That gives me an idea actually. HO team with this man as the spin blocker? I would only really have to watch out for cryogonal if Sitrus isn't used. He seems to put alot of pressure on teams not only because of that acro but destiny bond shenanigans.
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Resource XY NU Viability Ranking
- Thread starter jake
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Marowak and Ninjask should both move to B/B- because they make up a really great 2-Pokemon core that can sweep through teams that either lack or have weak priority.
Let these replays speak for themself:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-139640524
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-139650244
Let these replays speak for themself:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-139640524
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-139650244
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#1 neither of those replays had an opponent with a good team, and in both cases your opponent just made bad plays.
Regardless, you need actual justification for a pokemon to be moved, and in terms of Marowak and Ninjask, I feel C Rank is fine. They have good solid niches and can be good pokemon when used well, but require far too much support to do so, making them less cost effective than other pokemon who do their job equally well or better e.g. Combusken almost 100% outclasses Ninjask with better typing, the ability to sweep on its own as well as pass, and is not 4x weak to SR. In other words, these are pokemon that are able to be put into good use, but are frankly outclassed by other pokes.
Yeah let's totally put Ninjask in the same rank as Combusken, who has offensive presence, sweeping ability, and enough bulk with Eviolite to actually set up on shit.
Marowak, on the other hand, has always needed Speed boosts just to sweep teams. This is in the same league as powerhouses such as Octillery and Rampardos, but the thing is that Speed boosts can be passed to anyone. There are mons that do even better with the Attack and Speed pass (Kangaskhan comes to mind), and then there are those that outright need the boosts or they won't be doing any sweeping at all. Kind of like Swoobat and other Calm Mind Pokes: Swoobat becomes disgustingly powerful if it gets the boost, but without it Swoobat is very lackluster.
With the introduction of Slurpuff and Electivire, as well as the banning of Sigilyph, the metagame has gotten much friendlier to our favorite fruit. It can switch into the two biggest threats in the current meta, Feraligatr and Slurpuff, and wall them (unless Slurpuff uses Flamethrower on the switch). It is one of the most effective Spikes users, and also gets Stealth Rock, letting it be one of the premier hazard setters for balance / stall teams. Beyond beating Feraligatr and Slurpuff, it can perform many other roles. It effortlessly switches in on Vileplume, Qwilfish, Steelix, Probopass, Samurott, and many other Pokemon, using them as setup bait or simply KOing them. In conclusion, Ferroseed is an extremely viable Pokemon in the current metagame, and deserves B+ at least, if not A-.
Yeah, I've been running it more and more, and it's super bloody awesome.
Evire also has flamethrower so yeah thats a thing, otherwise I say it goes to b as opposed to b+ because fire attacks aren't as common as they once were and the only means of recovery it has is leech seed / rest. OTher then that really good pokemon as it's typing is absolutely amazing stopping things like specturn in it's tracks.
K i have another nomination from my laddering over the past few days.
Please drop Spiritomb from A+ to A
The latest shifts in the metagame really haven't been kind to Spiritomb. The drop of Slurpuff has added a new counter to most Spiritomb sets, as even if puff is burned, it can still OHKO with a +6 Play Rough. And CM sets just set up easily. The rise of sets like CB Hariyama have also proven to be difficuly for Spiritomb, because they are just so powerful they overwhelm it completely. Tomb is also susceptible to all hazards, so it cant check Spike-stacking teams very well. I still think it deserves A-rank because it is a great check to a lot of physical threats, and a potentially great cleaner with CM RestTalk, but there are just a few to many ways to take it down right now to justify it being A+.
Please drop Spiritomb from A+ to A
The latest shifts in the metagame really haven't been kind to Spiritomb. The drop of Slurpuff has added a new counter to most Spiritomb sets, as even if puff is burned, it can still OHKO with a +6 Play Rough. And CM sets just set up easily. The rise of sets like CB Hariyama have also proven to be difficuly for Spiritomb, because they are just so powerful they overwhelm it completely. Tomb is also susceptible to all hazards, so it cant check Spike-stacking teams very well. I still think it deserves A-rank because it is a great check to a lot of physical threats, and a potentially great cleaner with CM RestTalk, but there are just a few to many ways to take it down right now to justify it being A+.
