SV UU Suspect Process Round 9 - Five Nights at Freddy's

[Lily]

har har
​

Hey everyone, to the shock of likely nobody that's paid attention to tournament play in the past few weeks, we're looking into Ursaluna today.

I'll keep this short because everyone knows what Ursaluna does: it gets in, it clicks Facade, it kills something, and then it dies to burn and Rocky Helmet. If this were all it did nobody would really be complaining, sure it'll obliterate a fat team every once in a while but for the most part it was widely considered to just be a decent Pokemon and nothing too special. It also had a Bulk Up set that was good but fishy and could run into significant issues with its counters like Hydrapple and it was hard to find setup turns against common nuclear threats like Latios, Greninja, and Ogerpon-C. Even when it got boosted, it would usually have too little HP to do much and it'd end up dying before it could sweep.

All this changed with just a few modifications to its Tera type and coverage. Dropping Body Slam for Ice Punch made Hydrapple quiver in fear while also giving Ursaluna a way to still deal significant damage to Tera Ghost Levitate Pokemon; Drain Punch also shuts down any (Tera) Steel-types looking to absorb Earthquake with an Air Balloon or Levitate and heals Ursaluna back to crazy amounts of HP. The overall lower power level of the tier in recent times has led to Ursaluna's bulk really flexing its stuff, with some particularly funny Tera interactions. The Bulk Up set has taken over the metagame and started causing enormous issues for anything that's not hyper offense, and a lot of players are just left scratching their heads about what they can do about it.

Ursaluna received huge support for a ban among the WCoP playerbase, and the council feels it's time to put it on the chopping block given its recent performances. While the gain of Serperior is noteworthy for its ability to tank Earthquake and threaten Ursaluna heavily, it still doesn't really do much damage against a Tera'd Ursaluna and it takes a ton from Ice Punch, so it has not proven itself a particularly formidable check.

--

The voting requirements are a minimum GXE of 78 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may play 1 less game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 78 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 82. As always, needing more than 50 games to 78 GXE is fine.

minimum games needed

GXE	minimum games
78	50
78.2	49
78.4	48
78.6	47
78.8	46
79	45
79.2	44
79.4	43
79.6	42
79.8	41
80	40
80.2	39
80.4	38
80.6	37
80.8	36
81	35
81.2	34
81.4	33
81.6	32
81.8	31
82	30

The test will operate as always. There will be no suspect ladder. Instead, the standard UU ladder will remain open. Those who wish to participate in this suspect test will instead use a fresh, suspect-specific alt. All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! UU ladder on a fresh alt with the following format: "UU9FNAF (Nick)." For example, I might register the alt UU9FNAF Lily to ladder with. You must meet the listed format in order to qualify.

Participants will have until Sunday, July 21st at 7:00 PM GMT -4 to meet voting requirements and post in the Alt Identification Thread. PLEASE DO NOT POST YOUR CONFIRMED SUSPECT RESULTS HERE - there is a dedicated thread for identifying your suspect results. Happy laddering!

 

[udongirl]

I would not be surprised if it was banned, but I support not banning it.
First of all, ursaluna has no counter except sinistcha, and that was no exception even back when it was ranked B-. I used to think that such pokemon generally met the requirements for banning, but that didn't seem to be the case at the time, and the community has accepted luna because it is easy to revenge.
And I don't think that has changed; hydrapple can't check it without sacrificing one pokemon because it is slower than ursaluna and dies twice facade to begin with, and since ice punch can be avoided with tera, it is not possible to beat hydrapple 100% of the time. Bu also invests most of its EV in defense to take care of its not-so-great defensive type, so it usually dies when exposed to powerful attacks multiple times. The outburst of bu luna in the link is due to slowking's use of scald in plain sight of it, which is not appropriate for a spirit.
I don't think any pokemon should be banned because I think UU in its current state is the best position in terms of both diversity and balance.

 

[Petros]

the community has accepted luna because it is easy to revenge.

this is very funny, cause the whole reason why this thing's getting suspected is that bulkier luna is very hard to revenge, especially while it has the chance to defensively tera.

 

[Lizzie]

The ursaluna revolution and its consequences have been a disaster for the uu playerbase. Not gonna write a manifesto on it but I think bulk up is broken and flame orb has kinda messed with the dynamics of the tier a lot, you're already pressured to run variance heavy moves in this tier and flame orb becoming more common as people have become better at using it has started to condense games more, with every turn being charged enough that the effect of variance becomes more and more important. Idt banning it particularly fixes this but it makes it slightly better. Ban the bear

 

[Mossy Sandwich]

I mostly agree with the post above, not much has changed about Ursaluna when it comes to how the metagame deals with it since we got it, but people have just gotten better about using it, including Flame Orb. A lot of people consider balance to be borderline unviable in this metagame, but I think the tools to use it are good enough. While Ursaluna isn't the only problem for these teams, it definitely applies a ridiculous amount of pressure to them, mostly due to its bulk compared to other wallbreakers. There are other pokemon that are threatening to bulkier teams, but most of them are much frailer (and generally also easier to wall if you resist one of their STAB) and when you consider that Luna is also much more common and easy to use than mons like Crawdaunt, it makes finding consistency with bulkier teams very difficult. People have also gotten more efficient with their use of defensive tera on Flame Orb Luna to trade more efficiently and pick up 2-3 kills reliably. I don't think Flame Orb is broken still, offensive teams can generally manage it fine, but I feel like it's been getting in the way of team diversity which is not what you want to see.

