Question 3 there bugs me. No, I don't want to fight weak trainers, I'm not Nemona. Let them get better first so it's a fair fight, neither of us gets anything out of me stomping them.
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- Thread starter antemortem
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The counterargument against that is that by battling a weak trainer you're doing them a favour, because it's a learning experience for them and you can show them how to get better. That's how the games usually frame it, anyway. One could also posit that it's an exercise in moderation for you, the tougher trainer, if you're intentionally easing up and giving them a chance to win rather than just steamrollering over them but really it's more for the less capable person's benefit. In Clair's case specifically, she's a gym leader and a clan chieftain who has a responsibility (and practical interest) in ensuring that her students and underlings are capable battlers; it doesn't really speak highly of her leadership skills or her clan's reputation if everyone but her is pathetically weak. We see that other gyms do also encourage their trainers to keep improving; there's a Lass in Whitney's gym who mentions that she's tried repeatedly to defeat her.
If you follow the line of thinking that gym leaders scale their teams for each individual trainer, then it's literally in their job description to accept a challenge from anyone (we'll ignore Norman saying "there's no challenge for me to fight a greenhorn trainer" but I think that's less about him outright refusing to fight a weak trainer and more about him specifically wanting you, his child, to grow).
There's also the attitude the game implies your answer gives - by saying "I only want to battle tough people" you're suggesting that only they are worthy of your time, whereas saying "I only want to battle weak people" implies you just want to dominate everyone with minimal effort. By saying "anyone" you're expressing that you're a fair person who'll give everyone your time and consideration, and are willing to be friends with anyone. It's a decent moral, as they go.
I'd also say that I'm not a huge fan of the wording change to question 1 in HGSS. While 'underling' has clear ideas of superiority, 'junior' feels like it might brush up too close to a teaching context. It's called a Trainer after all, and there's going to be some amount of EVs and TM usage before a mon you just met in the grass reaches full potential.
Yeah that's a weird one. "Junior" has always felt vaguely affectionate to me so doesn't instantly signal the contempt or detachment that "underling" does. Though I think that changing "raising" to "training" feels more sensible.
HGSS makes some other weird scripting choices, I've always thought the English localisation was a bit... iffy, to put it mildly.
Given Nemona was brought up, isn't this literally what her goal as your rival is? She brings up training a new team specifically to pace herself alongside you until you become a Champion that she can challenge on equal terms.
I think as far as that question goes, the idea is that if you only want to fight Strong Trainers, you look like early DP Paul saying "you're worthless and not worth my time" to people like Ash, while only challenging Weak Trainers makes you look like a coward who wants to win more than self-improve.
I think this is particularly contentious with Megas and Evolutions because they serve as progress/a cap for the Pokemon in at least that original incarnation, compared to split evolutions like Gallade or Regional forms being variations that co-exist with them. So while I disagree with several cases, I get why someone would dislike something like a Mega Audino or Bisharp evolving to Kingambit because it suggests that many general buffs/QoL improvements like Signature moves, stat tweaks, etc. will be focused on that form instead of the one they prefer to play as, which you could kind of see with something like Blastoise only getting the much-appreciated Shell Smash after its Mega form got Dexited (since Mega Launcher would make its Coverage way stronger as a Sweeper like that).
Dudunsparce I want to note feels like a case of a joke most people get, but your reception depends on how funny you found it. Dunsparce has always felt like a mon where the joke is, good or not, it's deliberately boring and simple, so the Evolution being extremely basic feels like a progression of that. The thing there is that the joke is based on how the franchise regards or acts with Dunsparce moreso than being directly apparent in its design for a simple evo like, say, Tandemaus/Maushold.
Both buffing the Pokémon and giving it’s higher-power-level state like an evolution or Mega Evolution would be a great compromise, though it has to be handled carefully.
I also want to add that buffing a Pokémon with weak BST when they are not supposed to be powerful to begin with isn’t going to respect the lore. It will be hard to take seriously a Luvdisc having the same BST of a Torkoal since Luvdisc isn’t supposed to be even a decent battling Pokémon to begin with. In this case, unless they already reached the third stage of their evolutionary line, I’m all for giving them an evolution.
