Sword & Shield Battle Mechanics Research

[Anubis]

Kris asked:
If an Aegislash doesn't have Stance Change, it doesn't switch into Blade Forme when attacking. (currently handled correctly, I believe)

On the topic of Primal weather, can you override Primal weather with Max moves (ie Max Geyser in Delta Stream?)

- Max Geyser fails in the presence of Desolate Land (attack fizzles out).
- Max Geyser doesn't set weather afterwards if Delta Stream is in play.

Steely Spirit stacks with Steely Spirit in doubles. (This supports the 3 cat + 1 dog raid strategy.)
At level 50, using max attack Adamant 252 Att Steely Spirit Perrserker with Choice Band:
- 1 Perrserker using Iron Head (120 BP) takes 71 Def Dynamax Wobbuffet to 294/564 HP from full (270 damage).
- With 2 Steely Spirit Perrserker on the field, a single Iron Head (180 BP) takes the same Wobbuffet down to 138/564 HP from full (426 damage).

Considering that Steely Spirit gives the exact same boost Steelworker does, and at the same time applies it to allies... was Steelworker buffed to affect allies as well?

Steelworker stacks with Steely Spirit, but doesn't affect partner.
Vs the same target:
- Anchor Shot with Steelworker alone did 99 damage.
- Anchor Shot with 2 Steelworker on same side did 101 damage.
- Anchor Shot with partner Steely Spirit did 153 damage.

----

GMars posed the possibility that Grav Apple does more damage under Gravity. After some testing, this does seem to be the case.
At level 50, Appletun with 108 Att using Grav Apple on Wobbuffet with 71 Def should get these damage rolls:
Possible damage amounts: (69, 70, 70, 72, 72, 73, 75, 75, 76, 76, 78, 78, 79, 79, 81, 82)

I hit 79 and 81 damage without Gravity.
However, I got these damages under Gravity: 108, 114, 105, 120, 123, 103, 108, 115, 121, 108, 114, 105

Predicted damage for 1.5x Attack or Base Power: 103, 105, 106, 108, 108, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 115, 117, 118, 120, 121, 123
A 1.5x multiplier to Damage would predict: 105, 108, 108, 109, 109, 112, 112, 114, 117, 117, 118, 118, 121, 121, 123, 126
This seemed to suggest either a 1.5x multiplier to Base Power or Attack since the 103 and 120 would be incompatible with a damage multiplier.

At level 50, Appletun with 109 Att using Grav Apple on Wobbuffet with 71 Def was able to hit 124 damage:
Predicted damage for 1.5x Attack: 103, 105, 106, 108, 108, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 115, 117, 118, 120, 121, 123
Predicted damage for 1.5x Base Power: 105, 106, 108, 109, 109, 111, 112, 114, 115, 117, 117, 118, 120, 121, 123, 124

I conclude that Grav Apple has a 1.5x Base Power multiplier under Gravity, which makes it 120 BP.

 

[DaWoblefet]

More host mechanics bugs! SadisticMystic asked me to test some unusual Stalwart mechanics he was told in passing, and unusual they are! When a Stalwart Pokemon is Instructed to use some attack, it can exhibit bizarre behavior, including targeting the wrong Pokemon, failing completely, or even targeting its ally using Instruct!

At the moment, the best explanation that Anubis and I have been able to come up with is that Stalwart is attempting to attack the host's "first" Pokemon. That is, it will target whatever Pokemon was selected as first in Team Preview by the host. In Generation 7 at least, the Pokemon that was considered to be "first" on the field was whoever threw out their Pokemon first, which was the non-host, and the left slot was considered "more first" than the right slot. If our theory is correct, host mechanics have changed so that the host is now considered the Pokemon to put their Pokemon on the field first (note that this is purely an internal notation; it always shows the opponent throwing out their Pokemon first). So when:

• Instructed Stalwart Brick Break failed, it was because it was attempting to self-target Duraludon itself, since that was the first Pokemon on the field;
• Instructed Stalwart Brick Break targeted Oranguru, it was because it was Oranguru was the first Pokemon on the field;
• Instructed Stalwart Brick Break targeted Cinderace when the original target was not Cinderace, it was because Cinderace was the first Pokemon on the field
• Instructed Stalwart Brick Break worked correctly, it was because the original target was also the first Pokemon, or else the first Pokemon had been removed from the field

This explanation was only arrived at after considering the tests in the video, so more tests will be needed to lock this in as the definitive answer for what's going on. Zaggyo notes in passing that he experienced a failure with Sleep Talk calling Snipe Shot, so I imagine similar results can be generated for Instruct + Snipe Shot, Instruct + Propeller Tail, and Sleep Talk + Stalwart or Sleep Talk + Propeller Tail.

