General Doubles Metagame Thread

[youngjake93]

Well after you+fous punch is pretty much the same thing as helping hand hammer arm, but with worse distribution and less reliability.
If you want to hit faster then there are better forms of speed control like paralysis, tail wind, icy wind, and trick room

 

[Agonist]

http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-14655788

TheMantyke and I (he did most of the work) came up with a fun TR + Gravity team for doubles, and so far, it's worked surprisingly well.

 

[BlankZero]

LOL, excellent find, Lagalag4 :D

it's unfortunate that there aren't many fast users of After You, though. The closest thing I could find is Mew - Cinccino should be attacking, not supporting its partner, imo. There are plenty of TR After You users, though, so Conkeldurr may be able to spam super strong Iron Fist-boosted Focus Punch if paired with such mons xD

Today, I tested Eggy's new team - and I'm posting the replayhttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-14618555 here, since it does showcase some interesting stuff!

• First I want to point out that nyttyn was right about Sash Deoxys-A - it actually saved me the game here, surviving Chandelure's Heat Wave to kill Amoonguss with Psycho Boost. Focus Sash also saved Eggy, too, foiling my plans to prevent Chandelure's Trick Room by killing it off with Latios's Dragon Gem-boosted Draco Meteor.
• Effect Spore Amoonguss - I am not sure if most Doubles player prefer Effect Spore over Regenerator, but it has certainly trolled me in this game. That 30% chance to screw that Fake Out user is quite a bitch!
• Utility of Gyarados in Doubles - although Gastrodon totally rendered it useless offensively, Gyarados was still able to provide some crucial support in this game, thanks to Intimidate, Taunt, T-Wave, and overall decent bulk and typing.
• fucking Muddy Water - BAN!!! I was lucky that Eggy didn't set up Trick Room again when my Latios's move missed >_<

That's a really crazy match. Muddy Water is so trolltastic though, so it was a great match overall I think.

 

[BlankZero]

Hate Cress? Wanna see what will make you hate it more?

I present to you...

RestTalkCMCress!

*Warning: Replay Contains Strong Language*

Cresselia @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpAtk
Bold Nature
-Rest
-Sleep Talk
-Calm Mind
-Ice Beam

This guy is designed to be a Comeback Kid, not a midgame tank or sweeper. CM up as soon as your opponent's Bug/Dark/Ghost types are safely gone, and begin the wreckage. Toxic got you down? Rest clears status and with Sleep Talk, you can still get either more boosts off or fire off the not-often-resisted Ice Beam at +whatever. Then, once you awaken, either rest off the sustained sleeping damage, or boost, or fire off again! It's very trolly, but it really does work.

I know sometimes I post sets that don't seem to work 100% of the time, but this one works better than CM Moonlight Cress in the sun, as it can't be worn down with Toxic or Burn, which was the bane of CMCress.

It pairs well with a heavy offensive threat like Kyub or DeoA, as the opponent will focusfire at it instead, leaving Cress to slowly and silently become a Behemoth.

Threats to this set?

-Suckerpunch SD Bisharp
-CB Bug Bite/U-Turn Scizor
-Darkrai
-TTar
-Scarf Landorus carrying U-Turn

Hitmontop would be a fantastic partner to this set, killing off most of these threats, as well as Steel Types that resist Ice Beam. Cress can kill off any Flying types threatening Top, like Tornadus-I and Crobat (seeing quite a few of them lately.) You can also run Chandelure to take care of walls and Bulky Psychic Types, though Top would still be needed for the Dark Types.

 

[Audiosurfer]

My main qualm with that set Blankzero is that if I wanted to use a boosting Cress, why not use something like Chestorest? On your set you lack a STAB move (which is a pretty big problem for any sweeper), while a Chestorest set would have room for STAB + a coverage move. While you can only get rid of status once, you usually wont need any more times, as you can set up and wait till you're low on health to Rest, then KO the status user and continue your rampage.

On top of the lack of a STAB however, that Cresselia set has the weakness of just about every RestTalk user, which is that you may be forced to switch before you have woken up, leaving you with a mon that's essentially dead weight. Also, Sleep Talk isn't always reliable in terms of move selection which can be crucial in the difference between getting another boost and being KOed. So yeah, not a bad set, but I think it's outclassed by the other options.

