind Reflect) but also leaves you slower than the rest of his team. Despite this, good performance.

Nidoking: 2hko Sneasel, Golbat, Meganium, and Haunter with the respective coverage. With specs you could ohko all these but for a clean sweep it’ll force you to switch around a lot. Magneton gets ohkod obviously. Kadabra outspeeds you and can 2hko you with psybeam, whereas you 2hko with Shadow Ball, but it also has a chance to Reflect, in which case you will win. Overall good mu.

Arcanine: Ohko Sneasel, Meganium, Haunter, and Magneton with your fire moves. Kadabra is ohkod by just Bite and Golbat is 2hkod. Great mu.

Starmie: Specs Surf usually ohkos Sneasel (one time it didn’t ko, so it seems to be a roll extremely in your favor) and clean ohko Kadabra, Magneton, and Haunter. Golbat is 2hkod. Meganium is the same scenario as last time. Great mu.

Nido is 42, rest 41

Fearow: 2hko Xatus, Jynx, and Eggy. Slowbro is 4hkod normally and Curse makes it even worse. Everything will 2hko you back so without items you’ll get maybe one mon at most. Poor mu.

Nidoking: You absolutely need Specs to be of note here. Specs Thunder ohkos the Xatus, Fire Blast ohkos Jynx and Eggy, and Shadow Ball 2hkos Slowbro (Thunder achieves the same result and I personally missed five times in a roll against Slowbro so if that’s anything to go by, don’t try it). The issues in this mu are that you’ll need to switch around often and the inaccuracy of the moves necessary to ohko these mons. You won’t be ohkod by any Psychics bar Eggy’s, but taking any damage at all will likely null your sweep. Decent mu.

Arcanine: Bite is a roll to 2hko Xatus (Bite into Fire Blast achieves the same result but depending on your view is more reliable), Jynx and Eggy get roasted by fire moves. Slowbro is an L. Good mu.

Starmie: Set up rain and sweep. I highly recommend equipping a Persim berry for this mu as getting Confuse Ray’d makes it really annoying. Thunder is a roll to ohko on Xatu 1, but this does not seem to be the case with Xatu 2. Eggy barely lives a Blizzard. Slowbro is 2hkod by Thunder. Jynx is 2hkod by Surf in Rain. Considering how frail Starmie is (even ressited attacks will add up, and there are several moves Will carries that will hit Starmie super effectively) and the potential for Confuse Ray bs (Xatu 2 will more than likely get the confusion off on you), this is a hard sweep. Specs will allow for you to ohko Xatus / Eggy with Thunder / Blizzard, but accuracy issues are what they are. Decent mu.

Levels are the same

Fearow: Ohko Ariados and Venomoth with Fly. Forretress is far from ohkod but you can just click buttons against it and it will die lol. Muk and Crobat are no-gos. Decent mu.

Nidoking: Bugs are 2hkod by EQ, Forre is ohkod by Fire Blast, Muk is ohkod by EQ. Crobat is 3hkod by Thunder, glhf. Good mu.

Arcanine: Flame Wheel 2hkos the bugs, ohkos Forre. Muk is 3hkod by Dig factoring in Black Sludge. Crobat is 2hkod by Fire Blast but Double Team will make this very difficult. You can win as Intimidate makes its attacks bounce off but it’ll be very frustrating. Overall good mu.

Starmie: Set up rain and sweep. Under rain, Surf ohkos Ariados and Forre, and 2hkos Moth and Muk. Crobat is 2hkod by Thunder. While rain is up, Thunder will guaranteed hit no matter what, so you can use that to power through Muk and Crobat if they accrue a ton of evasion boosts. Good mu.

Fearow and Nido 42, rest 41

Fearow: Fly 2hkos Hitmontop, in order to avoid getting Counter’d you will need to Leer. Lee and Chan are ohkod. Machamp ohkos you with Rock Slide (which will still hit you in the air), Onix is obvious. Decent/poor.

Nidoking: Spam EQ to win. Against Top, Shadow Ball turn 1 (or any special move really) to avoid getting Counter’d, once it digs EQ will destroy it. Onix and Chan are 2hkod, and both will bring you down to yellow, so it’s advised you only take one of them (or heal in between). Lee is ohkod and Machamp is 2hkod but can’t touch you back. Good mu.

Arcanine: Top and Lee are 2hkod by Blast into Wheel. Machamp is 3hkod through berry and 2hkos you back with Rock Slide without Intimidate. Chan is 3hkod but can’t really harm you without an untimely para. Onix is avoided for obvious reasons. Decent.

Starmie: Spam Specs Surf to win. Top is usually 2hkod, and will Dig against you. If you take the Dig, Chan will be 3hkod, TPunch you to 1, and finish you off with Bullet Punch. Champ is 3hkod and will 3hkod you back, if he crits you’re probably fucked. Lee is 2hkod. Decent mu.

Starmie is 41, rest are 42.

Fearow: Umbreon is beatable but it is situation dependent. What you want to happen is: Umbreon clicks Double Team twice as you Leer once and begin spamming Aerial Ace. After 1 Ace Umbreon will begin to click Payback but by then you’ll ko it before it kos you. However it can easily only Double Team once or just general click Confuse Ray which will spoil this plan. Otherwise, you 2hko everything except Doom who outspeeds and ohkos, but note you will need considerable item support and luck to beat more than one member. Poor/decent.

Nidoking: EQ 4hkos Umbreon, don’t even try (Focus Blast is an option but it won’t ohko and Double Team will worsen its already shaky accuracy, making it very unreliable). Houndoom always Nasty Plots on you and you ohko with EQ. Murkrow is ohkod by Thunder. Shadow Ball 3hkos Gar but worst it can do is Destiny Bond you. EQ 2hkos Vileplume. Good mu.

Arcanine: Fire Blast 3hkos Umbreon, again not worth it. Dig 2hkos Doom while you barely avoid the ko from +2 Dark Pulse. Fire Blast into Bite ko Gar, be sure to Bite first so it doesn’t SPite away your precious Fire Blast pp (not that you’ll need it after this fight, I guess…). Krow and Plume are both ohkod by Fire Blast.

Starmie: Only pokemon this guy beats are Murkrow (ohkod by Thunder) and Gar (physically cannot touch you). Doom outspeeds and ohkos, Plume eats Blizzard and ohkos with Petal Dance, and glhf with Umbreon. Poor mu.

Fearow: Not gonna work. Simply too weak and frail to make any headway without significant support. I ALMOST beat the Thunder Dnite because it kept missing, but otherwise glhf.

Nidoking: You absolutely need specs to function, as even a NeverMeltIce Blizzard will stop just shore of ohkoing a Dnite. With it tho, you ohko Gyara with Thunder and the ThunderNite with Blizzard. The Blizzardnite outspeeds and ohkos whereas the FireNite is a roll to ko and ohkos you with Outrage. Aero and Zard are 2hkod by Thunder. Good enough, more notable than most Lance mus go.

Arcanine: lmao

Starmie: Even at 41, Starmie was capable of some stuff. Setting up rain on Gyara is easy and Magnet Thunder ohkod. You speed tie with ThunderNite and have a roll to ohko it with Blizzard, same with BlizNite. Aero will stop your sweep cold from this point on tho.

I did feel, however, like I had mismanaged Starmie’s levels somewhat, and so, FOR THE EXPRESSED PURPOSES OF TESTING, I artificially increased Starmie’s level to 43. The improvement was noticeable; Starmie more reliably kod the 49Nites (blizNite was still a roll, however) and even baited Aero into clicking TFang (I’m not sure why this happened as any other time it Crunch’d, but if you get this you’ll live even after a DPulse and ko it back). However it would still need some item support to sweep and you still lose to FireNite. Overall a good mu, I guess, you outspeed and threaten the majority of his mons which is far more than most mons can say for Lance, but it still won’t clean sweep without some help.

