I think it works fine because you get to see their strong pokemon have extra aesthetic things and go 'wow neat'IMHO this only works in non-game stories or if the non-ace Pokémon are also good team members and not fodders to take care off quickly, because if the players can snowball with a mechanic, they can and will do it, running risk of losing their own immersion since they were never explicitly told of an old tradition that the Gym Leaders and the likes send their trump card last.
That said, being games for kids isn’t a valid excuse for excruciatingly easy difficulty, because a game aimed for children can still educate them in a way of putting various challenges by putting decent synergy of Abilities, moveset and their types from the opponents’ part, encouraging them to put a good synergy to their team as well. Nothing stops them from using the mechanic earlier, at risk of losing them against the boss’ last Pokémon.
It doesn’t need to be 1-to-1 to competitive movesets, moreso a subtle “puzzle” and a theme, beyond just monotype for sake of doing it, where using just super effective moves isn’t going to help you as the boss put in hazards or other field-changing effects like Tailwind. Having more than one token Double Battle would also help a lot to make the kids more familiar with how VGC works, as that format uses Doubles with small but important difference in “bring six, pick four” rule.
This.I dunno I think shoving out their best Pokemon the millisecond they can is kind of....dumb?
Like oh okay I guess the finale of this battle will be your weaker Pokemon. Great.
It just makes sense from a gamefreel perspective to put the best for last.
That would be the best option for a lot of reasons.I still think Glimmora being send first and Tera anyways would have been an interesting twist fpr Geeta, even if just to shake things up a bit.
This.
Some times, Rom hacking gives a perspective that people wouldn't have otherwise. I had Milo be able to D-Max both Flapple/Appletun and Eldegoss in his Gym Battle when I was modding SwSh.
Sure enough, he sent out Flapple second-to-last because it was the best matchup available against whatever I had out at the time... And then out came Eldegoss after a D-Max Flapple. It looked as bad as you'd expect.
The real problem is the Super Mechanics, they raise the stakes in a way that it's just not the same once the big threat is gone. Even in Showdown, when the opponent's Tera/Mega is down, the battle's tension dissipates a lot. It doesn't matter if there are other threatening mons around, because things are more straightforward without that ace in the wings.
The best workaround is to strengthen the rest of the team in battles like these.
For example, Kabu throwing out Wisps like candy is good because it disrupts sweeps. Wattson is also a great example of how to not let a single mon roflstomp everything.
The AI being able to switch would also be good, but... At least pivoting moves allow them to do it if I must.
That would be the best option for a lot of reasons.
Using the example of Cynthia's Garchomp, if the AI could switch, it'd be fine.Honestly even without super mechanics and with generally stronger teams, it still feels slightly deflating.
We'll put aside rando rival battles or mid game gyms or lolBugsy. Those are too easy to peck away at. How about Cynthia? I think we can all agree that she's a pretty solid team. High level, decent moves, and an eclectic but generally strong team. & there's no super mechanic, of course.
Garchomp still stands above the rest of it, and will often be the problem with you due to it being higher leveled and very strong. You need an answer to it. if it comes out early, which I believe in both DP & BDSP it can (I have recollections of facing Roserade & Milotic last on various runs), then...well beating it has probably wrapped up the rest of the battle. You beat her strongest Pokemon, you probably have annoying-but-manageable threats remaining. If you wound up burning through resources to handle it..but also the inverse situation of it being saved for last means you probably would have had less resources available and possibly a team that was more roughed up.
Obviously there's going to be a lot of variance based on your specific team and the CPU's specific team and what you did/did not prioritize and maybe if you even had items to begin with (haha who would forget to buy full restores before fighting the league thats crazy haha anyway) and even some random luck. But on the whole the ace being sent out early is probably not going to make the battle harder...so just saving it for last, trying to bank on the player getting a little roughed up (if they care about that) and adding extra pizzazz where possible (more distinct dialog, the super mechanic, a song change, etc) seems fine.
And if you did happen to have an lolEZGG answer to it, well, it's going to be deflating either way.
Wait, toothless aces? Could you give me some most blatant examples?Using the example of Cynthia's Garchomp, if the AI could switch, it'd be fine.
Garchomp coming in early and punching holes through the player's team can be fine because even if it goes down, you might lose your answer to other significant threats like Lucario. The role is changed, but it still works.
Super mechanics just amplify the role of aces to the point they often eclipse the rest of the team. Which isn't a problem by itself, unless the rest is just a bunch of setup fodder.