Drifblim isn't that good. It's usable, but it's not at all "insanely good at" fucking with opposing teams. Spiritomb beats it with Infiltrator Shadow Sneak, which means it's not even safe behind a Substitute. Shiftry has no business trying to Sucker Punch a Drifblim anyways because Drifblim will always be carrying a support move. A fast Destiny Bond is not unique (Mismagius, Haunter to an extent), its unique typing hurts it more than it helps it, and its Acrobatics isn't that strong because it doesn't have Flying Gem to back it up anymore. I wouldn't be opposed to mid C, but don't put that shit anywhere in B.
Definitely supporting dropping Sceptile, I really don't think its very good right now, it is jsut so frail that even resisted attacks can 2HKO it after hazards. It has great coverage, and can run a few different decent sets (a physical SD set sounds nifty), none of the sets are really good enough to justify its current ranking in A-rank. I think B+ is the best place for Sceptile, because it is still a threat that needs to be prepared for, but any team with a bulky Grass-resist and a scarfer shouldn't have to many problems dealing with it.
Another pokemon I'd like to see go to B+ is Gorebyss. Smashpass is just not consistent enough right now, as with Prankster Encore Liepard hanging around, setting up is especially dangerous.It provides excellent support, but relies so heavily on team matchup, its either a straight 6-0 from turn 1, or else you're not setting up at all. That, and its either really susceptible to status if it runs White Herb, or its recipients suck if its running Lum. B+ for Gorebyss please.
Another pokemon I'd like to see go to B+ is Gorebyss. Smashpass is just not consistent enough right now, as with Prankster Encore Liepard hanging around, setting up is especially dangerous.It provides excellent support, but relies so heavily on team matchup, its either a straight 6-0 from turn 1, or else you're not setting up at all. That, and its either really susceptible to status if it runs White Herb, or its recipients suck if its running Lum. B+ for Gorebyss please.
ok idk if it was suggested already or not but w/e.
Zangoose should drop to B+ or even B. Yes it's strong, yes on paper it can 2HKO/OHKO everything, but I really don't think this metagame is favorable for Zangoose. Right now the tier is filled with Spikes stack, a LOT of amazing priority users, a good amount of good Pokemon able to outspeed it and eat up a Quick Attack... and coupled with its frailty, having to get a free turn to activate its Toxic Orb (i know its not a big deal with a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch, but still..) and not lasting really long because of its own item. A lot of people oversold Zangoose saying it can OHKO a lot of things when it get going... but did anyone see it kill more than 1 or 2 Pokemon against a WELL BUILT team? Any good team at the moment should be able to deal with Zangoose without really thinking about it lol. Now don't get me wrong; It does awesome against some balance team, but I don't think Zangoose deserve A- for that.
sorry if i sound mad/upset its like 5am
Zangoose should drop to B+ or even B. Yes it's strong, yes on paper it can 2HKO/OHKO everything, but I really don't think this metagame is favorable for Zangoose. Right now the tier is filled with Spikes stack, a LOT of amazing priority users, a good amount of good Pokemon able to outspeed it and eat up a Quick Attack... and coupled with its frailty, having to get a free turn to activate its Toxic Orb (i know its not a big deal with a slow U-Turn/Volt Switch, but still..) and not lasting really long because of its own item. A lot of people oversold Zangoose saying it can OHKO a lot of things when it get going... but did anyone see it kill more than 1 or 2 Pokemon against a WELL BUILT team? Any good team at the moment should be able to deal with Zangoose without really thinking about it lol. Now don't get me wrong; It does awesome against some balance team, but I don't think Zangoose deserve A- for that.
sorry if i sound mad/upset its like 5am
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Probopass from C- to C+
I'm surprised to see probopass this low. Slurpuff is now in the tier, and Probopass can switch into every set slurpuff has, taking a max of 32% from modest surf (this is assuming probopass is max spdef). Power gem got buffed this gen for those who forgot, making Probopass a little bit better offensively. Having access to volt switch makes Probopass the slowest volt switcher in the tier, letting you get in your offensive mons safely.