BU Luna is pretty ridiculous though because it stat-checks the vast majority of the tier while shrugging off one of the most common way to cripple setup sweepers, status. Burn is great for limiting how dangerous other BU users such as Okidogi can be and Toxic can put threats on a timer which is nice as well, but against Ursaluna, those are just gonna make it tear through your team more quickly. If you don't status it, you still somehow have to keep in check a mon with 400HP, high SpDef and constantly increasing physical bulk that can also 2HKO the majority of the tier at +1. You have a few options to keep it in check such as Encore or Phazing, but those are either on mons that already don't like switching into Luna or that are otherwise too niche to be reliable. Of course, its health pool is limited, so eventually you'll take it down, but preventing it from taking out half of your team in the process is kinda ridiculous. I think it'd do the tier a lot of good to get rid of Luna.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Luna is DNB worthy... even with BU you are often times just able to pressure it and most mons can do it.... for BU to actually function late game at all against most teams it usually hogs tera to itself so if forcing smth else to tera works at some point (because every game is diff and u may need tera at some point) this makes luna infinitely easier to deal with. Flame orb sets often times have to play risky to get in and your counterplay to it is similar to how you would deal with other mons that can take advantage of ur slow pokemon ... u just dont really let that happen, smth like cb ttar, daunt in past gens, CB azu, hoopa-u, etc show that it is way easier to just play around it if you dont give the opponent free "pls come in" turns

Even with tera you often times have to have no backup answer at all.. even smth like def zapdos can spam hurricanes into it, cobalion can usually scout a tera considering how odd it would be normally to be brought in and the punishment for being to cocky and not tera while eating a cc is prob very big. Even with tera into consideration there are many mons that can generally screw with it... for ex. gren, luster latios, mamoswine, encore tink / ogerpon, rotom-w, tera dirge, stuff like serperior also do well, focus blast torn-t, dragon tail rhyperior, helmet mons can often times accumulate a lot of chip on it

BU luna is its better set but like ofc if u give smth tera + turns to be able to work around smth it is easily able to take advantage of those turns. For ex. dogi setting up on smth like slowking is way in favor of that dogi esp if it has tera in its pocket to do stuff with, i would say its much harder to check a dogi that is getting out of control than a BU luna considering how our few special attackers just get owned by tera which while luna can do that to... most teams carry mons that can just firce it to tera or for it to suck it up. and u can take advantage of it after the fact

Saying balance is borderline unviable but yet uubd still shows teams being run that are very close to balance or balance offense show that its just a big exaggeration.

 

[Moyashi]

for BU to actually function late game at all against most teams it usually hogs tera to itself so if forcing smth else to tera works at some point (because every game is diff and u may need tera at some point) this makes luna infinitely easier to deal with.

Luna isnt just a late game Pokémon and can just as effectively take over a mid game in certain situations. It’s also not exactly true that it needs Tera to even attempt late game shenanigans, but that Tera tends to make dealing with it in those circumstances more difficult than usual.

> Flame orb sets often times have to play risky to get in and your counterplay to it is similar to how you would deal with other mons that can take advantage of ur slow pokemon ...

It’s been pointed out elsewhere in this thread but people have in general gotten better at piloting flame orb sets, and it’s not uncommon to see it get 2 kills minimum, and more if Tera is used. Of course it’s not the broken set in question here, but you’re dismissing flame orb sets effectiveness in a modern time.

Even with tera you often times have to have no backup answer at all.. even smth like def zapdos can spam hurricanes into it, cobalion can usually scout a tera considering how odd it would be normally to be brought in and the punishment for being to cocky and not tera while eating a cc is prob very big.

What even is this argument. Zap has to rely on inaccurate hurricanes back to back, while +1 ice punch is a 2HKO. Coba meanwhile isn’t switching comfortably in due to the threat of EQ and can’t even KO a healthy Luna at +1 with CC, while the defensive drop actually lets +1 Drain Punch drop Coba.

BU luna is its better set but like ofc if u give smth tera + turns to be able to work around smth it is easily able to take advantage of those turns.

Give Tera to something and they can turn set up opportunities from something normally threatening it? Sure. But this doesn’t apply in equal measure to all abuses and Luna stands above as an excellent abuser because it isn’t just Tera, but its natural power and set of quality that Tera elevates further.

 

[udongirl]

smth like cb ttar, daunt in past gens, CB azu, hoopa-u, etc show that it is way easier to just play around it if you dont give the opponent free "pls come in" turns

Please stop comparing luna to other wallbreakers because it is misled into thinking that players who support DNB don't understand Tier. there is no Pokémon that is harder to counter than luna even in OU, and if you even take bulk into account, the wallbreakers you mentioned are a far more vulnerable and ineffective pokemon.

 

[ihbst]

I've gotta say that I think I know what does make ursaluna much more powerful than in OU. There is an extreme amount of pivot pokemon in the UU tier, that enable ursaluna to come in and destroy anything slower than it. There is cobalion, mandibuzz, tornadus, zapdos, slowking, rotomwash, pecharunt, and thats only defensive pivots. Compare that to the OU tier, where there is corviknight landorus, slowking galarian, sometimes gliscor, and maybe dragapult? But there are clearly way more in UU. Combined with scizor, lokix, two extremely powerful offensive pivots that force stuff out, ursaluna often finds its way in a very good position. And once it is in, it is extremely hard to stop it offensively and defensively; it has huge natural bulk, and teralyzes out of would-be weaknesses.

At least for me, the punishment for allowing ursaluna in is way too high, considering how it can find many oppertunities using the pivots availible

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Luna isnt just a late game Pokémon and can just as effectively take over a mid game in certain situations. It’s also not exactly true that it needs Tera to even attempt late game shenanigans, but that Tera tends to make dealing with it in those circumstances more difficult than usual.

without tera its vulnurable to many mons who can threaten it... even mons who jsut run coverage it prob needs to tera against... there are prob very few mons who luna can setup freely without needing to tera. Considering BU doesnt even run facade or have a lot of investment its nto exactly threatening at base either

It’s been pointed out elsewhere in this thread but people have in general gotten better at piloting flame orb sets, and it’s not uncommon to see it get 2 kills minimum, and more if Tera is used. Of course it’s not the broken set in question here, but you’re dismissing flame orb sets effectiveness in a modern time.

Flame orb really is just a boosted wallbreaker .. you can often times tera or pivot around it a bit and just force it out... sure it may dent a giant hole but u can force it out. Its not awful but its not smth that is getting 2 kills minimum unless ur letting it in that much

What even is this argument. Zap has to rely on inaccurate hurricanes back to back, while +1 ice punch is a 2HKO. Coba meanwhile isn’t switching comfortably in due to the threat of EQ and can’t even KO a healthy Luna at +1 with CC, while the defensive drop actually lets +1 Drain Punch drop Coba.

