No offence, but I don't think you understand how it works. First, you set up a substitute on something that will be forced out, your opponent brings in something with a water / ice attack, like Mamoswine. You Baton Pass your substitute to Cloyster, which tanks the Icicle Spear (Substitute is still up), you then Shell Smash as Mamoswine breaks the Sub and you can then go on a sweep. Sure, your substitute only lasted 2 turns, but thats not the point, because in those 2 turns, you got a free set up, and now you have a 100% sweeper, fully boosted, that can go on a sweep. I don't really know what you are smoking, when you imply that Offensive teams struggle to use Sub Pass Gliscor, its been used effectively ON Offensive teams, you just include 2 set up sweepers, 1 that resists ice, one that resists water, (if they resist both then go you!) then go to town. Using a Baton Pass chain means we just end up with your standard Baton Pass team (for example, we prolly need Mr Mime to block Perish Song T_T ), and its not the direction I personally want us to focus on.While I was checking about defensive options, I noticed that Baton Passing Substitutes isn't exactly helpful at all, since playing with a number of bulkier and mostly slower Pokemon, not much will profit from Substitute. Due to Gliscor's high speed stat, it usually goes for Baton Pass before the opponent attacks, which means the Pass receiver will get hit by any move. Even if that doesn't exactly means the Sub will break, the opponent now knows what he/she has to deal with, giving our team just a few turns to take advantage of Substitute.
More aggressive teams (such as less bulkier, offensive teams) will have just another problem: they aren't really able to keep Substitute alive for more than a turn or maybe two, due to their fragility. That again means, without proper coverage, the opponent most likely can find a way to break through
That's exactly the kind of flexibility I was referring into my post! Weatherless was like, to me, "a team not based on weather", not a team without any weather inducer at all. If we want to use, say, Sunny Day Venusaur no problem (as long as it works with the rest of the team), or BP a substitute on Tyranitar while Politoed switches into Gliscor, all fine choices that I'd like to have available.I would like to point out that "weatherless" can very often mean a non-weather team with Tyranitar on it. Tyranitar and Hippowdon are pokemon too, not just a weather. You can put them on your "weatherless" team to win games against Rain and Sun, and in the current metagame's state I would not defend anyone saying that isn't vital.
I guess you just got me wrong. Since english isn't my first language, I can probably never avoid any misunderstanding, I'm sorry for that..No offence, but I don't think you understand how it works. First, you set up a substitute on something that will be forced out, your opponent brings in something with a water / ice attack, like Mamoswine. You Baton Pass your substitute to Cloyster, which tanks the Icicle Spear (Substitute is still up), you then Shell Smash as Mamoswine breaks the Sub and you can then go on a sweep. Sure, your substitute only lasted 2 turns, but thats not the point, because in those 2 turns, you got a free set up, and now you have a 100% sweeper, fully boosted, that can go on a sweep. I don't really know what you are smoking, when you imply that Offensive teams struggle to use Sub Pass Gliscor, its been used effectively ON Offensive teams, you just include 2 set up sweepers, 1 that resists ice, one that resists water, (if they resist both then go you!) then go to town. Using a Baton Pass chain means we just end up with your standard Baton Pass team (for example, we prolly need Mr Mime to block Perish Song T_T ), and its not the direction I personally want us to focus on.
Maybe I misinterpreted your post, in which case I apologise, but from what I read, it seemed that you were implying that Sub Pass Gliscor doesn't work with Offensive teams
This set doesn't need Protect, it's SubPass Gliscor, not Sub Toxic Gliscor. Why would we need Protect on this set anyway, SubPass and SubToxic Gliscor perform two different roles and I feel like you're really missing the point of this set. Most offensive teams nowadays only really carry a suicide lead + 5 sweepers, which means there's really nothing you have to take a hit. This Gliscor set fits perfectly on offense, as it actually provides you with a reliable switch into Terrakion, Scizor, etc. Gliscor also commonly baits a lot of switches, such as Skamory and Forretress. If you switch into a Terrakion or whatever to take a hit, it's likely that your opponent is going to bring something that can wall Gliscor, meaning you Substitute on the switch, and you can then Taunt or straight up Baton Pass out, into something to beat the switch in, while retaining a free Substitute. The difference between this set and Sub Toxic is that this set is moreso a defensive pivot that doesn't completely lose all your momentum, while Sub Toxic Gliscor can effectively stall out some of it's checks, which is a completely different set. This argument isn't very clear, mainly because we haven't decided on other team members who can be potential Baton Pass recipients, but the point is still the same.tehy said:Gliscor @ Toxic Orb
Trait: Poison Heal
evs: 248 HP / 24 Def / 236 Spe
Impish nature
~Substitute
~Baton Pass
~Earthquake
~Toxic / Taunt
So what are you replacing with protect? With EQ gone, it fails to have any offensive presence ever, kind of a problem-it doesn't impede so much it's ability to toxic stall, just its ability to check even stuff like lucario w/out ice punch, terrakion, so forth. With baton pass gone, it's no longer subpass gliscor, which was the point of the set. With toxic/taunt gone, you can't do much but stall endlessly. Really, it's going to be a mediocre pivot either way IMO, we should concentrate on its point, which is subpassing multiple times a game. And subpass only works if that sweeper isn't walled, which means we might as well have a lot of sweepers, cutting down on the likelihood of this happening.