Supporting Vileplume from A+ to A-
The meta has really adapted to Vileplume. You'd think that Vileplume can switch in on things such as shiftry or gatr, but if they setup an sd vileplume will lose to gatr 100% (gatr sd's on the switch then sd's again and kills with ice punch. This is with lum so you can't sleep powder either) of the time and lose to shiftry most of the time (+2 lo knock off from shiftry has a good chance of killing at full power ). There's also gothorita which traps this thing like no other, it OHKOs with specs psychic. All assuming vileplume has a spread of 252 HP / 252+ Def.
I'm surprised to see probopass this low. Slurpuff is now in the tier, and Probopass can switch into every set slurpuff has, taking a max of 32% from modest surf (this is assuming probopass is max spdef). Power gem got buffed this gen for those who forgot, making Probopass a little bit better offensively. Having access to volt switch makes Probopass the slowest volt switcher in the tier, letting you get in your offensive mons safely.
Supporting Vileplume from A+ to A-
The meta has really adapted to Vileplume. You'd think that Vileplume can switch in on things such as shiftry or gatr, but if they setup an sd vileplume will lose to gatr 100% (gatr sd's on the switch then sd's again and kills with ice punch. This is with lum so you can't sleep powder either) of the time and lose to shiftry most of the time (+2 lo knock off from shiftry has a good chance of killing at full power ). There's also gothorita which traps this thing like no other, it OHKOs with specs psychic. All assuming vileplume has a spread of 252 HP / 252+ Def.
I know this is trivial, but I propose Pidgeot --> D. Yeah I know, Pidgeot. And argueably this would just about 100% no chance to use this poke without the extra speed boost it got this generation, to 101. But I think Pidgeot is a viable choice scarfed berd pokemon. It is not totally hampered with stealth rock switch ins, like archeops and scyther(not really a berd but w/e), has good enough bulk (writing this I suppose cs swellow could work, but its also alot frailer so yeah), has u-turn (unlike fearow), and can outspeed base 100's (unlike chatot and swanna). Has a crappy 80 attack stat and equally crappy abilities, but it fills a small niche that might suit well for some teams (like my crappy team around 180 on ladder).
Going with my crappy team, Wynaut to D could work to trap stuff like magmortar, typhlosion and sawk, and encore slower pokes to ensure a free set-up opportunity for a poke, but gothorita is by far a superior trapping option, and can trick a scarf/specs. If custap is released, then definitely it should be ranked tho
Going with my crappy team, Wynaut to D could work to trap stuff like magmortar, typhlosion and sawk, and encore slower pokes to ensure a free set-up opportunity for a poke, but gothorita is by far a superior trapping option, and can trick a scarf/specs. If custap is released, then definitely it should be ranked tho
Holy shit when did Plume rise to A+ lol? I remember when I first decided on its nomination I opted for B+/A- myself, because I already predicted that once the meta adapts, Vileplume's weaknesses would finally catch up to it. Lo and behold, people are starting to realize that Plume can be dealt with (fucking Goth). Plume still hits pretty hard for a defensive mon, but usually still isn't quite enough to deter that initial switch-in to really dangerous sweepers. That said, losing some problem counters such as Magneton and Fletchinder (as well as perhaps Goth) does help, and Plume does have that free moveslot to help fend off threats or support the team (Stun Spore, Sleep Powder, Aromatherapy, Hidden Power Fire), so maybe A- is still good for it. I mean, it is something you should still prepare for lest it outlast a good majority of your team and wear you down. That said, I heard Spikes stacking is on the rise, and that isn't good news for Plume (part of what stunted it defensively in BW NU), considering its low healing PP. We'll have to wait and see how popular hazarding teams are to decide on Plume's Rank.Can we drop this to A-? Like even lower would be cool to me lol. Vileplume is a cool pivot, and it's a nice check to Sawk, Feraligatr, and Shiftry, but too much stuff beats it. Even the aforementioned Pokemon can overwhelm it with hazard support, and considering that it is not weak to Stealth Rock, it's a pain that it needs Defog or Rapid Spin support in order to do its job effectively and consistently. It is also total setup fodder for Klinklang, SubCM Uxie, CM Spiritomb, Spikes Ferroseed, etc. Like it's a great pivot, but it is grossly overrated right now. Also, it is vitriolic and vile.