- yeah... despite bu ursaluna not taking that much from cane to win the 1v1 you are going to be practically dead esp if u get haxed by confusion, get paralyzed and get full para'ed

Coba sure isnt switching into it but you have to use tera to get out of that situation or esp if coba uses smth like tera flying alongside helmet dmg to accumulate more dmg than is needed.

Give Tera to something and they can turn set up opportunities from something normally threatening it? Sure. But this doesn’t apply in equal measure to all abuses and Luna stands above as an excellent abuser because it isn’t just Tera, but its natural power and set of quality that Tera elevates further.

its natural power isnt really impressive at +0... even at +1 its strong but its not really nuking stuff at that lvl... even a max phys def hydrapple isnt ko'ed at that lvl which can definitely slow it down by accumulating helmet dmg + other moves thrown at it, while other stuff like zapdos can still beat it by spamming hurricane, confusing itand even then ursaluna is gonna likely come out not very healthy from that 1v1

Once you tera you also can just use smth else to counter it... if they use tera to try to sweep you can use tera of your own to stop it. Sure a good tera can allow u to take an extra mon or two but even then most mons can turn the tables against opponents

Please stop comparing luna to other wallbreakers because it is misled into thinking that players who support DNB don't understand Tier. there is no Pokémon that is harder to counter than luna even in OU, and if you even take bulk into account, the wallbreakers you mentioned are a far more vulnerable and ineffective pokemon.

Counter by smogon definition? Sure .. it has like no mon who can switch into it over and over.

Deal with it by having other mons who can just pressure it and make it so you limit opportunities? sounds more reasonable and if people who join in dont understand the tier at all plan to vote DNB before i doubt that will change even after reading the BAN arguments.

The wallbreakers i mentioned still can put in a lot of work given a free switch... if for ex. i bring in bond greninja mid game vs a slowking they are likely in a losing position unless they burn tera or have to play around it, specs hydrapple vs rhyperior? you have to be very careful around it. In general ursaluna really is just played around similarly by limiting its opportunities esp flame orb... just like u wont switch in slowking on a torn-t who is planning to u-turn every day of the week into a cb ttar is the same way you are prob not gonna want to bring in slowking in that scenario as well against ursaluna.

 

[udongirl]

The wallbreakers i mentioned still can put in a lot of work given a free switch... if for ex. i bring in bond greninja mid game vs a slowking they are likely in a losing position unless they burn tera or have to play around it, specs hydrapple vs rhyperior? you have to be very careful around it. In general ursaluna really is just played around similarly by limiting its opportunities esp flame orb... just like u wont switch in slowking on a torn-t who is planning to u-turn every day of the week into a cb ttar is the same way you are prob not gonna want to bring in slowking in that scenario as well against ursaluna.

Not many times, but every pokemon other than sinistcha cannot switch "once" if Ursaluna chooses the appropriate action. This “switch” means being able to withstand all of Ursaluna's attacks at least twice, or being able to withstand both of Ursaluna's stab attacks at least once and defeat it with a single blow. This is a feat that even crawdaunt, the strongest wallbreaker on paper, could not accomplish.
Whether or not we ban ursaluna, we must recognize that this mon is the most difficult wallbreaker to switch, if not the best ever. BB ninja is not even worthy of comparison as it cannot OHKO a healthy slowking (except tera dark, stellar doesn't).

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Not many times, but every pokemon other than sinistcha cannot switch "once" if Ursaluna chooses the appropriate action. This “switch” means being able to withstand all of Ursaluna's attacks at least twice, or being able to withstand both of Ursaluna's stab attacks at least once and defeat it with a single blow. This is a feat that even crawdaunt, the strongest wallbreaker on paper, could not accomplish.
Whether or not we ban ursaluna, we must recognize that this mon is the most difficult wallbreaker to switch, if not the best ever. BB ninja is not even worthy of comparison as it cannot OHKO a healthy slowking (except tera dark, stellar doesn't).

Sure Sure its very strong power wise but even if you get into a bad scenario it will be much easier to pressure a flame orb ursaluna than smth faster like the battle bond gren who might get battle bond from it and can run with a game.

Choosing the right option is smth others can do as well... cb ttar clicks eq and drops coba? well now every time slowking comes in and u u-turn CB ttar in smth is prob dropping or not liking it. Despite guts stab facade doing a lot of dmg you still have to pick right into many teams and eq often times is not sufficient enough

 

[Moyashi]

without tera its vulnurable to many mons who can threaten it... even mons who jsut run coverage it prob needs to tera against... there are prob very few mons who luna can setup freely without needing to tera.

Sets up on many mons it checks that are forced out by it? Like any up Pokémon?

yeah... despite bu ursaluna not taking that much from cane to win the 1v1 you are going to be practically dead esp if u get haxed by confusion, get paralyzed and get full para'ed

Coba sure isnt switching into it but you have to use tera to get out of that situation or esp if coba uses smth like tera flying alongside helmet dmg to accumulate more dmg than is needed.

You’re not leaving zap in when you’re likely to need it for Luna’s teammates as well. You’re also saying this as if every hurricane hit AND got confusion and para. Your coba argument is even weirder because you have to have both helmet and Tera flyin AND avoid EQ on the way in. It’s just not really working.

its natural power isnt really impressive at +0... even at +1 its strong but its not really nuking stuff at that lvl...

you have to be joking.

Sure Sure its very strong power wise but even if you get into a bad scenario it will be much easier to pressure a flame orb ursaluna than smth faster like the battle bond gren who might get battle bond from it and can run with a game.

Choosing the right option is smth others can do as well... cb ttar clicks eq and drops coba? well now every time slowking comes in and u u-turn CB ttar in smth is prob dropping or not liking it. Despite guts stab facade doing a lot of dmg you still have to pick right into many teams and eq often times is not sufficient enough

battle bond isn’t nearly as threatening before it gets that boost and has to work quite hard. It’s also naturally stopped by priority, especially Lokix which is around every corner. Unboosted it’s pretty easy to check. you also keep bringing up CB tar when that suffers from choice band lock and being vulnerable to status, and is actually more prediction reliant.

there are multiple games from UUBD in week one where flame orb Luna got multiple kills pretty enemy and opened up the enemy team. oh and This game exemplifies how terrifying it can be.

we’re discussing BU of course but don’t downplay the Mon in general.

