GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV

[Xator_Nova]

That said, does Typhlosion really needed to be penalized for Fire Blast? You don't need it until the Elite Four in my experience, and by the time you're done with the Rockets in Goldenrod - let alone your battle with Clair - it shouldn't be difficult to acquire this TM at all. Sunny Day + Fire Blast also allows Typhlosion to nuke pretty much everyone in the Elite Four, Lance aside. My Pokémon were admittedly at L40 or above before fighting the Elite Four - but Typhlosion effectively soloed them (and Lance). Sunny Day + Fire Blast destroys nearly everything they have, including Umbreon - even Dragonites got 2HKOed, Gyarados got one-shotted by Thunderpunch. I fought nearly every trainer, maybe missed a few Rockets. Pretty much no wild grinding unless I was already a hair's breadth away from the next level, and even then only once.

this is a good point of discussion

The Fire Blast TM is really expensive. Think about it: You're giving up 110000 Pokédollars for one TM. That amount of money could be put for another teammate, for example, someone that would need a Game Corner TM, such as Rain Dance + Thunder strategies, or access to Blizzard to fight against Lance. While it's really cool that you can give Typhlosion the Fire Blast TM, it comes at an opportunity cost, and ideally, you would like somebody that doesn't need rare or expensive TMs to stand out.

Imagine you were running both Electrode and Flareon. Then suddenly Electrode's high monetary cost doesn't sound so appealing when you have Fire Blast to take into account, too. That limits your team flexibility, don't you think?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

this is a good point of discussion

The Fire Blast TM is really expensive. Think about it: You're giving up 110000 Pokédollars for one TM. That amount of money could be put for another teammate, for example, someone that would need a Game Corner TM, such as Rain Dance + Thunder strategies, or access to Blizzard to fight against Lance. While it's really cool that you can give Typhlosion the Fire Blast TM, it comes at an opportunity cost, and ideally, you would like somebody that doesn't need rare or expensive TMs to stand out.

Imagine you were running both Electrode and Flareon. Then suddenly Electrode's high monetary cost doesn't sound so appealing when you have Fire Blast to take into account, too. That limits your team flexibility, don't you think?

1. Typhlosion doesn't need Fire Blast until the E4, by which point you can easily buy two of these TMs, so get yourself two.

2. It gets progressively easier to make money as the game goes on and according to the earlier iteration of this tier list, you can buy at least four of these TMs even before the E4 if you're (very) frugal. Combine that with all the Nuggets and stuff you can get and it shouldn't be a problem.

3. Electrode and Flareon having bad movepools is their problem, not Typhlosion's. Typhlo can make Fire Punch work too as you showed, Fire Blast just is the optimal way to go. Flareon honestly doesn't even need Fire-type STAB that badly outside of Jasmine, she can do immense damage with Normal-type moves, Bite, and Shadow Ball alone. 130 attack and a 24% boost to both Normal and Ghost moves do that for you.

 

[Ernesto]

If anyone's interested, here's my levels

levels

Falkner: Spearow Lv11 , Chikorita Lv9
Bugsy: Spearow Lv17, Bayleaf Lv16
Whitney: Pinsir Lv16, Bayleaf Lv18, Fearow Lv20
Morty: Pinsir Lv22, Bayleaf Lv22, Fearow Lv24
Pryce: Fearow Lv28, Bayleaf Lv27, Pinsir Lv27
Chuck: Seadra Lv26, Fearow Lv29, Bayleaf Lv28, Pinsir Lv28
Jasmine: Kingdra Lv28, Fearow Lv30, Bayleaf Lv30, Pinsir Lv29
Clair: Kingdra Lv34, Fearow Lv34, Meganium Lv34, Pinsir Lv34
Elite 4: Kingdra Lv38, Fearow Lv38, Meganium Lv38, Pinsir Lv38

Hi Random Passerby! I gotta say those levels are surprisingly lower than what I remembered, is that all just because of running a Slow exp. group mon? If that's the case it might be advisable to actually go out of your way to face the trainers in Union Cave to make up for it (it sounds ridiculous, I know). Either that or you're forced to run the gift Spearow to free up some experience.

I think it's worth training Chikorita more in the Sprout Tower, since like Molk posted in the last thread getting Reflect actually makes Falkner a winnable matchup. After all, it's basically the same as leveling Cyndaquil to get Ember, since both resist Vine Whip and spam Tackle from similar Attack stats. I also thought you'd generally get Meganium before the 7th gym (since it's basically like Quilava getting Flame Wheel for Jasmine, it really helps in that fight) but that's a result of the overall low levels. Doubt it'd influence Chikorita's placement but I thought I'd mention it.

