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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Ban this user from public interaction without a supervising adult
Dumb question. What's the "vr"?
My Stance Quick Claw:
Quick Claw is a pretty bad item unless you have godlike RNG, but on the occasion the RNGods above favor the Quick Claw item, games that shouldn't have been lost for someone are lost anyways, which is a bad feeling. While the metagame isn't necessarily oppressed by Quick Claw, I'd argue a ban would be a positive change anyways. The reason is that Quick Claw is entirely RNG based. Any competent competitive team would not carry a Quick Claw user, as it is heavily reliant on luck. The only reason to use the item is to cheese matchups. That's pretty much it. A ban on Quick Claw would not hurt the meta in any way, rather it would get rid of a method of cheese that is uncompetitive in nature. This is why I believe a ban on Quick Claw is warranted.
Quick Claw is a pretty bad item unless you have godlike RNG, but on the occasion the RNGods above favor the Quick Claw item, games that shouldn't have been lost for someone are lost anyways, which is a bad feeling. While the metagame isn't necessarily oppressed by Quick Claw, I'd argue a ban would be a positive change anyways. The reason is that Quick Claw is entirely RNG based. Any competent competitive team would not carry a Quick Claw user, as it is heavily reliant on luck. The only reason to use the item is to cheese matchups. That's pretty much it. A ban on Quick Claw would not hurt the meta in any way, rather it would get rid of a method of cheese that is uncompetitive in nature. This is why I believe a ban on Quick Claw is warranted.
Viability Ranking for OU.
Ban Razor Claw
Hi there, long time lurker here. To make this post not just 1 liner i have some opinion on that claw if it end up banned. I could see not long after quick claw [if] banned razor could be rising when some player try to compensate for claw ban, but probs its just me.
Saying "quick claw isn't as broken as evasion" isn't really saying much when evasion boosting moves/abilities/items are banned. And saying "it's no worse than secondary effect X" also isn't a meaningful argument when banning any sort of secondary effect carries huge follow-on ramifications (how many viable Electric attacks would be left if we banned moves that could cause paralysis?) while banning Quick Claw would result in... Quick Claw being unavailable.
Remember that banning the ability of a mon with one ability is basically banning that mon
The more you know
The more you know
Not again
Ban winning
Like the fate of poor Aloha-Sandslash in the lower tiers last gen... Caught between a Snow Cloak and Slush Rush ban.
Same with gen 4 Dugtrio
He was too based with Sand Veil and Arena Trap
Gen 4 Garchomp.
Possibly the only PUBL (by technicality) ever.
No, it isnt. You are only banning the ability. Not the mon. Now, if you were to ban the ability on the mon, it would be complex.
Like banning Supreme Overlord. If you just ban the ability SO, due to how it enables its abusers to greatly fuck shit up, worded better of course, it would ban the ability. It would NOT ban the pokemon who have that ability.
But if a Pokémon only has access to Supreme Overlord, they would get banned by technicalities.
I agree with that definition, but I disagree with the conclusion that the game was taken out of their hands. I mean, on an individual game basis, obviously yeah, but handling RNG overall and chances for different events to happen is part of the skillset of playing pokemon, right? The same way a poker player can't guarantee winning every single hand in existence but can generally win vs lesser players.
I don't think it's a stretch to say that many many many many games are decided by shadow ball drops, moonblast drops, freezes, etc, for pretty much as long as pokemon has existed. Heck, Kyurem's ban last gen even mentions the random stray freezes eventually catching Clef or w/e. so, in that regard, quick claw is just one extra factor to consider among many others that already exist, imo.