 

[Colin]

I am pro ban on Ursaluna. it's slow but near impossible to switch into, but it's very bulky. Therefore, it's amazing at forcing trades vs whatever is in front of it, since switching into Facade is not a thing most teams can afford to do since Ursaluna can just do the same thing again later because it's not nearly as chipped. It's also amazing with paralysis support, so that it's not even forced to trade to claim a free facade.

Pokemon slower than Ursaluna such as Slowking, and Pokémon that don't immediately threaten it such as Tornadus therian have much worse defensive utility if Ursaluna is in the back because they are forced to pivot out immediately to avoid that match up. Nothing, except another Ursaluna, dependably comes close in a turn to the progress made by Ursaluna with a turn to click Facade.

Bulk up sets are less immediate, but with or without Terastalization they are very threatening due to sheer bulk and still good power. They also have the longevity with leftovers to deny teams that plan to deal with ursaluna by just always trading vs whatever gets forced in front of it. Hyper Offense, Bulky Offense, and Balance can viably run both sets, and Ursaluna will be a near lock to trade positively or with an important defensive piece, assuming Bulk Up sets don't even threaten a sweep.


TLDR Facade switch ins do not exist mostly, and Ursaluna can nearly always force good trades because of it. Bulk up sets are an incredible threat and are great at trading too.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Sets up on many mons it checks that are forced out by it? Like any up Pokémon?

like? sure maybe h-arc prob is setup fother, smth like heat wave torn-t is prob to, and maybe slowking who is really scared of burning you but ur likely getting out of that situation with a pretty darn worn down ursaluna unless u burn tera, but even then i can burn tera later in the match to secure a point in my favor as early tera's ive heard are very bad

You’re not leaving zap in when you’re likely to need it for Luna’s teammates as well. You’re also saying this as if every hurricane hit AND got confusion and para. Your coba argument is even weirder because you have to have both helmet and Tera flyin AND avoid EQ on the way in. It’s just not really working.

Sure.... but people clearly say its not worth setting up on zap and even then ur relying on just not getting confused, para'ed, and relying on misses over the course of 3 turns

Coba is prob not hard switching in anyway... most physical mons dont want to switch inot a BU mon just like how most special attackers dont want to switch into a CM latios, CM enamorus, or physical attackers against BU okidogi

you have to be joking.

ursaluna without guts boost, without facade, and both its coverage moves even at +0? are you joking? u dont even KO greninja from full with eq / drain punch which prob shows that its not exactly weak as shit but its not strong where "oh no im so scared that this mon is gonna drop in one hit" unless ur paper thin.

battle bond isn’t nearly as threatening before it gets that boost and has to work quite hard. It’s also naturally stopped by priority, especially Lokix which is around every corner. Unboosted it’s pretty easy to check. you also keep bringing up CB tar when that suffers from choice band lock and being vulnerable to status, and is actually more prediction reliant.

Considering how common protect seems to be on such sets i doubt the effectiveness of priority in this case esp since bullet punch is resisted, sucker punch isnt doing as much while comfey draining kiss is really only on HO.

really... battle bond is not only stronger but faster than luna which allows it to pick off many more offensive threats and actually get turns as it can pick off mons to get smth in.. while a 10% cobalion can still threaten ursaluna with a close combat.

CB ttar isnt a common target to status as burns is only smth that rotom-w uses which ive been told is a shitmon that is not good in this tier, zapdos definitely doesnt want to risk eating static, while tinkaton smth that can threaten t wave idt ttar is gonna be massively bothered by it. Sure its also choice locked and may need to predict more but often times u can get the same result u desire. If cobalion for ex. comes in with a good read you can just eliminate it out right, same with luna

there are multiple games from UUBD in week one where flame orb Luna got multiple kills pretty enemy and opened up the enemy team. oh and This game exemplifies how terrifying it can be.

we’re discussing BU of course but don’t downplay the Mon in general.

Right... idt anybody decides to go tink on a slowking who is 100% clicking chilly (even in gen 8 they would often just t port out from there). Smth like sub BU okidogi, CM enamorus-t, NP thundy-t, hoopa-u, BD azu and other mons would also give the team hell when the pivot is just slowking to cobalion and torn-t (or tinkaotn in this case) which is just a team asking to be eaten alive by volt turn cores who can def take advantage of that

When they bring tink in ofc they are gonna bring in ursaluna.... this isnt smth very special to it and i bet any player who has a half decent team can take advantage of that scenario easily. Turn 11 is also like.. slowking is gonna come in as lokix helps vs scizor, zarude, and can pressure a torn-t in the future so it was a play that made sense. Again, most players would be able to exploit this like using SD exca vs tink to gain massive amounts of progress (that slowking is like sp. def considering phys def takes 20% min from volt)

 

[udongirl]

Sure Sure its very strong power wise but even if you get into a bad scenario it will be much easier to pressure a flame orb ursaluna than smth faster like the battle bond gren who might get battle bond from it and can run with a game.

Choosing the right option is smth others can do as well... cb ttar clicks eq and drops coba? well now every time slowking comes in and u u-turn CB ttar in smth is prob dropping or not liking it. Despite guts stab facade doing a lot of dmg you still have to pick right into many teams and eq often times is not sufficient enough

You are missing the point since the discussion is about whether or not you can get the kill in the first place. bb gren is a sweeper that wipes out weakened teams, which works completely differently than luna, which destroys the opponent's team in the early stages of the game. And at that stage greninja is nothing but helpless.

As I change the subject, I would like to introduce you to the Porygon2 team. P2 in the current metagame is recommended because it can trigger download with high frequency and can hit AV Torn, the most common special wall. Below are the team and replay.