Currently, we're getting the worst scenario.
Most major battles consist of absolute mooks, an exploitable super mechanic, toothless aces, bad AI, poor movesets, and little to no strategic value whatsoever.
I'm not advocating for the kind of "difficulty" rom hacks usually implement, but the design philosophy of these games has been clearly getting worse in a lot of areas.
Especially with internet/fan communities I feel like this is something that happens, where higher positioned people want some big event/overhaul to attach their name to, even as a lateral move, just to ensure they stay connected to something people will always be talking about.It reeks of "some higher up either just came into power or has recently acquired way too much free time and is going to screw things up for the real users like what always happens when higher ups make arbitrary changes for no good reason."
I've advocated this a lot before: Kingambit is a much more thematically fitting Ace for Geeta than Glimmora, irrespective of the in-battle roles the two mons have among competitive Singles. The Gym Leaders as well as some interactions like Penny's strong-armed "hiring" by the League all have a consistent theme that Geeta is an unpopular and very demanding boss, even if not strictly incompetent. Kingambit's flavor is very in-line with Geeta, being someone who's in a position of power seemingly more because she's strong than particularly intelligent or capable (Geeta is #1 Champ but also runs the League, Kingambit is the strongest of Bisharp packs but also an incompetent strategist that just overwhelms opponents). Even taking Supreme Overlord out of the equation, there's a synergy there. Not to mention Geeta's whole "incapable of holding back" talk would make more sense ending on a mon that just steamrolls its opponents with no finesse, and Kingambit's a big and imposing 3rd stage (cross gen or not) so it's plenty suited for the role aesthetically.I don't think the ai needs to switch a lot/break from the order that much. the teams just need to be better imo. I think switching between the non-aces is fine, and ideally youd have some counters to certain strategies before going in with your ace for highest impact and a boss like challenge after you roughed up the player.
i think glimmora on first kingambit as an ace as many people say is a bit too competitive brained and also kinda lame? geeta has a lot of connections to glim and its not even a bad pokemon lol it hits like a truck. her issue would just be the other pokemon which dont scale up well. put kingambit on fourth, thats enough to be a stopgap without feeling excessive and give glimm a better tera, thats all you have to do for these two
Honestly, the most blatant thing with Geeta and a lot of these battles is the lack of any kind of strategy.I don't think the ai needs to switch a lot/break from the order that much. the teams just need to be better imo. I think switching between the non-aces is fine, and ideally youd have some counters to certain strategies before going in with your ace for highest impact and a boss like challenge after you roughed up the player.
i think glimmora on first kingambit as an ace as many people say is a bit too competitive brained and also kinda lame? geeta has a lot of connections to glim and its not even a bad pokemon lol it hits like a truck. her issue would just be the other pokemon which dont scale up well. put kingambit on fourth, thats enough to be a stopgap without feeling excessive and give glimm a better tera, thats all you have to do for these two
Wait, toothless aces? Could you give me some most blatant examples?
To be fair to Raihan, his issue is being saddled with Duraludon in the first place. Even Archaludon, an evolution made as an "attempt 2" only has like 3 Special moves by level up and one is its signature move. Maybe if Gamefreak had less of a chip about giving mons TM moves or rubbed 2 brain cells together when making Duraludon people wouldn't have such easy mockery of a big wig (the problem here is the mon and not simply one instance of it).Honestly, the most blatant thing with Geeta and a lot of these battles is the lack of any kind of strategy.
She uses Veluza and Gogoat. She won't be hard. Ever. But not doing the bare minimum to be competent is even worse.
Glimmora as a lead and Kingambit as the last mon fix a LOT of her issues strategy-wise as it instantly becomes a more memorable battle since you have to actually think about how to tackle it, even with her sticking to Tera Glimmora.
Good battles in Pokémon don't need to be necessarily difficult. They need to be memorable and have strategic value.
Tate and Liza did it in Emerald with a box of scraps. There's no excuse.
I'll try to restrain myself a bit, but there are seriously too many examples.
SV
Larry has a Staraptor with 2 (two) moves. In Gym 5. Normal/Flying isn't even a hard combination to resist.
Grusha has an Altaria as an ace. It immediately Terastallizes into the worst defensive type in the game. Dismal.
SwSh
Opal has a gimmick battle where you can get stat boosts for free and her ace is an Alcremie whose strongest move is Draining Kiss. At Lv. 38. No, Dynamax does not fix this.
Also, shoutouts to Raihan and his physical Duraludon. This is why you can't beat Leon, dummy!