That can still happen, but eitherway you still get a free switch into Cloyster, or whatever Pokemon for that matter because Baton Pass allows you to choose what you switch into even if your opponent switches, so even if you pass into Cloyster as Mamoswine breaks Gliscor's Substitute, you didn't have to directly hard switch into Cloyster, meaning you're not taking even more unnecessary damage. As for the point about Gengar being able to wall this Gliscor set, that's not really a problem. Every Pokemon is beaten by some sort of set, and we have 5 other Pokemon to choose yet, so we could easily pick another member that benefits from Gliscor's Substitutes that beats Gengar.Husky said:You say, you can set up when the opponent switches into a Mamoswine, but what if the opponent just goes for Ice Shard? You will switch without a Sub at all, means no time to set up with anything else. Expecting you _always_ get the opportunity to pass an active Sub is just not true from what I can say. Gliscor is not blazing fast, and it's still quite weak to any sort of fast special sweeper. For example, Gengar causes so much trouble to this set single-handedly, outspeeding and breaking Substitute with Shadow Ball without any effort.
Thank you for summarizing my entire argument. Try reading what led up to it next time, though.This set doesn't need Protect, it's SubPass Gliscor, not Sub Toxic Gliscor. Why would we need Protect on this set anyway, SubPass and SubToxic Gliscor perform two different roles and I feel like you're really missing the point of this set. Most offensive teams nowadays only really carry a suicide lead + 5 sweepers, which means there's really nothing you have to take a hit. This Gliscor set fits perfectly on offense, as it actually provides you with a reliable switch into Terrakion, Scizor, etc. Gliscor also commonly baits a lot of switches, such as Skamory and Forretress. If you switch into a Terrakion or whatever to take a hit, it's likely that your opponent is going to bring something that can wall Gliscor, meaning you Substitute on the switch, and you can then Taunt or straight up Baton Pass out, into something to beat the switch in, while retaining a free Substitute. The difference between this set and Sub Toxic is that this set is moreso a defensive pivot that doesn't completely lose all your momentum, while Sub Toxic Gliscor can effectively stall out some of it's checks, which is a completely different set. This argument isn't very clear, mainly because we haven't decided on other team members who can be potential Baton Pass recipients, but the point is still the same.
That can still happen, but eitherway you still get a free switch into Cloyster, or whatever Pokemon for that matter because Baton Pass allows you to choose what you switch into even if your opponent switches, so even if you pass into Cloyster as Mamoswine breaks Gliscor's Substitute, you didn't have to directly hard switch into Cloyster, meaning you're not taking even more unnecessary damage. As for the point about Gengar being able to wall this Gliscor set, that's not really a problem. Every Pokemon is beaten by some sort of set, and we have 5 other Pokemon to choose yet, so we could easily pick another member that benefits from Gliscor's Substitutes that beats Gengar.
(all calcs are with 252 atk evs, 4 spatk, shell smash and LO boost)
Cloyster @ Life Orb
Trait: Skill Link
EVs: 64 SAtk / 244 Spd / 200 Atk
Naive Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Icicle Spear
- Shell Smash
- Explosion
Everything Ginga said. Standardish cloyster that can OHKO SpD forretress after rocks eith hydro pump. EVs allow it to outspeed scarf terrakion at +2. Explosion>Rock Blast because rock blast cloyster is horrible and explosion actually kills stuff like Rotom. Can come in on physical water or ice moves and tank with ease and then set up. Best paired with another pokemon annoyed by the same stuff like rotom, because they can sweep after cloyster goes boom on rotom. Also lets gliscor get away without ice fang for other gliscor and dragonite.
Pretty much the only things that can revenge Cloyster anyways are base 110 choice scarfers and up, along with Xspeed D-nite(iirc takes like 40% from Adamant after defense drops, but I could be wrong), Scizor(only if it's 60% or below), and Breloom.I think a far more relevant question is;what can forretress even DO to you? At best, it volt switches;problematic but not that big a deal;if they've got a revenge-killer then you're a little boned anyhow, i guess they can go to him and have a somewhat alive pokemon as opposed to killbait.
And yeah, rock blast is just fine. There's no reason to force yourself to suicide when you're a sweeper IMO.
And we already set the moveset;gliscor can't "get away" with using ice fang anyhow, because that's not in the CCAT set.