UULT Pory2 (pokepast.es)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen9uu-777443

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

You are missing the point since the discussion is about whether or not you can get the kill in the first place. bb gren is a sweeper that wipes out weakened teams, which works completely differently than luna, which destroys the opponent's team in the early stages of the game. And at that stage greninja is nothing but helpless.

Even then ursaluna usually requires tera for itself.. it is much easier to handle a team late game who has a lack of tera because it was used early rather than a late game team who saved it. Most teams have options for a non tera luna and yeah torn-t isnt exactly gonna do to much to it but with knock off + repeated bleakwind storms (like 2) prob puts luna in territory where it just gets revenged by others. Even mons like encore tink and encore ogepron-teal are good mons who can pressure it well while also just being able to take advantage how a +0 luna isnt really doing much to a team

 

[udongirl]

Even then ursaluna usually requires tera for itself.. it is much easier to handle a team late game who has a lack of tera because it was used early rather than a late game team who saved it. Most teams have options for a non tera luna and yeah torn-t isnt exactly gonna do to much to it but with knock off + repeated bleakwind storms (like 2) prob puts luna in territory where it just gets revenged by others. Even mons like encore tink and encore ogepron-teal are good mons who can pressure it well while also just being able to take advantage how a +0 luna isnt really doing much to a team

Why are you talking about BU when I was arguing how strong Ursaluna is compared to greninja and crawdaunt(lol)? I think the forb set is stronger than the BU set, but these points are significantly off the mark. Even if the BU set does not find an opportunity to set up, it can 2HKO a fast attacker like ogerpon. Unless you have a very unskilled opponent who uses tera and bu when you have tink, you can't say you have dealt with luna by tink or oger.
From the start, to claim that BU is weaker because it can be stopped by encore is to ignore the fact that encore is an open move that does nothing to switch the opponent.

 

[Tree69420]

I've gotta say that I think I know what does make ursaluna much more powerful than in OU. There is an extreme amount of pivot pokemon in the UU tier, that enable ursaluna to come in and destroy anything slower than it. There is cobalion, mandibuzz, tornadus, zapdos, slowking, rotomwash, pecharunt, and thats only defensive pivots. Compare that to the OU tier, where there is corviknight landorus, slowking galarian, sometimes gliscor, and maybe dragapult? But there are clearly way more in UU. Combined with scizor, lokix, two extremely powerful offensive pivots that force stuff out, ursaluna often finds its way in a very good position. And once it is in, it is extremely hard to stop it offensively and defensively; it has huge natural bulk, and teralyzes out of would-be weaknesses.

At least for me, the punishment for allowing ursaluna in is way too high, considering how it can find many oppertunities using the pivots availible

the other thing is that uu is both frailer and just not as strong as ou where even if u get luna in and make the right plays with it any halfway offensively inclined mon will be able to pick you off, before even factoring in the hazard infestation there, but here guys like av torn only do 30 which is easily eatable if you get another attempt letting the mon go 2 for 1 often even without tera

 

[sanguine]

I don't play this tier all that much, but luna doesn't seem particularly healthy.

Flame Orb sets generally don't have to think about much, there usually is very little to no drawback to spamming Facade. It's such a strong attack, that games turn into this perpetual game of chicken from the non-luna user where either you're forced to play uber-aggressively in order to minimize its chances to get in the game, or you're forced to sack crucial members of your defensive core in order to trade with it in some capacity. With the amount of pivoting options available that can directly force it in, double-switches not withstanding, it feels like you're perpetually forced to make otherwise suboptimal midground plays just to have a chance to not die to it, which allows other members of the opposing team to directly force advantages because of Ursaluna merely existing in the back. Ursaluna's capacity for swinging the game wholecloth in single turns means one missed turn can spell the end of the game. This is exacerbated by its various different tera-types which make even theoretically correct play lead to checkmate situations for whoever does not get luna in first, exemplified by various uubd games played this week where ursaluna getting in legitimately forced sequences that led to inevitable victory.

Bulk Up sets are another headache onto themselves, rendering what little offensive or defensive counterplay that exists frankly moot. It speaks for itself, almost, how much progress it makes on its own. Balance teams don't really have an answer for it, and offensive builds don't ever enjoy having it on the field either, considering how strong it is and the fact that even one Body Slam paralysis in such an offensive metagame means one of your mons is effectively turned into a sack.

As a spectator for the most part, the prospect of a metagame turning into a mix of balance teams winning off of getting it in for one turn or hyper-offense being spammed in the vain hopes of avoiding dealing with it in the first place does not seem all that fun to watch, and I can only imagine the torture it is to play versus on a daily basis. On principle, I don't think we should keep around threats so centralizing and so capable of swinging the game in one player's direction without much or any effort. The metagame is offensive enough as is, and I don't see what this mon in particular adds to the tier other than the dizzying dopamine crescendoes of killing things with Facade.

i know next to nothing about how pokemon works, but thanks for reading anyway.

 

[Monky25]

har har har har har huar huar huar har har. har har har har, har har har har.
- Fredy Fastbear (2014)

I haven’t made a forum post calling for something to be banned in a good few months so you can already tell that I really have a strong desire to Ban Ursaluna. WCOP, UULT, UU Open, and now UUBD. There have been endless showings of Ursaluna’s dominance and restrictiveness on the builder. I myself was a bit hesitant towards banning Ursaluna at first, but after really getting into building for UUBD as well as continuing to examine games across the last month and a half it’s undeniable that Ursaluna is far too restrictive and effective at what it does to be allowed in the UU tier any longer.

