OK, it has been 3 weeks since I last posted. I think people saw it coming but I now no longer think I am suitable to run this kind of thread. Real life job change has been keeping me really busy and I don't have much time to spare nowadays. Maybe someone else can take over. I can contribute here and there but it won't be that frequent anymore compared to before.
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GSC In-Game Tier List Mk. IV
- Thread starter Random Passerby
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Hey, sorry I haven't been able to contribute to the tiering thread. I've been super swamped with work too unfortunately and confess to not having the time to test any of the Pokemon I said I would, at least not yet.
Don't be harsh on yourself, you're just busy. Maybe you could do more when you're hopefully freer (maybe in the summer)?
Don't be harsh on yourself, you're just busy. Maybe you could do more when you're hopefully freer (maybe in the summer)?
A few thoughts (still haven't gotten around to testing) on the starters.
In terms of Gym matchups, Totodile beats the brakes off Cyndaquil and Chikorita both. Rage can crush Falkner, Bugsy, and Whitney, Surf can hit Morty very hard, Dig + Surf destroys Jasmine, Surf beats Piloswine (Seel + Dewgong go down to Return), and Clair's Dragonairs eat Ice Punches while Kingdra eats Returns. Dude has practically no bad matchup, Chuck is the closest thing and you outpace and bash him with Return anyhow. Cyndaquil does moderately well against Falkner, roasts Bugsy...and then kinda needs TM support or Flame Wheel to do well against the rest. Fury Cutter/Rollout can take Whitney and Pryce though, Dig can really hurt Morty, and Flame Wheel barring a crit roasts Jasmine.
For the E4, however, Typhlosion can practically solo the members with some healing and PP support between fights and contribute against Lance surprisingly well (you can beat Gyarados and Charizard pretty smoothly and with healing support, can manage one or even two D-Nites provided they aren't really lucky, my logs demonstrate this pretty consistently actually). Charcoal Fire Blast alone can OHKO multiple Pokemon - add Sunny Day in and it can OHKO practically everyone, barring Houndoom, Umbreon, and Muk - they're 2HKOed. Feraligatr cannot do this (at least not without more healing support) and actually has issues with Lance too (all of his Dragons can live an Ice Punch generally, you can upgrade to Blizzard I suppose).
IMO, Cyndaquil > Totodile in the endgame, though Totodile admittedly > Cyndaquil the rest of the time and overall. If the game's divided into three parts (early game, mid game, and endgame), Totodile does better for 2/3 and Cyndaquil does better for 1/3. That said both Totodile and Cyndaquil are pretty good even in the parts of the game they're less good at (Cynda does a lot better in the midgame than previously anticipated for one), so my takeaway is that the gap between them shouldn't be huge, though it definitely favors Totodile again.
Curious to see how Chikorita(F) fares, as that's the one I promised to test. IMO Chikorita should be able to contend against any gym apart from Azalea or Ecruteak, though I don't see him necessarily being dominant like Cynda is against Bugsy or Totodile is against like 4-5 leaders lol. The E4 performance is arguably more worrying as some of them (looking at you, Will and Koga) really don't match up nicely against Meganium.
In terms of Gym matchups, Totodile beats the brakes off Cyndaquil and Chikorita both. Rage can crush Falkner, Bugsy, and Whitney, Surf can hit Morty very hard, Dig + Surf destroys Jasmine, Surf beats Piloswine (Seel + Dewgong go down to Return), and Clair's Dragonairs eat Ice Punches while Kingdra eats Returns. Dude has practically no bad matchup, Chuck is the closest thing and you outpace and bash him with Return anyhow. Cyndaquil does moderately well against Falkner, roasts Bugsy...and then kinda needs TM support or Flame Wheel to do well against the rest. Fury Cutter/Rollout can take Whitney and Pryce though, Dig can really hurt Morty, and Flame Wheel barring a crit roasts Jasmine.