And now for my noms:

Spearow (Kenya) to C: Fearow is sporadically good, which translates to very inconsistent. Very strong at the get-go but quickly begins to fall off after Warehouse, Chuck is shaky and Jasmine and Pryce fuck it. From then on it has some high and some lows until being generally too weak at the E4 to contribute a whole lot. Fearow is just not very strong, it needs to hit things that are either super frail or weak to its stabs to deal good damage and its horrible movepool removes most chances for the latter. I feel like it could be argued even lower but it has some great value at the most random of times which I feel makes it worthy for C

Nidoran M to B: I don't think Nidoking, or the Nidos generally IG, should be as high as A. They have inconsistent power, require the pokeathalon to be usable pre-Surf, and are tm hogs. But I feel like they still perform adequately enough for B. Nidoking has been able to contribute in just about every mu it's been in, and even though that's been with the optimal coverage (which I explained in my prior post is unrealistic) it still generally pulls its weight well, doing especially well at the E4. Sniping scary shit like Koga's Muk, Karen's Houndoom, and having the capacity to go toe-to-toe with any of Lance's mons is super clutch and I think should be noted. Otherwise it really doesn't suffer in any mu.

Growlithe to C: Growlithe is a pretty good fire, as far as they go. After having used Magmar I'd say they performed on about the same level. I totally recommend evolving Growlithe by level 20, you hardly miss Flamethrower except maybe against Koga's bugs (and even then they have trouble actually harming you) and the reward of having a mon that strong that early is enormous. That said, it requires Pokeathalon, and I believe that's sufficient enough to knock it into C tier.

Staryu to B: This one I'm most torn on. On the one hand, Starmie did great for me up til the e4, it's fast, strong, and can do its Specs Surf thing to its heart's desire. On the other hand, it's a major pain in the ass to get and started slipping for me at the e4. I believe this can be attributed to my average IVs and my inability to level it up, but for one thing, getting solid IVs and a beneficial nature on a mon with a 3% encounter rate is fucking difficult, and for another, I was juggling several other pokemon that needed levels, and Starmie's slow experience group can make it hard to accrue levels without giving it special attention. Still, if you do give it that attention, its issues at the e4 will dissipate, holding a very notable mu vs Lance. Still though, the fact that it's a 3% encounter rate AND you need to do Pokeathalon AND you need to backtrack for MW and Rain Dance could bump it down to C. For now, however, I think a B rank is fine.

Finally, here are my IVs, since I neglected to include them in my last post:

Kenya.png
Spearow
NidoranM HGSS.png
Nidoran
Growlithe HGSS.png
Growlithe
Staryu HGSS.png
Staryu
 
ceal said:
Staryu to B: This one I'm most torn on. On the one hand, Starmie did great for me up til the e4, it's fast, strong, and can do its Specs Surf thing to its heart's desire. On the other hand, it's a major pain in the ass to get and started slipping for me at the e4. I believe this can be attributed to my average IVs and my inability to level it up, but for one thing, getting solid IVs and a beneficial nature on a mon with a 3% encounter rate is fucking difficult, and for another, I was juggling several other pokemon that needed levels, and Starmie's slow experience group can make it hard to accrue levels without giving it special attention. Still, if you do give it that attention, its issues at the e4 will dissipate, holding a very notable mu vs Lance. For now, however, I think a B rank is fine.
Click to expand...
Not that I disagree entirely with Staryu being B-tier, but I do find it interesting how poorly your Starmie performed compared to mine. I've never really considered IVs to be a huge factor during my in-game playthroughs because they are something completely beyond the average player's control. But, now I wish that I checked the IVs/EVs on my Starmie before I started a new run. Most of your battles matched up with mine for Starmie, even with the level difference up until the E4.

In particular, I found that my Starmie at Level 42 did very well against Karen. In fact, it had the best mu out of my entire team at the Elite 4 overall. But, yours failed to out-speed her Houndoom and could only beat the two weakest Mons on her team despite only being one level lower. Mine never speed-tied with Lance's D-Nites either. As a result of its overall solid performance, I do not consider Staryu a C-tier Mon, but I did have the advantage of owning a functional DS and HG cartridge. So, I can understand how this could affect its tiering.
 
Blufyr3 said:
Not that I disagree entirely with Staryu being B-tier, but I do find it interesting how poorly your Starmie performed compared to mine. I've never really considered IVs to be a huge factor during my in-game playthroughs because they are something completely beyond the average player's control. But, now I wish that I checked the IVs/EVs on my Starmie before I started a new run. Most of your battles matched up with mine for Starmie, even with the level difference up until the E4.

In particular, I found that my Starmie at Level 42 did very well against Karen. In fact, it had the best mu out of my entire team at the Elite 4 overall. But, yours failed to out-speed her Houndoom and could only beat the two weakest Mons on her team despite only being one level lower. Mine never speed-tied with Lance's D-Nites either. As a result of its overall solid performance, I do not consider Staryu a C-tier Mon, but I did have the advantage of owning a functional DS and HG cartridge. So, I can understand how this could affect its tiering.
Click to expand...
I imagine IVs were a big factor in my Starmie's performance vs other's. My Starmie had some average IVs (save for Special Attack, which was 21) and a kinda shitty nature (Naughty doesn't help obviously but it's not as outright cripping as a Brave nature would've been, for example), which I consciously made the decision to use; my reasoning was that, since it's a 3% encounter, anyone lucky enough to find Staryu is probably just gonna take the first half-decent one they got. I normally do IV scum with more common pokemon but Staryu was a bitch to find I'll just be honest. IV dependence can be a real gray are in tiering (Raticate is a good example) but on a pokemon that's so rare I think it should factor negatively into its ranking.
 
Question: is it at all worth it to try and get Extrasensory on Vulpix, or should it just be evolved ASAP after learning Flamethrower?
 
Scorpio said:
Question: is it at all worth it to try and get Extrasensory on Vulpix, or should it just be evolved ASAP after learning Flamethrower?
Click to expand...
Definitely evolve it. Ninetales's better stats heavily outclass Extrasensory. Not to mention that Koga and Bruno can theoritically be handled by NP + Flamethrower anyways.

(ftr, Extrasensory is at level 44, which is pmuch end-game levels)
 
Ryota Mitarai said:
Definitely evolve it. Ninetales's better stats heavily outclass Extrasensory. Not to mention that Koga and Bruno can theoritically be handled by NP + Flamethrower anyways.

(ftr, Extrasensory is at level 44, which is pmuch end-game levels)
Click to expand...
Forgot about NP, ty

Also would’ve figured Lv. 44 was post-game instead of end-game
 
hey, so since I pmuch tested everything for RB for the RBY list, I have decided to come back and help out a bit more. My goal for the next runs is to test whatever hasn't received a test / needs additional testing that comes before Rocket Tower. I did a run with Arbok / Ninetales / Weezing / Persian.