Late to the Karen party, but I think the intent is she's making a jab at Silver specifically for being a shitheel the entire game. He's been on the same journey as you and it's entirely possible they met. Curious as to what the Japanese script is like there.
Alternatively, since she only makes her famous quip after losing, she's just being salty.
Alternatively, since she only makes her famous quip after losing, she's just being salty.
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Decided to check, the localization is completely faithful about the lines in question. I thought as much, the localizations tend to be pretty faithful from what I have compared with.
Personally, I love that they gave it an evolution, it desperately needed one, but I feel like they should have done something more then just going ‘Here’s Dunsparce but we copy-pasted the body one or two times more.’ They wouldn’t even have to do much I feel, just make the segments into a proper snake body instead of something that’ll get me suspended if I say it, give it bigger wings, and there you go. Would have still be simple sure but it at least would have looked a little neater.
Dunsparce was perfect just the way it was and did not need an evolution, but Dudunsparce was the best thing that could have come from a Dunsparce evolution. Fuck trying to "fix" Dunsparce's humble appearance, just have the evolution be two Dunsparces clipping into each other.
With the bonus special form of THREE !
Honestly, the whole Dudunsparce is just a genius move.
It's just "more Dunsparce". Perfection.
I would love to see Showdown on the Switch that utilizes your Pokémon in Home and items on your save files. Don’t know how it would work without getting independent game journalists angry.
More on the lines of "it would get in legal problems so big that a lifetime jail sentence wouldnt be enough"
K so I'm also late to the Karen party because I diverted to a different topic but fuck it: I never really read her as a hypocrite and I think that to do so is kind of a wild reach.
From the context of what she says, it's clear that she's talking about "strong" and "weak" as objective qualities; i.e. what the vast majority of people consider strong or weak. It's a call not to follow the crowd, and that's how I've seen most people interpret it over the years. And she's praising you for beating her so the unspoken implication is that you live up to her ideal: "Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favourites".
It may well be a jab at Silver, who throughout his arc seems to prioritise catching Pokemon he already considers strong. But it works more broadly as a general statement.
Her saying that Dark types are strong is fine because they're her favourites (leaving aside the fact that she only uses three - you can argue game balance, but there's a lore reason that works alongside her lack of a Tyranitar: perhaps it's simply not her favourite. Personally, I've always liked that she uses Vileplume, I think it's an underused Pokemon in general). To provide an analogy, if I were to state that a particular man/woman is attractive, most well-adjusted people wouldn't take that as me authoritatively stating that "everyone finds this woman/man beautiful". It's me announcing my preference, and trusting that whoever I say it to is secure enough not to start arguing with me (yes, some people will insist that beauty is objective but they're morons and safely ignored).
From the context of what she says, it's clear that she's talking about "strong" and "weak" as objective qualities; i.e. what the vast majority of people consider strong or weak. It's a call not to follow the crowd, and that's how I've seen most people interpret it over the years. And she's praising you for beating her so the unspoken implication is that you live up to her ideal: "Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favourites".
It may well be a jab at Silver, who throughout his arc seems to prioritise catching Pokemon he already considers strong. But it works more broadly as a general statement.
Her saying that Dark types are strong is fine because they're her favourites (leaving aside the fact that she only uses three - you can argue game balance, but there's a lore reason that works alongside her lack of a Tyranitar: perhaps it's simply not her favourite. Personally, I've always liked that she uses Vileplume, I think it's an underused Pokemon in general). To provide an analogy, if I were to state that a particular man/woman is attractive, most well-adjusted people wouldn't take that as me authoritatively stating that "everyone finds this woman/man beautiful". It's me announcing my preference, and trusting that whoever I say it to is secure enough not to start arguing with me (yes, some people will insist that beauty is objective but they're morons and safely ignored).
Are we aware of Nintendo’s recent shenanigans?
You mean the part where they got a certain mr Bowser to pay 30% of his earnings to them for the rest of his life?
Nintendo will *not* let people use their stuff, let alone Pokemon. Whatever deals they may have with Showdown, if any, these aren't public knowledge but they've not allowed anyone that isn't GameFreaks or directly linked to GameFreaks (aka, ILCA) to connect in any way to their games since gamecube era, to the point that the even virtual console version of Stadium cannot connect to Home.