You know, I find it hilarious that the user above you (Davon) has the very Pokemon I'd like to bring up that gives Pidgeot the most competition. Also, Fearow does get U-turn, pretty sure you meant Dodrio. So if I use Pidgeot over Dodrio, I get +1 Speed and U-turn...while losing Knock Off and 30 Attack? The Attack loss is huge, and greatly diminishes Pidgeot's ability to revenge things, which by extension weakens its very marginal Speed increase. As for the exclusive move, Pidgeot's U-turn is nice but problematic to have on an SR weak Pokemon (whose best attack is a recoil move :P), while Knock Off is actually pretty neat on Dodrio since its counters tend to not have reliable recovery, meaning it can indirectly deal with them itself by stripping their Leftovers. Pidgeot is definitely not worth over Dodrio in almost any circumstance. Don't try to bring up Defog either: fucking Noctowl likely does that shit better XP
I don't see u-turn on s.r. weak poke as too problematic. Yeah the 23% attack drop isnt that great, but really it's meant to revenge faster pokes that are generally frailer, so the attack usually doesnt mean a whole lot anyways. This might mean that you have to rely on bb more often than return, but both can perform the job. Personally rather have u-turn and guarantee to outspeed typhlosion as a revenge killer than risk a speed tie and not have u-turn, though as a non-revenge killer, definitely dodrio is better. And honestly, defog is a nice added bonus :)
Victreebel to C+
Even though there was a weather nerf, he still is not completely useless. Give him a Choice Scarf and you can wreck stuff. The sun really is not so much of a dependency, but it does help. He has amazing offenses for this tier. But nonetheless, he's kind of frail and needs some bulky teammates. He still isn't a bad option, it's just there is better ones, like Sceptile who isn't dependent on weather anyways.
Even though there was a weather nerf, he still is not completely useless. Give him a Choice Scarf and you can wreck stuff. The sun really is not so much of a dependency, but it does help. He has amazing offenses for this tier. But nonetheless, he's kind of frail and needs some bulky teammates. He still isn't a bad option, it's just there is better ones, like Sceptile who isn't dependent on weather anyways.
The only Pokes "faster" than Dodrio that Pidgeot outspeeds are base 100s, and it's not like Dodrio is outsped by them guaranteed. Not to mention the only common base 100 Scarf threat so far is Typhlosion...
252 Atk Pidgeot Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Typhlosion: 174-205 (58.5 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This is your "reward" for outspeeding Typhlosion, a measly 70% at best (not even a KO after Stealth Rock); Dodrio has better odds of beating Typhlosion by winning the speed tie and has a 3/4 chance to OHKO after Rocks, which is effectively a 3/8 chance as opposed to Pidgeot's 0%. Literally all Pidgeot gets in terms of new targets are base 100s which it still fails to KO, and everything that is slower is dealt with better by Dodrio. It's not so much that U-turn is bad on Pidgeot, but rather how good Knock Off is on Dodrio, so you're kind of missing out. You know what, forget Dodrio. Never mind that Swellow's 85 Attack and 125 Speed outclass Pidgeot's 80 Attack and 101 Speed completely. Never mind that Swellow has much better offensive abilities. Never mind that Swellow can actually outspeed even speedier stuff like Scarf Pyroar, giving it even greater revenge killing ability. And we know that Guts Swellow is so much better than Scarf Swellow....which is superior to Scarf Pidgeot :/ So yeah, no reason to use Pidgeot over any other bird.
