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Looks like even if it gets the Trick Room off (it shouldn't if you run a Fake Out/Taunt Partner like Sableye or Weavile) you'll 99% KO it before it can retaliate. Unless you seriously low roll both times, you have a minimum 99% damage done. Not too bad for one of the bulkier Psychics in the Meta.
It also got Nasty Plot from the same event. I was wondering...would Deo-D become a reliable setup sweeper with a combo of Dark Pulse/NP/Psychic/Agility? Let's look.
252SpAtk +2 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 68% - 81% (292 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
Looks promising. After 1 NP, Deo-D can 2HKO Reuniclus.
And for lolz?
252SpAtk +6 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Levitate Cresselia (+SpDef): 68% - 81% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
FUCK YOU CRESS!
Honestly, I could see running Deo-D as a late-game sweeper now that NP and Dark Pulse have been released. This is mostly Theorymonning at the moment, but I do plan on testing it on the ladder a bit, and maybe some more after OMPL is over.
Sweeper Deoxys-D is essentially outclassed by Mew. Mew has much better SpA and better Speed, which more than undermines Deo-D's slightly superior bulk; Mew can also allocate EVs in HP to be bulkier, faster, and stronger than Deo-D that doesn't invest in bulk. Deo-D has ExtremeSpeed, but that isn't going to hurt with base 70 Attack and no Atk EVs, and Mew does have Sucker Punch if you really want priority + a superior offensive movepool with great moves like Flamethrower and Aura Sphere (fuck Superpower; this gets a NP boost and doesn't leave you prone to being OHKoed by Tar with Def drops). Deo-D does has Psycho Boost, but that is counterproductive with Nasty Plot.
And for clarification, I am not saying that Mew is a good NP sweeper in Doubles; I have never seen or used a sweeper Mew or Deo-D, so I wouldn't be able to make that claim. It would catch people by surprise though, and be harder to deal with than sweeper Deo-D.
I played a lot of Doubles, and I noticed a few things.
- Ferrothorn is a huge wall. It takes everything you throw at it and annoys back with Leech Seed, T-Wave, Protect and something else, usually Power Whip. It is even more of a wall in the Rain, where it's fire weakness is lessened. It is also immune to Toxic, making things more difficult.
- Cresselia is a huge wall as well. Takes everything. Not as much as Ferrothorn, but still a pain in the arse to take down. Toxic and Pursuit/Crunch users from powerful attackers like TTar work against most builds of Cress though.
- Dusclops is annoying with bulk and Eviolite. Damn bulky (BAN ME PLEASE). Will-O-Wisp only makes things worse.
- Blissey/Chansey are too, but they are vulnerable to Toxic as well as Close Combat in most builds.
On a less serious note, I've been using Entrainment & Helping Hand Chlorophyll Leavanny in the sun because Leavanny is one of my favorite Pokémon and wanted to see if I could do anything useful with it. Passing Chlorophyll to Lati@s/Heatran/whatever turns that into a monstrous threat as long as that is something offensive, and can be incredibly devastating if you can get it right. Helping Hand at the right moment only makes your Chlorophyll monster even more dangerous.
On a less serious note, I've been using Entrainment & Helping Hand Chlorophyll Leavanny in the sun because Leavanny is one of my favorite Pokémon and wanted to see if I could do anything useful with it. Passing Chlorophyll to Lati@s/Heatran/whatever turns that into a monstrous threat as long as that is something offensive, and can be incredibly devastating if you can get it right. Helping Hand at the right moment only makes your Chlorophyll monster even more dangerous.
Seriously though, Entrainment ChloroSweepers could be fun, as could Entrainment on any type of Speed Boosting Weather ability.
Lilligant could be another ChloroEntrainer on the Special spectrum of things, and Durant gets Truant Entrainment with a base 109 speed, which could make many Stallish Pokemon like Blissey, Gliscor, Shuckle and especially Cresselia into sitting ducks every other turn, literaaly in Cress' case, as it loses Levitate. :P
The problem with Entrainment is that switching out negates it (well you force a switch and that's good), also your Pokémon will still have Entrainment and be useless (so you have to switch it out). Also Heat Wave is too common for Durant to survive a lot :< I like Entrainment ChloroSweep, though, it makes "slow" mons much faster.