For the E4, however, Typhlosion can practically solo the members with some healing and PP support between fights and contribute against Lance surprisingly well (you can beat Gyarados and Charizard pretty smoothly and with healing support, can manage one or even two D-Nites provided they aren't really lucky, my logs demonstrate this pretty consistently actually). Charcoal Fire Blast alone can OHKO multiple Pokemon - add Sunny Day in and it can OHKO practically everyone, barring Houndoom, Umbreon, and Muk - they're 2HKOed. Feraligatr cannot do this (at least not without more healing support) and actually has issues with Lance too (all of his Dragons can live an Ice Punch generally, you can upgrade to Blizzard I suppose).
IMO, Cyndaquil > Totodile in the endgame, though Totodile admittedly > Cyndaquil the rest of the time and overall. If the game's divided into three parts (early game, mid game, and endgame), Totodile does better for 2/3 and Cyndaquil does better for 1/3. That said both Totodile and Cyndaquil are pretty good even in the parts of the game they're less good at (Cynda does a lot better in the midgame than previously anticipated for one), so my takeaway is that the gap between them shouldn't be huge, though it definitely favors Totodile again.
Curious to see how Chikorita(F) fares, as that's the one I promised to test. IMO Chikorita should be able to contend against any gym apart from Azalea or Ecruteak, though I don't see him necessarily being dominant like Cynda is against Bugsy or Totodile is against like 4-5 leaders lol. The E4 performance is arguably more worrying as some of them (looking at you, Will and Koga) really don't match up nicely against Meganium.
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I had a run that still needed to conclude, so here we are
my thoughts are that the speed becomes a huge hindrance against both ursaring and granbull, and it makes me wonder if A Tier is really appropriate, since even if they can 2HKO everything, they're limited in their capability to sweep. however, since tauros and miltank are in B, then they probably should stay there. elemental punches also allow them to deal with aerodactyl, against whom tauros is hopeless
kenya and spearow actually seemed more useful because of the speed, but they had their own issues, namely frailty and the fact that they didn't hit as hard as granbull and ursaring. it's like if they had to make a trade-off. and sometimes the speed was more important than the attack power since both 2hko'd. spearow is also quite weak in the end-game but still gets the job done, albeit with ranges, unlike kenya
this is specially noteworthy against will, who damages your mons heavily
ultimately they're still able to 2HKO the majority of the game at worst, so they'll always have the chance to be useful, without the need of irreplaceable investment like game corner or non-purchasable TMs, and thus I think they can stay at A tier. S tier would be overrating them
Fearow Lv41 (w/ Pink Bow): 245 Friendship Return OHKOs Jynx, 2HKOs Xatu, and 3HKOs Slowbro. Drill Peck misses out on the OHKO against Exeggutor by very little. Fearow outspeeds everyone. Psychic 2HKOs Fearow.
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): 232 Friendship Return OHKOs the first Xatu and Jynx, and 2HKOs Slowbro and the second Jynx. Drill Peck OHKOs Exeggutor. Psychic 3HKOs Kenya, so it can potentially sweep since Kenya outspeeds.
Granbull Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow | Spell Tag): 230 Friendship Return OHKOs Xatu (the second one is a range) and Jynx, and 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. With the Shadow Ball TM, Granbull still 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. Xatu and Jynx outspeed, while Exeggutor and Slowbro don't. Psychic 3HKOs Granbull.
Ursaring Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): 252 Friendship Return OHKOs Xatu and Jynx, and 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. Xatu and Jynx outspeed, while Exeggutor and Slowbro don't. Psychic 3HKOs Ursaring.
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): 232 Friendship Return OHKOs the first Xatu and Jynx, and 2HKOs Slowbro and the second Jynx. Drill Peck OHKOs Exeggutor. Psychic 3HKOs Kenya, so it can potentially sweep since Kenya outspeeds.
Granbull Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow | Spell Tag): 230 Friendship Return OHKOs Xatu (the second one is a range) and Jynx, and 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. With the Shadow Ball TM, Granbull still 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. Xatu and Jynx outspeed, while Exeggutor and Slowbro don't. Psychic 3HKOs Granbull.
Ursaring Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): 252 Friendship Return OHKOs Xatu and Jynx, and 2HKOs Exeggutor and Slowbro. Xatu and Jynx outspeed, while Exeggutor and Slowbro don't. Psychic 3HKOs Ursaring.