Now of course banning moonblast or thunderbolt or w/e has huge ramifications, banning quick claw doesn't, so on that basis I wouldn't particularly care/oppose a ban, but I can't see much value to it either. fundamentally it is imo not different if you lose a game to a bullshit item or to a bullshit proc.
that'd be like banning cannon rushes in sc2. Is it cheesy af? yeah. would anything of real value be lost by banning that? not much really. but on the other hand, is there much of value to be gained by banning it? not really either.... remember that ideally you want as little bans as possible, and while i don't disagree there's basically almost no downside to banning it, i also don't think it warrants making an exception for it either.
if it becomes an actual dominant strategy then sure why not, it gives grounds for an exception to be made. but until then, let cheese be cheese, people will always find a way to cheese one way or another anyway, have a chuckle if it happens and move on to the next game imo
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You know, after reading a few posts about how people hate Kingambit and evolite Bisharp being a thing, I realized something that could either be a meme or greatness. As someone else stated, Bisharp prior to its evo was already OU/UU material depending on the gen. But ironic enough, Gambit's Power increase came at the cost of Speed... and Bisharp is faster.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 78-93 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO
This is no HP/Def investment bisharp with eviolite. Now lets look at Bisharp.
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
No matter what you do, Gambit can't out speed without a Scarf
252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 400-472 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bishop to E1
Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure/Defiant
Tera: Whatever Gambit likes to do
40 HP/252 Atk/212 Speed
Iron Head
Sucker Punch
Brick Break/ Low Kick
SD/ Thunder Wave/ Taunt
I ripped the spread from the common UU spread and it can prob be better optimized. But basically, Bisharp is ironically a mon that resists both Gambit's STABs while also being able to punish it back. But what if Gambit Tera's? Well funny enough, there is no Tera Gambit can run that the combo of Dark, Steel, Fighting can't hit for neutral damage.
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As for viability outside of gambit, lets look at what it can do. You could basically just run a pseudo gambit with SD and Defiant, but what's the point in that if you could just run Gambit? Well Bisharps other qualities gained from eviolite I think are more interesting. Pressure in a meta game of far and few between recovery moves with decent PP mean Bisharp can also be used to stall out said moves, as well as opposing sucker punches.
If you strictly want KO's, Low Kick can hit lots of nasty mons like Garg and Gambit for more damage, but Brick Break in a meta where screens is more and more prevalent would be my opt in. Rather than use Bisharp as it was in the past for offensive pressure, it can instead act as a wall breaker or utility cleaner, picking off weakened foes with Sucker Punch, while also threating Thunder wave, Taunt, or SR.
I should also address the fact that Gambit can also run brick break or low kick to counter this of course, but that in itself is helpful. Gambit does run Low Kick on some sets, but at the cost of something else equally as valuable. Since Gambt would never give up Sucker Punch, that means to slot in low kick would mean leaving behind Kowtow Cleave (which it wants for Sucker Punch mind games), Iron head, or SD.
I'm not saying this will be the next best thing or anything, but I think it's ironic that a potential check to a King is a Bishop, which it evolves from.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Bisharp: 78-93 (28.7 - 34.3%) -- 2.6% chance to 3HKO
This is no HP/Def investment bisharp with eviolite. Now lets look at Bisharp.
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Bisharp Brick Break vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 300-356 (87.9 - 104.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes
No matter what you do, Gambit can't out speed without a Scarf
252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 400-472 (117.3 - 138.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Bishop to E1
Bisharp @ Eviolite
Ability: Pressure/Defiant
Tera: Whatever Gambit likes to do
40 HP/252 Atk/212 Speed
Iron Head
Sucker Punch
Brick Break/ Low Kick
SD/ Thunder Wave/ Taunt
I ripped the spread from the common UU spread and it can prob be better optimized. But basically, Bisharp is ironically a mon that resists both Gambit's STABs while also being able to punish it back. But what if Gambit Tera's? Well funny enough, there is no Tera Gambit can run that the combo of Dark, Steel, Fighting can't hit for neutral damage.
252+ Atk Bisharp Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 118-141 (34.6 - 41.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
As for viability outside of gambit, lets look at what it can do. You could basically just run a pseudo gambit with SD and Defiant, but what's the point in that if you could just run Gambit? Well Bisharps other qualities gained from eviolite I think are more interesting. Pressure in a meta game of far and few between recovery moves with decent PP mean Bisharp can also be used to stall out said moves, as well as opposing sucker punches.
