How does it feel to think you might eventually have singlehandedly gotten quick claw banned.Nooo don't ban the funny meme your so sexy aha
How does it feel to think you might eventually have singlehandedly gotten quick claw banned.Nooo don't ban the funny meme your so sexy aha
Ok sorry I honestly think a ton of the points in your post were fair and it was a well reasoned post but what on earth does this mean? How is volcarona a placebo?
At the end of the day, quick claw is in the same category as things like King's Rock or Bright Powder. It's pure RNG without any other utility that would make it a valuable addition to the meta. It doesn't really deserve discussion the way Kingambit, Volc, or Zama do/did because they have both positive and negative effects on OU.
That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.
That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.
I'm a little confused on the QC debate because of glowbro. Would Quick Draw end up getting the boot if Quick Claw was banned? Is the issue here the continued inconsistent priority fishing being potentially uncompetitive or the ability to spam it, since glowbro is one of the weaker users? (I have no stake in this fight other than thinking that light clay is the bigger problem with the monoclaw team than the claw itself).
Fwiw I've wanted quick draw and qc banned since last gen for personal reasons, always hated them and thought they were kinda annoying.I'm a little confused on the QC debate because of glowbro. Would Quick Draw end up getting the boot if Quick Claw was banned? Is the issue here the continued inconsistent priority fishing being potentially uncompetitive or the ability to spam it, since glowbro is one of the weaker users? (I have no stake in this fight other than thinking that light clay is the bigger problem with the monoclaw team than the claw itself).
If Jirachi had a hidden ability or had absolutely no utility outside of abusing Serene Grace I genuinely would not be opposed to it; the loss of a fairly useful mon with a good typing and 100s across the board would really be the only downside there. Same thing with abilities like Super Luck, or moves such as Focus Energy, that don't really get used outside of really gimmicky sets anyway. Of course a line must be drawn somewhere, and I'd say that Static and Flame Body aren't uncompetitive, but all the other hypotheticals would be okay in my eyes.If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.
"But Serene Grace has been fine in OU for many generations," falls flat as a reason not to ban it, since Quick Claw was also not an issue in OU for many generations.
inb4 super luck and focus energy go on the chopping block for 'increasing the chance of RNG'.
Low RNG is not a big deal, consistent RNG is bullshit in the scenario a mon can just cheese through all its problem (jirachi, togekiss) especially if it doesn't have many problems to begin with such as revenge killers (if you start complaining about being RNG'd by a serene grace dunsparce is a sign its time to retire).
Typically its the context of what that RNG does; i.e. landing OHKO moves being devastating. Meanwhile actually landing moves like hypnosis can be crippling but also you could argue despite the luck factor, there's reliable sleep options so relying on hypnosis is actually griefing yourself. Crit builds don't work well because all the pokemon have serious issues soi even when you maximize crit odds you don't usually see the pay off as much or its easier to just run a standard set for said mon (rain kingdra vs critdra.)
Yeah the example isn't the best but is works to show how evasion can be worse than quick claw, evasion can negate not only the offensive counterplay but also the defensive and potentially giving set up sweepers several free turns with the rival's decisions not mattering at all. Other thing is that the mono claw team does is removing the low speed issue not just with quick claw but also with screens, IMO that is what makes that team win more games if played well than quick claw itself (on that we agree, the team will be better if you give other teams to those mons). Screens make the team way harder to revenge than quick claw, as you mentioned Valiant can KO a weakened Ursa but what how can the ursa be weakened in the first place if it doesn't take burn damage and beats defensive pokemons easily? That is the catch with the team, even if you don't get relevant quick claw procs the team still has the advantage by winning most trades, Valiant is strong but with screens and a Grimm's taunt not allowing it to boost to bypass the screens (another good choice by Delibirb Heart, running taunt over parting shot, stopping set up is more important that pivoting for this team) it just gets OHKO by any of the attackers and it cannot OHKO anything back unless there are a lot of chip on advance, something is hard to archive with now much pressure those mons bring, basically forcing KOs against offensive mons every turn or 2HKO most walls.Using a terrible example like this doesn't strengthen your argument, just for the record. The problem with Quick Claw is it enables slow, powerful pokemon to circumvent their biggest flaw which is put in place to balance them, through pure RNG. It activating at inopportune times for the opponent just robs them of agency, as instead of an offensive pokemon threatening to revenge kill a weakened breaker (for example, Iron Valiant threatening a weakened Ursaluna), the RNG can just decide to allow them to go first and invalidate that counterplay.
maybe if you don't want to get clowned on you should have less clownonable opinions. quick claw is a non-issue, screens bulky offense is just bullshit strong right nowah yes, once again, a very honest post
use icicle spear over crash, it's funnier to get 5 crits in a rowTo be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)
So I've been testing out this set:
(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush
The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.
Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.
I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)
So I've been testing out this set:
(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush
The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.
Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.
Crits also bypass screens but not the proto defense boosts so I would say that they are on a neutral spot towards the meta rn. Crits are strong but outside of the shifus there are not optimal guarranted crit mons even with razor claw.I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.