Fearow Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): Drill Peck OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 3HKOs Forretress. Return 2HKOs both Crobat and Muk. Crobat outspeeds Fearow, and can disrupt the sweep with Double Team.
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): Drill Peck OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 3HKOs Forretress. Return 2HKOs both Crobat and Muk. Crobat outspeeds Kenya, and can disrupt the sweep with Double Team.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 2HKOs Muk and Crobat. Fire Punch OHKOs Forretress. Venomoth and Crobat outspeed. Double Team can disrupt the sweep.
Ursaring Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 2HKOs Muk and Crobat. Fire Punch OHKOs Forretress. With the Earthquake TM, Ursaring can OHKO Muk. Venomoth and Crobat outspeed.
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): Drill Peck OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 3HKOs Forretress. Return 2HKOs both Crobat and Muk. Crobat outspeeds Kenya, and can disrupt the sweep with Double Team.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 2HKOs Muk and Crobat. Fire Punch OHKOs Forretress. Venomoth and Crobat outspeed. Double Team can disrupt the sweep.
Ursaring Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): Return OHKOs Ariados and Venomoth, and 2HKOs Muk and Crobat. Fire Punch OHKOs Forretress. With the Earthquake TM, Ursaring can OHKO Muk. Venomoth and Crobat outspeed.
Fearow Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): Even with Sharp Beak, Fearow misses the OHKO against Machamp with Drill Peck. Otherwise, Kenya OHKOs Hitmontop, Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan. Return 3HKOs Onix, which 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Machamp can also 2HKO back with Cross Chop or Rock Slide.
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): Even with Sharp Beak, Kenya misses the OHKO against Machamp with Drill Peck. Otherwise, Kenya OHKOs Hitmontop, Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan. Return 3HKOs Onix, which 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Machamp can also 2HKO back with Cross Chop or Rock Slide.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Hitmonlee outspeeds and OHKOs with Hi-Jump Kick. Ice Punch OHKOs Onix. Return OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmontop, and 2HKOs Machamp (who unfortunately OHKOs back with Cross Chop).
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow): Hitmonlee outspeeds and OHKOs with Hi-Jump Kick. Ice Punch OHKOs Onix. Return OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmontop, and 2HKOs Machamp (who unfortunately OHKOs back with Cross Chop).
Kenya Lv46 (w/ Pink Bow): Even with Sharp Beak, Kenya misses the OHKO against Machamp with Drill Peck. Otherwise, Kenya OHKOs Hitmontop, Hitmonlee and Hitmonchan. Return 3HKOs Onix, which 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Machamp can also 2HKO back with Cross Chop or Rock Slide.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Hitmonlee outspeeds and OHKOs with Hi-Jump Kick. Ice Punch OHKOs Onix. Return OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmontop, and 2HKOs Machamp (who unfortunately OHKOs back with Cross Chop).
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow): Hitmonlee outspeeds and OHKOs with Hi-Jump Kick. Ice Punch OHKOs Onix. Return OHKOs Hitmonchan and Hitmontop, and 2HKOs Machamp (who unfortunately OHKOs back with Cross Chop).
Fearow Lv42 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 3HKOs Umbreon, 2HKOs Houndoom and OHKOs Murkrow. Drill Peck 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs Vileplume. Sand Attack and Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Kenya Lv47 (w/ Pink Bow): Return misses out on the 2HKO against Umbreon by shortly, but it OHKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Houndoom. Drill Peck 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs Vileplume. Sand Attack and Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Bite 3HKOs Gengar. Return OHKOs Murkrow, and 2HKOs Umbreon, Vileplume and Houndoom. With the Shadow Ball TM, Granbull OHKOs Gengar. Umbreon, Gengar, Murkrow and Houndoom outspeed. Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow): Faint Attack 3HKOs Gengar. Return OHKOs Murkrow, and 2HKOs Umbreon, Vileplume and Houndoom. With the Earthquake TM, Ursaring OHKOs Gengar. Gengar, Murkrow and Houndoom outspeed. Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Kenya Lv47 (w/ Pink Bow): Return misses out on the 2HKO against Umbreon by shortly, but it OHKOs Murkrow and 2HKOs Houndoom. Drill Peck 2HKOs Gengar and OHKOs Vileplume. Sand Attack and Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Granbull Lv44 (w/ Pink Bow): Bite 3HKOs Gengar. Return OHKOs Murkrow, and 2HKOs Umbreon, Vileplume and Houndoom. With the Shadow Ball TM, Granbull OHKOs Gengar. Umbreon, Gengar, Murkrow and Houndoom outspeed. Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow): Faint Attack 3HKOs Gengar. Return OHKOs Murkrow, and 2HKOs Umbreon, Vileplume and Houndoom. With the Earthquake TM, Ursaring OHKOs Gengar. Gengar, Murkrow and Houndoom outspeed. Curse can disrupt the sweep.