The problem with Entrainment is that switching out negates it (well you force a switch and that's good), also your Pokémon will still have Entrainment and be useless (so you have to switch it out). Also Heat Wave is too common for Durant to survive a lot :< I like Entrainment ChloroSweep, though, since speed is checked for every move, both your mons would run first.
I was mistaken, I edited my post, I don't know why I thought that, I blame the late hour (for me) :P Probably something like lagging tail or other gimmicks or weird EVs confused me in a match. Anyways thanks to this we're going to investigate some speed things like switching-in Sand Rush Excadrill and the likes, because it's not very clear, lol.
We actually discussed this early on in the thread. Speed is checked at the end of the turn, each turn. Try using a Tailwind team with Prankster Tailwind and a slow attacker partner.
Specially Defensive Vaporeon seems to wall a good majority of the Metagame, bar Ferrothorn, Thundy, Specs Jolteon, and.... Not much else really. It's so bulky, and with access to Acid Armor, HydraRest, Scald and Toxic, you can pair it next to Ferrothorn on a RainStall team and wall just about anything currently in wide use.
Just to show you how strong this fucking thing is...
I've been testing out the WolfeTran with Sunny Day Support Cress. It was doing very well actually, but then it came down to me versus this bastard Vaporeon with max Special Defense. Even in the Sun with Helping Hand, I had no way of breaking it.
Heat Wave: 21.38 - 25.26%
Earth Power: 22.89 - 26.99%
76+ SpA Heatran Helping Hand Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 106-125 (22.89 - 26.99%) -- possible 5HKO
POSSIBLE 5HKO
Jesus Christ Vaporeon.
And in Doubles, the vast majority of attackers are Specially based due to Spread Damage.
Meant to post this earlier but my internet was acting up and then I forgot to do so, but better late then never I suppose. Vaporeon definitely doesn't wall the majority of the metagame. Plenty of notable threats have no problem beating Vaporeon, especially if it's out of rain (Kyurem-B, Skymin, Ludicolo, Latios and Victini to name a few) so how it walls the majority of the metagame is beyond me. Although it can take some special hits, it is wide open to being beaten by physical attackers. Also, the part about Rain Stall isn't too relevant in Doubles since stall isn't nearly as viable as in Singles.
Another thing is that you make the assertion that the metagame is mostly specially based, which isn't true. While there are many special attackers, there are also many powerful physical attackers in the tier too (Kyurem-B, Scizor, Excadrill, Victini, Hitmontop, Tornadus, etc.) so saying that by being specially defensive, you beat the majority of the meta isn't true either. Also, using something like Heatran, a mon whose main STAB is resisted by Vaporeon, to show Vaporeon's power isn't a very convincing argument (especially when your Heatran isn't max Sp.Atk) so you should try to use more relevant calcs when building an argument.
Intimidate is rampant in Doubles. It's what makes Defiant Tornadus-I viable. There is no Specially Based equivalent apart from Snarl, which is rare.
Basically, there is no way, other than Snarl or self-inflicted drops (Psycho Boost-style) to drop Special Attack, making it the more viable attacking style.
The idea that one ability someone makes an entire attacking spectrum unviable is silly. Plenty of notable Pokemon in the metagame are physically based (Scizor, Excadrill, Kyurem-B, etc.) and they all succeed despite the presence of Intimidate in the tier. Also, there are more sensible ways to assess which spectrum is more viable than whether there's an ability that drops that stat or not. In fact, looking at the usage stats for the tier, the list of Pokemon that would be "OU" in this metagame contains plenty of both physically based and specially based, with neither being overrepresented enough to suggest a bias towards one side of the spectrum in this tier, so that statement is pretty offbase.