The main issue with handling Ursaluna I feel a lot of players fail to recognize is its bulk. 130/105/80 is absolutely phenomenal for a Pokémon like Ursaluna and coupled with a natural 140 base attack, it is very hard to punish as a whole even if using Bulk Up variants without setting up. Flame Orb just mindlessly kills shit and even decent usage in-game means you get 2 kills easily whereas Bulk Up easily can prime itself towards a sweep when in against many Pokemon throughout the tier. The issue isn’t that Ursaluna is inherently restrictive onto bulkier archetypes between Flame Orb and Bulk Up, rather its matchup against even BO and certain offensive builds is what pushes it over the edge for me thanks to the trade potential achieved from the aforementioned high bulk. Common glue picks like Tornadus-T, Excadrill, Lokix, Zapdos, and Tinkaton all fail to take it out from high HP and require Ursaluna to be pretty chipped to take it out; note that Tinkaton and Excadrill attacks just get healed off by Drain Punch as well, resulting in Ursaluna getting many, many chances to click against even faster threats. Ursaluna’s raw bulk and setup capabilities ultimately creates an effect in the builder where you pretty much have to hone in on stacking your team with numerous offensive Pokémon (Greninja, Cobalion, Serperior, Latios) who can outspeed AND threaten Ursaluna super effectively and it still will get value against you just by nature of taking advantage of utility picks and support Pokémon. Ursaluna actively de-incentivizes players to even bother with slower Pokemon like Hydrapple, Slowking, Toxapex, Rhyperior, Enamorus-T, Skeledirge, Pecharunt, Tyranitar, bulky Scizor, and bulky Metagross to name a few as well as heavily damages archetypes like sand and balance that require usage of these Pokemon. No other Pokémon in the tier does this while maintaining a solid offense matchup.

Furthermore, it’s very easy to support Ursaluna with the amount of pivots we have, essentially putting extreme burdens on defensive cores to try their best to not let Ursaluna in. Have to go Toxapex on Lokix? Luna in. Have to go Rhyperior on Torn? Luna in. Have to go Hydrapple on Sandy Shocks? Luna in. Have to go Slowking on Cobalion? Ursaluna is fucking in. UUBD is basically Greninja (who abuses the heavy offensive metagame) + Luna + pivots simulator which is absolutely a metagame that is not desirable to have where one archetype vastly stands above the others. We’re basically playing “God I hope Ursaluna doesn’t get in on half my team who is slower and/or can’t kill it instantly because epic bulk and typing moment.” Comparing Ursaluna to other breakers, it’s not Flame Orb alone that is overpowered, but rather Ursaluna’s stat spread and access to BU sets it apart from others like Azumarill, Hisuian Arcanine, and Mamoswine. Even Okidogi, who is the closest comparison to Ursaluna in the tier, still falls short due to a worse defensive typing to an extent, as Tornadus, Excadrill, and Zapdos (all very common Pokemon) hit you super effectively compared to Ursaluna, and is vulnerable to some status pre Tera and all post Tera, which ties into the other big issue with Ursaluna being inability to be statused in tandem with Terastallization. Scald from Slowking, Thunder Wave from Tinkaton and Slowking, Toxic from Mandibuzz and Toxapex, and Wisp from Skeledirge and Rotom-Wash all further amplify Ursaluna’s breaking especially with the very hard to kill Bulk Up variants, meaning that even though it’s on a timer, it will still tear through defensive cores with ease.

Moreover, Tera unpredictability is also a very big issue with Ursaluna having a variety of Tera types that can flip the matchups on pretty much any revenge killer it wants. Tera Fairy shits on Cobalion, Mandibuzz, and Latios Draco, whereas Tera Dragon blocks Grass- and Water-type moves from foes like Grasspon, Zarude, Greninja, and Rotom-Wash. Others like Tera Ghost for the Fighting-type immunity in addition to resisting Steel- and Poison-type attacks from Okidogi and Scizor and Poison for the combined Fighting- and Grass-type resists are also potent options, resulting in insane flexibility for Ursaluna as a whole that is basically unknown on preview and can flip any revenge killing attempts from occurring. Not many Pokemon in particular have this many effective tera types to utilize, probably none at all off the top of my head in terms of how flexible and useful each is. Going back to the Okidogi comparison, it only really runs Tera Fairy for Bulk Up sets due to needing that key middleground between Tornadus-T and Excadrill, but Ursaluna’s aforementioned great matchup against the most common utility options in the tier grants it this flexibility. Ursaluna’s raw bulk already makes it very hard to take down, but the ability to flip any revenge killing attempts barring like a Specs Latios Luster Purge with the simple click of the Tera button lets Luna easily take down 2-3 Pokemon in the game even if outright not sweeping. By then the damage is already done and Luna has done its job of breaking walls to enable other teammates to win. Apart from Sinistcha, there really is no reliable outs to Ursaluna with the Facade “switch-ins” like Metagross and Cobalion taking 50% and having to handle other Pokemon as well, and coupled with pivot support all Ursaluna needs to do is get in a few times vs slower Pokémon to break holes. With Ursaluna gone, we see greater breathing room in the builder, as more options will be opened up solely because they aren’t slower than Ursaluna nor fail to KO it and thus enable other breakers who are actually beating to keep a balance between playstyles going thanks to having the defensive support they need to function. Balance and sand will add to a greater diversity of play styles as a whole with BO also becoming more consistent. I cannot tell you how many sick ideas using diverse Pokemon we came up with in UUBD only for them to just fall flat to this broken Pokemon with the little answers it has.

To conclude, what makes Ursaluna banworthy is:

• Insane bulk for an offensive Pokémon + an immunity to status + a useful natural typing against the most common utility picks, making it very difficult to take out without dedicated breakers, punishing threats who even though they are faster fail to KO it via a KO in return or using them as setup bait
• Nuclear wallbreaking with Flame Orb or an insanely difficult to kill sweeper using Bulk Up that hits hard naturally, cannot be stopped via status, and can outtrade and snowball against the metagame at large, ultimately posing the issue of set versatility when handling Ursaluna in that you can’t just outtrade Flame Orb variants but also have to make sure your Pokemon don’t end up as setup bait for Ursaluna
• Potent Tera flexibility between Fairy, Ghost, Dragon, and Poison to name a few, all of which can easily be the other on preview, thus making Ursaluna even more difficult to take down with a revenge killer being taken out instead or outright becoming fodder for Bulk Up variants
• The effects it has on the metagame shifting it to a very skewed usage of offensive teams with little room for bulkier playstyles to be run and the heavy restrictions it poses on others like sand and BO unlike anything else in the tier

Ban Ursaluna

 

[BigFatMantis]

Ursaluna’s been broken for two years I’m just sayin

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

Why are you talking about BU when I was arguing how strong Ursaluna is compared to greninja and crawdaunt(lol)? I think the forb set is stronger than the BU set, but these points are significantly off the mark. Even if the BU set does not find an opportunity to set up, it can 2HKO a fast attacker like ogerpon. Unless you have a very unskilled opponent who uses tera and bu when you have tink, you can't say you have dealt with luna by tink or oger.
From the start, to claim that BU is weaker because it can be stopped by encore is to ignore the fact that encore is an open move that does nothing to switch the opponent.