Logs are below and summaries are below it:

Falkner(12): outspeeds and 2HKOs Pidgey with Bite. Pidgeotto can be Glared and is 3HKOed by Bite after two Leers (4HKOed after one). Pidgeotto 3HKOs you with Tackle, though it's rolls for 4HKO. Against Pidgey, only watch out for Sand-Attack. To beat Pidgeotto, you will likely need to throw in a potion if you don't get lucky paralysis / flinches, but overall, the matchup is not that bad. I had Shed Skin (didn't even notice....) so matchup was worse

Proton #1 (17): Bite 2HKOs Zubat and 3HKOs Koffing

Bugsy (18 / 19): tried in two different levels to see if there's a difference. After a Leer, Scyther's QA easily becomes a 2HKO so you are not able to do much against him without hax, other than Glare it. However, a Bite after Screech is a 2HKO (Sitrus Beryy may or may not play a factor, depending on rolls). At level 19, the matchup isn't all that different, but the Scyther Leers twice instead of once, for some reason, so you have more chances to attack it I had Shed Skin (didn't even notice....) so matchup was worse

Silver #2 (20): was overleveled, so it performed better, but outspeeds and OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat with Bite. Bayleef is 3HKOed by Acid

Whitney(21): edited in Intimidate instead of Shed Skin. -1 Stomp 4HKOs Ekans. However, Bite after Screech is a 4HKO itself and you need to Glare twice to paralyze it. As an Arbok, it outspeeds and 3HKOs Miltank with Crunch after a Screech. If you are female, you will perform a lot better, as Stomp isn't 3HKOing you (I think it's a 6HKO) if you throw Arbok against Miltank

Silver #3 (23): Crunch OHKOs Gastly and 2HKOs Zubat, outspeeding them. Magnemite is OHKOed by Dig. Byeef can be muscled through with Screech + Crunch

Morty(25): bar Gengar, outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Crunch. Gengar is 2HKOed and can be Glared to make the matchup easier

Petrel #2 (28): Crunch 3HKOs Koffing and 2HKOs the rest

Chuck(30): avoid Primeape, as it is faster and haxes you to death with Double Team. Poliwrath is 3HKOed (4HKO with berry) by Dig after Screech and Surf seems to be around a 3HKO (though idr really), though Glare can help

Jasmine(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite, but is useless against Steelix, though you can Screech it

Pryce(30): Crunch 2HKOs Seel after a Screech and 3HKOs Dewgong after a Screech. Piloswine 2HKOs with Mud Bomb and is faster. Dewgong seems to 4HKO with Aurora Beam, but it's very close to a 3HKO. Dewgong is best fought at full HP to aim for the 4HKO. Them Resting can help a lot

Petrel #2 (32): Crunch 4HKOs Koffing, becomes a 2HKO with Screech and a 3HKO on Weezing. As a whole, I don't consider this a good matchup

Silver #4 (32): beats Haunter and Magnemite. Meganium can be beaten if you taught Sludge Bomb (I didn't), because it 3-4HKOs with Petal Dance and Screeching + Crunching here requires healing. Golbat requires a Screech to be 2HKOed by Crunch. Sneasel will often finish you off, though you can cripple it with Glare

Proton #2 (34): Crunch 2HKOs and 3HKOs Golbat and Weezing after a Screech. Weezing spams Smokescreen, so avoid that

Ariana(34): even after a Screech, Dig doesn't OHKO Arbok unles you avoided Intimidate. -1 Crunch 3HKOs Vileplume after a Screech and Murkrow seems to be a 3-4HKO, which spams Night Shade and forces you to heal. Not a great matchup, as a whole

Archer(34): Dig OHKOs Houndour and 2HKOs the rest. Crunch 2HKOs Koffing after a Screech. Houndoom 2HKOs with Fire Fang, so it generally beats you as it's faster, but you can Glare it for a teammate (or for you to heal)

Clair(36): Crunch 2HKOs Dragonair after Screech, which 3HKOs with Dragon Pulse. The rest are not good matchups, but can be paralyzed with Glare

Silver #5 (39): EQ OHKOs Sneasel on rolls after Screech. EQ OHKOs Magneton. Crunch OHKOs Haunter, which Curses. Golbat is 2HKOed by Crunch after Screech. Kadabra generally finishes it off.

Will(42): barely lives most attacks, if not dies to them. At most, you can live a Psychic from Xatu #1, Screech it, and then OHKO with Crunch

Koga(42): EQ doesn't even 2HKO Ariados unless you Screech. Venomoth 2HKOs with Psychic. Crobat trolls with DTeam, but you can try Glaring it. Forry is put in low yellow with EQ after 3 Screeches. Muk is 3HKOed by EQ due to Black Sludge, though it doesn't threaten you, but can still be annoying with Minimize

Bruno(43): beats Hitmontop, because EQ will OHKO it after a Screech while it digs. Lee is 2HKOed by EQ, though it's only beatable if healthy enough. Machamp spams Revenge on you, so you may be able to Screech it to the max and hit it hard with EQ. Chan is 2HKOed by EQ after Screech, but it hits hard with punches. Onix is 2HKOed by EQ after Screech but it 2HKOs with EQ

Karen(43): at most beats Vileplume by 2HKOing with EQ after a Screech. Gengar is also 2HKOed by Crunch and 4HKOs with Focus Blast, though it destiny bonds. Houndoom can be Glared and hit with EQ, but it 2HKOs with Flamethrower. Murkrow can also be worn down with Screech + Crunch, but you will take some damage in the process.

Lance(43): can Intimidate + Glare something you need it to, otherwise nope

Whitney(19): Fire Blast 2HKOs Clefairy and 4HKOs Miltank. Miltank is faster and 2HKOs with Stomp. Not a good matchup

Silver #3 (22): Fire Blast 2HKOs Bayleef and OHKOs the rest, Dig also OHKOs Magnemite

Morty(25): Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs the rest. Gengar is faster and comes close to 2HKOing with Shadow Ball, but the rest are easy

Petrel #2 (27): Charcoal Flamethrower 2HKOs Raticate and OHKOs the rest

Chuck(30): outspeeds and puts Primeape in red with Specs Flamethrower. Poliwrath is a loss, though you can weaken it with Flamethrower a lot if it derps enough.

Jasmine(30): hahaha Flamethrower go brrr

Pryce(30): Specs Flamethrower OHKOs Piloswine, the rest are tough for it to break through, though Specs Fire Blast 3HKOs Dewgong

Petrel #2 (32): Specs Flamethrower 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest

Silver #4 (33): Specs Flamethrower OHKOs Sneasel, Magnemite, and Haunter and 2HKOs the rest. You are not threatened, as a whole

Proton #2 (34): Specs Flamethrower OHKOs everything, Golbat being rolls

Ariana(34): Specs Flamethrower puts Arbok in red and OHKOs the rest. Heal off the paralysis and you are good

Archer(34): Dig 2HKOs the Houndour line and Flamethrower puts Koffing in red. If you've taken damage from Houndour, you need to heal against Houndoom after the first Faint Attack

Clair(37): at most you can OHKO Gyarados with Hyper Beam after 3 NPs, but you need to heal twice. Kingdra outspeeds and KOs with Hydro Pump. Dragonair requires more or less the same as Gyarados, except you need to NP twice and thus possibly heal once

Silver #5 (39): speedties Sneasel. +2 Charcoal Flamethrower outspeeds the rest (other than Kadabra, which seems to be a speedtie as well?). Against Haunter, use Dark Pulse, so Kadabra can disable that instead

Will(42): outspeeds everything +2 Dark Pulse OHKOs Xatu and puts Slowbro in red (which goes for Amnesia and then Full Restore, simply spam Dark Pulse more). +2 Charcoal Flamethrower handles the rest

Koga(43): Charcoal Flamethrower OHKOs Ariados and Forry. +2 Flamethrower (set up on Forry) OHKOs Venomoth and 2HKOs the rest. Another NP turns everything into OHKO, though Crobat is faster, so it can still troll with DTeam. Worth mentioning that +2 Charcoal Fire Blast does OHKO Crobat, though

Bruno(43): Charcoal Flamethrower after an NP OHKOs Onix and 2HKOs the rest, while Fire Blast in same conditions puts Machamp in red and OHKOs the rest. However, it's better to just set up two NPs, because Charcoal Flamethrower then OHKOs everything, with Hitmontop only OHKOing with Dig if it's a crit

Karen(43): you need 3 NPs to OHKO Umbreon with Charcoal Flamethrower. You also murder Murkrow with just one NP. Houndoom generally beats you, though if you have Hyper Beam instead of Fire Blast/Dark Pulse, you can OHKO it while it goes for NP (it's faster). Gengar 3HKOs with Focus Blast, but is OHKOed by +2 Dark Pulse (you do have to be healthy, though). Vileplume is OHKOed by +2 Flamethrower, unboosted puts it in red

Lance(44): nope
Silver #3 (22): Thunder OHKOs Zubat. Assurance 2HKOs Gastly. Fire Blast OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Bayleef. Bayleef can troll you with Synthesis, so you can spam Smog on it in the meantime

Morty(25): Assurance 2HKOs Gastly and Haunter but you are slower than them, so you are prone to hax. Gengar is a lost hope

Petrel #1 (28): Sludge 3HKOs Raticate, while Thunder OHKOs Zubat. Fire Blast can be used to take care of the other Koffing

Chuck(30): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Primeape and seems to be a 4HKO on Poliwrath without berry. However, you are slower and Poliwrath 2HKOs with Surf, while Primeape 4HKOs with Rock Slide.