XY
The whole game is known for most of its leaders not even having a full moveset. I rest my case. Korrina doesn't even use her Lucario in her Gym battle.
XY
The whole game is known for most of its leaders not even having a full moveset. I rest my case. Korrina doesn't even use her Lucario in her Gym battle.
Larry uses Normal Tera on his Gym battle. His E4 Tera is Flying Flamigo.Larry I'll give the 2 move thing stinks but Flying at least gets over the usual Fighting concerns, and for stat check purposes, Larry is the only main-game Leader that uses Same-Type Tera damage, which fittingly is boring but practical
I'm pretty sure the AI won't pick Hyper Voice because both Discharge and Hex have more base power than it after Tera, but either way, it's mitigated by the spread damage penalty.Ryme's Toxitricity is more about being on theme but at least has moves suited to a Double Battle with Punk Rock Hyper Voice and Discharge for Status/Hex synergy.
I mixed points a bit but I was referring to the Normal Same-Type Tera since Staraptor is Normal/Flying.Larry uses Normal Tera on his Gym battle. His E4 Tera is Flying Flamigo.
Yeah, but that makes it vulnerable to Fighting, so it's objectively worse in context.I mixed points a bit but I was referring to the Normal Same-Type Tera since Staraptor is Normal/Flying.
My experience has shown me that Cynthia can send Garchomp out early in DP but not in BDSP.How about Cynthia? I think we can all agree that she's a pretty solid team. High level, decent moves, and an eclectic but generally strong team. & there's no super mechanic, of course.
Garchomp still stands above the rest of it, and will often be the problem with you due to it being higher leveled and very strong. You need an answer to it. if it comes out early, which I believe in both DP & BDSP it can (I have recollections of facing Roserade & Milotic last on various runs), then...well beating it has probably wrapped up the rest of the battle.
See, this I actually disagree with from top to bottom.I dunno I think shoving out their best Pokemon the millisecond they can is kind of....dumb?
Like oh okay I guess the finale of this battle will be your weaker Pokemon. Great.
It just makes sense from a gamefreel perspective to put the best for last.
I wonder if its because TPC is very protective of the brand, and was perhaps were concerned about how Ultra Necrozma may be percieved as a " villian "? Sakurai has mentioned that he almost didn't get Pokemon characters in Smash 64 because TPC was conerned about things like seeing Pikachu holding a gun or hotting a Mario. Its a miracle we have 9 Pokemon characters in Smash.
>Calls its campaign "World of Light"
>Ultra Necrozma is not a boss
Still seething about this six years later
I'm guessing it's more because they did not actually care about being thematic & they didn't want that many bosses.I wonder if its because TPC is very protective of the brand, and was perhaps were concerned about how Ultra Necrozma may be percieved as a " villian "? Sakurai has mentioned that he almost didn't get Pokemon characters in Smash 64 because TPC was conerned about things like seeing Pikachu holding a gun or hotting a Mario. Its a miracle we have 9 Pokemon characters in Smash.
I seem to remember the other bosses show up occasionally in Classic mode as well, and it would probably be weird to have a pokemon boss that didn't show up in any pokemon character routes while the routes themselves (or at least Incineroar's the gen 7 rep) aren't themed around fighting legendaries.I'm guessing it's more because they did not actually care about being thematic & they didn't want that many bosses.
So in addition to the 2 new OCs & the Hands as minibosses (who they're already using for Classic mode) you had 2 returning smash originals (one of which got to reuse assets), 2 third party bosses and then 2 Nintendo bosses (one of which ALSO got to reuse assets)
Marx is really the only one who could have gotten the boot, but regardless of what lead to him being chosen honestly I think they probably just didn't think about having a Pokemon boss like they did with SSE.
To be fair, if there was a Pokemon boss they probably would have had at least one route actually based around fighting said boss regardless of who it was.I seem to remember the other bosses show up occasionally in Classic mode as well, and it would probably be weird to have a pokemon boss that didn't show up in any pokemon character routes while the routes themselves (or at least Incineroar's the gen 7 rep) aren't themed around fighting legendaries.
Even if Marx was replaced it also probably wouldn't have been with Ultra Necrozma, since Marx fills a dark-aligned slot in the campaign if I remember right.
It wouldn't be a World of Light because Necrozma would eat it all. Would essentially skip to section 2 with the Dark World.
>Calls its campaign "World of Light"
>Ultra Necrozma is not a boss
Still seething about this six years later