General Doubles Metagame Thread

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Any set in particular? Hydreigon seems good but I've not seen it used too extensively. I"m assuming Dark Pulse/Fire Blast/Dragon Pulse or Draco-Meteor/U-Turn?
 

Pocket

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The standard Hydreigon set is Draco Meteor - Dark Pulse - coverage move / Tailwind - Protect @ Dark or Dragon Gem i think. Just like Latios it can pull of Sub + Protect combo quite nicely I think. Coverage move can be anything from Earth Power for Heatran, Focus Blast for Tyranitar / Heatran / Ferrothorn, or Fire Blast for non-Heatran Steel-types, depending on what your team needs covered. It is also a good user of Taunt or Roost, imo, although finding a moveslot for it may be difficult ;s

I also have to agree with Pwnmeon, that Kyurem-Black is making a notable splash in Doubles, unlike other exclusive legendaries. It just has great bulk and crazy power, a good tanky characteristics that Doubles often favor.
 

Mizuhime

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Dragon gem with draco dark pulse coverage and protect is the set I use in vgc/doubles and it's one of the best dragoins imo
 

nyttyn

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woo 100 wins

After playing over one hundred matches in Doubles, I feel I'm qualified to start talking about it as a metagame - it is awesome, for starters. Completely awesome, hands down the best metagame I've played yet, capable of insane plays and batshit maneuvers impossible in any other metagame. It's not polished yet, but I think we're coming close to the point where we should start being a bit more serious about Doubles future as a metagame.

As it stands, nothing "stands out" as broken right now in Doubles - and that is completely glorious on so many levels. While Skymin's BS might get a bit obnoxious at times, it's really not that bad even, and that's pretty much the only case I can think off of the top of my head. I think that, once we start entering the Suspect phase, we should actually try to bring things down - Doubles seems like a metagame where bringing things down from ubers is actually a valid, legitimate, possible option.

But wherever the future path we take, I think we have something extremely promising on our hands here. I have seen a plethora of pokemon and combos used in my doubles escapedes, from the basic ZapEtic Discharge to a surprisingly ingenious Heatran Bronzong Skill Swap wombo combo. While there is much we can learn from VGC, it is clear the extra two pokemon add an extra layer to Doubles that none of us could have seen coming, as well as the unbanned pokemon.

And with that, I would like to talk about one of them.

INTRODUCING:




#386 - Deoxys
The DNA Pokemon
Attack Forme

Type:

BST: 600
50 HP / 180 Attack / 20 Defense / 180 Special Attack / 20 Special Defense / 150 Speed



Right off the bat, the first thing that leaps out at you are Deoxys-Attack's absolutely insane attacking stats: 180/180/150 is sufficient to outspeed, outmurder, and outmatch every other attacker in the entire game with both physical and special attacks. Combined with a movepool that has just enough coverage and raw might to obliterate your foes, Deoxys-A is the epitome of offense. Unfortunately, these are matched up with paper-thin 50/20/20 defenses - Deoxys-A will survive, at best, extremely weak neutral spread attacks. But it's okay, Deoxys-A doesn't need to live that long - the best defense is a dead enemy.

Items

The most important decision you will make on your Deoxys is yet the most simple choice - will you be using Life Orb, or Focus Sash? This choice will effect not only what moves you use, but the very way you use Deoxys-A: Life Orb sets work better as cleanup sweepers, able to obliterate the remnants of a weakened team, while Focus Sash sets will attempt to launch an absolutely devastating initial salvo which your opponent will be extremely hardpressed to recover from.


Life Orb
Pros:
  • Gains more OHKOs then Focus Sash
  • Has more upfront killing potential
  • Makes Deoxys-A an absolutely terrifying cleanup sweeper
Cons:
  • Not as good at leading off
  • Loses saftey coushion that Focus Sash provides
  • Recoil, however moot in the grand scheme of things, will make surviving even the weakest of blows like a midsummer night's dream

Focus Sash
Pros:
  • Provides Deoxys-A a layer of saftey
  • Turns it into an absolutely terrifying lead
  • Allows Deoxys-A to BS around some things that would otherwise kill it
Cons:
  • Loses out on some OHKOs
  • Passive damage renders it almost useless

Moveset
While Deoxys-A has a plethora of moves at its disposal, it ultimately comes down to five main moves: Psycho Boost, Ice Beam, Superpower, Extremespeed, and Protect. For starters, you need to run Protect on literally every set - It simply provides far too much utility, from stalling out crucial turns of Trick Room/Tailwind, to preventing Deoxys-A from dying/sash breaking to Fake Out, the sheer utility of Protect cannot be forsaken. From there, Psycho Boost is also mandatory, as it does far too much damage to not be a staple of every single Deoxys-A set. In addition, Superpower cannot be dropped either, as without it, the likes of Tyranitar, Cacturne, and Ferrothorn would simply stop Deoxys-A cold.