Jasmine(30): Specs Fire Blast puts Steelix in red and OHKOs the rest. The first Magnemite is slower, but OHKOs with TBolt, while the seocnd one is faster, but doesn't OHKO. You may need to heal to sweep

Pryce(31): Specs Thunder puts Seel in red (SBomb also 2HKOs) and 2HKOs Dewgong. Piloswine is faster and OHKOs with Blizzard, while Dewgong 1v1s it as it 2HKOs with Aurora Beam

Petrel #2 (33): outspeeds and OHKOs Koffing with Specs Fire Blast. Weezing outspeeds and is 2HKOed. In general, you are unlikely to sweep due to Fire Blast's low PP and inaccuracy, but can take out few Koffing

Silver #4 (33): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Sneasel and Magnemite. Specs Thunder puts Golbat in red and Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium. Haunter generally Curses on you and dies to Assurance.

Proton #2 (34): Specs Thunder OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Weezing. Golbat confuses you and Weezing smokescreens you, so the matchup is not reliable

Ariana(34): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs Vileplume and 2HKOs the rest, with Murkrow being rolls for an OHKO. Murkrow is your biggest threat, as it can KO you with Night Shade if you took too many Fire Blasts

Archer(35): Specs Sludge Bomb OHKOs Houndour and 2HKOs the rest. Houndoom doesn't even 3HKO with Fire Fang

Clair(37): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Dragonair and DPulse 3HKOs Weezing. Specs Thunder also OHKOs Gyara, but you need to switch offscreen to beat a Dragonair

Silver #5 (39): Fire Blast puts Sneasel in red and OHKOs Magneton . Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium. Dark Pulse 2HKOs Haunter, though it 3HKOs with Shadow Ball. Thunder puts Golbat in range for Dark Pulse. Kadabra generally finishes it off

Will(42): at most outspeeds and OHKOs Eggy with Specs Sludge Bomb. The rest either outspeed it or live a Dark Pulse and then OHKO it with Psychic

Koga(42): Specs Fire Blast OHKOs the Bugs. Specs Thunder puts Crobat in red, though DTeam will make it unreliable.

Bruno(42): beats Top with no problems. The other Hitmons are 3HKOed by Specs Sludge Bomb, though Lee's Blaze Kick is only an issue if a crit. Also, poisoning turns them into 2HKOs.

Karen(42): OHKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Vileplume with Specs Sludge Bomb, though latter Stun Spores. Dark Pulse 2HKOs Gengar, though it Destiny Bonds. Houndoom can be weakened with Sludge Bomb, but it OHKOs with +2 Flamethrower

Lance(42): Specs Thunder OHKOs Gyara, otherwise, nope

Silver #3 (22): outspeeds and OHKOs Gastly with Bite and Magnemite with Dig. Return (Friend Ball) 2HKOs Zubat. Bayleef stalls you and you likely lose to it.

Morty(25): outspeeds Gastly and Haunter. Bite 2HKOs lv. 23 Haunter and OHKOs Gastly and the other Haunter. Gengar is 3HKOed by Bite, but is faster and 3HKOs with Sucker Punch (though if you have a status move or a Poke Ball to spam, you should be able to outstall it)

Petrel #2 (28): Return OHKOs Zubat and 2HKOs the rest

Chuck(30): Fake Out + Return put Primeape in red, while outspeeding. Poliwrath is 4HKOed by Return (regardless of berry) and 3HKOs with Surf. It can derp and spam Focus Punch, thus giving you a chance to beat it

Jasmine(30): Dig OHKOs Magnemite and deals laughable damage to Steelix and its Iron Tail OHKOs Persian after a Screech. If you do have Screech, you can use it to make Steelix easier for a teammate.

Pryce(30): Fake Out + Return put Seel in red. Return 3HKOs Dewgong and seems to be a 4-5HKO on Piloswine, which generally beats you anyways. Note that Dewgong also 3HKOs with Aurora Beam, so watch out for Sleep Talk

Petrel #2(33): not a great matchup, because you can be Smokescreened and Return doesn't 2HKO (going off memory cause I forgot to write this up)

Silver #4 (33): beats Haunter and Magnemite. Sneasel outspeeds and 3HKOs with Faint Attack, though Return 2HKOs. Golbat is faster and confuses, but is 2HKOed. Meganium is a no-no

Proton #2 (34): Return 2HKOs and 3HKOs Golbat and Weezing. You probably want to avoid Weezing

Ariana(34): Even after a Fake Out, Dig fails to KO Arbok (you need two), which Glares you anyways. -1 Return 2HKOs Murkrow and 3HKOs Vileplume, though the latter beats you unless you heal

Archer(34): beats Houndour and Koffing, but loses to Houndoom, which 2HKOs it and avoids a 2HKO from Dig

Clair(36): Fake Out + Return 2HKO Dragonair (without Fake Out, it 2HKOs, albeit barely) while it 3HKOs with Dragon Pulse. Kingdra and Gyara beat you, though you are faster than Kingdra, so you can weaken it

Silver #5 (39): outspeeds and OHKOs Haunter and Kadabra with Bite. Magneton is put in red with Dig. Sneasel is 2HKOed by Return, but it Icy Winds you, thus forcing you to switch out against Golbat. Loses against Meganium

Will(42): Bite 3HKOs Eggy and 2HKOs Xatu and JYnx, though Xatu #2's Sitrus Berry turns into a 3HKO. Slowbro spams Curse on you, so you need crits and/or flinches to muscle through. However, you take a lot of damage from the Psychic moves and Eggy's Reflect can be disastrous, so you are not doing a lot in the fight

Koga(42): all in all bad. Fake Out + Return 2HKO Ariados and Venomoth. Forry takes too much time, Crobat trolls you with DTeam and is faster, and Muk takes little damage from Dig and almost OHKOs with Gunk Shot

Bruno(42): Fake Out + Return beat Lee (you outspeed with Return). Hitmontop trolls you with Counter, Onix takes Dig and hits hard with EQ while digging, Machamp kills you, and Hitmonchan and Persian 3HKO each other, but Hitmonchan has Bullet Punch and Full Restore ruins the matchup

Karen(42): terrible. At most beats Murkrow or weakens Houndoom, but the rest are not viable. Vileplume can Stun Spore you and troll with Moonlight (I never knew it had that move!), Gengar nukes with Focus Blast, and Umbreon trolls you. Houndoom hits hard even with unboosted Flamethrower, though it's slower.