 

[BlankZero]

My main qualm with that set Blankzero is that if I wanted to use a boosting Cress, why not use something like Chestorest? On your set you lack a STAB move (which is a pretty big problem for any sweeper), while a Chestorest set would have room for STAB + a coverage move. While you can only get rid of status once, you usually wont need any more times, as you can set up and wait till you're low on health to Rest, then KO the status user and continue your rampage.

On top of the lack of a STAB however, that Cresselia set has the weakness of just about every RestTalk user, which is that you may be forced to switch before you have woken up, leaving you with a mon that's essentially dead weight. Also, Sleep Talk isn't always reliable in terms of move selection which can be crucial in the difference between getting another boost and being KOed. So yeah, not a bad set, but I think it's outclassed by the other options.

I've done ChestoRest on this as well, but this RestTalk really works well as an endgame wall when you're down to your last Mon. It's by no means perfect, but it is quite a wall. If only I could run a 5th move.

Also, I would run STAB, but MonoAttacking Ice has better coverage than MonoAttacking Psychic. Honestly, I usually run Moonlight and Toxic, or just rest and toxic and just let Cress be hit a few times while asleep, as her bulk is ridiculous already. I guess you could run CM/Psyshock/Ice Beam/Rest with Chesto Berry, but then you lose Lefties recovery. It's really a toss up and whatever set you run will reflect on what team you're running. I'll do some more testing, but this Cress isn't terrible. I just felt like, with Rest, she was healed and then deadweight for 2 turns. At least this way she has an option to use while she naps.

 

[youngjake93]

I feel as if that Cresselia set was made to destroy in tier shift with like Terrakion as a partner or even bulk up scrafty!
In doubles.. Meh, it can get forced out too fast and doesn't get nice stat boosts or 1v1 match ups.

 

[BlankZero]

I feel as if that Cresselia set was made to destroy in tier shift with like Terrakion as a partner or even bulk up scrafty!
In doubles.. Meh, it can get forced out too fast and doesn't get nice stat boosts or 1v1 match ups.

Read again. It's not made to come out and sweep. It's a trump card for when you need to wall up a bit and stall out an opponent at the end of a match. It can be forced out yes, but so can any setup Mon.

 

[Mr.E]

I remember one time in singles (and gen 4 to boot), I couldn't kill some goofy Charge Beam Cresselia as it slowly boosted itself to +6. I stalled it out with Jirachi because it simply doesn't do any damage, especially with defense EVs in mind. It's a poor imitation of Latias, who can more reliably utilize its STAB and has a much higher base offensive capability.

And it has a harder time setting up in doubles to boot. You're better off with Helping Hand if you want to punish an opponent for ignoring your Cresselia, which players are (or at least I am) wont to do since it usually doesn't pose a serious threat itself.

 

[StarmanXL]

I dunno man, with the ability to set up screens and helping hand and icy wind and trick room and thunder wave, Cress is definitely a mon I would want dead sooner rather than later, so you can't really rely on the enemy ignoring it.

 

[BlankZero]

Has anyone tried using Tornadus-Therian at all? It's not banned in Doubles...

 

[StarmanXL]

I haven't used it, but I think its real problem is that Tornadus-I does things better. All Tornadus-T has going for it is Regenerator, which is cool, but not cool enough. You want a tailwind user? Tornadus-I does it better. You want a rain setter and abuser? Tornadus-I does it better. Pure damage? Tornadus-I has better offenses. Speed? Tornadus-T wins there, but really they're both really fast. Want to try a physical set? Tornadus-I wins because it gets Defiant to fuck over the glut of Intimidate users. Really, I'm just not sure what niche Tornadus-T can eke out for himself in this meta.

 

[BlankZero]

I haven't used it, but I think its real problem is that Tornadus-I does things better. All Tornadus-T has going for it is Regenerator, which is cool, but not cool enough. You want a tailwind user? Tornadus-I does it better. You want a rain setter and abuser? Tornadus-I does it better. Pure damage? Tornadus-I has better offenses. Speed? Tornadus-T wins there, but really they're both really fast. Want to try a physical set? Tornadus-I wins because it gets Defiant to fuck over the glut of Intimidate users. Really, I'm just not sure what niche Tornadus-T can eke out for himself in this meta.

It's really kind of sad that the only 2 "Uber" I see anymore are DeoA and Skymin. It's like the things that were too powerful for OU Singles are just not up to par in Doubles.