As you can see from the video, this isn't a bug with Instruct itself; Braviary is able to correctly target the slot it should be targeting, regardless of whether or not the Braviary player was the host.

Other mechanics gleaned by happenstance from testing these interactions:

• If Ally Switch is used as an ally uses a 2-turn move (like Solar Beam), Ally Switching on the following turn will cause Solar Beam to hit the ally. That is, double Ally Switch + self-targeted 2-turn move will not fail. This solidifies our understanding of Ally Switch + side target failing as "attempting to target itself with its own move".
• When Solar Beam attacks an ally, it will not play the "gathering sunlight" animation, which reveals that the intended target is the ally. If the partner has fainted, the Solar Beam charging animation still plays.

*******EDIT*******
Further testing reveals that Propeller Tail and Snipe Shot exhibit identical behavior to Stalwart with respect to Instruct. I can confirm that the "redirects to host's first Pokemon" explanation is the correct one.

In addition, further testing with Zaggyo's note of a failure with Sleep Talk + Snipe Shot is explored in the above video. It turns out that this one isn't a host mechanic; Sleep Talk + Snipe Shot will always fail in doubles play; in addition, Sleep Talk + Stalwart / Propeller Tail + single-target move will also always fail in doubles play. In singles, Sleep Talk + those conditions will not cause the move to fail. This is probably related in some way to Sleep Talk picking a random opponent for the target of its move. I did try timing out into Snipe Shot and it worked just fine then (timing out into a single target move targets a random opponent as well).

 

[DragonWhale]

Falinks is able to switch out after using No Retreat if it's holding a Shed Shell.

It does not affect future use of No Retreat. Falinks can come back in and use the move again.

 

[Siggu]

Falinks is able to switch out after using No Retreat if it's holding a Shed Shell.

It does not affect future use of No Retreat. Falinks can come back in and use the move again.

Can it reuse No Retreat if it's under a trapping effect (such as Mean Look, as it was already shown to happen) while holding a Shed Shell?

 

[Galarian Meloetta]

On the topic of No Retreat, can it be used with every trapping effect, or are there only specific trapping effects that work?

Do ally trapping effects work in doubles? Could be a fun gimmick.

Edit: Fixed up the post a bit.

 

[Rarycaris]

I can confirm that the "redirects to host's first Pokemon" explanation is the correct one.

It seems safe to assume that this has the same root cause as that weird Sucker Punch glitch that cares about the host's first Pokemon.

 

[probationsmack]

Falinks is able to switch out after using No Retreat if it's holding a Shed Shell.

It does not affect future use of No Retreat. Falinks can come back in and use the move again.

If dreadnaw has trapped an opponent with jaw lock can he switch out with Shed shell?

 

[MattL]

Given that terrains boost the power of their respective types by only 30% now, it seems reasonable to ask if rain and sun only boost the power of theirs by 30% as well. The question was asked by others earlier in the thread, but no posts seem to have answered it yet.

The work the researchers have done here is really appreciated, by the way. These threads are always the most interesting and important ones of the new generations.

Sorry to bring this up yet again, but the above post from P Mystery still applies. I apologize that I'm unable to contribute to this research myself, but if the rain and sun boosts (optional testing: rock moves in sandstorm and ice moves in hail) could be confirmed, that would be very appreciated as SPL is coming up soon and rain is a prominent archetype in SS OU. If the rain boost is only 30%, that would definitely have a non-trivial impact on the metagame. Thanks!

 

[Ironmage]

More host mechanics bugs!

In other words, this seems like the duty of 'remembering' which slot the original move targeted is a property of Instruct, not the pokemon using the move. A hypothetical process for this result could be:
1: Instruct activates, causing target to use a move and attempts to force that move to target the slot used the first time
2: Stalwart, etc. block the target forcing, causing the move to have no specified target
3: A failsafe activates, which causes moves with no target to target the first (internal) slot
(4: move fails due to pokemon attempting to attack itself)

For sleep talk, I notice that it does have a 'default' target, with the UI having the user select Sleep Talk on themselves before any move is called. I'm wondering if the redirect immunity prevents that from changing to a random opponent. This then causes the move to fail due to the attempt at self-damage. Metronome is in a similar situation, though I recognize the difficulty in experimenting on it. Unfortunately Nature Power, which has a non-self starting target despite calling moves, no longer exists and cannot be tested for comparison.