Lance(42): nope

Arbok
Yeah, so I am going to say that this is definitely not good, at least the way I used it. I decided to use a physical Arbok (aka no Sludge Bomb), mostly cause I was planning on combining Crunch and Dig/EQ with Screech. However, the line is *very* reliant on Screeches to actually deal damage. In fact, there are few opponents in the later parts of the games that get 2HKOed by any of its moves. So yeah, it's not really efficient whatsoever. However, Ekans does have few positive traits. Its early-game is not that bad and Intimidate + Glare can be very useful for Falkner and Bugsy (and Whitney if you have an Arbok). And the combo in particular is useful throughout the game. Arbok is also not bad on the route, so it can keep up with levels and thus provide the support that I mentioned above. Still, I wouldn't really nominate it higher than D-tier, which is the tier I am leaning towards (I don't believe E is the best tier for it, as Ekans is far from useless, just more inefficient than efficient)

Ninetales
This one was very surprising, because my expectations weren't really high. However, Ninetales managed to perform very well for the whole game. The reason is that it has access to Flamethrower at level 24 as Vulpix. Combined with Charcoal and later Specs, Flamethrower manages to OHKO and 2HKO most of the neutral targets. It also has access to WoW, which can be useful for opponents like Chuck's Poliwrath. One of its best tools is Nasty Plot through relearner, which allows it to sweep the first three E4 members with little trouble and, if you have some luck and items, also Karen.

As for a tier, I am leaning towards B-tier myself. The main issue it has is that you need to get a Fire Stone from Pokeathlon Dome, which does take time. Another issue is that, while it beats most of the E4, it will often have to use more than one Nasty Plot, though this is mostly only for Bruno, Koga, and Karen. I am open to other tier suggestions (be it C or A), though I think I will settle with B-tier for now.

Weezing
Koffing's main issue is that its damage output before Sludge (Bomb) comes from the inaccurate Thunder and Fire Blast. That aside, though, the line isn't all around useless, but I found them pretty lacking in power when not using STAB or not hitting super effectively with coverage. D or C sounds fine by me, Turdterra can decide based on logs above.

Persian
Yeah, this one isn't good whatsoever. While you can catch it with Friend Ball, the line's Return is not really powerful and, compared to the other Normal-types in the same route, doesn't hit hard. Note that my Persian had Technician, so Fake Out and Bite were stronger. Persian, as a whole, is limited to taking out only some of the opponents' Pokemon and it's generally the more trivial ones, as opposed to aces and so on. This is not higher than D, but I personally don't mind E-tier for it, because I felt Persian, as a whole, contributed nothing special.

Worth mentioning that Pay Day is only at level 30 for Meowth, so if you need it, you need to hold off evolution. Also, Pickup is lost upon evolution, so that utility isn't permanent either.


I am also doing another run with Pidgeot / Bellossom / Kenya the Spearow / Poliwrath (being caught as Poliwhirl at Ecruteak to skip the awkward period).
 
Last edited:
I used Arbok, Persian and Ninetales in the past so I might as well give my two cents too.

Arbok is annoying to get off the ground and then doesn't really do a whole lot. IIRC I went Special with Sludge Bomb and...it's not much better really. Just kinda exists. D is fine for it but it's aside from Intimidate it has nothing really going for it. Not that there's a lot of better Poisons in this game either, but...yeah.

Persian sucks. Use literally any other Normal. It could maybe see D but like...it just does nothing. E I'm perfectly fine with, because it hits like a wet paper bag.

I didn't like Ninetales all that much but maybe I was using it wrong. I didn't go Specs I don't think. B seems reasonable.

And to round out the four, yeah I don't see why Koffing shouldn't be D. Shame too as it's an okay Poison, but just takes eons to get going.
 
Falkner(14): QA 2HKOs Pidgey and 5HKOs Pidgeotto, which beats you due to Roost trolling

Proton #1 (18): wins, considering the high level

Bugsy(18): Gust 3HKOs (4HKOs due to berry) Scyther. Its QA 4HKOs Pidgeotto, though Focus Energy makes crits more likely, which 2-3HKO Pidgeotto. You will very likely need to throw in a Super Potion to win against it

Silver #2 (19): Gust 3HKOs Bayleef. QA handles Zubat. Gastly curses on you, so avoid it

Whitney(20): Return 3HKOs Clefairy and does nothing to Miltank

Silver #3 (23): Gust seems to be a 4HKO on Bayleef. Also beats Zubat. Gastly Curses. Avoid Magnemite

Morty(25): ehhh. 2HKOs Gastly with Gust, the rest simply take too much time (Gengar) or utilize its low damage output to wear you down (Haunter) by Hypnosising + Dream Eating or Cursing. Not a great matchup

Petrel #1 (28): Return 2HKOs Zubat and Raticate and 3HKOs Koffing. Watch out for Explosion. You may need to heal against Raticate, which is faster

Chuck(30): Pluck 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Primeape is faster and 2HKOs with Rock Slide (Focus Punch is an OHKO if it hits). Poliwrath can be Featherdanced to make it easier for a teammate.

Jasmine(31): nope

Pryce(32): beats Seel, otherwise, nope

Petrel #2 (34): bad. Return only 3HKOs Koffing, so you will faint quickly

Silver #4 (34): Return 3HKOs Golbat, but it's faster and hits you with Air Cutter. Magnemite and Sneasel also beat you. Meganium is 3HKOed by Pluck but Reflect + Synthesis actually make Pidgeotto bad here. Haunter seems to be a 2HKO with Pluck, though it Curses anyways.

Proton #2 (35): beats Golbat by 2HKOing with Return, but loses to Weezing

Ariana (35): Return 2HKOs Murkrow and Pluck 2HKOs Vileplume

Archer(35): beats only Houndour

Clair(37): Return seems to 2-3HKO Dragonair, which paralyzes and 3HKOs with Dragon Pulse

Silver #5 (40): Return 2HKOs Sneasel, Kadabra under Reflect, and Golbat, though the former two outspeed and deal a considerable amount of damage together. Meganium is 3HKOed by Pluck, but Reflect + Synthesis is just a troll

Will(43): Return 2HKOs Xatu #1 and Jynx and 3HKOs Xatu #2. Pluck fails to 2HKO Eggy due to Reflect. Due to the high amount of damage you take from Psychic, you won't be doing much here

Koga(43): outspeeds and 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth with Pluck. The rest are not good matchups, though you can Featherdance them for a teammate

Bruno(43): Pluck OHKOs Lee and 2HKOs the other Hitmons, though be wary of Counter and elemental punches (which can KO you if weakened). Machamp and Onix beat you

Karen(43): beats Vileplume and Murkrow, but that's it

Lance(43): at most a Featherdance can be useful, but otherwise, nope

Proton #1 (14): Acid 2HKOs Zubat and 4HKOs Koffing. Koffing spams Smokescreen

Bugsy(17): Sleep Powder can be used to put Scyther to sleep or Stun Spore to cripple it permanently. However, it moves around with U-turn, making it harder to execute the strategy

Silver #2 (18): can Acid spam through Bayleef. Can also beat Zubat if it outspeeds (speedtie) and puts it to sleep (4HKO with Acid).

Whitney (21): Bellossom here. Miracle Seed Solar Beam OHKOs Clefairy and 2HKOs Miltank, possibly putting it in red. However, Miltank is faster and can flinch troll with Stomp (5-6HKO). Furthermore, if your Bellossom is male, then Attract also trolls you. You want to put it to sleep as soon as possible (screw Lum Berry)

Silver #3 (23): MS Solar Beam OHKOs Magnemite. Acid 4HKOs Bayleef, put it to sleep. Gastly curses on you, Zubat seems to be around a 4HKO with Acid, put it to sleep

Morty(25): MS Solar Beam OHKOs Gastly, 3HKOs Gengar, and 2HKOs the rest. They are all faster than you and you need to put them to sleep to damage anything safely

Petrel #1 (28): Acid seems to be around 4HKO on Zubat. Magical Leaf 2HKOs the rest, though you want to put them to sleep

Chuck(30): Specs Magical Leaf 2HKOs Primeape and Poliwrath (even after berry), only keep in mind that Primeape can troll you with Rock Slide flinches

Jasmine(31): Specs Magical Leaf 3HKOs Magnemite, but it paralyzes it. Steelix is also 3HKOed, with berry putting it out of range for potion, while almost 2HKOing (it sets up Sandstorm turn one, so you have plenty of time anyways). Use it to beat Steelix and avoid the rest

Pryce(32): Specs Magical Leaf OHKOs Seel and 2HKOs the rest. The 2HKOs are faster, though, with Dewgong 3HKOing with Aurora Beam, though you should be able to beat it.

