Resource XY NU Viability Ranking

[Davon]

It may be versatile and whatnot, but it's very frail and can be dispatched of by quite a few pkmn.
Some examples:

Gurdurr @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Mach Punch
- Drain Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

Most of the time is able to afford an Eviolite being knocked off because Gurdurr has decent bulk anyway.

Granbull @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Play Rough
- Earthquake
- Heal Bell
- Thunder Wave

Intimidate makes Shiftry useless against Granbull unless Leaf Storm.

Slurpuff @ Sitrus Berry
Ability: Unburden
EVs: 200 Speed / 252 SAtk / 52 HP
Modest Nature
- Calm Mind
- Draining Kiss
- Flamethrower
- Psychic

Knock Off that berry, activate Unburden. gg.

The thing is however those are all checks to the physical version. Once people start realizing the nasty plot demolishes its physical set's checks, people will begin running nasty plot. Here are calcs after shiftry gets a nasty plot up:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 406-478 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Giga Drain vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 316-372 (99.3 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

 

[jake]

xzern

using the mix LO set, which should be "standard":

Shiftry @ LO | 252 Atk + 4 SpA | Leaf Storm / Knock Off / Sucker Punch / Defog​

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 71-86 (18.9 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gurdurr: 286-339 (76.4 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

While Gurdurr is a check, it can't seriously switch in more than once against a well-played Shiftry (or if it got Evio knocked off previously).

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 251-296 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

Same here - if Shiftry has SR support, this is very near a guaranteed OHKO unless you get absolute minimum rolls both times. This is the spread you gave - fully physically defensive fares a little better (15.6% to 18.2% from Knock Off), but still gets bopped if it has -ANY- prior damage.

0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 107-126 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

If they chose to not Knock Off first, RIP Slurpuff.

e: ok this is a better pseudo-check than i thought, silly me forgetting sitrus here. regardless, it still takes a buttload...

All of these you listed are solid answers to SD Shiftry variants and there are a few others, such as Vileplume, but all of them get cleaned by NP variants and as demonstrated here, tend to struggle with mixed sets. There are no absolute counters to Shiftry, with your best and most consistent answers being faster Pokemon that resist Sucker Punch (which are in short supply) or Pokemon with Substitute that can OHKO Shiftry if you win the mindgame war.



This is why I personally feel that Shiftry deserves S Rank: While checks and counters exist for individual sets, Shiftry is a very versatile and powerful Pokemon that can be adapted to whichever team. There are very few Pokemon that are capable of both sweeping (SD sets) and wallbreaking (mixed and NP sets) while also having the ability to support the team (Defog). Between its versatility, power, and general lack of flaws (reliance on Sucker Punch to handle faster Pokemon and general frailty are the only two real flaws), I think Shiftry perfectly fits the S Rank description.

Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Will respond to other posts tomorrow.

 

[Quite Quiet]

The thing is however those are all checks to the physical version. Once people start realizing the nasty plot demolishes its physical set's checks, people will begin running nasty plot. Here are calcs after shiftry gets a nasty plot up:

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 406-478 (108.5 - 127.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Giga Drain vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 372-438 (96.8 - 114%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

+2 252 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Giga Drain vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 316-372 (99.3 - 116.9%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Nasty Plot is in my opinion the worst set Shiftry can run though. You miss out on Knock Off and Sucker Punch (or get an weak uninvested one if you run it) most notably, which means that everything over the 80 speed mark will be able to revenge kill it without problems at all, something the physical version doesn't have an issue with. And there's no question that there are more mons that break 80 speed than those that check the physical version reliably. Not to mention with the pure special set you can't even fit defog on without missing out on important coverage.

I won't deny how good Shiftry is versus pretty much any match up, something that can't be said for many other things on this list. But I don't think the special set is what would push it to S. It is quite honestly a very generic offensive threat. Putting pressure on it to not remove hazards is not that hard, anything faster than it will right away put it in a situation where removing hazards will take it out. So will anything that isn't killed by any move it runs, a list that is very long.