Garbodor from C- to B-
While severely outclassed by Crustle, Omaster and Accelgor as a suicide lead, Garbodor shines when it comes to laying down hazards during the course of the game. It stats do it no mercy but the spikes set from last gen got a whole lot better this gen. Qwilfish gives it competition but Garbodor has a few things going for it:
While severely outclassed by Crustle, Omaster and Accelgor as a suicide lead, Garbodor shines when it comes to laying down hazards during the course of the game. It stats do it no mercy but the spikes set from last gen got a whole lot better this gen. Qwilfish gives it competition but Garbodor has a few things going for it:
- Doesn't die to random special attacks
- Gunk shot buff and key resistance to Fairy
- Emergency check to almost any physical attackers e.g SD Gatr, Shiftry etc.
- Sets up spikes on shit ton of stuff like Spiritomb, Shiftry, Liepard, Vileplume, Accelgor, Gurdurr, Primape Almost all walls, Granbull etc. while giving zero fucks
- Looks like brawlfest
Ok two things:
Slurpuff ---> S-Rank
Slurpuff is stupidly versatile in this tier. It has a number of ways to be very effective, such as Belly Drum Unburden, Calm Mind, one of the thousand defensive variants, etc. Without any notable steel types in the tier (barring Steelix I guess? it would be an issue even if it wasn't steel though due to it's monster defense) the Belly Drum set has no problem pulling off sweeps if opposing priority is removed. The Calm Mind set is a very effective lure for the defensive walls that would normally come in, and they proceed to die to Puff's massive special movepool. No question that Slurpuff should be
S, and in the future, possibly suspected.
In light of that, Shiftry should move back down to A+
Yes, I know I'm the one who got it into S, but then Slurpuff came in and ruined it's life. If Slurpuff comes in on a predicted Knock Off (which isn't hard to scout, since it's the main move Shiftry will be using) you have a guaranteed switch or OHKO on your hands. Shiftry is still very good, but Puff just makes it too much of a liability for S now.
Slurpuff ---> S-Rank
Slurpuff is stupidly versatile in this tier. It has a number of ways to be very effective, such as Belly Drum Unburden, Calm Mind, one of the thousand defensive variants, etc. Without any notable steel types in the tier (barring Steelix I guess? it would be an issue even if it wasn't steel though due to it's monster defense) the Belly Drum set has no problem pulling off sweeps if opposing priority is removed. The Calm Mind set is a very effective lure for the defensive walls that would normally come in, and they proceed to die to Puff's massive special movepool. No question that Slurpuff should be
S, and in the future, possibly suspected.
In light of that, Shiftry should move back down to A+
Yes, I know I'm the one who got it into S, but then Slurpuff came in and ruined it's life. If Slurpuff comes in on a predicted Knock Off (which isn't hard to scout, since it's the main move Shiftry will be using) you have a guaranteed switch or OHKO on your hands. Shiftry is still very good, but Puff just makes it too much of a liability for S now.
Boi, I'm sorry, but I disagree with both of those. You're making Slurpuff sound like a God when in reality it's just really good. It's extremely prone to being burned / paralyzed (which isn't extremely hard to come by) and Liepard can just lock it into any of its setup moves and call it a day. It's extremely dangerous, but it can't OHKO everything:
- +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vileplume: 281-331 (79.3 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
- +6 252+ Atk Slurpuff Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Rhydon: 196-232 (47.3 - 56%) -- 80.9% chance to 2HKO
- +5 252+ Atk Slurpuff Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Qwilfish: 266-313 (79.6 - 93.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Ok, those are certainly checks to it, but what can they do to the CM set?
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Vileplume: 262-310 (74 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
Sludge Bomb 2HKOes at +1 SpDef
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Rhydon: 600-708 (144.9 - 171%) -- guaranteed OHKO
rekt
+1 252+ SpA Slurpuff Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Qwilfish: 390-460 (116.7 - 137.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
see above
I agree if Belly Drum were the ONLY set, it would be an A+ pokemon tops. But due to the ability of it to run two sets with such completely different checks, I'd definitely say S.