With so much weather spam running around, I'd say we are fefinitely more Specially-Based than physically. After all, no one runs Physical Kingdra, and hardly anyone uses strong physical attackers, barring of course Scizor/Lando/Kyub, one of whom is used as a Defensive Intimdate Pivot almost as much as its Physical set.
I'm not trying to say we have a one-sided attacking spectrum here, more saying that the game is biased toward Special Attacks more than Physical, thus making that Specially Defensive Vaporeon a menace.
With so much weather spam running around, I'd say we are fefinitely more Specially-Based than physically. After all, no one runs Physical Kingdra, and hardly anyone uses strong physical attackers, barring of course Scizor/Lando/Kyub, one of whom is used as a Defensive Intimdate Pivot almost as much as its Physical set.
I'm not trying to say we have a one-sided attacking spectrum here, more saying that the game is biased toward Special Attacks more than Physical, thus making that Specially Defensive Vaporeon a menace.
What? Hitmontop, Toxicroak, Arcanine, Victini, Terrakion, Blaziken, Excadrill, Tyranitar, Conkeldurr, Garchomp, and Salamence all see enough use to at least take note of. I don't think "hardly anyone" uses strong physical hitters--that's why intimidate is good in this meta.
Fighting and dragon are basically the best offensive typings you can get and are almost exclusively physical...
You also need two intimidaters consistently healthy throughout the match to get half the effect of using reflect in singles.
Intimidate is definitely useful, but it hasn't made it so that you shouldn't use physical attackers. In fact, eliminating the opponent's intimidate user can sometimes lead them to be totally out of luck against powerhouses like Kyurem-B.
There is an effective combo I would like to share with you doubles players, that I like to call the "Discharge Duo" because it's is exactly what it is and sounds incredibly cool :>
Anyway, the way this works is that you have 2 electric types using the move Discharge, of course doing STAB base 80 damage to both opposing pokemon and with a nifty 51 percent paralysis chance (if both of them use discharge that turn). Now, you can't just use any other electric type pokemon, as damaging yourself / pralysing yourself won't help you much, so you should use 2 electric types that have the ability Volt Abosrb orLightningrod or one of each. How I like to use it is a Life Orbed Thundurus-T and a Sashed Manectric. This way, Thundurus-T boosts Manectric whilst Manectric heals Thundurus-T's damage taken / recoil.
My version of the Disharge Duo~
Thundurus-T @ Life Orb
Trait: Volt Absorb
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Discharge
- Taunt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Protect
This is the Thundurus-T set I use. I once carried Focus Blast over Taunt, but I then found that bulky Trick Room setters caused the duo massive problems (as it is obviously reliant on high speeds). It is the "quick hard hitter", as it does more damage than Manectric at +1, and it obviously also helps boost up Manectric.
This is the other poke, Manectric. It is more of the poke that recieves boosts from T-T, while dealing with grass types the first turn, and then healing whilst damaging once boosted a couple times. Once it starts getting a few boosts, it is very hard to stop, especially since EQ won't kill it in one hit (sash).
This Discharge Duo can, if an easy set of leads are chosen by your opponent, simply plow through an entire team - a clean 6-0, and it happens way more often than one would think. I'd say about 1/5 matches I have on the ladder consist of leading with the Discharge Duo, and sweeping the entire opposing team. Of course, it does have counters, some bigger than others. Here is a list of counters that are popularly used in doubles:
Mamoswine: This is probably the best counter to the Discharge Duo, as it can live any 2 hits you want to throw at it (being immune to Dicharge, resistance to HP Ice and easily able to live a neutral Flamethrower from an unboosted Manectric. Not only this, but it also has a powerful Icicle Crash that not only kills T-T, but also breaks Manectric's sash in one turn. These make it the best counter to the Discharge Duo by far.
Yache Berry Garchomp: Obviously, non-Yache Berry Chomps are not a problem, as HP Ice outright KOs it, but with a Yache Berry, it can live a hit and throw a Rock Slide / EQ back at your face, obviously not helping either of your pokemon (doing a lot of damage to T-T and breaking Manectric's sash.