Frankly that the only real problem I have with Shiftry. The mixed set has no way to boost it's power, the SD and NP set miss out on coverage if they want to defog and running defog means you miss out on coverage/boosting move no matter the set. So no matter what Shiftry runs, there will always be a lot of things out there that easily check it either through speed or sheer bulk.

If anything it's the unpredictability that Shiftry carry that should get it to S, because at the start of every game nothing is certain. It puts massive amounts of pressure on the opponent before the set is revealed. It's not before then anything of the above is relevant, and by then it might be too late. It got checks yes, but as long as it can play unpredictable it's very possible to work around those checks and still do what it needs to do.

Also AV Hariyama takes on every Shiftry set too well gdi :[

 

[jake]

Also AV Hariyama takes on every Shiftry set too well gdi :[

lies n slander

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 143-168 (29 - 34.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hariyama: 251-296 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

that's a double min of 80%, and a double max of 94.2%, which is a fair chance of OHKOing after a layer of Spikes or some slight damage. less than 50% there, but i don't really think that's favorable enough to say it takes on shiftry too well

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 469-554 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

also there's this.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 390-460 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also that too, similar to the mixed rolls.

e: pardon my calcs if they're silly i just used the standard spread listed in the calculator, give me a better one o_o

 

[g]

I agree with Shiftry being moved up to S Rank. Its Swords Dance set is terrifying for any balanced team as nothing switches into it as even Granbull and the mighty Torkoal (lol) are switfly 2HKOed leaving 252/252+ Steelix as the only reliable answer. Its access to priority lets it sweep against offense frequently too ( +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Primeape: 234-277 (86 - 101.8%) even resisances crumble to +2 Sucker Punch) and it is not terribly difficult to setup with Water types around that most of the time can only hope for a Scald burn. Grass is such a great offensive typing in this tier as the bulkiest physical walls like Poliwrath and Rhydon are weak to it. The mixed set takes a dump on common checks like the aforementioned Steelix and Granbull and the calcs Zebraiken has posted above furtherly prove my point. Of course it can be revenge killed and Gurdurr is an awesome check but is forced to take a ton of damage in the process and is murdered by special sets with Extrasensory. Shiftry also has access to defog which is really useful for balanced teams (i'd never use it on offensive teams as SD has an awesome sweeping potential and loves entry hazards support) while scaring off Defiant Primeape and lolPurugly with the threat of a STAB move.

Also AV Hariyama takes on every Shiftry set too well gdi :[

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Seed Bomb vs. 8 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 469-554 (108.8 - 128.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Hariyama is not safe :o

EDIT: Ninja'd

 

[xzern]

xzern

using the mix LO set, which should be "standard":

Shiftry @ LO | 252 Atk + 4 SpA | Leaf Storm / Knock Off / Sucker Punch / Defog​

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 71-86 (18.9 - 22.9%) -- possible 5HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gurdurr: 286-339 (76.4 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO​

While Gurdurr is a check, it can't seriously switch in more than once against a well-played Shiftry (or if it got Evio knocked off previously).

-1 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Granbull: 79-94 (20.5 - 24.4%) -- possible 6HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Granbull: 251-296 (65.3 - 77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery​

Same here - if Shiftry has SR support, this is very near a guaranteed OHKO unless you get absolute minimum rolls both times. This is the spread you gave - fully physically defensive fares a little better (15.6% to 18.2% from Knock Off), but still gets bopped if it has -ANY- prior damage.

0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 56 HP / 0 SpD Slurpuff: 211-250 (66.1 - 78.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 56 HP / 0 Def Slurpuff: 107-126 (33.5 - 39.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO​

If they chose to not Knock Off first, RIP Slurpuff.

e: ok this is a better pseudo-check than i thought, silly me forgetting sitrus here. regardless, it still takes a buttload...

All of these you listed are solid answers to SD Shiftry variants and there are a few others, such as Vileplume, but all of them get cleaned by NP variants and as demonstrated here, tend to struggle with mixed sets. There are no absolute counters to Shiftry, with your best and most consistent answers being faster Pokemon that resist Sucker Punch (which are in short supply) or Pokemon with Substitute that can OHKO Shiftry if you win the mindgame war.