Anyway, right before everything devolved into what we're not gonna mention I decided to do a new Crystal run with Cyndaquil, Pidgey, Bellsprout, and Poliwrath. What brought it up was that after reading all the discussion I thought I might've been too harsh on Quilava for being the second worst middle-stage starter after Grovyle and also to test some mons I used less. Since they can all be found before the first gym I decided to only level up Cynda and Pidgey since the other two didn't have a good grind spot, and fish a Poliwag after I got the rod. I'll update this after I advance with my run but for now I wanna say that Pidgey can be decent after an ugly start (its Tackle being weaker than Cynda's after STAB, like WTF) and that Poliwag definitely wants the Headbutt TM ASAP. Its Special Attack is pitifully weak so it needs the power boost to beat neutral targets. Also Bellsprout can technically sweep Bugsy but it's ugh, like seriously I needed to use Wrap because otherwise I'd run out of Vine Whip PP. I'll get the evolutionary stones as soon as I can since there's really no point in holding on, Victreebel wants to use SolarBeam in the E4 anyway—for like the one Grass-weak matchup, lol.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Hi Random Passerby! I gotta say those levels are surprisingly lower than what I remembered, is that all just because of running a Slow exp. group mon? If that's the case it might be advisable to actually go out of your way to face the trainers in Union Cave to make up for it (it sounds ridiculous, I know). Either that or you're forced to run the gift Spearow to free up some experience.

I think it's worth training Chikorita more in the Sprout Tower, since like Molk posted in the last thread getting Reflect actually makes Falkner a winnable matchup. After all, it's basically the same as leveling Cyndaquil to get Ember, since both resist Vine Whip and spam Tackle from similar Attack stats. I also thought you'd generally get Meganium before the 7th gym (since it's basically like Quilava getting Flame Wheel for Jasmine, it really helps in that fight) but that's a result of the overall low levels. Doubt it'd influence Chikorita's placement but I thought I'd mention it.

Anyway, right before everything devolved into what we're not gonna mention I decided to do a new Crystal run with Cyndaquil, Pidgey, Bellsprout, and Poliwrath. What brought it up was that after reading all the discussion I thought I might've been too harsh on Quilava for being the second worst middle-stage starter after Grovyle and also to test some mons I used less. Since they can all be found before the first gym I decided to only level up Cynda and Pidgey since the other two didn't have a good grind spot, and fish a Poliwag after I got the rod. I'll update this after I advance with my run but for now I wanna say that Pidgey can be decent after an ugly start (its Tackle being weaker than Cynda's after STAB, like WTF) and that Poliwag definitely wants the Headbutt TM ASAP. Its Special Attack is pitifully weak so it needs the power boost to beat neutral targets. Also Bellsprout can technically sweep Bugsy but it's ugh, like seriously I needed to use Wrap because otherwise I'd run out of Vine Whip PP. I'll get the evolutionary stones as soon as I can since there's really no point in holding on, Victreebel wants to use SolarBeam in the E4 anyway—for like the one Grass-weak matchup, lol.

I definitely think if there's any generation where you need to grind against trainers, it's this one.

Interested in seeing you test Cyndaquil - one thing I think would be cool is if you could test Fury Cutter or Rollout on her against gym leaders. I legit defeated Whitney with Fury Cutter Quilava once, though on a second try I didn't do so well given that Clefairy managed to bring me to the yellow. You could also try Dig for Morty. Quilava definitely has an off period, I cannot lie, but it's not as bad as I think people make it out to be.

Bellsprout and Poliwag are definitely dope, best to get a Poliwag from the Ruins of Alph at a much higher level.

 

[Random Passerby]

aegon the unlikely :
I have updated how I raised my mons in my previous post. I think grinding to Lv40 before the Elite 4 is a good idea as players normally like to have benchmarks which is a multiple of 5. It also makes the stat difference not as huge as it did. I still don't know how you got to Lv49 by that point since I defeated Blue at Lv48 lol. I skipped Union Cave Trainers and the routes south of Blackthorn so you can see my levels are lower.

Celeb
How long did it take you to get Entei? I followed the instructions here and got it in about 20 minutes. Not too bad and I liked Entei too.

Ernesto
Yeah, that's a good point for Chikorita. Lv12 Reflect helps it against Falkner.

EDIT: Also, the previous thread actually included Kanto in the tiering but I'm not sure how important that is since Kanto is wide open and it only changes things for Houndoom, Snorlax, and Tyranitar (Celadon Game Corner) anyway.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

aegon the unlikely :
I have updated how I raised my mons in my previous post. I think grinding to Lv40 before the Elite 4 is a good idea as players normally like to have benchmarks which is a multiple of 5. It also makes the stat difference not as huge as it did. I still don't know how you got to Lv49 by that point since I defeated Blue at Lv48 lol. I skipped Union Cave Trainers and the routes south of Blackthorn so you can see my levels are lower.

Celeb
How long did it take you to get Entei? I followed the instructions here and got it in about 20 minutes. Not too bad and I liked Entei too.

Ernesto
Yeah, that's a good point for Chikorita. Lv12 Reflect helps it against Falkner.

EDIT: Also, the previous thread actually included Kanto in the tiering but I'm not sure how important that is since Kanto is wide open and it only changes things for Houndoom, Snorlax, and Tyranitar (Celadon Game Corner) anyway.