I really don't see this as an issue. Crits are only x1.5 damage and you're not even playing with RNG when the procs are guaranteed. Seems like you'd only run this to break past walls trying to Iron Press you or, like you said, spam Draco.To be honest though (Razer Claw + Focus Energy) can be a problem see here:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895375101-bperc1cpt6pn9cfar2ur87rlx0nsw40pw (Look at turns 17-22)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1895288123-vfd2swzbtvynr6iy76jd8dgvzfjvqm3pw (Test game)
So I've been testing out this set:
(Baxcalibur) @ Razor Claw
Ability: Thermal Exchange
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Focus Energy
- Icicle Crash
- Glaive Rush
The 1st replay is a decent example towards the end how I was able to fish for 3 crits in a row with ease. The 2nd replay was a test with 1LDK where I just wanted to show that Razor Claw + Focus Energy will crit every single time. For example if you use Hydreigon and go with Razor Claw + Focus Energy you can spam Draco Meteor without negatively feeling the consequences of your special attack being dropped because crits will break through the drop. The saving grace is Focus Energy is not easy to setup but with screens I can see it being a bit more simpler.
Does this need to get banned? probably not unless it starts becoming a problem because slotting in Razor Claw (in the item slot) + setting up Focus Energy isn't the easiest and most efficient thing in the world to do, Critical Hits are super situational in comparison to setting up a Dragon Dance / Swords Dance for example. I think it's beneficial breaking through Will-O-Wisp / attack drops any defense boosts from the opposing mons, but outside of that I can see it being niche.
The closer you are to 50% the more random it is. Not that that's the only consideration.That's not true? If something previously had a 50% chance of proccing and not it's 100%, that's less randomness. Serene grace makes side effects more consistent, actually.
Did anyone actually make that argument about Serene Grace? Nothing has changed about the ability or the item. The problem with Quick Claw is NOT just that it introduces RNG. The problem is that it has a random chance to reward suboptimal play and there is no consistent counterplay. Fishing for a 60% flinch is a totally reasonable strategy. Fishing for a 20% claw activation is a BAD play. I'm still undecided on my opinion on this matter overall though.If "increase in pure RNG" is ban-worthy due to being uncompetitive, then Serene Grace also needs to go. Literally all it does is increase the RNG of the user's moves, it has no other function.
"But Serene Grace has been fine in OU for many generations," falls flat as a reason not to ban it, since Quick Claw was also not an issue in OU for many generations.
Ah ok that makes a lot of sense. It has nothing to do with a placebo effect but I agree with much of what you said.When it comes to sweepers, typically one of the arguments is you're pressured in teambuilder to run multiple answers to it. With volc this could be needing to run a check for each tera so when it breaks one check with one tera, the other check covers it. This sounds on paper like there was restraint in how you could teambuild as not doing so meant 6-0 by volc.
Turns out this teambuilder pressure was placebo because everyone is still running those same teams, without volcarona we're not seeing a decrease in teambuilder pressure, it just shifted to multiple other threats now that volc isn't an answer to them anymore and no adaptations have been reconized specifically for targetting volc, again volc was just kinda there being gas lit for 'having to run heatran' or some shit but heatran isn't dropping UU anytime soon even without it.
The only pressure there ever was, was current problems like gambit no longer need an anti-volc tera to shred the tier which basically means removing volc for an imaginary pressure on teambuilder shifted into actual real pressure for multiple threats instead.
I'm confused here. How were you "fishing for 3 crits" when you used Focus Energy? Were you using Boots over Razor Claw? Also crits don't ignore burn. It does have some niche application against Unaware users though, which are more relevant now than in prior gens.
yeah item clause ain't gonna do shit to make the meta better.God why dont we have an item clause?
Right, so it was regenerator that was propping up stall, but now its hazards keeping it down. What is it? Is stall good, or is it bad?
"For some reason"
Its an uncompetitive move that devalued physical attackers by merely existing. Scald could carry teams with a regen core and chansey/blissey solely because if the opposing threat was burned you could softboiled for days. This isnt some intimidate shit where yeah, landorus fuckin sucks to be against but its still quad weak to ice and weak to water, both great attacking types, or wo-chien whose ability to cut attack by iirc 33% is balanced by it having a really shitty defensive typing. Its just a very solid, spammable move with a high chance to burn and solid damage.
The only relevant guts mon in the meta wont take it well either, because burn or no burn, its in KO range from another mon.
Points are being repeated because it takes many strikes of a hammer to sink in a nail, which is why i have to say this again: Scald gives mons that would in every other instance switch out of threats a means to throw chip, a way to inflict status, and the ones that used it the most wouldnt mind staying in for a hit since they can just recover/regenerate it later. Its skillless, as opposed to your example of strong offensive threats, which require positioning and prior set up in order to maximize their potential. Cant just throw in a walking wake, or a dragonite. Shit needs screens and/or a dedicated Tera to pull off their main purpose. KO-ing shit.
And Tera Preview does not help with that. The only way to solve the various Garganacl Tera types is to solve them in the teambuilder.The one pragmatic defense I have to Tera (keep in mind I do want it restricted) is one of fear.
<snip because long post>
Knowing Garg's Tera type beforehand lets you pressure it easier offensively.