I think the idea that Stadium would be able to connect to home is an unrealistic and dumb wish-fufillment idea. The first two gens work so different internally from Gen III onwards that the "transfer" from the virtual console games to Bank is less of an actual transfer and more of it creating as close to a duplicate as possible using later gen mechanics while simultaneously deleting the original version of that Pokemon. The idea of converting Pokemon from Home into ones that could function in either stadium game is just not possible without wasting a lot of time and resources, especially due to how different DVs and Stat Experience are to IVs and EVs, not to mention stuff like moves from later gens and other such things.
The only way I could ever see any sort of external connectivity is if they added the Gameboy Pokemon titles for the Switch Online service.
She refers to Dark type Pokémon being strong as part of why she loves them, and the rest of her intro dialogue reads as pretty arrogant. Like seriously.
"I am Karen of the ELITE FOUR. You're (player name)? How amusing. I love dark-type Pokemon. I find their wild, tough image to be so appealing. And they're so strong. Think you can take them? Just try to entertain me. Let's go."
She's just oozing pride and arrogance in the strength of her Dark type Pokémon. Her line after defeat doesn't sound anything like the same person. Her liking Dark type Pokémon doesn't make it okay to take this haughty attitude about how strong they are.
That's something all Elite Four and Gym Leaders do, though. Boasting about your power in an attempt to intimidate your foe has been an accepted part of human conflict for... well, for pretty much all of human history actually, but there's countless examples in GSC alone of other bosses doing it (emphasis my own).
"WAHAHAH! So you've come this far! Let me tell you, I'm tough! My Pokémon will crush stones and shatter bones! Watch this! Urggh! ... Oooarrgh! There! Scared now, are you? What? It has nothing to do with Pokémon? That's true! Come on. We shall do battle!"
"I am Clair. The world's best dragon master. I can hold my own against even the Pokémon League's Elite Four. Do you still want to take me on? ...Fine. Let's do it! As a trainer, I will use my full power against any opponent!"
"Wow, it's not often that we get a challenger from Johto. I'm Brock, the Pewter Gym Leader. I'm an expert on Rock-type Pokémon. My Pokémon are impervious to most physical attacks. You'll have a hard time inflicting any damage. Come on!"
"Hey, little tyke! I have to hand it to you. It may not be very smart to challenge me, but it takes guts! When it comes to electric Pokémon, I'm number one! I've never lost on the battlefield. I'll zap you just like I did my enemies in war!"
"Yo! Finally got here, huh? I wasn't in the mood at Cinnabar, but now I'm ready to battle you. … You're telling me you conquered all the Gyms in Johto? Heh! Johto's Gyms must be pretty pathetic then. Hey, don't worry about it. I'll know if you are good or not by battling you right now. Ready, Johto Champ?"
"Welcome to Pokémon League, <player>. Allow me to introduce myself. I am Will. I have trained all around the world, making my psychic Pokémon powerful. And, at last, I've been accepted into the Elite Four. I can only keep getting better! Losing is not an option!"
"I am Bruno of the Elite Four. I always train to the extreme because I believe in our potential. That is how we became strong. Can you withstand our power? Hm? I see no fear in you. You look determined. Perfect for battle! Ready, <player>? You will bow down to our overwhelming power! Hoo hah!"
Falkner's quote even alludes to the fact that people routinely banter about specific Pokemon types being weak or strong, so he feels compelled to defend their honour:
People say you can clip Flying-type Pokémon's wings with a jolt of electricity... I won't allow such insults to bird Pokémon!
It doesn't necessarily invalidate her stance to say both things. As I said, her opening remark is her stating her belief in the power of Dark-type Pokemon and challenging the player to try and defeat her - it's literally "I think that Dark-type Pokemon are powerful; if you disagree, prove me wrong."
And when you do... she acknowledges that, and says that she likes your style. In general, a lot of Gym Leaders and Elite Four are like this in earlier gens: brash and confrontational when you challenge them, and grudgingly respectful once you win. Even the nicer ones tend to say things like "don't get cocky just because you beat me, you're still not as hot as you might think". Even if she still thinks Dark-types are the best, she's admitting her respect for you winning with a (presumably) balanced team.