 

[Cinaclov]

Do we know if Shield Dust protects against the secondary effects of Dynamax moves? That's both the stat reducing moves and status effects (eg; G-Max Befuddle)? I imagine not but it'd be good to know for certain.

 

[Anubis]

Teatime's activation order is:
1) Teatime user
2) Teatime user's ally
3) Opponent's left Pokemon
4) Opponent's right Pokemon
Changing the position of the Pokemon on either side doesn't change this order, and it is not Speed-dependent at all. Host does not matter either. It's always Teatime user first.

I went and tested every in-game berry to see if Teatime will eat it. (Whew!)

Berries that are eaten by Teatime

Cheri
Chesto
Pecha
Rawst
Aspear
Leppa
Oran
Persim
Lum
Sitrus
Figy
Wiki
Mago
Aguav
Iapapa
Occa
Passho
Wacan
Rindo
Yache
Chople
Kebia
Shuca
Coba
Payapa
Tanga
Charti
Kasib
Haban
Colbur
Babiri
Chilan
Liechi (raised Att while mon was at full HP)
Ganlon (raised Def while mon was at full HP)
Salac (raised Spe while mon was at full HP)
Petaya (raised SpA while mon was at full HP)
Apicot (raised SpD while mon was at full HP)
Lansat (raised critical hit rate while mon was at full HP)
Starf (raised a stat by 2 while mon was at full HP)
Enigma
Micle (boosts accuracy of next move at full HP)
Custap
Jaboca
Rowap
Roseli
Kee (raises Def whlie mon was at full HP)
Maranga (raised SpD while mon was at full HP)

If I didn't write anything, I saw no obvious changes.

Berries that are not eaten by Teatime

Pomeg
Kelpsy
Qualot
Hondew
Grepa
Tamato

Just confirming that Dynamax Cannon is also a 2x damage modifier, not a base power or SpA modifier:
At level 50, 177 SpA Eternatus Dynamax Cannon vs 78 SpD Wobbuffet hits the max of 302 damage.
Predicted damage for SpA/BP modifier: 255, 258, 261, 264, 267, 270, 273, 276, 279, 282, 285, 288, 291, 294, 297, 301
Predicted damage for damage modifier: 254, 258, 260, 264, 266, 270, 272, 276, 278, 282, 284, 288, 290, 294, 296, 302

Did anyone ever test using After You or Instruct to cause a "fast" skill swap of Stall, to see if that works the same way as same-turn Lagging Tail Trick (i.e. not at all)?

Skill Swapping Stall to another Pokemon does not make it move later.

Do we know if Shield Dust protects against the secondary effects of Dynamax moves? That's both the stat reducing moves and status effects (eg; G-Max Befuddle)? I imagine not but it'd be good to know for certain.

It doesn't stop the extra effects from Max Darkness, Max Mindstorm, or G-Max Befuddle.

Sorry to bring this up yet again, but the above post from P Mystery still applies. I apologize that I'm unable to contribute to this research myself, but if the rain and sun boosts (optional testing: rock moves in sandstorm and ice moves in hail) could be confirmed, that would be very appreciated as SPL is coming up soon and rain is a prominent archetype in SS OU. If the rain boost is only 30%, that would definitely have a non-trivial impact on the metagame. Thanks!

Current damage formulas for weather boosts/nerfs still seem to apply.

Damages

At level 50:
147 SpA Ribombee Ember vs 100 SpD Butterfree did 48 damage.
Possible damage amounts: (44, 46, 46, 46, 48, 48, 48, 48, 50, 50, 50, 50, 52, 52, 52, 54)
147 SpA Ribombee Water Gun vs 100 SpD Butterfree did 22, 26 damage.
Possible damage amounts: (22, 23, 23, 23, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 26, 26, 26, 27)

In Rain:
147 SpA Ribombee Water Gun vs 100 SpD Butterfree did 34 damage.
Possible damage amounts: (34, 34, 34, 35, 35, 36, 36, 36, 37, 37, 38, 38, 38, 39, 39, 40)

In Sun:
147 SpA Ribombee Ember vs 100 SpD Butterfree did 80 damage.
Possible damage amounts: (68, 68, 68, 70, 70, 72, 72, 72, 74, 74, 76, 76, 76, 78, 78, 80)
147 SpA Ribombee Water Gun vs 100 SpD Butterfree did 11 damage.
Possible damage amounts: (11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 11, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

[16:33:48] ~The Immortal: does screens duration reset when court changed
[16:33:57] &Anubis: idk
[16:34:00] ~The Immortal: presumably not but ps does that

Screens duration stays the same after Court Change rather than resetting.