This is why I personally feel that Shiftry deserves S Rank: While checks and counters exist for individual sets, Shiftry is a very versatile and powerful Pokemon that can be adapted to whichever team. There are very few Pokemon that are capable of both sweeping (SD sets) and wallbreaking (mixed and NP sets) while also having the ability to support the team (Defog). Between its versatility, power, and general lack of flaws (reliance on Sucker Punch to handle faster Pokemon and general frailty are the only two real flaws), I think Shiftry perfectly fits the S Rank description.



Will respond to other posts tomorrow.

Mr. Mime @ Assault Vest
Ability: Filter
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Psyshock
- Dazzling Gleam
- Energy Ball
- Charge Beam

this guy can counter shiftry but not really i'm just posting it because yolo

252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 4- SpD Shiftry: 366-432 (114 - 134.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 243-289 (109.4 - 130.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

pretend you didnt see that

but on a serious note

Sawk (M) @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Close Combat
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch
- Earthquake

scarf sawk outspeeds shiftry like everything else that isnt shuckle and doesnt care about sucker punch
is also common somewhat
252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Sawk: 90-107 (30.8 - 36.6%) -- 63.2% chance to 3HKO

 

[Quite Quiet]

lies n slander

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 143-168 (29 - 34.1%) -- 2.3% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Hariyama: 251-296 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

that's a double min of 80%, and a double max of 94.2%, which is a fair chance of OHKOing after a layer of Spikes or some slight damage. less than 50% there, but i don't really think that's favorable enough to say it takes on shiftry too well

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Seed Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 469-554 (95.3 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

also there's this.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 390-460 (79.2 - 93.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

also that too, similar to the mixed rolls.

e: pardon my calcs if they're silly i just used the standard spread listed in the calculator, give me a better one o_o

The better spread is 4 HP /252 Sdef, it puts the calcs to something more like

252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 143-168 (33.2 - 39%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO
0 SpA Life Orb Shiftry Leaf Storm vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Hariyama: 179-212 (41.6 - 49.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Double max rolls does 4% less damage and double min rolls is 5% less. Not much but it is much more favorable vs spikes.

+2 252+ SpA Life Orb Shiftry Extrasensory vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Hariyama: 278-330 (64.6 - 76.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

I'll give you the SD sets takes it out easy ehough, but it doesn't fear an ohko from anything with rocks except that.

 

[Ropeburn]

I'd also vouche for moving Shiftry up to S rank. Seriously, just because it has checks and counters doesn't mean it's not still an incredibly versatile pokemon in the NU metagame. People are acting like it's really difficult to deal with bulky fighting types when you've got Spiritomb to deal with these pokemon while also being extremely powerful. Swords Dance is an excellent powerhouse, Mix LO always puts in great work, and Nasty Plot is unexpected and very powerful.

Also, I'd like to see what people think of Raichu and Haunter, as I've been experimenting with them lately and they both seem to be very good for just being C rank.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

I honestly think Shiftry is just fine in A+. Let's not exaggerate about its versatility: it can be an offensive Defogger or a Swords Dance sweeper, but never both. Why are people suddenly claiming Shiftry is unpredictable?? Nasty Plot Shiftry is just an immense waste of potential, not worth bringing up and massively outclassed by the SD variant. Sounds harsh maybe, but let's not make up terrible sets to make a pokemon seem unpredictable/versatile lol. Shiftry can Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Leaf Storm and that's it. As long as you keep those attacking moves in mind you're fine. Let's not forget that Shiftry has a lot of weaknesses and non-existant bulk. Generally you're not setting up SD's without forcing something out, and Shiftry is just not fast or strong enough to accomplish this consistently. It's good, but not S rank worthy.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

I honestly think Shiftry is just fine in A+. Let's not exaggerate about its versatility: it can be an offensive Defogger or a Swords Dance sweeper, but never both. Why are people suddenly claiming Shiftry is unpredictable?? Nasty Plot Shiftry is just an immense waste of potential, not worth bringing up and massively outclassed by the SD variant. Sounds harsh maybe, but let's not make up terrible sets to make a pokemon seem unpredictable/versatile lol. Shiftry can Knock Off, Sucker Punch, Leaf Storm and that's it. As long as you keep those attacking moves in mind you're fine. Let's not forget that Shiftry has a lot of weaknesses and non-existant bulk. Generally you're not setting up SD's without forcing something out, and Shiftry is just not fast or strong enough to accomplish this consistently. It's good, but not S rank worthy.