Petrel #2 (33): Specs Petal Dance 2HKOs Koffing. You are 3HKOed by Sludge. You take out two if everything goes fine

Silver #4 (33): Specs Magical Leaf 2HKOs Magnemite and Sneasel, though the former paralyzes and the latter KOs you if you are weakened enough. Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium. The rest are not good matchups

Proton #2 (34): Specs Magical Leaf 3HKOs Weezing on rolls, but it 3HKOs with Sludge. Bad matchup

Ariana(34): Specs Sludge Bomb OHKOs Murkrow (on rolls) and 3HKOs Vileplume, though Plume can KO you

Archer (35): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Houndour, while it outspeeds and 3HKOs with Fire Fang.

Clair(37): MS Solar Beam in sun outspeeds and 3HKOs Gyarados and Kingdra, though you are really reliant on sleep to beat any of them. Dragonair is 4HKOed by SBomb, but a poison turns them into 3HKOs

Silver #5 (39): MS Solar Beam almost OHKOs Sneasel and OHKOs Kadabra. SBomb 3HKOs Meganium and you can put it to sleep to prevent Synthesis trolling

Will(42): MS Solar Beam 2HKOs Jynx and OHKOs Slowbro. SBomb 2HKOs Eggy. Avoid Xatu

Koga(42): nope

Bruno(42): MS Solar Beam 2HKOs Hitmons, OHKOs Onix, and 3HKOs Machamp. Putting everything to sleep is essential

Karen(42): nope

Lance(42): nope

Whitney(21): Aerial Ace 2HKOs Clefairy and 2HKOs Miltank after two Leers, though it may be rolls, since it's at really high yellow. Miltank's Stomp is a 4HKO on Fearow and you will very likely need to heal once. Note that Kenya is always female, so Attract is not an issue

Silver #3 (23): Aerial Ace OHKOs Gastly, almost OHKOs Zubat, and 2HKOs Bayleef. Avoid Magnemite

Morty(25): Aerial Ace OHKOs Gastly, 2HKOs Haunter, and 3HKOs Gengar. At most you gotta worry about Haunter's Curse and Hypnosis + Dream Eater combo, other than that, good matchup

Petrel #1 (28): Aerial Ace spam wins

Chuck(30): Aerial Ace 2HKOs Primeape and 3HKOs Poliwrath. Primeape is faster and 2HKOs with Rock Slide, however.

Jasmine(31): nope

Pryce(32): beats Seel, otherwise, nope

Petrel #2 (33): Aerial Ace 3HKOs Koffing (ignoring Smokescreens). All in all, not a good matchup, as you will be worn out fast

Silver #4 (33): Return 3HKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Sneasel, though the latter generally beats it by the time it enters the field. Meganium is 2HKOed by Aerial Ace, but Reflect turns it into a 4HKO, so you may have to spam Leer + use a healing item (potentially). Haunter is 2HKOed by Aerial Ace and Curses

Proton #2 (34): Return 2HKOs Golbat and 4HKOs Weezing. You only beat Golbat

Ariana(35): Return 2HKOs Murkrow and Aerial Ace 2HKOs Vileplume. Avoid Arbok

Archer(35): Return 2HKOs Houndour and 3HKOs the rest. However, Houndoom 2HKOs with Bite / Fire Fang

Clair(37): Return 2HKOs Dragonair, though it paralyzes and 2HKOs with Dragon Pulse

Silver #5 (40): outspeeds and OHKOs Kadabra and 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel with Return. Haunter is 2HKOed by Aerial Ace but Curses. Meganium under Reflect is 4HKOed by Aerial Ace

Will(42): Return 2HKOs Xatu #1 and Jynx. Cannot do much to Eggy due to Reflect, which allows it to take at least 3 Aerial Aces (first one is without Reflect, next two are). Avoid the rest. Note that you get 2HKOed by Psychic

Koga(42): Aerial Ace 2HKOs Ariados and Venomoth. The rest aren't really efficient or good matchups at all, though Leer can assist teammates

Bruno(43): Aerial Ace OHKOs Lee and 2HKOs the other Hitmons, though be wary of Counter (Leer spam for that) and elemental punches (which can KO you if weakened). Machamp and Onix beat you

Karen(43): beats Vileplume and Murkrow, but that's it

Lance(44): nope

Petrel #1 (28): spam Surf and you win

Chuck(30): MW Surf in rain (it learns Rain Dance naturally) puts Primeape in red, though it's faster and sets up DTeam. The AI also has a tendency to switch out Primeape and throw in Poliwrath on your Surfs. Its Focus Punch is a 2HKO and Hypnosis makes you an easy target. Also note that Focus Blast isn't a 2HKO on it and BSlam deals laughable damage.

Jasmine(31): Specs Surf OHKOs everything

Pryce(32): Specs Focus Blast OHKOs Dewgong and Piloswine, with Specs Surf putting Pilo in red (MW Surf in rain should OHKO, I believe)

Petrel #2 (33): Specs Surf 2HKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest. If no Smokecreen from Weezing, no problems

Silver #4 (34): MW Surf in rain 2HKOs Golbat and Sneasel and OHKOs Magnemite. However, the former two outspeed it. Haunter is faster and Curses on you. Meganium stops you cold, though if it's Quilava, it shouldn't be a problem

Proton #2 (34): MW Surf in rain OHKOs everything, with Weezing bein rolls. Golbat is faster and can confuse you

Ariana(34): MW Surf in rain puts Arbok in red (watch out for Glare) and OHKOs Murkrow. Avoid Vileplume (though ig Blizzard can help?)

Archer(34): haha Specs Surf go brr

Clair(37): Specs Blizzard puts Dragonair in red and is 4HKOed by Dragon Pulse, though they paralyze you

Silver #5 (40): MW Surf in rain OHKOs Haunter, Sneasel, Kadabra, and Magneton. However, all of them outspeed; Haunter can Curse, Kadabra can disable or just hit you hard with a Psychic move, and Magneton paralyzes if there's no rain (as it survives outside of it). Golbat is 2HKOed and can be annoying with confusion/Air Cutter

Will(43): gets 2HKOed by Psychic. MW Surf in rain puts Xatu #1 in red, though that one is faster. Eggy is 2HKOed by Blizzard, but misses are fatal

Koga(43): MW Surf in rain 2HKOs Forry, Ariados, and Venomoth, though Moth is faster and can Supersonic you. Muk avoids a 2HKO thanks to Black Sludge

Bruno(43): MW Surf in rain 2HKOs everything bar Machamp. Onix dies to any Surf. You are outsped by Lee and Chan, which either hit hard or Swagger you (Lee)

Karen(43): Specs Surf puts Houndoom in red (doesn't threaten you) and Specs Focus Blast puts Umbreon in red

Lance(43): Specs Blizzard OHKOs DNite, but they 2HKO it. Specs Surf doesn't OHKO Zard and Aero, which hit hard in return

here are thoughts. Some *may* be controversial:

Pidgey
Absolutely terrible. This thing has like no good matchups whatsoever. Bugsy's Scyther requires item support to be defeated and is not even that reliable for Bruno. The only thing I can think of that it has over most Pokemon is Featherdance to troll some opponents. But, all in all, Pidgey is terrible and doesn't really have a performance that goes well with its early availability. Leaning towards E-tier myself, but I am open to D in case I am going too hard on it.