Agreed completely! I didn't skip any of those trainers - at least I don't think I did.

Also, thoughts about my nominations?

Cyndaquil -> B to A
Bellsprout. -> C to B
Stantler -> B to C.
Wooper -> A to B

Useful Notes:

A) Strongly recommended moves for Cyndaquil: Ember (before Falkner, beat up Sprouts), Flame Wheel (before Jasmine and Mahogany Gym), Fire Blast (before E4, nuke under the sun), Sunny Day (before E4), Thunderpunch (before E4 or even Clair, can help with Water-types and Flying-types)

Other options: Dig (before Morty, can help with him), Fury Cutter (before Whitney, can help with her and Pryce), Earthquake (before E4, can help with Koga and Karen), Smokescreen (can mess with Clefairy's Doubleslap attempts, allowing you to set up Fury Cutter better)

B) Stantler cannot use Strength and has a garbage movepool compared to everyone else among the Normals. Would not recommend.

C) Wooper is best caught before Bugsy, has a great grinding spot in Union Cave against the Hikers and Firebreathers, and is most usable after picking up Slam (which hits with comparable power to Headbutt) in the early L10s. While not super useful outside of elemental advantages, can be a useful ally against the Rival's Croconaw by haxing them with Mud-Slap spam and is the best user of it in my current team at least.

D) Bellsprout is actually awesome, Sleep Powder is brilliant for catching Pokemon (they really tend to break out of balls in this generation), and Growth + Vine Whip + Sleep Powder can beat pretty much any boss - even Bugsy, Whitney, and Morty, though you want some healing items to be safe. Do not evolve Weepinbell until you pick up Acid at L24, but once you do, be prepared to evolve immediately to benefit from 105/100 offenses immediately. You can get Sludge Bomb earlier if you are willing to beat the Rockets in Mahogany, giving you a strong and consistent offense much earlier. Sprout also has a fantastic grinding spot in Union Cave, literally leveled up at least THREE levels by beating the Onix Hiker in spite of never having fought before. A great ally to Cyndaquil, who still struggles against Water and Rock-types, and can beat the Rival's Croconaw.

E) Typhlosion is basically ''One Punch Mon'' in the E4 with Sunny Day / Fire Blast / Thunderpunch / insert coverage move. Nearly everyone hates taking a hit from him, even Lance's Dragonites were being 2HKOed, and before the E4 you have zero reason to not be able to afford the TM.

 

[Celeb]

Celeb
How long did it take you to get Entei? I followed the instructions here and got it in about 20 minutes. Not too bad and I liked Entei too.

I would love to tell you but I do not remember exact times. When I was using the old method of going up and down from Ecruteak to Route 37 it took me about 60-90 minutes. When I tried a new method (traveling between Cianwood and Mahogany on foot) I was able to find other Beasts within 30 minutes. So yeah, as the linked guide says - do not double back on yourself.

By the way, I always go with 6 team members and end up with 45-47 levels after Blue. I'm also always below 40 level before E4 unless I catch a legendary Pokemon.

Cyndaquil -> B to A
Bellsprout. -> C to B
Stantler -> B to C.
Wooper -> A to B

Fire Blast/Flame Wheel + Thunder Punch Typhlosion is amazing. The only common thing that resists both attacks is Geodude line and you can brute force your way through it with a strong special STAB IIRC. I assume it was placed in B because of its STAB acquisition (high level for Flame Wheel and high cost for Fire Blast). It's a fair judgement but I am not opposed to A tier. Most Pokemon in this generation require time investment and/or TM support.

I refuse to believe Bellsprout is more efficient than Stantler who can just Return his way through the game with his base 95 attack. Stantler's Return deals damage similar to Golem's Earthquake and Alakazam's Psychic (5-15% damage difference according to showdown's calculator). You need some time before it gets to this power but Headbutt/Stomp is easily sufficient between Ecruteak and Blackthorn. Coverage is indeed a problem since it has Mud-Slap instead of Dig (lmao) and Thief instead of Shadow Ball but it's not like ghost and rock types are very common. Also, having Hypnosis is a nice bonus in this generation IIRC.
On the other hand, Bellsprout requires stopping evolutions, RNGing for Leaf Stone and possibly changing your usual route progress (I don't usually get Sludge Bomb before clearing west Johto for example). Additionally, having to set up in order to win (Sleep Powder, Growth etc.) just hurts its efficiency. I don't doubt it can win battles but those must be slow - Vine Whip and Acid are just laughable STABs midgame (although offences of Weepinbell/Victreebel are quite good).

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Fire Blast/Flame Wheel + Thunder Punch Typhlosion is amazing. The only common thing that resists both attacks is Geodude line and you can brute force your way through it with a strong special STAB IIRC. I assume it was placed in B because of its STAB acquisition (high level for Flame Wheel and high cost for Fire Blast). It's a fair judgement but I am not opposed to A tier. Most Pokemon in this generation require time investment and/or TM support.