Fearow Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados and Charizard, but it's a 3HKO against Dragonite and Aerodactyl, who sadly outspeeds and 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Thunder, Rock Slide and Blizzard can also defeat Fearow. Only Aerodactyl outspeeds Fearow.
Kenya Lv48 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Charizard and the first two Dragonites, and 3HKOs the third Dragonite and Aerodactyl, who sadly outspeeds and 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Thunder can also defeat Kenya. Only Aerodactyl outspeeds Kenya.
Granbull Lv45 (w/ Pink Bow | Nevermeltice | Magnet): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Dragonite and 3HKOs Aerodactyl, but two Hyper Beams take Granbull down. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados. Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonite. Both elemental punches can 2HKO Aerodactyl. Everyone outspeeds Granbull.
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow | Nevermeltice | Magnet): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Dragonite and 3HKOs Aerodactyl, but two Hyper Beams take Ursaring down. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados. Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonite. Both elemental punches can 2HKO Aerodactyl. Everyone outspeeds Ursaring.
Kenya Lv48 (w/ Pink Bow): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Charizard and the first two Dragonites, and 3HKOs the third Dragonite and Aerodactyl, who sadly outspeeds and 2HKOs back with Rock Slide. Thunder can also defeat Kenya. Only Aerodactyl outspeeds Kenya.
Granbull Lv45 (w/ Pink Bow | Nevermeltice | Magnet): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Dragonite and 3HKOs Aerodactyl, but two Hyper Beams take Granbull down. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados. Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonite. Both elemental punches can 2HKO Aerodactyl. Everyone outspeeds Granbull.
Ursaring Lv43 (w/ Pink Bow | Nevermeltice | Magnet): Return 2HKOs Gyarados, Dragonite and 3HKOs Aerodactyl, but two Hyper Beams take Ursaring down. Thunder Punch 2HKOs Gyarados. Ice Punch 2HKOs Dragonite. Both elemental punches can 2HKO Aerodactyl. Everyone outspeeds Ursaring.
my thoughts are that the speed becomes a huge hindrance against both ursaring and granbull, and it makes me wonder if A Tier is really appropriate, since even if they can 2HKO everything, they're limited in their capability to sweep. however, since tauros and miltank are in B, then they probably should stay there. elemental punches also allow them to deal with aerodactyl, against whom tauros is hopeless
kenya and spearow actually seemed more useful because of the speed, but they had their own issues, namely frailty and the fact that they didn't hit as hard as granbull and ursaring. it's like if they had to make a trade-off. and sometimes the speed was more important than the attack power since both 2hko'd. spearow is also quite weak in the end-game but still gets the job done, albeit with ranges, unlike kenya
this is specially noteworthy against will, who damages your mons heavily
ultimately they're still able to 2HKO the majority of the game at worst, so they'll always have the chance to be useful, without the need of irreplaceable investment like game corner or non-purchasable TMs, and thus I think they can stay at A tier. S tier would be overrating them
Kenya > Fearow, I said it before and I'll say it again, and Xator has proven it.
Surely Spearow and Kenya need to be tiered apart.