Nasty Plot Shiftry is worth a lot more than you're giving it credit for here. NP Shiftry is used for largely the same reason people run Specs Swellow. People generally assume it's going to be physically based, so they switch into their physical wall just to be set up on and 2HKOed at worst.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Nasty Plot Shiftry is worth a lot more than you're giving it credit for here. NP Shiftry is used for largely the same reason people run Specs Swellow. People generally assume it's going to be physically based, so they switch into their physical wall just to be set up on and 2HKOed at worst.

But Specs Swellow is awful, and so is Nasty Plot Shiftry. Best case scenario you get one surprise kill. That's not viable, that's what we call a gimmick. Don't use gimmicks as an argument to put a pokemon in a higher rank, especially when it is S rank, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

But Specs Swellow is awful, and so is Nasty Plot Shiftry. Best case scenario you get one surprise kill. That's not viable, that's what we call a gimmick. Don't use gimmicks as an argument to put a pokemon in a higher rank, especially when it is S rank, that's all I'm saying.

Can you actually give a legitimate reason why NP is bad before you full on bash it as unviable? You're just kinda shitting on a set for no reason

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Can you actually give a legitimate reason why NP is bad before you full on bash it as unviable? You're just kinda shitting on a set for no reason

Uhm, because Swords Dance Shiftry is much better because of a much better STAB move (Knock Off) and strong priority (Sucker Punch). NP Shiftry will maybe get you one kill if you're able to setup (pretty much useless otherwise), then you're prone to getting revenged by anything faster because you lack priority. Non-NP Shiftry (basically every Shiftry set that's not terrible) can also spam Knock Off without having to setup and revenges faster threats with Sucker Punch, while NP Shiftry has to make do with weak STAB moves and Extrasensory. There's a reason why everybody runs the good Shiftry sets and nobody even talks about NP, let alone use it .-. People only bring up NP because Shiftry learns it and it makes it seem versatile, so they can argue it for S rank.

I think Shiftry belongs in A+, but if you're going to argue it for S rank, then at least don't bring up gimmicks. I'll respect everyone's opinion, but you have to bring acceptable arguments too. I'm not bashing anything, but you have to stay serious when talking about competitive sets lol. Just because a pokemon can use a certain moveset, doesn't mean it's a good idea. You won't see anyone bringing up DD Latios to get it to move up either (different tier, but it's the same as bringing up NP Shiftry when SD is a million times better and more viable). It's just a poor way of arguing.

 

[SPACE FORCE meeps]

nasty plot shiftry is hardly a gimmick (at least mixed nasty plot with sucker punch) considering i used it with great success and the team got #1 on the ladder (not like ladder means much but still). a lot of common top tier pokemon have a weakness to grass (feraligatr, seismitoad, rhydon, omastar, barbarcle, etc, quite a few pokemon) so pretty much any variant of shiftry can deal with the aforementioned pokemon quite easily. extrasensory on nasty plot sets is really useful allowing it to lure in pokemon such as vileplume, gurdurr, weezing, etc which generally check shiftry while shiftry can nasty plot on the switch (really easy to setup on common pokemon like seismitoad and rhydon which were previously mentioned). giga drain is also helpful as well. granbull may also be lured in and ohko'd by +2 giga drain. sucker punch even with minimal investment is still doing some damage to some of the more frail pokemon that don't resist it (it's rather helpful given the more offensive nature of the tier). so ya just because you haven't seen or used a set doesn't necessarily make it unviable or a gimmick.

also xzern, it's rather obvious scarf sawk will beat shiftry, and that can't really be argued for why shiftry should not be s rank considering any top tier threat is harmed by a faster pokemon with a stab super effective move or powerful super effective move overall (even sigilyph which was s rank before it was banned was ohko by specs typholosion or scarf typhlosion with full health, or thunderbolt from any rotom form, even sucker punch from shiftry). sawk is generally used to revenge kill shiftry (like the pokemon listed that outspeed and ohko sigilyph) meaning shiftry has ko'd another pokemon, the only other way sawk can be brought in safely is by volt switching on a shiftry switch and then bringing in sawk. sawk cannot effectively switch in as leaf storm + sucker punch is enough to ko sawk without sawk being able to do much to shiftry.