I refuse to believe Bellsprout is more efficient than Stantler who can just Return his way through the game with his base 95 attack. Stantler's Return deals damage similar to Golem's Earthquake and Alakazam's Psychic (5-15% damage difference according to showdown's calculator). You need some time before it gets to this power but Headbutt/Stomp is easily sufficient between Ecruteak and Blackthorn. Coverage is indeed a problem since it has Mud-Slap instead of Dig (lmao) and Thief instead of Shadow Ball but it's not like ghost and rock types are very common. Also, having Hypnosis is a nice bonus in this generation IIRC.
On the other hand, Bellsprout requires stopping evolutions, RNGing for Leaf Stone and possibly changing your usual route progress (I don't usually get Sludge Bomb before clearing west Johto for example). Additionally, having to set up in order to win (Sleep Powder, Growth etc.) just hurts its efficiency. I don't doubt it can win battles but those must be slow - Vine Whip and Acid are just laughable STABs midgame (although offences of Weepinbell/Victreebel are quite good).

1. Agreed on Typhlosion. I honestly see them as a low A or a very high B, I think it depends on how you see and play the game. I am used to beating up on as many trainers as I immediately can before fighting the next gym leader (there are exceptions, ofc, I won't fight the Union Cave trainers on the lower floors until after beating Pryce or Chuck for instance). My policy is to stay either on par with the leader's strongest Pokemon or surpass it outright. I have never had issues hitting L40 or surpassing it ingame with a 4-mon team right before the E4 even without capturing legendaries or grinding in the wild at all. In fact, I'm surprised by how well a 4-mon team keeps up with enemy levels without any sort of extra grinding.

The high cost for Fire Blast and high level for Flame Wheel are really overstated as problems, the former is literally a non-issue if you're actually playing efficiently - you can buy the TM at least four times according to the last tier list - and not throwing your money at everything, which would be the opposite of efficient, and the latter can be avoided by beating up trainers until Quilava hits L31 and then taking them to fight Jasmine and/or Pryce. Cyndaquil's ability to beat up bosses isn't far behind Totodile's, especially given that they do better against certain leaders outright like Bugsy. You get a lot of Nuggets in this game, some are hidden ofc, selling those + unneeded items and beating trainers is all you need to do.

2. Stantler's Return is strong, but it comes way too late to be of any real use, and the fact they will never hit super-effectively with their STAB and have no really good stats outside Attack or versatility to make up for it really makes them not-so-good IMHO. Stantler needs more support than Cyndaquil does if anything, you need to get a lot of haircuts, soft reset to make sure the haircuts maximize happiness properly, and shell out X-Items, Vitamins, etc. to get them to the point they can use Return effectively. Stantler literally comes right before Morty in Crystal so not being able to hit Ghosts is actually a huge disadvantage, and he also sucks against Jasmine and Chuck who are kinda next in line - think they can beat Pryce though, but one gym leader really isn't enough to recommend him IMHO. Bellsprout is much better in practice, and here's why.

Bellsprout's Sleep Powder > Stantler's Hypnosis in accuracy. Bellsprout can actually hit mons super-effective with either STAB, even if it takes a very long while for them to really pick up a solid Grass-type move. Sleep Powder + Wrap, at least in the early game, can also help catch annoying fleers like Heracross and Snubbull which is a niche Stantler does not have. Growth sweeping also allows her to crush nearly any opponent if you can set it up and Sleep Powder happens to help with that, something Stantler can't even compare to. Acid is actually quite fine coming off Victreebel's 105 attack, you can easily do Mahogany after Morty instead of Olivine and thereby pick up Sludge Bomb. Most of all, Bellsprout can also be a very useful ally to Cyndaquil trainers against the rival's Croconaw, which too is a benefit Stantler really cannot claim to possess.

3. Stopping evolutions really isn't a big deal given that Weepinbell is perfectly strong enough to work out in the early mid-game, evolving just a tiny bit later (L24 isn't bad even in Johto and should be well before your fights with Chuck, Pryce, or Jasmine) to pick up a useful move earlier on is not a novel concept at all either. The RNGing is not even necessary, the picnicker in my experience is consistent in calling early - as long as her number is the only one you have saved on your phone. As for the slow aspect, you're not wrong at all...but that's also kind of why they're not A-Tier in my book. If we're gonna penalize mons for being slow, Stantler's slow experience group is a more serious issue IMHO as that too will ensure you spend more time training your Pokemon than otherwise and for less gain. Stantler is just meh to me, honestly, much worse than Furret and Raticate.

You also pick up the Bicycle and the route to New Bark from Ecruteak soon after Whitney, so should you really need to RNG (you won't, but still), it won't be a problem.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Testing Cyndaquil, Spearow, Wooper and Snubbull.

Just beat Falkner. I'll post detailed logs when I can.

I can tell in advance that Cyndaquil vs Falkner definitely ain't a "A-Tier" performance.