Bellossom
For this nomination, I used Magnus0's Vileplume logs to compare a bit (used to nominate Plume to C). Starting Morty and onwards, our matchups were more or less the same or the only differences were the strategies used in our logs. All in all, Plume and Bellossom's performances are very similar and probably should be merged in one tier if his logs were to be used as a basis for C-tier (I also have logs for Plume but they are really old). And before someone says "they are different Pokemon", the differences are really small, I don't think it's worth splitting them when we can save ourselves one write-up and reduce clutter in the list whose dex is already big enough.

That is, unless we consider Sun Stone too difficult to obtain, which would warrant a tier drop. My experience with getting it from the past is that it requires some effort, but whenever it's enough to drop it one tier is not something I can really tell you.

Kenya
Yeah so I know that we have the consensus that Spearow is not S-tier and I agree with it. However, I am not really sure if this is A-tier material either. Kenya is useful for Whitney, Morty, and Chuck, but falls off really hard after that. Its matchups are rather mediocre post-Chuck. I will likely settle with B-tier due to traded Exp. and zero effort of obtaining. If not for that, I'd argue Spearow is an easy C-tier.

Poliwrath
Largely unimpressive. It's not so much that it's bad than it not being super amazing. It was relatively slow and its damage output was rather lacking. It's not really as good as Chinchou/Staryu/Lapras/Tentacool (though two of them were nommed at one point or another for A-tier, so perhaps emphasizing more on Staryu/Lapras). The only thing it has going about it is STAB Focus Blast and natural Rain Dance, but I'd still rather use the aforementioned ones even if I had to backtrack for Rain Dance. Leaning towards C-tier myself.

Note that I did not teach it Waterfall, which wouldn't have changed much, given its stats and typing (since you aren't using it against Will and Waterfall being irrelevant for Lance, for example).

next batch that I am doing: Sunflora / Golduck / Politoed / Dewgong
 
double post :eyes:

but I did my run

Whitney(20): +2 MS Mega Drain 2HKOs Clefairy and Miltank, though Miltank can be annoying with flinches + Attract. You can set up on Clefairy and also use Leech Seed on it (or GrassWhistle, but I removed it for Leech Seed) to maintain some HP while healing

Silver #3 (22): can handle Croconaw if you picked Cyndaquil. Otherwise, Bayleef can be muscled through if you set up Growth like crazy and also deal with Magnemite this way.

Morty(25): all in all inefficient, but Leech Seed can help. You get outsped and statused a lot

Petrel #1 (26): +1 MS Mega Drain 2HKOs Koffing and Raticate. Avoid Zubat

Chuck(30): Specs Mega Drain 3HKOs his mons, with Solar Beam OHKOing them. Note that Focus Punch OHKOs it and Poliwrath's Hypnosis shuts it down

Jasmine(31): Specs Solar Beam puts Magnemite in red. Steelix 2HKOs with Iron Tail and Sandstorm halts Solar Beam. You could try Growth + Leech Seed + Mega Drain on Magnemite, but between paralysis and Supersonic, it will prove rather inefficient

Pryce(32): Specs Mega Drain 2HKOs Seel and Dewgong (and, thanks to recovery, beats them). Piloswine puts it in red with Blizzard. Note that you are outsped by everything

Petrel #2 (33): outspeeds and OHKOs all Koffing with Specs Petal Dance, though they 3HKO it with Sludge, so watch out for confusion damage. Avoid Weezing

Silver #4 (33): Specs Sludge Bomb 2HKOs Meganium, while Specs Petal Dance 2HKOs Sneasel (3HKOs with Faint Attack) and Magnemite (faster and paralyzes with TWave)

Proton #2 (34): 2HKOs Weezing with Specs Petal Dance, but is outsped and 2HKOed by Sludge

Ariana(34): bad. At most you can beat Arbok by 3HKOing it with Specs Petal Dance

Archer(34): beats Koffing, unless it gets poisoned

Clair(37): gets outsped by Gyara even in sun. At most, you can assist teammates with Leech Seed (and GrassWhistle if you kept it) but Sunflora's speed is causing it a lot of issues.

Silver #5 (40): MS Solar Beam OHKOs Sneasel and Kadabra (both outspeed even in sun) and 2HKOs Magneton. Meganium can be beaten with Growth + SBomb, if you have the latter

Will(42): at most beats Slowbro. The rest can be KOed only if you spam Growth enough and they outspeed you even in sun anyways

Koga(42): nope

Bruno(42): +2 Solar Beam OHKOs Hitmons and almost OHKOs Machamp (and OHKOs Onix). Hitmonlee, however, outspeeds under sun and OHKOs with Blaze Kick and comes straight after Top

Karen(43): can set Leech Seed on Umbreon, otherwise, nope.

Lance(43): nope

Petrel #1 (31): Specs Surf go brrr

Chuck(31): Specs Surf OHKOs Primeape. I didn't have Confusion, so Poliwrath was bad, but Hypnosis would make this matchupp bad anyways

Jasmine(31): Specs Surf go brrr

Pryce(31): Specs Surf 3HKOs Seel and OHKOs Piloswine. Specs Focus Blast also OHKOs Piloswine and Dewgong

Petrel #2 (32): Specs Surf puts Weezing in red and OHKOs the rest

Silver #4 (33): MW Surf in rain puts Golbat in red and OHKOs Haunter, though Haunter is faster. Magnemite dies to MW Surf and Sneasel to Focus Blast (2HKOed by MW Surf)

Proton #2 (34): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Specs Surf

Ariana(34): Specs Surf puts Arbok in red, which Glares you, and OHKOs Murkrow

Archer(34): Specs Surf OHKOs everything, only watch out for Bite flinches from Houndoom

Clair(36): outspeeds and OHKOs Dragonair with Specs Blizzard

Silver #5 (39): Specs Surf 2HKOs Golbat and OHKOs the rest bar Meganium, with Sneasel being rolls. However, all of them, bar Magneton, outspeed you (including Golbat)

Will(42): Specs Surf 2HKOs Xatu and Jynx. I guess Specs Blizzard will OHKO Xatu and Eggy, if it hits

Koga(42): Specs Surf 2HKOs Venomoth, Ariados, and Forry, though Moth outspeeds

Bruno(42): beats Top, Chan, and Onix (outspeeds and 2HKOs Hitmons)

Karen(42): Specs Surf OHKOs Doom and Murkrow

Lance(42): Specs Blizzard OHKOs DNite, but they are faster and Outrage OHKOs it. Fails to OHKO Zard and Aero with Surf, which hit it hard in return

Petrel #1 (28): Specs Surf

Chuck(30): Specs Surf OHKOs Primeape.