 

[psVoltage]

Don't have anything new to post about the topic, so collectively I'm agreeing that Shiftry pretty much is the defenition of S Rank.

S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Defog set btw is pretty great, but other then mixed it can go multiple setup sets and you could probably do band or specs and be just fine. Pretty versatile.

 

[xzern]

so xzern, it's rather obvious scarf sawk will beat shiftry, and that can't really be argued for why shiftry should not be s rank considering any top tier threat is harmed by a faster pokemon with a stab super effective move or powerful super effective move overall (even sigilyph which was s rank before it was banned was ohko by specs typholosion or scarf typhlosion with full health, or thunderbolt from any rotom form, even sucker punch from shiftry). sawk is generally used to revenge kill shiftry (like the pokemon listed that outspeed and ohko sigilyph) meaning shiftry has ko'd another pokemon, the only other way sawk can be brought in safely is by volt switching on a shiftry switch and then bringing in sawk. sawk cannot effectively switch in as leaf storm + sucker punch is enough to ko sawk without sawk being able to do much to shiftry.

logic game too stronk. you guys are right, so i'll agree with shiftry for S rank because:

Don't have anything new to post about the topic, so collectively I'm agreeing that Shiftry pretty much is the defenition of S Rank.

S Rank:
Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths.

Defog set btw is pretty great, but other then mixed it can go multiple setup sets and you could probably do band or specs and be just fine. Pretty versatile.

he's right here, when most of the meta is weak to grass or dark, shiftry can create free turns and support other teammates with defog.

 

[z0mOG]

Nominating Scyther for B+
Scyther is a fast, powerful pokemon with a nice offensive typing. It's dual stab can get past some top tier threats like Shiftry, Vileplume, and Sawk. It also has very usable bulk with an eviolite. Swords Dance sweeping is also very possible because of good speed and priority in quick attack. And Technician to boost all of these moves. Very strong pokemon overall.

 

[mertyville]

Like Excadrill in the higher tier, Shifty creates offensive pressure and creating momentum to Defog or just to spam that Knock Off.
While its bulk is not really the best for a boosting set, those free turns can come in favor for a Swords Dance/Nasty Plot nontheless.

The most successful set I have seen was the mixed offensive defog set. While Shifty does not boost the best special attack, Leaf Storm is pretty nasty move to go for, even without investment, thanks being a 130 power move.
Faster threats still would think twice before attacking or they will run into a Sucker Punch and might get KOed.

Overall what makes Shifty S Rank worthy is great coverage consisting Grass, Fighting, Dark from both attacking sides, good speed (insane in sun), high offense (both can be boosted through NP/Growth/SD), Defog, Knock Off, Priority making it pretty easy to fit into a team and, not nessecary difficult to switch into, but the opposing player has to expect being punished for switching in anything at all (Knock Off = Losing important item, getting hit by coverage and later die to priority or being outspeed, free boost and OHKOed, switching in a physical wall just to realise it being a special attacker etc)

 

[jake]

Gothorita from C to B
Metang from unlisted to D
Monferno from unlisted to D
Raichu from C+ to B-
Scyther from B to B-
Shiftry from A+ to S
Stunfisk from D to C+
Zebstrika from D to C+

not convinced on: Sceptile from A to A+, Pidgeot from unlisted to C-

When I felt an argument was not particularly compelling but agreed with the general sentiment to move it up or down, I moved it anyway but not to the tier that was suggested. Implementing these now! n_n

Again, if you disagree with any of these changes, feel free to debate any/all of them and I'll back up my own reasoning and/or discuss with you about 'em.