That being said, Torn-T still has a killer SleepTalk set.

 

[StarmanXL]

Why is that sad at all? I don't see anything wrong with that (besides, Genesect is pretty good, and Excadrill is a must for any sand team). Also I'm skeptical of SleepTalk--I can't imagine it being too reliable and it's not like Torn-T has the defenses and typing for repeated resting.

 

[Pocket]

Yea, Tornadus-I will see more use than Tornadus-T for number of reasons. Firstly it has better abilities in DEFIANT and Prankster. Secondly, it packs more power, allowing to do cool things like scoring a KO on Latios with Flying Gem-boosted Acrobatics! Tornadus-T's Regenerator and Speed really doesn't compare to such advantages.

I started making a new team to test out CM HydraRest Manaphy:

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Trait: Hydration
EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
Bold Nature
- Calm Mind
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Rest

It was a bit harder to use than I have expected. First of all, it needs at least +2 CMs to really get going, so Rage Powder / Follow Me support is particularly beneficial. Amoonguss is the best mon for this, because it can soak Electric and Grass-type assaults with ease. Lightning Rod user is another nifty support to shield Manaphy from concentrated Electric attacks while it's setting up. Against a defensive team, it's quite easy to grab those boosts on Manaphy. Offensive teams oftentimes wont allow Manaphy to set up willy nilly, though, so you'd want a plan B. It's quite frustrating that I cannot fit Protect on this set (I need Ice Beam for Gastrodon), which would help buy time when facing offensive teams. Kyurem-Black in particular is annoying, because it can usually tear through Amoongus and Manectric (my LRod user) without a thought to get to Manaphy. Definitely have a strong checks to dragons like Kyurem-Black (and to a lesser extent Latios / Hydreigon). And of course don't forget Politoed ;)

I tested this team with some of the peeps at #doubles (thanks guys :>)

vs Pwnemonhttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-15178403 - showcases where Manaphy couldn't pull its weight ;( Kyurem-Bitch negated LRod fml
vs Mr.lolhttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-15181193 - faced a gimmicky team; he didn't mount a strong enough offense to stop Manaphy from grabbing boosts.

 

[Cease Tick]

Hey guys I just posted an rmt; I figured you might be interested so I decided to post about it here. Here's a preview:

Hide

Chief Justice (Scizor) @ Occa Berry
Trait: Technician
EVs: 136 HP / 152 Atk / 172 SDef / 48 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Tailwind
- Protect

El Presidente (Tyranitar) @ Chople Berry
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 100 HP / 184 Atk / 224 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Rock Slide
- Stone Edge
- Protect

Predator (Genesect) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Download
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- U-turn
- Flamethrower
- Giga Drain
- Ice Beam

The Nuclear Option (Victini) @ Choice Band
Trait: Victory Star
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- V-create
- U-turn
- Bolt Strike
- Brick Break

Chief of Staff (Latias) (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 HP / 4 SAtk
Timid Nature
- Tailwind
- Heal Pulse
- Draco Meteor
- Helping Hand

M16 (Breloom) @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Bullet Seed
- Spore
- Protect

Also there may be a big post about tailwind coming here in the near future, but I'm too tired to write it now.

 

[Pocket]

Another powerful newcomer graces Doubles! My appreciation for Victini doubled (no pun intended >_<) from watching your replays (and facing Joim's Sun TR team ;(). For a team that is pimping with Victini, it's quite hard-walled by Heatran, though. Genesect & Victini may be great Tailwind sweepers, but they are probably not meant to be used on a same team ;x

You peaked #1 and not me, so you probably know what you're doing more than me, though, lol

 

[Joim]

Good team, but over that, good player. Let's see if I can peak #1 too someday with my current team or a new one :X

 

[Bidoofs Crazy Videos]

Does anybody think that a thread like this will ever be made for triple battles, or will they remain competitive solely to random match-up Wi-Fi?

 

[BlankZero]

Specially Defensive Vaporeon seems to wall a good majority of the Metagame, bar Ferrothorn, Thundy, Specs Jolteon, and.... Not much else really. It's so bulky, and with access to Acid Armor, HydraRest, Scald and Toxic, you can pair it next to Ferrothorn on a RainStall team and wall just about anything currently in wide use.