Jasmine(30): Specs Surf go brrr

Pryce(31): Specs Surf OHKOs Piloswine, while Specs Focus Blast 2HKOs everything

Petrel #2 (33): Specs Surf almost OHKOs Weezing and OHKOs the rest, outspeeding all

Silver #4 (33): MW Surf in rain puts Golbat in red and OHKOs Haunter, though both are faster. Magnemite dies to MW Surf and Sneasel to Focus Blast (2HKOed by MW Surf)

Proton #2 (34): outspeeds and OHKOs everything with Specs Surf

Ariana(34): Specs Surf puts Arbok in red, which Glares you, and OHKOs Murkrow

Archer(34): Specs Surf OHKOs everything, only watch out for Bite flinches from Houndoom

Clair(37): Specs Blizzard OHKOs DNair, though they outspeed and 3-4HKO with DPulse

Silver #5 (39): Specs Surf 2HKOs Sneasel and Golbat and OHKOs Kadabra, Magneton, and Haunter, though it only outspeeds Magneton

Will(42): MW Surf in rain OHKOs Jynx and 2HKOs Xatu, though all of them are faster. Xatu #1 can derp and spam Me First, though. Xatu #2's Psychic is a 3HKO. I guess Specs Blizzard will OHKO Xatu and Eggy, if it hits

Koga(42): Specs Surf 2HKOs Venomoth, Ariados, and Forry, though Moth outspeeds

Bruno(42): beats only Top and Onix

Karen(42): Specs Surf OHKOs Houndoom and almost OHKOs Murkrow

Lance(42): Specs Blizzard OHKOs DNite, but they are faster and Outrage OHKOs it. The others spam Dragon Rush for w/e reason. Fails to OHKO Zard and Aero with Surf, which hit it hard in return

Petrel #1 (27): Specs Surf 2HKOs Raticate and OHKOs the rest. Only Rat outspeeds

Chuck(30): Specs Surf 2HKOs Primeape, though it's faster and can DTeam on you

Jasmine(30): Specs Surf doesn't OHKO Magnemite (but outspeeds) but dies to Thunderbolt. 2HKOs Steelix as well, but Steelix doesn't OHKO it back

Pryce(31): 2HKOs Piloswine with Specs Surf, which 3HKOs with Mud Bomb. Avoid the rest

Petrel #2 (33): outspeeds and OHKOs Koffing with Specs Surf. Weezing outspeeds and Smokescreens, so avoid it

Silver #4 (34): Specs Aurora Beam puts Golbat in red and 2HKOs Meganium. Specs Aurora Beam also 2HKOs Haunter (puts it in red) and Specs Surf OHKOs Magnemite and 2HKOs Sneasel. Note that Meganium outspeeds and beats you with Petal Dance and Golbat is annoying with Confusion

Proton #2 (34): outspeeds and OHKOs Golbat and 2HKOs Weezing with Specs Aurora Beam

Ariana(34): Specs Aurora Beam 3HKOs Arbok, 2HKOs Vileplume, and OHKOs Murkrow. Heal off Dewgong's paralysis after two Aurora Beams. Plume deals laughable damage even with Mega Drain

Archer(35): Specs Surf OHKOs everything, only watch out for Bite flinches from Houndoom

Clair(37): Specs Aurora Beam 2HKOs Dragonair, which 3-4HKO it with Dragon Pulse. You speedtie them (67 speed)

Silver #5 (40): Specs Surf 2HKOs everything bar Meganium. You will likely take out around two threats, as you are worn out easily

Will(42): Specs Aurora Beam puts Xatu and Eggy in red, though Xatu is faster and can confuse hax you. Specs Surf 3HKOs Jynx, so do not bother

Koga(42): Specs Surf 2HKOs Venomoth, Ariados, and Forry, though Moth outspeeds

Bruno(43): beats only Top and Onix

Karen(43): Specs Surf OHKOs Doom and Specs Aurora Beam OHKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Plume, which Stun Spores you and 2HKOs with Petal Dance

Lance(43): fails to OHKO DNite with Specs Aurora Beam. It also gets OHKOed by Outrage and Thunder. Also fails to OHKO Zard and Aero with Specs Surf

thoughts:

Sunflora
Yeah, so this is not great by any margin. The only advantage it has is that high Special Attack upon capture (assuming you evolve with Sun Stone immediately). Its low Speed also means it gets outsped often, even if there's sun on the field. All in all, this is likely E-tier material, at most D-tier due to Leech Seed + GrassWhistle support, but I don't mind either tier. Logs can be checked and thus a tier can be determined

Dewgong
D-tier. Despite having STAB on Aurora Beam, you are not even OHKOing Dragons with Specs. Not to mention that you need to go out of your way to get it as early as possible (you need to beat Lighthouse, then take Medicine, then go back to Lighthouse, then go all the way to Route 47 to get it) and Seel is weaker than most Water-types. I am not really able to see C-tier, but someone can disagree with me

Politoed
Between you and me, Politoed is the better evolution, because of the higher SpA, meaning you get a more powerful Surf. The issue with backtracking for King's Rock still remains, though. Anyways, I am not sure if I can see it in B-tier, but I won't rule out this option. At worst C and B at best. I found its E4 performance somewhat lackluster, though

Golduck
By far the strongest case for B of the three Water-types. You can catch a Golduck up to level 31 and, unlike Toed, doesn't require a backtrack for King's Rock. It kind of faces the same issues as Toed in the E4, though Golduck tends to perform a bit better there. Still, I think B-tier is possible, but I don't mind C-tier either.

also, I said a while ago that I would make a research on the amount of Speed that Raticate needs to outspeed Clair's Kingdra. Better than late than never, I guess? Anyways, you can find it below:

(yes, I know what shounen is)

Following some research, I managed to find out that Clair's Kingdra has 24 IVs across all stats with a Timid nature. This means that, at level 41, Kingdra has 92 Speed.

I have done some calculations for Raticate below that show its Speed stat depending on level and nature. EVs are assumed to be 50 (I think it's a reasonable amount). I hope it's still relevant at this point

Neutral nature

31 IVs - 90

+Speed nature

31 IVs - 99
30 IVs - 97
29 IVs - 97
28 IVs - 97
27 IVs - 96
26 IVs - 96
25 IVs - 96
24 IVs - 95
23 IVs - 95
22 IVs -95
21 IVs - 94
20 IVs - 94
19 IVs - 94
18 IVs - 93
17 IVs - 93
16 IVs - 92
15 IVs - 92
14 IVs - 92
13 IVs - 91

Neutral nature
31 IVs - 92
30 IVs - 92
29 IVs - 91

+ Speed nature

11 IVs - 93
10 - 8 IVs - 92
7 IVs - 91

tl;dr get a +Speed nature and you are outspeeding it even with crappier IVs (though level 36 needs some more decent ones). Get anything else and you are speedtieing at best. I am psure my Raticate was a -Speed nature, which explains why I didn't have the great experience with it as others have claimed

whenever this will be considered for A-tier is something I am going to abstain from

Let me know if you want me to compare Raticate's stats to something else later on.
 
Last edited:
1606826902802.png

Slugma to E tier

Did you know you can get this in Johto via Primo in the Violet City Pokemon Center if you tell him certain phrases? No? Such is the wonderful design of HGSS which never tells you anything like a competent game would do.

Yes if you tell Primo certain phrases with the use of this website (https://www.pokewiki.de/Spezial:Geheimcode-Generator?uselang=en) he'll give you a Slugma Egg (and also...Wooper and Mareep...even though they are literally outside the city-WHO THOUGHT THIS WAS A GOOD IDEA)

So you have to walk around and hatch an Egg with no Bike at this point (hoping you get Flame Body otherwise you have to reset before receiving the Slugma Egg) and what do you get for it? A Pokemon that evolves at level 38 (getting Lava Plume at the same level even) and is weak to almost everything by virtue of being a Fire/Rock type post-evolution.

And that movepool is pitiful:
Screen Shot 2020-12-01 at 7.54.18 AM.png

(That's Magcargo's learnset but yes, Slugma gets Lava Plume at Level 38, as stated).

So you've got an early Fire which is slow and frail, has a terrible movepool, doesn't even get STAB on Rock moves until evolution (and even then gets more physical Rock moves than special) and has to be hatched from an Egg. I've actually used this thing and it was terrible. Amnesia and Recover would be cool if you weren't as slow as tar and weak to everything. Even early availability can't save Slugma as it's kinda negated by hatching an Egg to get it.

Yeah this sucks, throw it with the garbage where it belongs. Why they chose this of all things to make available in Johto baffles me.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top