 

[Ares]

I would like to nominate Combusken for A- Over the past day or so I was trying out a team I had a while back using Combusken as baton pass support. And let me tell you how easy it is to get up a Swords Dance and one speed boost, pass out into something powerful and slightly bulky, and sweep. I wasn't even playing that well, and the team I was using had some pretty big issues with some things, and I was still able to quite easily click swords dance the click baton pass and sweep.

The reason I am going with A - is because I feel like Combusken fits it just as much as Gorebyss does. Its able to take multiple hits with its eviolite and to get up at least one Swords Dance and pass out. And if they are able to take out your sweeper you can go back into Combusken and do it again (unlike Gorebyss who relies on white herb to negate the defense drops). It is also important to note that Combusken can also run a bulk up variant that will ensure the recipient of the pass can take more hits, I havent tested out bulk up yet so I dont know how well it works). Combusken can also set up on various things forcing switches into something that can take on a fire/fighting type. I usually Swords Dance on the switch and then baton pass into something they are prepared to handle. There are some things holding Combusken back though, chief among them are Liepard and Roar/Whirlwind.

A poke I've noticed Combusken partners well with is Gothorita, using Combusken as a pivot you can immediately baton pass on the switch and go out into Gothorita to trap something that counters/checks your sweeper. One thing to note is that you want to be passing your Swords dances out into something that has decent bulk as they will be taking a hit on the switch, and possibly more from priority. I was passing a swords dance (or two) out into Kangaskhan and it was able to do some work. The reason I was passing out in to Kang was because it not only had the raw power to OHKO things at +2, it also had the bulk to take multiple hits (as evident in my match with blaziken).

Tournament Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-137910327 vs Blaziken1337
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-137912466 vs woohoo972
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-137922647 vs How To Play NU?
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/nubeta-137924946 vs VulpineHeroine

 

[Zibbity]

I'm no expert at this but the D rank list is certainly overcrowded. And since DELIBIRD is under that rank, I don't see why Torkoal, Avalugg, Carbink, and Relicanth could not be ranked higher due to their utility, bulk, and offensive capabilities. Are they outclassed that much? Are Torkoal and Avalugg that much of a hinderance? They both can take multiple physical hits. Carbink gets Sturdy and functions like a Shuckle but with Duel Screens. Relicanth can hit hard with a recoil free Head Smash. Not sure about the other D ranked Pokemon. In fact, I think Pikachu should be D ranked only because some players will use it ignoring its obvious flaws and the fact it's not something to switch into thoughtlessly with its Light Ball boosted attacks.

 

[scorpdestroyer]

I'm no expert at this but the D rank list is certainly overcrowded. And since DELIBIRD is under that rank, I don't see why Torkoal, Avalugg, Carbink, and Relicanth could not be ranked higher due to their utility, bulk, and offensive capabilities. Are they outclassed? Are Torkoal and Avalugg that much of a hinderance? They both can take multiple physical hits. Carbink gets Sturdy and gets Duel Screen and functions like a Shuckle. Relicanth can hit hard with a recoil free Head Smash. Not sure about the other D ranked Pokemon. In fact, I think Pikachu should be D ranked only because some players will use it ignoring its obvious flaws and the fact it's not something to switch into thoughtlessly with its Light Ball boosted attacks.

Delibird probably shouldn't be in D but I guess it can set Spikes and spin??

Those things shouldn't move up imo. Torkoal and Avalugg are outclassed as Rapid Spinners because they both have a SR weakness and the inability to get past spinblockers unlike the better spinners in our tier. Also while they both can take physical hits they crumble to most special hits, even neutral ones, and they don't have much other positive traits to overcome these, unlike Cryogonal whose high Speed and offensive presence allows it to spin reliably.

Carbink can set Stealth Rock + Dual Screens but that is firstly a very niche role, and secondly Carbink is mostly dead weight outside of that; it fails to threaten anything and is prone to getting set up on (doesn't even have Encore like Shuckle) and while its defenses are good, its HP lets it down and it will still get 2-3HKOed easily especially without recovery. Plus the low Speed means that most other Dual Screeners can do its job, especially Uxie which has higher Speed, better bulk and typing, and cool stuff like Memento, U-turn, etc

Relicanth is quite outclassed by Carracosta as a defensive Water/Rock Pokemon. Recoil free Head Smash is nice but that isn't a huge niche at all; I don't go thinking "wow my team really needs a recoil free Head Smash, let's go with Relicanth". Its boosting options are outclassed by Barbaracle and Carracosta for offensive sets too.