Surely Spearow and Kenya need to be tiered apart.
i don't think i have proven anything, i'd rather see both kenya and spearow drop to A, and the differences are not that consequential
Idk. Normal Spearow suffers from a lower exp. growth, a bad curve as Volt-Ikazuchi (correctly IMO) noted. Kenya's faster experience growth makes it better not only from a combat perspective but also a training one.
Xator_Nova Revelation Volt-Ikazuchi ASMRxism Do any of y'all have access to the means to trade? I can't help thinking Steelix and Scizor may have a legitimate shot to be in A-tier given the sheer amount of good matchups they should have in the game, even accounting for the time-consuming aspect of procuring a Metal Coat from Magnemites (you should be able to do this relatively easily if you have Thief, so you can realistically get either after only four badges). I'd like to do it myself, but I don't have anyone to trade with.
I have trades but I haven't finished my Crystal run with Steelix (Rocky). I liked him quite a bit, although I cheated; I transfered a Metal Coat from a previous save through PS2. I can't speak to the amount of time it would take to go out of one's way to Thief a Metal Coat from a Magnemite, but it seems too time consuming and actively RNG-based to warrant a tier boost, rather than passively like waiting for the Stone phone calls. Kinda goes back to the issue of "how much of this is someone really gonna do in a playthrough?" imo
It's worth a mention in any writeups that farming a Metal Coat is possible and boosts their viability if you commit, but among the readers of this list who will have access trades, how many will really bother? Kinda seems to go against the quality of "efficiency" most A-tiers are held to.
That all said, I don't know about Scizor but Steelix has felt consistently powerful and would easily be A tier if not for the hassle of obtaining it.
It's worth a mention in any writeups that farming a Metal Coat is possible and boosts their viability if you commit, but among the readers of this list who will have access trades, how many will really bother? Kinda seems to go against the quality of "efficiency" most A-tiers are held to.
That all said, I don't know about Scizor but Steelix has felt consistently powerful and would easily be A tier if not for the hassle of obtaining it.
Agree mostly. I honestly need to test the Metal Coat hunting process myself, depending on how it goes it may not be very fun.
Good to hear your Steelix was strong. Kinda annoying GF made it unnecessarily hard to get one though.
Basically the point where Rocky falls off in power is when Steelix comes online and it's not bad at all. There's a lot of random elemental weaknesses that boss battles use that hit it hard but it walls entire trainers including every member of Team Rocket that doesn't have a Houndoom. Iron Tail isn't the most competitive TM either and it loves it.
GSC in general suffers a lot from being less Gen II and more Gen I 2. Half the coolest Gen II Pokemon Dark and Steel types would be great in GSC runs if they weren't stuck in Kanto.
GSC in general suffers a lot from being less Gen II and more Gen I 2. Half the coolest Gen II Pokemon Dark and Steel types would be great in GSC runs if they weren't stuck in Kanto.
If you don't mind me asking, can you please test Rocky (Steelix)? I think Steelix might make it to B-Tier (the Metal Coat is likely a pain to get but other than that, their matchups should be incredible - something your statements seem to back up) and as much as I'd love to test using Rocky/Steelix myself, really don't have the means to trade. Being able to deuce on gyms 1-4, Jasmine, Pryce (more or less), Team Rocket, the Rival (sans Feraligatr/Typhlosion), Koga, Will (more or less, given the speed differential), and Lance's Aerodactyl/Dragonites is no mean feat IMO.
I'm going to get around to testing Chikorita, Tentacool, Abra (No Trade), and Rocky (No Trade).
Texas Cloverleaf Thoughts?
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Quick log. Just beat Falkner.
Chikorita is...not good. Dude lost to Falkner 3/3 times, even though I made sure to have and use Reflect in all three fights. Razor Leaf can't even reliably 3HKO Pidgey and barely does a thing to Pidgeotto, who outpaces even a L12 Chikorita at times. Even a held Berry didn't tilt the fight in my favor. D-tier at best. Razor Leaf also isn't useful even outside of Falkner, given the great number of resisting Pokemon you face.