If you strictly want KO's, Low Kick can hit lots of nasty mons like Garg and Gambit for more damage, but Brick Break in a meta where screens is more and more prevalent would be my opt in. Rather than use Bisharp as it was in the past for offensive pressure, it can instead act as a wall breaker or utility cleaner, picking off weakened foes with Sucker Punch, while also threating Thunder wave, Taunt, or SR.
I should also address the fact that Gambit can also run brick break or low kick to counter this of course, but that in itself is helpful. Gambit does run Low Kick on some sets, but at the cost of something else equally as valuable. Since Gambt would never give up Sucker Punch, that means to slot in low kick would mean leaving behind Kowtow Cleave (which it wants for Sucker Punch mind games), Iron head, or SD.
I'm not saying this will be the next best thing or anything, but I think it's ironic that a potential check to a King is a Bishop, which it evolves from.
This is true, but assuming this is about the Flame Body/Static RNG discussion, nothing is stuck with only those abilities (except Spiky eared Pichu, lmao)
Not gonna comment on that discussion, I'm pretty neutral on it. I won't ever complain about RNG gimmicks being removed but it's not a priority in my mind,
garchomp would still be banworthy in gen 4 even if it did have another ability
Even Slow Start?
But
I do like this idea. Itd be cooler if Tsareena was any good vs it, or in general since itd be the queen vs the king. Queenly Majesty and all that for no sucker punches.
Give me 24 hours.
The real play is to pair this with Kingambit and use it to weaken Kingambit's checks, particularly Great Tusk, you can easily invest to outspeed whatever bulky Tusk runs and deal a good chunk with +2 Iron Head, maybe don't even bother with Eviolite and run LO or Iron Plate to smack it even harder:
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 216-255 (49.7 - 58.7%) -- 69.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Iron Plate Bisharp Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 199-235 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 3.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And if you want to go all-in, you can always run the forbidden tech:
16 SpA Meadow Plate Bisharp Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 232-274 (53.4 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It does really suck that it lost Psycho Cut, since that would really help lurre Great Tusk with the SD set, and Sucker Punch / Low Kick / Psycho Cut is actually pretty good coverage lol (but also, GK does more than Psycho Cut to fully phys def tusk anyway so lol)
also check out this juicy calc against bulky gambit:
252+ Atk Bisharp Low Kick (100 BP) vs. 236 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 400-472 (100 - 118%) -- guaranteed OHKO
and if you want that OHKO and Eviolite and to outspeed 0 Speed Kingambit AND the GK 2HKO on Tusk, you can run 248 Atk / 120 SpA / 140 Spe Naughty which lets you do this:
120 SpA Bisharp Grass Knot (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Great Tusk: 226-266 (52 - 61.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers
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At the end of the day, quick claw is in the same category as things like King's Rock or Bright Powder. It's pure RNG without any other utility that would make it a valuable addition to the meta. It doesn't really deserve discussion the way Kingambit, Volc, or Zama do/did because they have both positive and negative effects on OU.
i totally agree that risk management is a core part of the game - the difference to me between the likes of thunderbolt/ice beam/flamethrower & quick claw/king’s rock/evasion is that there are buffers available for the former, often in the form of midgrounds, that mitigate their impact.
for example, although it was less than ideal, clefable/pex/ferrothorn/etc. taking a random thunderbolt paralysis is a tough situation, but most of the time, it’s not game-ending scenario. a player has recourse in these instances.
when it comes to the likes of king’s rock & quick claw, though, it is more often than not the end of the game should the user get lucky - and even if it’s not, they still got a totally free kill & kept their boosted sweeper, & the same scenario has to play out once more.
basically, with stuff like quick claw, the risk management aspect is reduced to praying on one (or two at best) turn(s) that you don’t lose on the spot to something outside the control of both players - that is to say, it is a fake sort of risk management. i don’t think the same can be said for moves with secondary effects.
also, there are zero negative consequences in banning quick claw. it is purely beneficial from the standpoint of promoting competition.
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