Interestingly enough, Falkner's Pidgeotto won't use Mud-Slap on Cyndaquil at all. Pidgey can and will. Constantly.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Testing Cyndaquil, Spearow, Wooper and Snubbull.

Just beat Falkner. I'll post detailed logs when I can.

I can tell in advance that Cyndaquil vs Falkner definitely ain't a "A-Tier" performance.

Interestingly enough, Falkner's Pidgeotto won't use Mud-Slap on Cyndaquil at all. Pidgey can and will. Constantly.

You're right, she's S-Tier actually. Beat up Sprout Tower (in addition to Mikey and the Rival who are unavoidable battles) and you're good. You can get to L14 within Falkner's own gym, evolve, and scorch him to ash with Ember - provided you don't use another mon, and given the Pokemon you are using, there's literally no reason you have to. If you use more than one mon, though, I'd agree on B-Tier. S and B average to give you an A.

Also, I stated I would test Snubbull lol, a few posts back. Mind trying Phanpy instead, if Crystal?

Texas Cloverleaf, thoughts?

Random Passerby Don't we need to do write-ups for all the mons we've tested?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

You're right, she's S-Tier actually. Beat up Sprout Tower (in addition to Mikey and the Rival who are unavoidable battles) and you're good. You can get to L14 within Falkner's own gym, evolve, and scorch him to ash with Ember - provided you don't use another mon, and given the Pokemon you are using, there's literally no reason you have to. If you use more than one mon, though, I'd agree on B-Tier. S and B average to give you an A.

Also, I stated I would test Snubbull lol, a few posts back. Mind trying Phanpy instead, if Crystal?

Texas Cloverleaf, thoughts?

Random Passerby Don't we need to do write-ups for all the mons we've tested?

More like C. That's why I'm making sure to do a thorough test. I really can't imagine it making the cut to B.

I'm using the early Spearow. It's a freaking beast so far.

Cynda has no business facing Falkner at Lv. 9. Sprout Tower is not optional.

But like I said, the logs and details will come later.

 

[Random Passerby]

I'm also doing another run with Cyndaquil. Sprout Tower is very important for it to get Ember same as Chikorita for Reflect. I'm at Goldenrod now with Quilava and Noctowl.

Write-ups are better done after finishing your run. For now, we discuss the issues before doing a throughout write-up. Something like what I did in the previous post should be sufficient for now until we finally agree on some placements. Then, we can write those things properly.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

More like C. That's why I'm making sure to do a thorough test. I really can't imagine it making the cut to B.

I'm using the early Spearow. It's a freaking beast so far.

Cynda has no business facing Falkner at Lv. 9. Sprout Tower is not optional.

But like I said, the logs and details will come later.

1. Why are you even facing Falkner at L9? Even GEODUDE can't reliably win that matchup, for crying out loud (and neither can Onix). It's clear as day you need the Sprout Tower experience if you want an efficient fight against Falkner. This is something we need to talk about for sure.

2. Early Spearow is pretty good, they can destroy Sprout Tower and Bugsy and they're useful if you picked Totodile especially. They aren't half bad against Falkner either. Nevertheless, Trade Spearow > Early Spearow, and if you pick Cynda, you really don't need a Flying-type early on at all.

3. Cool. Can't wait to see what you've found.

I'm also doing another run with Cyndaquil. Sprout Tower is very important for it to get Ember same as Chikorita for Reflect. I'm at Goldenrod now with Quilava and Noctowl.

Write-ups are better done after finishing your run. For now, we discuss the issues before doing a throughout write-up. Something like what I did in the previous post should be sufficient for now until we finally agree on some placements. Then, we can write those things properly.

Interested in seeing how things went for you. I'll post updates for Snubbull later.

I have completed my Stantler run, which is why I'm commenting on them to begin with.

 

[Celeb]

2. Stantler's Return is strong, but it comes way too late to be of any real use, and the fact they will never hit super-effectively with their STAB and have no really good stats outside Attack or versatility to make up for it really makes them not-so-good IMHO. Stantler needs more support than Cyndaquil does if anything, you need to get a lot of haircuts, soft reset to make sure the haircuts maximize happiness properly, and shell out X-Items, Vitamins, etc. to get them to the point they can use Return effectively. Stantler literally comes right before Morty in Crystal so not being able to hit Ghosts is actually a huge disadvantage, and he also sucks against Jasmine and Chuck who are kinda next in line - think they can beat Pryce though, but one gym leader really isn't enough to recommend him IMHO. Bellsprout is much better in practice, and here's why.

Bellsprout's Sleep Powder > Stantler's Hypnosis in accuracy. Bellsprout can actually hit mons super-effective with either STAB, even if it takes a very long while for them to really pick up a solid Grass-type move. Sleep Powder + Wrap, at least in the early game, can also help catch annoying fleers like Heracross and Snubbull which is a niche Stantler does not have. Growth sweeping also allows her to crush nearly any opponent if you can set it up and Sleep Powder happens to help with that, something Stantler can't even compare to. Acid is actually quite fine coming off Victreebel's 105 attack, you can easily do Mahogany after Morty instead of Olivine and thereby pick up Sludge Bomb. Most of all, Bellsprout can also be a very useful ally to Cyndaquil trainers against the rival's Croconaw, which too is a benefit Stantler really cannot claim to possess.