Since when does an ogerpon hard switch into a setup sweeper... even in the past that isnt how it works, u dont just bring in ogerpon on smth like CM keldeo right away when u can eat a secret sword

i mean u can... tink is not only faster but can annoy it with knock + encore while ogerpon threatens a super effective hit which scares it out as even ice punch at +0 doesnt kill it and if it uses bulk up and it pivots in then its forced out which if luna has to keep guessing "dam, i dont want to keep wasting turns trying to bulk up just to be forced out"

If luna isnt using tera because there is an ogerpon or tink in the back then its much easier to deal with....

I don't play this tier all that much, but luna doesn't seem particularly healthy.

Flame Orb sets generally don't have to think about much, there usually is very little to no drawback to spamming Facade. It's such a strong attack, that games turn into this perpetual game of chicken from the non-luna user where either you're forced to play uber-aggressively in order to minimize its chances to get in the game, or you're forced to sack crucial members of your defensive core in order to trade with it in some capacity. With the amount of pivoting options available that can directly force it in, double-switches not withstanding, it feels like you're perpetually forced to make otherwise suboptimal midground plays just to have a chance to not die to it, which allows other members of the opposing team to directly force advantages because of Ursaluna merely existing in the back. Ursaluna's capacity for swinging the game wholecloth in single turns means one missed turn can spell the end of the game. This is exacerbated by its various different tera-types which make even theoretically correct play lead to checkmate situations for whoever does not get luna in first, exemplified by various uubd games played this week where ursaluna getting in legitimately forced sequences that led to inevitable victory.

Bulk Up sets are another headache onto themselves, rendering what little offensive or defensive counterplay that exists frankly moot. It speaks for itself, almost, how much progress it makes on its own. Balance teams don't really have an answer for it, and offensive builds don't ever enjoy having it on the field either, considering how strong it is and the fact that even one Body Slam paralysis in such an offensive metagame means one of your mons is effectively turned into a sack.

As a spectator for the most part, the prospect of a metagame turning into a mix of balance teams winning off of getting it in for one turn or hyper-offense being spammed in the vain hopes of avoiding dealing with it in the first place does not seem all that fun to watch, and I can only imagine the torture it is to play versus on a daily basis. On principle, I don't think we should keep around threats so centralizing and so capable of swinging the game in one player's direction without much or any effort. The metagame is offensive enough as is, and I don't see what this mon in particular adds to the tier other than the dizzying dopamine crescendoes of killing things with Facade.

i know next to nothing about how pokemon works, but thanks for reading anyway.

- isnt that against most wallbreakers... sure facade is free but so are most mons that threaten bulky mons or mons that cant do much to smth else... like cb ttar is a pokemon i liked using cuz it would just do very well in those situations where players just like bringing in slowking on torn-t or bring zapdos in. This isnt exactly ursaluna exclusive and even then pivoting to smth to force it out while accumulating chip means it just does worse as the game goes on. It hasnt been a problem to deal with even in UULT and when ursaluna gets the 3+ kills is usually when mistakes are made
- "This is exacerbated by its various different tera-types which make even theoretically correct play lead to checkmate situations for whoever does not get luna in first" yeah no... whoever uses tera first is prob at a disadvantage, its smth ive been told in SV UU that early teras arent good and that its always better to have it for late game, having no tera against someone who does even if ur in a number advantage feels like not a situation u want to be in especially late game
- i mean off azu, ogerpon, encore tink, sinistcha, helmet rotom-w (ive seen it before the weeks when ursaluna was getting spammed in tours), tera dirge, SD zarude, WW hippo, knock off can be painful. Even then a lot of stuff can just make it not really like setting up when smth like zapdos hurricane, torn-t focus blast, serp can generally do well, mamoswine, soul dew/specs latios, off gren, keldeo are many things that cna deal with it. OFc i expect the argument "but tera turns all these MU's over" where 1. you need ot tera, and most things that use tera can generally get the jump on its own counterplay 2. requires you to be the right tera for that MU where smth like tera ghost might not be helpful against off latios, keldeo, greninja, ttar, zarude 3. you need to have tera available and alr not be used... ursaluna's typing isnt awful but its not really workable with against any competent team
- i mean smth like lokix stops HO from being spammed... often times it just turns into a sack war where lokix team members try to bring it in as often as possible and bring them into FI range while the HO team just tries to win the sac war and generally doesnt like using pokemon that give it a free First impression esp since most mons on HO cant handle FI -> sucker or FI -> U-turn very well esp with tera bug.

 

[Moyashi]

mean u can... tink is not only faster but can annoy it with knock + encore while ogerpon threatens a super effective hit which scares it out as even ice punch at +0 doesnt kill it and if it uses bulk up and it pivots in then its forced out which if luna has to keep guessing "dam, i dont want to keep wasting turns trying to bulk up just to be forced out"

If luna isnt using tera because there is an ogerpon or tink in the back then its much easier to deal with....

tinkaton is not a check to Luna outside being super risky with encore, which is the height of unreliable. You’re also treating these arguments like it’s Luna vs the world, but it’s 6v6. Tinkaton is often used to take specs ice beams and dark pulses from Greninja, a common Luna partner so you’re not leaving your Tinkaton in vs the Bear.

isnt that against most wallbreakers... sure facade is free but so are most mons that threaten bulky mons or mons that cant do much to smth else... like cb ttar is a pokemon i liked using cuz it would just do very well in those situations where players just like bringing in slowking on torn-t or bring zapdos in. This isnt exactly ursaluna exclusive and even then pivoting to smth to force it out while accumulating chip means it just does worse as the game goes on. It hasnt been a problem to deal with even in UULT and when ursaluna gets the 3+ kills is usually when mistakes are made

Both Zapdos and TornT can pivot on Ttar, chipping it and there are a fair bit more answers to CB Tar than Ursaluna and so Tar has to make predictions to get use out of its switch ins. All while often taking at minimum, rocks chip while Flame Orb just collects kills with Facade. There aren’t any other wallbreakers that really are on the level of Luna in threat, and as Pokémon the closest is Okidogi which is great but still does have roadblocks and checks which help balance it out.