Videos for Skill Swapping Stall, Max Moves vs Shield Dust, and Court Change: https://imgur.com/a/aVMNUqY

 

[FIQ]

Basically the same list as Bug Bite.

Does eaten Custap get an one-time Quick Claw-style boost similar to Micle? Does the Micle one-time boost persist across turns if the berry holder already used a move that turn (and if so, does this also apply to Custap)?

 

[sumwun]

Did SwSh remove any held items (or make them unobtainable), other than mega stones, Z-crystals, items that have no effect when held in battle, or items that have an effect in battle only when held by a removed Pokemon (blue orb, for example)? The normal gem is the only obtainable one of the type gems, right?

 

[Worldie]

Did SwSh remove any held items (or make them unobtainable), other than mega stones, Z-crystals, items that have no effect when held in battle, or items that have an effect in battle only when held by a removed Pokemon (blue orb, for example)? The normal gem is the only obtainable one of the type gems, right?

The Data for items that were available in gen 7 (bar megas/Z) is also in gen 8, though the absence of certain pokemon like Primals makes it impossible to check if they actually work.

Normal gem is still the only gem obtainable.

 

[sumwun]

The Data for items that were available in gen 7 (bar megas/Z) is also in gen 8,

So if they're all coded into the game, how many of them are unobtainable? (like how fairy gems were coded into all generations 6 and 7 games but never obtainable)

 

[R_N]

So if they're all coded into the game, how many of them are unobtainable? (like how fairy gems were coded into all generations 6 and 7 games but never obtainable)

I was curious myself so referencing *deep breath* all of the items on the itemdex on serebii:
-Mega Stones
-Z Crystals
-Roto Powers
-Held items that do something to specific pokemon no longer in the game like the Lucky Punch, Adamant Orb and so forth
-Related to above, but if an item only evolved a pokemon, like the Dubious Disc or Electrizer, that isn't in the game, then you can't get those either. Things like the Metal Coat & King's Rock still are, however.
-The one exception (that I saw) to the above is the Razor Fang (Gliscor's evolution item) which is not available in SWSH despite having a secondary effect
-All typed gems aside from Normal
-All of Arceus' plates e: Except Pixie. I'm noting these separately since they did have a standard use aside from Arceus itself.
-The contest scarves
-Old Gataeu (bit shocking considering even the Let's Go-added Pewter Crunchies are available)
-Sacred Ash
-Exp Share
-The Ribbon & Star sweets
-Park, Safari (Doesn't safari keep getting used by trainers? I wonder why they dont just give it to you), Sport & Cherish balls
-Belue, Bluk, Cornn, Custap, Durin, Enigma, Golden Nanab, Golden Pinap, Golden Razz, Jaboca, Magost, Micle, Nanab, Nomel, Pamtree, Papaya (wait what?), Pinap, Rabuta, Razz, Rowap, Silver Nanab, Silver Pinap, Silver Razz, Spelon, Watmel, & Wepear berries
-Let's Go's pokemon candies and ev candies
-All of the old fossils
-All mail
-All Mulch, flutes, apricorns, shards, lures
-Beach Glass, Chalky Stone, Common Stone, Gold Leaf, etc...these are those items your partner can find in Let's Go
-Discount Coupon (remember these things? They gave out like...one, total, and only in XY.)
-Festival Ticket
-Fluffy Tail
-Heart Scale
-Pass Orbs
-All of those high-price Relic Items (which randomly had their description updated from "3000" to "three thousand"
-Shoal Salt, Shells
-Slowpoke Tail (strictly speaking, never obtainable in any game outside of gen 2, but it was made & described in HGSS so...)
-Strange Souvenir

And an assortment of key items but those are fairly cut & dry. A number of these, like some of the berries, the 2 sweets, and such will probably be given as event fodder.

 

[doipy hooves]

Pixie Plate is available from the bargain seller and Old Gateau from a restaurant guy.

 

[sumwun]