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My counter argument is that you can see a distinction in several of these lines between when the characters are gassing up their own ability (Chuck, Will, Bruno, Falkner, and even Clair ironically enough) vs specifically trying to undermine yours in the pre-battle boasting (Lt. Surge, Blue, and Karen as some are discussing). The latter are in 2 cases coming from characters who are generally depicted as arrogant and not particularly approachable/polite in most multimedia depictions of the that timeframe in-universe, be it them or counterparts like Blue-Gary (and Blue still acknowledges you as a Champ and basically says "maybe the Gyms suck, but I'll let you speak for yourself in battle" which suggests he's trying to push your buttons to get a harder fight). Karen talking a big game before the battle is in character, but she's specifically talking in a way that brushes off your ability despite getting to where you are.
"My Pokemon are so tough. Think you can take me on? Just try to entertain me" in most other contexts is used to denote a character who assumes they'll win for sure and is mostly hoping they have to put in an amusing amount of effort (you see a lot of this with arrogant Shonen villains like Frieza in Dragon Ball, or even just joke memes like UI Shaggy). Karen's line would make much more sense to me coming from someone like Bruno, whose pre-battle quote is still very much a "this is how I view strength, show me how you do" kind of spiel.
I think the part I take umbrage with is some of the word choices muddying the sentiment. Pokemon being "strong or weak" is not just down to perception, even within context there is a clear discrepancy between the ability of several Pokemon to battle, such that many clearly are better at avoiding conflict or alluded to multiple times in the dex as fighting dirty or hiding/being weak from informational sources. Some Pokemon simply are not meant for battling by depiction, so it doesn't make one a skilled trainer to try pushing them into something they're not suited for rather than playing to what they are capable of. This also can depend retroactively on if "Trainer" refers specifically to just anyone who partners with Pokemon or specifically Battlers (as opposed to Coordinators, Breeders, people Employed with them, Performers, etc.), though I won't harp on this too much for Gen 2.
Besides that, "truly skilled" is another word I don't like, because as many a strawman takedown will show, it gives this impression that using the best performing Pokemon instead of a mish-mash of Pokemon you like, ability or synergy be damned, takes less skill as a trainer. It's a subject you can't escape when looking at competitive where stuff like CHALK or Restricted Centralization happens in VGC, or Smogon OU is centered heavily around whatever Ground or Ghost mon of a given gen. Trying to use your favorites doesn't indicate skill unless you can take them far competing with others, and if you have multiple favorites, what happens if they don't compete well together; A lot of my favorites include stuff like Toxicroak, Chandelure, Tinkaton, and Bisharp/Kingambit. Is it skillful to use a bunch of them knowing I'll crumple to basically anything with Earthquake? And does this mean I'm more skilled for finding teammates to help my otherwise troubled favorites, or that I should be trying to make this disparate-battling team of Mons I like work anyway?
I'd harp on this a lot less if the word had been something like "dedicated" or "devoted" for the trainer, as it is a better reflection of trainers who try to make a few favorite mons work as compared to those who try to find the most effective battle strategies first. Suggesting it's a matter of skill rings a bit hollow coming from main-game as well because putting aside my gripes about difficulty or AI, you can count the battles that you can't just Unga-through with neutral/SE moves on one hand in any given game (Misty's Starmie, Whitney's infamous Miltank or Morty's Gengar, Lenora's Watchog, Totem Mimikyu, etc), so this isn't a context where using your favorites over the "best" stuff takes significantly more skill or effort unless the player is totally unfamiliar with Pokemon's basic mechanics.
You forgot Point Crow. I grew up with Nintendo and still enjoy their products but I can’t help but feel like a burden. I’m against piracy but it’s difficult to enjoy myself.
Slight over analysis I feel.
If you've seen my previous posts, that tends to be my brand if it goes more than 2 lines. I stand by the part about "Bragging about themselves vs Belittling your team" for the pre-battle lines though.
The key difference between Karen and all the other NPCs mentioned is that she specifically says she loves Dark types because they're strong. That isn't boasting of her own Pokemon's strength or her ability as a trainer, but that she likes Dark types because they're strong by nature. For her to go on to say that thinking of Pokémon in terms of weak or strong is selfish is absolutely hypocritical. She says skilled trainers should fight with Pokémon they like, and the Pokémon she likes, she likes because they're strong.