As for Pikachu, it is horribly frail and its Speed is below average. Electivire and Raichu do similar things but a lot better and can also hold other items to increase their power / versatility.

Anyways like someone mentioned before we probably shouldn't be focusing on the D tier too much since they all suck.

 

[jake]

I'd be okay with moving Combusken up, but I'm also interested in a second opinion.

I'm no expert at this but the D rank list is certainly overcrowded. And since DELIBIRD is under that rank, I don't see why Torkoal, Avalugg, Carbink, and Relicanth could not be ranked higher due to their utility, bulk, and offensive capabilities. Are they outclassed that much? Are Torkoal and Avalugg that much of a hinderance? They both can take multiple physical hits. Carbink gets Sturdy and functions like a Shuckle but with Duel Screens. Relicanth can hit hard with a recoil free Head Smash. Not sure about the other D ranked Pokemon. In fact, I think Pikachu should be D ranked only because some players will use it ignoring its obvious flaws and the fact it's not something to switch into thoughtlessly with its Light Ball boosted attacks.

We'll split them into D+, D, and D- when the time comes (ie when I say so). Most if not all of these Pokemon are very nearly hindrances on your team or have very very niche roles, including some of the ones you've mentioned. Some will go up, some will go down, but it currently only looks overcrowded because we haven't split it up yet, which we will do eventually.

Delibird has an unique set with Destiny Bond / Spikes / Rapid Spin, which no other Pokemon in the tier can do. It's not completely horrible, but that set in particular is enough of a niche to merit a spot in D rank.

 

[Quite Quiet]

I'm no expert at this but the D rank list is certainly overcrowded. And since DELIBIRD is under that rank, I don't see why Torkoal, Avalugg, Carbink, and Relicanth could not be ranked higher due to their utility, bulk, and offensive capabilities. Are they outclassed that much? Are Torkoal and Avalugg that much of a hinderance? They both can take multiple physical hits. Carbink gets Sturdy and functions like a Shuckle but with Duel Screens. Relicanth can hit hard with a recoil free Head Smash. Not sure about the other D ranked Pokemon. In fact, I think Pikachu should be D ranked only because some players will use it ignoring its obvious flaws and the fact it's not something to switch into thoughtlessly with its Light Ball boosted attacks.

As a person who personally doubted Delibirds viability at all, went ahead and tested it. While it isn't as impressive as nearly everything else on the list, it provided relatively consistent spikes and usually got rid of a free mon from my opponents team, often without having any hazards on my side afterwards. It's small and niche but it sure did a better job at supporting the team than Wigglytuff and Avalugg have done for me in the past.


On a side note, what exactly does Vullaby bring that Togetic doesn't that merit them having the same rank? They both get defog and roost and both abuse eviolite to gain bulk. Togetic 4x resist fighting, have an arguably better defensive typing, get better mixed bulk and can pass NP boosts. Vullaby on the other hand have STAB foul play, resist ghost and can switch into sleep powder, but it got less bulk and fewer useful resists. Maybe I'm missing something, but I honestly can't see what makes Vullaby and Togetic equal.

About bulk

252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 152-180 (44.1 - 52.3%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sawk Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 140-166 (44.5 - 52.8%) -- 25.4% chance to 2HKO

252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Vullaby: 260-307 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Magmortar Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Togetic: 177-208 (56.3 - 66.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
They're just examples on the difference in bulk with similar EV spreads.

 

[Peef Rimgar]

Ok if Wigglytuff gets into D-Rank due to competitive, Pawniard should at least be C- due to Defiant. Defiant lets it get a free +2 against some of the common Defoggers that either can't touch it or are terrified of it's STABs. With excellent hazard stackers like Omastar and Accelgor in the tier,Pawniard can succeed with relative ease.

Reserving for replays when I can be bothered to build a team