You are underestimating Return's value. Pokemon that want it, can freely use it after a dozen of level ups or so. The talk about having to reset for more beneficial haircuts is just not true since the natural travelling, gathering experience and occasional use of items is all a Pokemon needs. I am certain that Stantler can be taught Return after Mahogany and it will improve his damage over Headbutt. Speaking of Stantler's Headbutt - its neutral effectiveness is comparable in damage to SE Vine Whip and Acid from Victreebel. Until you get a Sludge Bomb and evolve Weepinbell, you deal less damage on average.

It really seems like you are biased towards Bellsprout since some of Stantler's disadvantages you listed (e.g. mediocre stats outside of offences) can be applied to it as well. Same thing with their utility - I can't understand how you can praise Sleep Powder while completely disregarding Hypnosis. They do the exact same thing. Accuracy of both is shaky so there is no point in differentiating them this much. I also fail to see the point of Wrap because I don't understand what "fleers like Heracross and Snubbull" means.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

You are underestimating Return's value. Pokemon that want it, can freely use it after a dozen of level ups or so. The talk about having to reset for more beneficial haircuts is just not true since the natural travelling, gathering experience and occasional use of items is all a Pokemon needs. I am certain that Stantler can be taught Return after Mahogany and it will improve his damage over Headbutt. Speaking of Stantler's Headbutt - its neutral effectiveness is comparable in damage to SE Vine Whip and Acid from Victreebel. Until you get a Sludge Bomb and evolve Weepinbell, you deal less damage on average.

It really seems like you are biased towards Bellsprout since some of Stantler's disadvantages you listed (e.g. mediocre stats outside of offences) can be applied to it as well. Same thing with their utility - I can't understand how you can praise Sleep Powder while completely disregarding Hypnosis. They do the exact same thing. Accuracy of both is shaky so there is no point in differentiating them this much. I also fail to see the point of Wrap because I don't understand what "fleers like Heracross and Snubbull" means.

And you are overestimating Return's value, at least on Stantler. Other Normal-types you can attain earlier like Raticate, Pidgeot, Furret, and Early Fearow all should be happier by the point you hit Goldenrod, giving them a leg-up in terms of the damage they can deal with it. All of those mons also have good coverage moves to make them more worthwhile and much better exp groups - Tauros and Miltank, in spite of being in the same experience group, at least have versatility and can use stuff like Strength, Surf, etc. to make them more splashable on a team. Stantler is for all intents and purposes a mono-Normal, which isn't bad but also not really great without a boosting move given you hit nothing SE.

A lot of good points, though I don't appreciate being called ''biased'', people can make mistakes. Point taken about Stantler being stronger than Bellsprout, though I will again say that Bellsprout's ability to hit Pokemon super-effectively, resist a lot of important and common offensive types (Water and Fighting particularly) and potentially sweep opponents they shouldn't with Growth, things Stantler simply cannot do (he's hard-walled by Ghosts, Rocks, and Steels, can't tank anything but Ghosts, and has no setup going for him). Bellsprout can actually solo or near-solo bosses with little support, the same is not true for Stantler, and they can actually act as a useful teammate for capturing mons and type synergize with others.

Sleep Powder is more accurate than Hypnosis, for one. For two, Sleep Powder + Wrap gives Bellsprout a reliable way to catch mons. For three, Sleep Powder synergizes perfectly with Growth-boosting. That's three advantages Bellsprout has over Stantler with using the sleep move. ''Both is shaky'' is not a good argument, we have seen even in competitive battling that there's a major difference between 70 and 60 accuracy for something like Gengar's Hypnosis (was 70 in DP, became 60 in Platinum IIRC), and this is a difference between 75 and 60 accuracy. Less shaky > more shaky.

Heracross and Snubbull are Pokemon who can flee from you while trying to catch them. Heracross in particular has fled multiple times from me in various playthroughs, and both have problematic catch rates, even breaking Ultra Balls at yellow HP. What part of this confuses you?

 

[Celeb]

Heracross and Snubbull are Pokemon who can flee from you while trying to catch them. Heracross in particular has fled multiple times from me in various playthroughs, and both have problematic catch rates, even breaking Ultra Balls at yellow HP. What part of this confuses you?

I either forgot about this mechanic or never encountered it (excluding Legendary Beasts) hence my confusion. Thanks for the information.
As a side note, Snubbull not being caught in Ultra Ball at yellow HP can be considered pretty unlucky. This thing has a good catch rate unlike Heracross.