Rocky Onix is literal trash. Picks up Rock Throw at L14 (overleveled) and below that, can barely even KO Pidgey reliably while getting his accuracy decimated by Mud-Slaps. Onix also started disobeying me around the L11 mark, making this matchup even worse. He also has the offense of a wet paper bag, even Screeches aren't enough to KO stuff in one hit. Honestly, Rocky (No Trade) is so terrible that I frankly give up testing this guy any further. Perhaps a Union Cave Onix is better, but the one you get in Violet is a dud.
Sentret is not half-bad. Setting up to +6 with Defense Curl and spamming Quick Attack beat Falkner 2/3 of times, albeit a Berry helped. The third time Pidgeotto critted me at a bad time. B-tier, rises to A if you take into account beating up fodder.
Yeah, it's safe to say I've never been disappointed in a test to this degree ever before, not even Stantler or Seadra came this close.
Chikorita stays
Chikorita is...not good. Dude lost to Falkner 3/3 times, even though I made sure to have and use Reflect in all three fights. Razor Leaf can't even reliably 3HKO Pidgey and barely does a thing to Pidgeotto, who outpaces even a L12 Chikorita at times. Even a held Berry didn't tilt the fight in my favor. D-tier at best. Razor Leaf also isn't useful even outside of Falkner, given the great number of resisting Pokemon you face.
Rocky Onix is literal trash. Picks up Rock Throw at L14 (overleveled) and below that, can barely even KO Pidgey reliably while getting his accuracy decimated by Mud-Slaps. Onix also started disobeying me around the L11 mark, making this matchup even worse. He also has the offense of a wet paper bag, even Screeches aren't enough to KO stuff in one hit. Honestly, Rocky (No Trade) is so terrible that I frankly give up testing this guy any further. Perhaps a Union Cave Onix is better, but the one you get in Violet is a dud.
Sentret is not half-bad. Setting up to +6 with Defense Curl and spamming Quick Attack beat Falkner 2/3 of times, albeit a Berry helped. The third time Pidgeotto critted me at a bad time. B-tier, rises to A if you take into account beating up fodder.
Yeah, it's safe to say I've never been disappointed in a test to this degree ever before, not even Stantler or Seadra came this close.
Chikorita stays
Now, i dont know the technical details behind it, but i saw a couple of runners who did some manipulations to get an early master ball, then catch Raikou right in Ecruteak, crystal version.
Too much of an exploit or unreliable to really count? Otherwise, getting Raikou (fairly)early is quite something, it even had a good hidden power.
Too much of an exploit or unreliable to really count? Otherwise, getting Raikou (fairly)early is quite something, it even had a good hidden power.
In general, In-Game Tier lists do not consider non-trivial* RNG Manipulation tactics as while they are efficient from a speedrun context, they can also further distort from the premise of these tier lists to determine which Pokémon are your most efficient options when playing through the game casually. It's a Pandora's Box that can potentially be used to draw conclusions well beyond the pale (e.g. Manipulating Battles through frame-perfect inputs to make some extremely unlikely scenario happening and using it as justification for some rank rise).
It's not the most comprehensive argument as to why we don't consider these methods, but we do want to keep some semblance of sanity in these lists, as their relevance is already a stretch to begin with.
*: I define the difference between trivial and non-trivial manipulation as something that one could easily do casually. For example, using a Guard Spec. on Red's Pikachu and raising Attack high enough to lock it into using Charm is a form of manipulation that can be trivially achieved.
What happened to Spearow? It's missing from the list.
It knows what it did.
(It was removed from S and prob never assigned a new tier lol)
Yeah, you're right about that. I don't know if all that's possible on the VC version of the game though.
To be fair, all you need to get a Master Ball is keep resetting the time.
True, but i think there has to be some other things at play here, to just get hidden power ice like that.
Yeah, definitely lol.
I'm not gonna lie, if someone can crack a code to capture Entei or Raikou super early for the VC version sans cheating of any kind, it'd be really cool and could end up pushing the duo into S-tier proper (you can theoretically get them before Morty, so you'd be able to beat 5 gyms, the E4, and Rockets with them). L40 is insane in Johto given the level curve and at that point in the game, they can steamroll practically any opponent.
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