Also “it hasn’t been a problem”? Would we be here if it wasn’t? Making the claim that Luna getting 3+ kills is fault of player error and not the Mon being broken is pretty bold to claim when the Mon consistently puts in work and succeeds.

Even then a lot of stuff can just make it not really like setting up when smth like zapdos hurricane, torn-t focus blast, serp can generally do well, mamoswine, soul dew/specs latios, off gren, keldeo are many things that cna deal with it.

You can repeat it til the sun explodes and we all go poof, but Zapdos spamming hurricane is not counter play to Luna. Same for Torn which you’re not leaving in realistically. Mamo is legit worse because Luna is just a much better Pokémon (and it loses to BU with Tera anyways). Specs Latios gets trolled by Tera fairy Luna, yeah.

OFc i expect the argument "but tera turns all these MU's over" where 1. you need ot tera, and most things that use tera can generally get the jump on its own counterplay 2. requires you to be the right tera for that MU where smth like tera ghost might not be helpful against off latios, keldeo, greninja, ttar, zarude 3. you need to have tera available and alr not be used... ursaluna's typing isnt awful but its not really workable with against any competent team

Tera fairy beats most of these by itself (the op has a screenshot with a nice demonstration). That last line about its base typing “not really workable with against any competent team” just is so absurd and not reflected by reality at all. Like come on.

 

[HydreigonTheChild]

tinkaton is not a check to Luna outside being super risky with encore, which is the height of unreliable. You’re also treating these arguments like it’s Luna vs the world, but it’s 6v6. Tinkaton is often used to take specs ice beams and dark pulses from Greninja, a common Luna partner so you’re not leaving your Tinkaton in vs the Bear.

and since when has tinkaton actually stayed in on bulky setup sweepers that may or may not threaten it... like it isnt gonna sack itself just to encore.. its gonna find an opportunity of entry like a slow pivot, hard switch from a faster pokemon (consider how likely it is someone will hard read eq, prob very unlikely).

Both Zapdos and TornT can pivot on Ttar, chipping it and there are a fair bit more answers to CB Tar than Ursaluna and so Tar has to make predictions to get use out of its switch ins. All while often taking at minimum, rocks chip while Flame Orb just collects kills with Facade. There aren’t any other wallbreakers that really are on the level of Luna in threat, and as Pokémon the closest is Okidogi which is great but still does have roadblocks and checks which help balance it out.

ursaluna clicking facade into a team sure is progress but so are often many other breakers clicking smth into a mon... most offensive teams ive spectated even in other gens would often send out a frailer but offensive threat to take a big hit to retaliate and force it out. its not like facade is some 1hko nuke into everything like how r/stunfisk memes it out to be

Also “it hasn’t been a problem”? Would we be here if it wasn’t? Making the claim that Luna getting 3+ kills is fault of player error and not the Mon being broken is pretty bold to claim when the Mon consistently puts in work and succeeds.

Flame orb luna getting 3+ kills is indeed prob a players fault... if im just giving opportunities to my opponent against a big wallbreaker then yes, it would indeed be my fault for letting it come in that many times esp when the pivot is pretty free.

It seems pretty bold to say this, but whenever a replay review would happen and u let in a big wallbreaker in enough times by pivoting to ur answer to Pokemon A (for ex. torn-t) which brings in Pokemon B (SD cornerstone, Hoopa, SD zarude, Tail glow manaphy, CB ttar) against my Pokemon (Slowking for ex.) I would and have got answers like "you really let that mon in way to many times, you should play more aggro to prevent that"

You can repeat it til the sun explodes and we all go poof, but Zapdos spamming hurricane is not counter play to Luna. Same for Torn which you’re not leaving in realistically. Mamo is legit worse because Luna is just a much better Pokémon (and it loses to BU with Tera anyways). Specs Latios gets trolled by Tera fairy Luna, yeah.

- Zapdos spamming hurricane in a 1v1 is a decent response... it basically is a trade for either side. If zapdos gets hurricane confusion hax, misses them, paralyzes luna, yeah there are variables in that but like there are other mons who have RNG in each 1v1 interaction
- Many mons just lose to tera... tera dogi sets up on torn-t, Tera ground comfey can destroy smth like metagross, Tera steel latios gives it setup against itself, lokix, hydrapple, etc So idk why use tera argument. A lot of stuff lose to smth with tera

Tera fairy beats most of these by itself (the op has a screenshot with a nice demonstration). That last line about its base typing “not really workable with against any competent team” just is so absurd and not reflected by reality at all. Like come on.

- really.... because ofc there are times when a mon will just 6-0 on preview or do very well cuz it had the right tera / coverage for the right MU.. tera fairy into scarf special hoopa is ofc gonna be much better than having tera ghost and just getting nuked by dark pulse.
- using tera as an argument is smth, During UULT many times on ladder while watching high ladder games i have seen people lose to CM comfey cuz their metagross got sniped, Tera electric excadrill and using zapdos as fother, BU okidogi using tera electric and setting up on def zapdos even setting up subs and stuff like that.
- That match was one game either way, it really doesnt mean anything even if ursaluna wins 1 game by 6-0 sweeping a team that def had no answer to tera BU ursaluna what so ever (coba was set up fother to any tera, scizor couldnt really touch it at +1, zarude loses to tera, torn-t doesnt do much unelss its focus blast which it may or may not have)
- btw image is gone and i cant find it on discord, tried to think from memory but it was def weak into BU ursaluna and BU okidogi