Thusly, in the end, the choice will depend on what you desire, and what item you are using: Life Orb users cannot afford to miss out on Extremespeed's priority, while Focus Sash users can choose between Extremespeed for Priority, or rely on Ice Beam to take out the surprisingly bulky pokemon which are quad weak to Ice (Gilscor, Salamence, Landorus-T, Garchomp, just to name a few). There are also a number of other options you can consider, such as Hidden Power [Fire], but that will depend on your team and what you, exactly, need from your Deoxys-A.

EVs
252 Spatk / 252 Spe Rash / Naive. Nuff said.

Support
Deoxys-A is not a pokemon that needs a ton of support if you are using a Sash set - in that case, it is the support, the best form of support you can get - outright killing things. On the other hand, if you are using Life Orb, you will want more support, but it isn't absolutely mandatory to build your team around Deoxys-A - but it will provide you great results if you do. You will, however, in both cases require at least some support.

Hands down, the best support Deoxys-A can get is Fake Out, allowing it to kill one pokemon with its unparalleled power while the other can do naught but just sit there, helpless, watching its best friend be torn asunder by the space viruses' galactic might. The best team-mate Deoxys-A can get is probably Hitmontop, as it provides not only Intimidate support for your entire team, allowing Deoxys-A to survive slightly more attacks then usual, but also provides the crucial moves Close Combat, Sucker Punch, and Wide Guard, which, in turn, allow Deoxys-A to not have to break its sash on Ferrothorn/take out double Psychic resist-Fighting weak leads at the same time (surprisingly common), take out Mono-Psychic types which give Deoxys-A serious trouble/take out weakened Scarfers before they can touch Deoxys-A, and protect Deoxys-A from moves such as Heat Wave, Rock Slide, and Surf, which would be suffficent to OHKO.

Other options include almost every Fake Out user. Even Persian has use if you want to ensure you win the Fake Out war, which Deoxys-A extremely appreciates. Use the Fake Out user that best fits your team - but if you lack a particular need, Hitmontop is Deoxys-A's best partner in crime.

Deoxys-A also appreciates Imprison Trick Room support, for obvious reasons, as well as Rage Powder/Follow Me (Amoongus!) support, Wide Guard support, Quick Guard support, and anything that generally either takes the heat off of it or makes its job easier.

Using Deoxys-A
The most important part of using Deoxys-A is knowing when to let it live, to reset its special attack/physical attack drops and come back in later for round two, and when to let it die. This will be something you can only learn from playing with it, but it is by far the most important skill to master.

While in general Deoxys-A boils down to just clicking on buttons and watching things die, you must also remember to establish a threat priority when using Deoxys-A - You must look at what DeoxysA can OHKO, what your partner can OHKO/KO in general, and what is most important to KO at any given time. As Deoxys-A is extremely fragile, you must carefully weigh which pokemon it should target at any given time - odds are more then likely you won't get a second shot.

And above all else, never forget that the best defense is a good offense.

Sample Set

Here's a Deoxys-A set to get you started.


Flandre (Deoxys-Attack) @ Focus Sash
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Rash Nature
- Psycho Boost
- Ice Beam
- Superpower
- Protect


Now go out there, and rain down carnage with this absolute terror from space! The sheer power of Deoxys-A cannot be conveyed with mere words - it is simply something you must try for yourself. Once you get a chance to try for yourself the sheer, outrageous power of this titan, you'll find yourself pleased with the results. The fact that I spent over an hour and a half typing up this post should speak volumes of how great Deoxys-A is.
 
I will attest to DeoA and Top being absolutely monstrous if you aren't prepared. I played this with my new mess around Sand team and go straight up nixed, losing 4 Pokemon in 2 turns, which shouldn't have happened but I underestimated the scary factor of Deoxys, to my own misfortune.

Try it out. You won't be disappointed.
 
Can't talk much because on phone but I will agree that Deo A is good if only because it forces the opponent to deal with it immediately, although I've not used it or seen many besides yours. How do you deal with bulky psychics and ghosts thoigh?

As for broken things I agree everything seems fairly well balanced but you gotta be careful
: it's still a young metagame so there's no telling what will happen (how long did it take to ban mence in DPP?). I find it interesting that you find Skymin the closest to possibly broken when in my experience a few other mons are far more annoying, namely cress and thundurus. I can't think of anything we'd wanna bring down though (fuck kyogre and groudon)
 

Pocket

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I am glad you brought up Deoxys-A, nyttyn - it deserves more love (like Landorus). UU usage is criminal >:[

I prefer LO, because what better way to make use of its 180/180 artillery than an item that augments its power further x_x I also opted for ExtremeSpeed > Ice Beam, because I'd rather not be picked off by priority (Psycho Boost + ExtremeSpeed 2HKOs Scizor, for instance). The great coverage that Ice Beam provides is appealing, though, no doubt! I do agree that Focus Sash in Doubles can be very devastating (as I've seen from your games), so I should give it a try.