Tyranitar: This isn't as big a threat as the above, but it kinda puts a dead end to the Discharge Duo. This is because in sand, it has a buckload of Special Defense, and without Focus Blast on T-T (which i don't personally like to run), T-Tar can live a lot of Discharges. It also brings Sandstorm with it, which completely ruins the idea of using a Focus Sash in the first place :I not only this, but it can also hit back with a STAB rock slide, doing a lot of damage to both pokes.
Cresselia: Not really a counter, but it definately slows down the process badly... Not really a surprise that Cress is on this list, because it takes special hits so damn well any day. this is not the major problem though. the Biggest problem with cress is Icy Wind. The Discharge Duo heavily relies on being very fast (base 101 and 105), and Icy Wind brings it down to the point of being outsped by simple base 80s and 90s. The worst part is, everyone frickin uses Cresselia, so this is pokemon a really big problem for the Discharge Duo.
I understand that there are some other versions of this Discharge Duo, most notably T-T + Jolteon, as they constantly heal each other, and jolteon's amazing speed can come in hand with outspeeding, well, everything almost, but I personally like my own version better. The reason why, is because I have found Lightningrod + Volt Absorb to be better than 2 Volt Absorbs, as one heals and the other boosts rather than double clericing. But that is of course, up to the individual to decide. My thoughts of possible upcoming new versions of this are that Zapdos might be geting Lightningrod soon!! This will definately upgrade the Discharge Duo, as I think Zapdos + Jolteon is gonna be my new version when it comes out. The reason why not to use Jolteon + Manectric atm is because EQ is a popular move in doubles, and it fucks up that combo, but when Zapdos enters the electric immunity ranks (gets Lightningrod), I think Zapdos + Jolteon will wreck.
I think this is a very good method to discuss, maybe find other versions of it (possibly storm drain or flash fire) and I generally want to remind you that it exists, and that I think you should all at least try it out. Thanks for your time, now go wreck with some Discharges :^D
Fighting and dragon are basically the best offensive typings you can get and are almost exclusively physical...
You also need two intimidaters consistently healthy throughout the match to get half the effect of using reflect in singles.
Intimidate is definitely useful, but it hasn't made it so that you shouldn't use physical attackers. In fact, eliminating the opponent's intimidate user can sometimes lead them to be totally out of luck against powerhouses like Kyurem-B.
Thundurus-T and Zapdos can also be paired with a Ground-type user for the well-known DischargeQuake combo. If your team has both combos This gives you the option of pairing Thundurus-T with either another Discharge user or a Ground-type depending on what suits you best against your opponet. This gives you a couple of advantages over two Discharge users: EQ hits harder, gives you one move hitting Def and the other SpD (meaning purely specially based walls and Light Screen (and Dual screens for that matter) aren't as effective in stopping the strategy), and it gives you better type coverage.
Arguably the best Ground-type to pair with two Discharge users is Swampert. He has a strong match-up against Mamoswine and Tyranitar with STAB Waterfall, can 2HKO Yache Chomp with an Ice-type attack (and if your ally has HP Ice, you can KO Chomp on the first turn), and it even has Wide Guard to protect your ally from Icy Wind and Rock Slide. And if paired with Taunt Thundurus-T, you can potentially stop Cress from utilising all of its speed controlling options (Taunt against TR, Wide Guard against Icy Wind, and Thunder Wave won't affect either of your Pokemon). Keep in mind that you may have a harder time KOing Cress with a DischargeQuake combo than two Discharge users.
You can also use any grounded Discharge user with Air Balloon if you think you can stop the balloon from being popped, but that's risky due to the popularity of Fake Out and other priority moves and most Ground-types being slow.