But how does it run all those moves? The standard should be Calm Mind / Dazzling Gleam / Flamethrower / whatever, so one way or another it has checks and counters, it's not unbeatable.
Definetly support Slurpuff for S rank. Slurpuff is a late game sweeper, and all those mons you listed will have aquired enough previous damage in the match to be KOd. A simple layer of Spikes + Stealth Rock is in fact enough to get the KOs on Vileplume and Qwilfish alone, and Rhydon has no recovery, and is extremely prone to being worn down by Slurpuff's teammates. Add to that that if Slurpuff is running a special set to take advantage of your physically defensive counters, and you can find yourself in trouble very, very fast.
Regarding Liepard, Slurpuff simply won't set up while Liepard is in play, and Liepard plays a dangerous game in coming in if not after a kill, as it's instantly KOd by a Fairy STAB. Otherwise you can switch on the completely obvious Encore into a Pokemon that's unimpressed by Liepard, such as Pangoro or Gurdurr (the former being an amazing partner for Belly Drum, as it greatly aids in setup and smashes Rhydon and Steelix)
Slurpuff should also run a Jolly nature to outspeed Scarf Pyroar, it's definetly worth it, and the power loss isn't too notable if you can prevent yourself from being revenge killed.
I can't be bothered making a long post right now, but basically, since Slurpuff has one super threatening set (Belly Drum) that you have to assume it is or you get swept, a set which takes advatage of this (offensive Calm Mind) and further two sets (defensive Calm Mind and defensive support) that can work better on certain teams depending on how they're built and what they need, Slurpuff is to me the definition of an S rank Pokemon, and pretty much the king of the tier.
Regarding Liepard, Slurpuff simply won't set up while Liepard is in play, and Liepard plays a dangerous game in coming in if not after a kill, as it's instantly KOd by a Fairy STAB. Otherwise you can switch on the completely obvious Encore into a Pokemon that's unimpressed by Liepard, such as Pangoro or Gurdurr (the former being an amazing partner for Belly Drum, as it greatly aids in setup and smashes Rhydon and Steelix)
Slurpuff should also run a Jolly nature to outspeed Scarf Pyroar, it's definetly worth it, and the power loss isn't too notable if you can prevent yourself from being revenge killed.
I can't be bothered making a long post right now, but basically, since Slurpuff has one super threatening set (Belly Drum) that you have to assume it is or you get swept, a set which takes advatage of this (offensive Calm Mind) and further two sets (defensive Calm Mind and defensive support) that can work better on certain teams depending on how they're built and what they need, Slurpuff is to me the definition of an S rank Pokemon, and pretty much the king of the tier.
I don't think you're using Slurpuff in the best way. Firstly, in terms of being burned / paralyzed, you do know that Slurpuff can run Substitute, right? Especially since Return and Play Rough are enough for Slurpuff to sweep with, and Substitute is pretty much the best option for a final moveslot. As for the calcs, Slurpuff shouldn't attempt to sweep until those mons are weakened or removed; it's a cleaner, so it's going to be backed up by entry hazards and its teammates will be paving the way for it to sweep. Once its counters are weakened, Slurpuff is really hard to stop, and it really takes just one turn to sweep. The Calm Mind set is a possibility too, and that can weaken the BD counters, so Slurpuff is quite versatile as a sweeper, with Flamethrower to nail Vileplume and the like, and they also excel at weakening physically defensive Pokemon for things like Swellow to sweep. Slurpuff is definitely a top threat in the tier and is an easy candidate for S, it's such a great sweeper and every team needs at least two checks; else you wish to lose.
And btw, an S Rank Pokemon does not have to be unbeatable; it just has to be dominant in the metagame, and Slurpuff is in fact just that.
Seconding this Its been alot harder to use it lately without just flat out loosing to any variant of slurpuff.
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