Out of sick curiosity I decided to try Mud Slap Stantler on Ecruteak Gym. I dug up my old save file, caught the first Stantler I found (checked its DV: 10 HP / 7 Atk / 4 Def / 0 Special / 3 Speed), trained it a bit so it wasn't so underleveled and decided to try it in the gym. The result is certainly funny and interesting.

Reindeer vs dead boys

8:30 for Morty battle.

Second Morty battle (without gym trainers)

It isn't sweeping but, surprisingly, it does provide some good support in the gym. It can take out half of Morty's team without RNG (Gastly and one Haunter who doesn't have Curse) but needs insane RNG for better results.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I either forgot about this mechanic or never encountered it (excluding Legendary Beasts) hence my confusion. Thanks for the information.
As a side note, Snubbull not being caught in Ultra Ball at yellow HP can be considered pretty unlucky. This thing has a good catch rate unlike Heracross.

Out of sick curiosity I decided to try Mud Slap Stantler on Ecruteak Gym. I dug up my old save file, caught the first Stantler I found (checked its DV: 10 HP / 7 Atk / 4 Def / 0 Special / 3 Speed), trained it a bit so it wasn't so underleveled and decided to try it in the gym. The result is certainly funny and interesting.

Reindeer vs dead boys

8:30 for Morty battle.

Second Morty battle (without gym trainers)

It isn't sweeping but, surprisingly, it does provide some good support in the gym. It can take out half of Morty's team without RNG (Gastly and one Haunter who doesn't have Curse) but needs insane RNG for better results.

I threw multiple balls at Snubbull, not just the Ultra Ball (I tried Poke Balls and maybe Great Balls first, she ran away after breaking the Ultra Ball). Unlucky maybe, but Johto in my experience should be infamous for nearly every Pokemon seemingly being tricky to catch, even the weak ones.

Stantler isn't bad, they're just not what I'd call good either. C is therefore a perfect fit IMHO.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Why are you even facing Falkner at L9?

Because Pidgeotto is at Lv. 9.

Even GEODUDE can't reliably win that matchup, for crying out loud (and neither can Onix).

Spearow consistently sweeps Falkner at Lv. 9. All you need is a held Berry.

I'm dead serious.

I'll still need to check IVs and the like, but from what I tested, Spearow outright dunks on Falkner like it dunks on Pidgey in every in-game tier list that both are together.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

Because Pidgeotto is at Lv. 9.



Spearow consistently sweeps Falkner at Lv. 9. All you need is a held Berry.

I'm dead serious.

I'll still need to check IVs and the like, but from what I tested, Spearow outright dunks on Falkner like it dunks on Pidgey in every in-game tier list that both are together.

Okay, and? Pidgeotto is literally an evolved Pokemon with access to both its STABs and a hax coverage move. You're setting your Pokemon up for failure by arbitrarily limiting your unevolved Pokemon to Falkner's level. This isn't a speedrun or ingame challenge tier list, it makes no sense to do that when training with Route 30+31, Sprout Tower, and the (unavoidable) gym trainers by all accounts should make even a two-mon team stronger than L9. And saying ''Spearow sweeps Falkner''...so what? What if I don't want to use Spearow? What if I want to use Zubat, Poliwag, or something else?

Screw everyone who doesn't pick Spearow, right?

You aren't wrong about Spearow given my own calculations, but it's still...super arbitrary to limit your Pokemon that way for no reason. Mind telling me how you trained your Pokemon? Did you do Sprout Tower?

 

[Random Passerby]

Because Pidgeotto is at Lv. 9.



Spearow consistently sweeps Falkner at Lv. 9. All you need is a held Berry.

I'm dead serious.

I'll still need to check IVs and the like, but from what I tested, Spearow outright dunks on Falkner like it dunks on Pidgey in every in-game tier list that both are together.

I'm not sure how you did that. A Gust from Pidgeotto takes about 40% from Spearow and it is faster while only being 5HKOed by Peck. My Spearow was Lv11 and it struggled in a 1 v 1 against Lv9 Pidgeotto. Fwiw, Sprout Tower is optional, yes, but most people who play GSC will go there (unlike deep Union Cave where most players won't go, for instance) so why do you want to exclude it?

 

[aegon the unlikely]

I'm not sure how you did that. A Gust from Pidgeotto takes about 40% from Spearow and it is faster while only being 5HKOed by Peck. My Spearow was Lv11 and it struggled in a 1 v 1 against Lv9 Pidgeotto. Fwiw, Sprout Tower is optional, yes, but most people who play GSC will go there (unlike deep Union Cave where most players won't go, for instance) so why do you want to exclude it?

Did some quick calcs.

Lvl 9 0 Atk Pidgeotto Gust vs. Lvl 9 0 HP / 0 Def Spearow: 7-10 (25 - 35.7%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
Lvl 9 0 Atk Spearow Peck vs. Lvl 9 0 HP / 0 Def Pidgeotto: 6-7 (18.1 - 21.2%) -- possible 5HKO

Maybe a Berry is enough to tilt the matchup? Could be an IV thing too.