One thing I suggest - go Rash. With Rash you still outpace base 130 Speed mons with ease, which is all you need, imo. You'd want as much firepower as Deoxys-A can get!

As for partners, I like pairing Deoxys-A with Pokemon that can deal with Cresselia and Sableye, two Pokemon that annoy this mon the most. On my team, I use Weavile and Scrafty for both Fake Out and STAB Dark moves to handle Cresselia, as well as Volcarona to handle Sableye (and again Cress). Chandelure would also work here, too (it also offers Imprison Trick Room support that nyttyn suggested!)

Two things I want to reiterate in nyttyn's post - Deoxys-A works best as a lead, where all the pieces are set to place (Deoxys-A is out with a Fake Out user, no maneuvering necessary). It's difficult to bring back Deoxys-A back into the game at a later stage, especially without Focus Sash. Another important fact is Protect's significance on Deoxys-A. On such a fragile mon that dies from a light breeze, Protect is its ultimate defense and it's lifeline. Clever user of Protect would allow Deoxys-A to last longer than 2 turns and actually create a larger mess than your opponent would expect. I could see Sash Deoxys-A relinquishing the utility of Protect for fourth killer move, though (HP Fire, Shadow Ball, Thunder(bolt), ExtremeSpeed), but it's probably not worth it.
 

nyttyn

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Bulky psychics I mostly have to just play around, with Cress being queen bitch (as she usually is). Usually I send in my DeoTop wombo combo to kill something t1, then pull out Deoxys-A out for use later when it's clear/when I need something dead yesterday. Bulky ghosts usually prove to be literally zero threat, the best I've seen one do is set up trick room and Imprison can handle that, Dragon Tail can also do such (Although I'd probably throw on a zoom lens or some shit, you REALLY don't want to miss a dragon tail even at the cost of durability/power).

And Skymin is mostly only potentially "broken" because flinch hax BS, and even then it's not nearly as bad as it is in singles.


See that post up there?

You see Pocket's great post?

Read that. It is a great post.

Edit: While I still need to work on my reasoning, as of this moment I would like to nominate Deoxys-Attack for Tier 1.

Here's 20 replays of just flat out battles with Deo-A (including one vs a guy over 1850) to help drive this point home

 
I guess I'll just have to use it. It’s been distressingly effective against my own teams when I faced it (my teams suck but whatever). Still not as much of a bitch as Cress though. Fuck cress. Does seem to go against the idea of bulky offense we've built up for doubles, although don't know to what extent. If he catches on I can see things growing more offensive.
 

ElectivireRocks

Banned deucer.
Can anyone comment on the Pledge moves?
Grass+Fire seems pretty worthless because of the fast-paced nature of doubles.
Water+Grass doesn't seem too useful when you can just use Tailwind or Icy Wind.
Fire+Water on the other hand has potential. 60% burn chance from Scald? 60% chance to lower accuracy with Muddy Water? 60% chance to flinch with Rock Slide? Looks definitely good on paper.
 
The pledge moves are cool in theory but seem far too gimmicky to be efficient. Also I doubt the 60% chance will really do you any favors. I mean look at Skymin: he has his inbuilt bs hax but they're not consistent enough to rely on.
 
Consistent enough to get it banned to ubers.
If Jirachi had a good enough attack stat to abuse Paraflinch, it would get banned too I think. Skymin just had too much Special Attack and in singles, Flinching continuously is deadly. You can just bring in a faster Ice Type (Hello Weaville) or Priority Ice Shard and nuke it, but some carry Yache and that gets super annoying.

In Doubles at least, you have a team mate who can focus-fire the damn deer and be over with, as Skymin is super frail.
 
Consistent enough to get it banned to ubers.
In singles, yes, but this isn't singles. With two targets and a prevalence of weather sweeper, fake out, speed control, and bs cress he's a threat but his ability is not consistent enough to reliably keep the enemy suppressed. That’s not saying he's bad - - he's damn good - - but not broken.

But that is besides the point. I mention Skymin because without any set up he can use flinchhax and sp def drops, and doesn't even have to sacrifice useful moves to do so. In contrast, with the pledges you require a two pokemon with specific moves that aren't all that great on their own, and to abuse the pledges requires a very specific combo. If Skymin can get directly to hax and it isn't overwhelming, then what does a strategy with many more turns and ways to fuck it have?
 

ElectivireRocks

Banned deucer.
In singles, yes, but this isn't singles. With two targets and a prevalence of weather sweeper, fake out, speed control, and bs cress he's a threat but his ability is not consistent enough to reliably keep the enemy suppressed. That’s not saying he's bad - - he's damn good - - but not broken.