Just to show you how strong this fucking thing is...

I've been testing out the WolfeTran with Sunny Day Support Cress. It was doing very well actually, but then it came down to me versus this bastard Vaporeon with max Special Defense. Even in the Sun with Helping Hand, I had no way of breaking it.

Heat Wave: 21.38 - 25.26%

Earth Power: 22.89 - 26.99%


76+ SpA Heatran Helping Hand Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Vaporeon: 106-125 (22.89 - 26.99%) -- possible 5HKO

POSSIBLE 5HKO

Jesus Christ Vaporeon.

And in Doubles, the vast majority of attackers are Specially based due to Spread Damage.

 

[BlankZero]

Does anybody think that a thread like this will ever be made for triple battles, or will they remain competitive solely to random match-up Wi-Fi?

Possible but doubtful at best.

 

[Darkmalice]

Does anybody think that a thread like this will ever be made for triple battles, or will they remain competitive solely to random match-up Wi-Fi?

There is a thread like this for triple battles that refers to the Wi-Fi triple battles.
http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3447632. It's not a Smogon-made triples metagame though.

I think if Smogon userbase's grows large enough, there may be a Smogon metagame made for triple battles in Gen IV, but definitely not for the time being.


Also Cease Tick, great team you have there! Congrats on getting to #1! Have you considered Sitrus Berry over Leftovers on Latias? Latias doesn't have a move to prolong its survivability, and given that, I'd suspect that Latias would prefer the quick healing from Sitrus than Leftovers, especially if it wants to get off a quick Tailwind or Heal Pulse before fainting.

 

[BlankZero]

Bringing up the Deoxys-A discussion a bit again.

Has anyone tried running Dark Pulse on it? It was released in Japan (will be available in US this May).

Can Deo-A drop it's ESpeed/Coverage Move to fit in Dark Pulse for those annoying bulky Psychics?

252SpAtk Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Levitate Cresselia (+SpDef): 32% - 39% (146 - 174 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

Fuck Cresselia anyhow with a rake. Let's look at some less ridiculous psychic types out there...

252SpAtk Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 66% - 78% (282 - 332 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Looks like Bulky/OTR Reuniclus gets nerfed by it. Running ESpeed next to it though...

252Atk Deoxys (Neutral) ExtremeSpeed vs 252HP/0Def Reuniclus (Neutral): 33% - 39% (141 - 167 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

Looks like even if it gets the Trick Room off (it shouldn't if you run a Fake Out/Taunt Partner like Sableye or Weavile) you'll 99% KO it before it can retaliate. Unless you seriously low roll both times, you have a minimum 99% damage done. Not too bad for one of the bulkier Psychics in the Meta.

It also got Nasty Plot from the same event. I was wondering...would Deo-D become a reliable setup sweeper with a combo of Dark Pulse/NP/Psychic/Agility? Let's look.

252SpAtk +2 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/0SpDef Reuniclus (Neutral): 68% - 81% (292 - 344 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Looks promising. After 1 NP, Deo-D can 2HKO Reuniclus.

And for lolz?

252SpAtk +6 Deoxys (+SAtk) Dark Pulse vs 252HP/252SpDef Levitate Cresselia (+SpDef): 68% - 81% (306 - 360 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

FUCK YOU CRESS!

Honestly, I could see running Deo-D as a late-game sweeper now that NP and Dark Pulse have been released. This is mostly Theorymonning at the moment, but I do plan on testing it on the ladder a bit, and maybe some more after OMPL is over.

What are your opinions on it?

 

[StarmanXL]

Deoxys already had access to Shadow Ball for psychics so I don't see how this changes much anything. Also that Deo-D would get fucked over by dark and steel types pretty badly, I would think. I would rather just use something that could hit things hard off the bat than have to rely on NP for Deo-D.

 

[nyttyn]

To Dark Pulse/Shadow Ball, I say: no. You run Ice Beam because so many threats are weak/quad weak to Ice and get instantly murdered by it without worrying about a stat drop, you run Psycho Boost because it hits like a fucking truck, and you run Superpower because otherwise steel types would laugh at your face.

Deoxys-A just doesn't have the room. Everything it would try to kill with it are stupidly bulky fuckers regardless.

Also Deo-D is both too slow to run a NP set, and too fast to run a NP set in TR. Just not worth it.