DisQuake is a very strong combo, as is DualCharge, which is two Volt Absorb/Motor Drive/Lightningrod users paired off, like Thundurus-Therian, Jolteon, Manectric, Zapdos (in the future... We hope). My favorite is Specs Jolteon and Scarf Thundy-T, as they have high enough speed to spam discharges while healing each other in the process. You can run this combo with the Disquake combo as well so as to remove the Ground/Electric types that can wall this, with the Swampert mentioned by DarkMalice being a great partner, as is Gastrodon or even Quagsire. Just make sure someone has a fire move to dispatch grass types, or run a Rindo Berry.
I've been using this really trollish sableye set and it's working wonders :P
Careful (Leftovers)
252 HP/ 6 Def/ 252 SpD
-Will-o-wisp
-Confuse ray
-Recover
-Substitute/ Protect
I usually pair sableye with something that would like to take physical hits better. Sub or Protect both have their merits- sub is to block status since sableye would not like being paralyzed and I would often have times where the opponent has two pokemon confused so I can take advantage of it. Protect is better if you want to stall out moves or evade two or more moves directed towards you.
I usually use this thing mid-game and it can really turn the tide of battle. Scizor ruining your fun with its Bullet Punch and Bug Bite? Will-o-Wisp it.
Swift swimmers too fast? Confuse ray them before they can move.
anyway i tried deo-A tonight, but i can't really say anything about it since i didn't have many real battles. in the few good battles that i had, feint support was definitely useful. here's the (terrible) team i used:
i think you're missing the point of feint. i mean i might try feint weavile, but feint is incredibly useful for its +2 priority (to kill sash users or weakened pranksters before they can launch a +1 priority attack) and the fact that it breaks protect on the spot. if you taunt them to stop their protects they'll just switch out but with feint they won't have time to react. if you can get a feel for what will protect, deo-a is basically guaranteed a kill.
and i might try hp grass if i ever decide to use this team again. if i do pick it up again i'll probably redo the whole thing lol (especially swords dance chomp)
Am I missing something with Garchomp? It's #4 in usage, but I've honestly never been impressed by it. It has no reliable, powerful STAB. Outrage is unreliable, Earthquake is weak and unreliable, Dragon Claw is weak, Swords Dance is difficult to set up. I mean it doesn't seem like a bad Pokemon, great typing, Attack, and decent bulk, but I don't really get why I see it so much.
Am I missing something with Garchomp? It's #4 in usage, but I've honestly never been impressed by it. It has no reliable, powerful STAB. Outrage is unreliable, Earthquake is weak and unreliable, Dragon Claw is weak, Swords Dance is difficult to set up. I mean it doesn't seem like a bad Pokemon, great typing, Attack, and decent bulk, but I don't really get why I see it so much.
Am I missing something with Garchomp? It's #4 in usage, but I've honestly never been impressed by it. It has no reliable, powerful STAB. Outrage is unreliable, Earthquake is weak and unreliable, Dragon Claw is weak, Swords Dance is difficult to set up. I mean it doesn't seem like a bad Pokemon, great typing, Attack, and decent bulk, but I don't really get why I see it so much.
VGC players use Garchomp competitively, but they get to take advantage of his evasion ability (and even combine it with bright powder). Subbing can become game changing with the aid of evasion. We really outta remove the evasion clause from this meta, it's unnecessary since so many traditionally "broken" things can be managed with the strategies and dynamics of doubles.
Garchomp also has the niche of being the second fastest dragon, having immunity to thunder wave, rock resist, and bulkiness. But yeah, his STAB's base powers are weak, he's susceptible to intimidate, and Cresselia's with ice beam/icy wind can shit all over him.
To demonstrate how crummy 80 BP STAB can be, I wanted to try a swagger/lum strategy with Kyurem-B, but looking at damage calcs were disappointing. Even at +2 adamant, he still can't reliably OHKO 252hp Tyranitar / Srafty / Conk/ Victini, bulky Gastrodon / Jellicent / Togekiss / Amoonguss, (and probably some others I'm forgetting) with Dragon Claw. I guess 80 base power just truly borders on weak if even 170 base atk at +2 can't reliably one shot modestly bulky pokemon.