But that is besides the point. I mention Skymin because without any set up he can use flinchhax and sp def drops, and doesn't even have to sacrifice useful moves to do so. In contrast, with the pledges you require a two pokemon with specific moves that aren't all that great on their own, and to abuse the pledges requires a very specific combo. If Skymin can get directly to hax and it isn't overwhelming, then what does a strategy with many more turns and ways to fuck it have?
Actually, when you use 2 pledge moves in the same turn, the second one gets its BP increased from 50 to 150. That's pretty damn good.
Swampert+Infernape seem to be the best candidates to use this combo.
It's probably not worth building an entire team around it, but I'm pretty sure both of them are viable in doubles and can spare a moveslot for those moves.

Keep in mind that Rock Slide hits both opponents and Infernape is quite fast, while Swampert is bulky and learns Icy Wind, which is helpful if you're planning to abuse flinchaxing.
As a bonus Infernape learns Fake Out while Swampert learns Wide Guard.
 

nyttyn

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Braverius, if things are flat out dying before they can even move then spread moves doesn't really matter. If Deoxys-A is getting two kills before it dies, mission accomplished. Really you're going to have to elaborate on more then just "lol spread moves" to say Deo-A is pretty sad given how many pros it has going for it. And any smart Deo-A user is going to use protect and switches to get around Prioirty, which is 99.5% of the time criminally obvious.

Also if you're new to the tier or don't mind giving it a rate, I posted a RMT: Savior of the Sky.
 
I'm gonna introduce a new thing: Spread moves and priority moves.

Deoxys-A is now: pretty sad
Introducing Hitmontop! Now with Wide Guard AND Fake Out! In Stores NOW!

But really, Focus Sash = 2 lives. Protect = exponentially more if used correctly (while the partner fakes out the priority user while DeoA kills the Spread user.)

It's a lot harder to take down than you suggest, which was what I thought initially. Til it protected in my face and my attacker got ruined by fight Gem CC from Top.
 
Actually, when you use 2 pledge moves in the same turn, the second one gets its BP increased from 50 to 150. That's pretty damn good.
That's my point. Unless you use them together, they do garbage damage, whereas other moves have very respectable BPs making them usable under a much wider variety of circumstances.
 

Pocket

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LOL, excellent find, Lagalag4 :D

it's unfortunate that there aren't many fast users of After You, though. The closest thing I could find is Mew - Cinccino should be attacking, not supporting its partner, imo. There are plenty of TR After You users, though, so Conkeldurr may be able to spam super strong Iron Fist-boosted Focus Punch if paired with such mons xD

Today, I tested Eggy's new team - and I'm posting the replayhttp://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/smogondoubles-14618555 here, since it does showcase some interesting stuff!
  • First I want to point out that nyttyn was right about Sash Deoxys-A - it actually saved me the game here, surviving Chandelure's Heat Wave to kill Amoonguss with Psycho Boost. Focus Sash also saved Eggy, too, foiling my plans to prevent Chandelure's Trick Room by killing it off with Latios's Dragon Gem-boosted Draco Meteor.
  • Effect Spore Amoonguss - I am not sure if most Doubles player prefer Effect Spore over Regenerator, but it has certainly trolled me in this game. That 30% chance to screw that Fake Out user is quite a bitch!
  • Utility of Gyarados in Doubles - although Gastrodon totally rendered it useless offensively, Gyarados was still able to provide some crucial support in this game, thanks to Intimidate, Taunt, T-Wave, and overall decent bulk and typing.
  • fucking Muddy Water - BAN!!! I was lucky that Eggy didn't set up Trick Room again when my Latios's move missed >_<
 

Stratos

Banned deucer.
Focus Punch + After You can be an absolute gold mine!!

If you use Focus punch with a conkeldurr and After You on Cinccino, you get a +-0 priority 115 speed Focus punch off a 140 base attack pokemon. Pack on a life orb or a fighting gem, and you have yourself a true "powerhouse"

Here is a VGC testing match using it: http://www.pokemonshowdown.com/replay/doublesvgc2013-14453054
Not really convinced this is worth it, at all. You only attack with one Pokemon per turn, instead of two. I mean technically you could attack with cinc but it's a joke, and conk's power output will tank. So while you're using AY-punch, you can only hit one Pokemon and then you're just giving its partner a free shot at whoever they choose (probably Cinc which is a complete joke defensively, and once it falls, gg strategy). Besides, though conky has coverage, your strategy isn't doing too hot when facing an amoonguss or Intimidator. And it's still outsped by a fair number of pokemon (in TR this becomes "all of them" and you have no way to stop TR here).

After You isn't necessarily a gimmick. But After You Cincinno + Focus Punch Conkeldurr definitely is
 
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