Also, another thing I wanted to clarify - how seriously should we evaluate Kanto, Blue, Red, etc...?

 

[Celeb]

To be perfectly honest with everyone, Stantler is my least favourite Johto Pokemon, yet I decided to check Aegon's words about its efficiency in unfavourable gym battles.

Cianwood Gym:
Defeated every single trainer alone (excluding the one with Hitmonlee). After that, it straight up solo'd Chuck 3 out of 6 times in my attempts while being below his Pokemon levels - Primeape always lost to it, Poliwrath HAD to hit with Dynamicpunch within his 3 turns in order to win.
Olivine City:
It is worth mentioning that everything in Olivine Lighthouse and on water routes is within 1-2HKO from FRESHLY CAUGHT Stantler and its Headbutt (excluding Noctowl who was 5 levels above Stantler, lol). As for Jasmine herself - Stantler lost all 6 times out of 6 against Jasmine but pretty consistently swept Magnemites (lost once due to paraconfusion and Thunderbolts) and made Steelix useless thanks to accuracy drops from Mud Slap 3 times.

The Deer's first attempts at gyms

Chucky boy

Cheekie girl

Bottom line, Stantler is not hard walled by much in midgame - it even wins against unfavourable type matchups against enemies on a similar level which is impressive. It struggles with the most powerful Pokemon like Morty's Gengar, Chuck's Poliwrath and Jasmine's Steelix.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

To be perfectly honest with everyone, Stantler is my least favourite Johto Pokemon, yet I decided to check Aegon's words about its efficiency in unfavourable gym battles.

Cianwood Gym:
Defeated every single trainer alone (excluding the one with Hitmonlee). After that, it straight up solo'd Chuck 3 out of 6 times in my attempts while being below his Pokemon levels - Primeape always lost to it, Poliwrath HAD to hit with Dynamicpunch within his 3 turns in order to win.
Olivine City:
It is worth mentioning that everything in Olivine Lighthouse and on water routes is within 1-2HKO from FRESHLY CAUGHT Stantler and its Headbutt (excluding Noctowl who was 5 levels above Stantler, lol). As for Jasmine herself - Stantler lost all 6 times out of 6 against Jasmine but pretty consistently swept Magnemites (lost once due to paraconfusion and Thunderbolts) and made Steelix useless thanks to accuracy drops from Mud Slap 3 times.

The Deer's first attempts at gyms

Chucky boy

Cheekie girl

Bottom line, Stantler is not hard walled by much in midgame - it even wins against unfavourable type matchups against enemies on a similar level which is impressive. It struggles with the most powerful Pokemon like Morty's Gengar, Chuck's Poliwrath and Jasmine's Steelix.

Interesting, and yet Stantler lost 3/6 of your battles against Chuck (whose moves are notoriously unreliable in accuracy) and all 6 against Jasmine, so...not really a very strong case for their use. Victreebel would do even better and potentially sweep Jasmine outright.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I'm not sure how you did that. A Gust from Pidgeotto takes about 40% from Spearow and it is faster while only being 5HKOed by Peck. My Spearow was Lv11 and it struggled in a 1 v 1 against Lv9 Pidgeotto. Fwiw, Sprout Tower is optional, yes, but most people who play GSC will go there (unlike deep Union Cave where most players won't go, for instance) so why do you want to exclude it?

Because GOAT Platinum stans are built different. This is light work. Didn't want to upload from the phone because you can only do one pic at a time.

No Wild Grinding. Raised from Lv. 2 to Lv. 9 with nothing but trainer exp.

So here's a lesson for anyone that didn't get it. If I say I did something, I did the thing. Run all the calcs you want with these stats.

And Pidgeotto's Gust does 6 damage to Spearow. After a Growl.

Post Sprout Tower it doesn't even need that.

Edit2: As for "Sprout Tower banning", I never advocated for that.

What I said, and this was according to the definitions mods told me, was that it was an optional area. A detour.

Is it a short one? Yes.
Is it mandatory like HGSS? No.
Is it necessary to beat Falkner? Depends on your team.

 

[aegon the unlikely]

View attachment 312130
View attachment 312131

Because GOAT Platinum stans are built different. This is light work. Didn't want to upload from the phone because you can only do one pic at a time.

No Wild Grinding. Raised from Lv. 2 to Lv. 9 with nothing but trainer exp.

So here's a lesson for anyone that didn't get it. If I say I did something, I did the thing. Run all the calcs you want with these stats.

And Pidgeotto's Gust does 6 damage to Spearow. After a Growl.

Post Sprout Tower it doesn't even need that.

Edit2: As for "Sprout Tower banning", I never advocated for that.

What I said, and this was according to the definitions mods told me, was that it was an optional area. A detour.

Is it a short one? Yes.
Is it mandatory like HGSS? No.
Is it necessary to beat Falkner? Depends on your team.

Hmm, good to know. I apologize for putting words in your mouth.

We tier list people really need to get our shit together, we should have sorted this shit out at the beginning.