I was curious myself so referencing *deep breath* all of the items on the itemdex on serebii:
-Mega Stones
-Z Crystals
-Roto Powers
-Held items that do something to specific pokemon no longer in the game like the Lucky Punch, Adamant Orb and so forth
-Related to above, but if an item only evolved a pokemon, like the Dubious Disc or Electrizer, that isn't in the game, then you can't get those either. Things like the Metal Coat & King's Rock still are, however.
-The one exception (that I saw) to the above is the Razor Fang (Gliscor's evolution item) which is not available in SWSH despite having a secondary effect
-All typed gems aside from Normal
-All of Arceus' plates e: Except Pixie. I'm noting these separately since they did have a standard use aside from Arceus itself.
-The contest scarves
-Old Gataeu (bit shocking considering even the Let's Go-added Pewter Crunchies are available)
-Sacred Ash
-Exp Share
-The Ribbon & Star sweets
-Park, Safari (Doesn't safari keep getting used by trainers? I wonder why they dont just give it to you), Sport & Cherish balls
-Belue, Bluk, Cornn, Custap, Durin, Enigma, Golden Nanab, Golden Pinap, Golden Razz, Jaboca, Magost, Micle, Nanab, Nomel, Pamtree, Papaya (wait what?), Pinap, Rabuta, Razz, Rowap, Silver Nanab, Silver Pinap, Silver Razz, Spelon, Watmel, & Wepear berries
-Let's Go's pokemon candies and ev candies
-All of the old fossils
-All mail
-All Mulch, flutes, apricorns, shards, lures
-Beach Glass, Chalky Stone, Common Stone, Gold Leaf, etc...these are those items your partner can find in Let's Go
-Discount Coupon (remember these things? They gave out like...one, total, and only in XY.)
-Festival Ticket
-Fluffy Tail
-Heart Scale
-Pass Orbs
-All of those high-price Relic Items (which randomly had their description updated from "3000" to "three thousand"
-Shoal Salt, Shells
-Slowpoke Tail (strictly speaking, never obtainable in any game outside of gen 2, but it was made & described in HGSS so...)
-Strange Souvenir

And an assortment of key items but those are fairly cut & dry. A number of these, like some of the berries, the 2 sweets, and such will probably be given as event fodder.

Plates and razor fangs (and mega stones and Z-crystals and the species-specific items) are the only ones that have an effect when held in competitive battles, right?
Edit: Custap and Enigma berries are also removed items with in-battle effects.

 

[R_N]

Plates and razor fangs (and mega stones and Z-crystals and the species-specific items) are the only ones that have an effect when held in competitive battles, right?

And the Papaya berry if that's really not in the game (I have to think that's jsut an oversight on Serebii & Bulbapedia's part, maybe they're in individual berry tree listings)

Otherwise yeah, everything else is just money fodder or in-game use and most of the latter cuts are just made redundant.

 

[Moutemoute]

Just would like to know something.
If I understand, Body Press isn't boosted by CB / Huste but what about the burn ? Since Body Press take in account the defense and not the attack, it shouldn't affect Body Press damages output right ?

 

[Siggu]

Just would like to know something.
If I understand, Body Press isn't boosted by CB / Huste but what about the burn ? Since Body Press take in account the defense and not the attack, it shouldn't affect Body Press damages output right ?

It does, because burn affects damage, not Attack.

 

[urkerab]

Just would like to know something.
If I understand, Body Press isn't boosted by CB / Huste but what about the burn ? Since Body Press take in account the defense and not the attack, it shouldn't affect Body Press damages output right ?

Actually I think all effects that boost Physical moves work on Body Press, despite it using the Def instead of the Atk stat.

 

[Worldie]

Actually I think all effects that boost Physical moves work on Body Press, despite it using the Def instead of the Atk stat.

It's supposedly a comparable effect to Foul Play (as in, it's a phisical attack but not using your attack stat).
So effects that change your attack don't work, but effects that change your phisical damage do.
(es, having Tough Claw should boost it if it's a contact move, but Huge Power wouldn't)

 

[SadisticMystic]

When you're using Foul Play, the opponent having Huge Power does not increase the damage of the move, but if you have that ability it does, even as Huge Power has its effect on the attack stat in isolation, not total damage. Essentially, for moves whose effect is to substitute something else for the attack stat, the way they work is that you look at the raw stat in question and any boosts (like +2), but after that point you lock it in to say "I am going to pretend that number is really what's in the attack stat column," and proceed with the rest of the damage formula as usual, using that modified number as one of the inputs. Any items or abilities that create modifiers on the user's attack stat, other than stat boosts, will successfully increase the damage even on these substituted-stat moves; items or abilities that affect other stats, including the one ostensibly being substituted in, do not get noticed.

 

[doipy hooves]

Plates and razor fangs (and mega stones and Z-crystals and the species-specific items) are the only ones that have an effect when held in competitive battles, right?

Incidentally someone recently stole a Razor Fang within the Battle Tower, and turns out it has a placeholder sprite. Probably still works, but doesn't look like it'll be freed without an update or something.
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/259372-pokemon-sword/78291906

screenshot

There's actually a Razor Fang sprite from the datamines, with the new white outline and all. Not a battle mechanic but I wonder if it gets flagged online, or if other unreleased items do have a sprite and could be released via event as of now.