Kingambit is Gen 2 Snorlax, inarguably centralizing and arguably broken, but serving too important a role to yeet.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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https://pokepast.es/0ee6e2eea31c0ab5
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Tried it as a semistall before, it's alright in that it works better than you think it would but I think it needs some serious fine tuning. Orth has a nice defense profile that slots in well on stall (primarily as a Bax and grass mon check) and the extra fat from its teammates gives you space to try to cheese more subs with rest talk. Dondozo is the main sub receiver because it's hard to stop without taunt encore or phasing, curse Clod is more of a joke than anything as I've never found a combination of moves that works right with it, and the main reason I gave up on the team was that I was never happy with whatever offensive mon I picked for the last slot.
its probably the best utility mon we've got, no?
rapid spin, taunt, knock off, regenerator u turn, and a ghost immunity to help deal with the shadow ball spam thats so prevalent. and its genuinely insanely fast. it really is just tornadus t on a budget, but that ghost immunity means it can very rarely help ease the specs set, which is something torn cant do without an assault vest. and av torn is waay different from team support.
of course, great tusk is always the better designated spinner, but cyclizar has a lot more going for it in terms of just support. a lot of the most popular mons can do these things, but packing them into one team slot might shake up team building just a smidge. any variety is dope, honestly!
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Generally speaking this thread is intended for discussion of the current metagame, by the way. If people want to discuss Tera in it and its merits in a tiering fashion, they are entitled, but we should keep in mind that it’s focused on the current metagame. In addition, while I do not want to tone police people, let’s be mindful of the fact that there’s another person on the other side of the screen. We can disagree while maintaining respect and civility I would hope.
I'm a new face to the Smogon Forums(started in gen 7 with the z move spam) but wanted to provide my opinion on the recent meta.
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
9 because I don't care about shed tail when I run lead glimmora with tera fire and ting-lu with red card(so if they decide to attack with whatever they shed tailed to) whirlwind because orthworm loves to come in on both.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame? 8
broken checks broken lol
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Shed Tail? 2
gives the forum heartburn
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Volcarona? 3
it can sweep teams but honestly manageable
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Garganacl? 1
a tank immune to status, how fun,also a stealth rocker not afraid of corviknight.
honestly steel+water are like the top types in any meta(plus this meta pokemon want to tera steel/water)
so its good to have diversity of types
it's not even like it doesn't have checks, meowscarada cleanly beats it, gholdengo(I would be running covert cloak anyways) with covert cloak deals with it, brute bonnet, floatzel before garg tera, skeledirge with tera, kingambit with tera(not fire/flying)
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?
no
On a scale of 1-10, how enjoyable do you find the current metagame?
9 because I don't care about shed tail when I run lead glimmora with tera fire and ting-lu with red card(so if they decide to attack with whatever they shed tailed to) whirlwind because orthworm loves to come in on both.
On a scale of 1-10, how competitive and balanced do you find the current metagame? 8
broken checks broken lol
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Shed Tail? 2
gives the forum heartburn
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Volcarona? 3
it can sweep teams but honestly manageable
On a scale of 1-5, how do you feel about Garganacl? 1
a tank immune to status, how fun,also a stealth rocker not afraid of corviknight.
honestly steel+water are like the top types in any meta(plus this meta pokemon want to tera steel/water)
so its good to have diversity of types
it's not even like it doesn't have checks, meowscarada cleanly beats it, gholdengo(I would be running covert cloak anyways) with covert cloak deals with it, brute bonnet, floatzel before garg tera, skeledirge with tera, kingambit with tera(not fire/flying)
Is there anything else not already mentioned you would like to see the Council look into?
no
Yeah in one of my many river of tears posts about tera I went over that we want to keep as many mons as possible.
Dex cut hit us p hard this gen and to lose even 1 mon that could have a niche is rough.
Basically variety is a big part of what makes mons fun. Cycle won't be amazing but it will have a niche and it's always cool to get a new tool for the toolbox when building.
It's wild sometimes how literally 1 mon can change an entire meta.
If Zapdos, for example, randomly dropped it would change the game in a significant way.
Not a fan of dex cuts but I see why they did it.
However, it's really cool that we have 7-star raids and DLC drops to keep it fresh.
That said, how are we feeling about Typhlosion and Typhlosion-H?
Scarf Eruption in Sun could be Cheese-Yu reborn?
252 SpA Typhlosion-Hisui Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 249-294 (53.7 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Specs is p wild as well
252+ SpA Choice Specs Typhlosion-Hisui Eruption (150 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 409-483 (88.3 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
Only things that switch in are flash fire, bliss and AV pex
Something that makes me doub about the comparations with Torn is that Cyclizar doesn't seem to force many switches like Torn used to do. So u-turn and knock off may have limited usage, with Shed tail bring on a low health Cyclizar after something was killed just to u-turn to get the regen healing was worth, while a not shed tail Cyclizar with its low bulk makes hard to see why it would be worth, especially since it fails to force switches and tera steel and fairy being so popular handicaps draco meteor which is the only move Cyclizar can hope to do damage with.
Cyclizar @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
This seems like a fairly basic utility Cyclizar set, that would inevitably probably change and evolve over time, especially in the IVs. Draco hits other slower Dragons and chunks Great Tusk, even with its weaker Special Attack.
U-Turn, Knock and Rapid as honestly three of the best utility moves I've ever seen on one single set. It can switch in fairly easy on likely: Skeledirge, non-Tera'd Ceruledge, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo (unless Avalanche), Gholdengo, etc. etc.
Because even if it takes a lot, it will live and just U-Turn out, and on many get a free Knock.
Ability: Regenerator
Tera Type: Fairy
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Knock Off
- Rapid Spin
- Draco Meteor
- U-turn
This seems like a fairly basic utility Cyclizar set, that would inevitably probably change and evolve over time, especially in the IVs. Draco hits other slower Dragons and chunks Great Tusk, even with its weaker Special Attack.
U-Turn, Knock and Rapid as honestly three of the best utility moves I've ever seen on one single set. It can switch in fairly easy on likely: Skeledirge, non-Tera'd Ceruledge, Clodsire, Corviknight, Dondozo (unless Avalanche), Gholdengo, etc. etc.
Because even if it takes a lot, it will live and just U-Turn out, and on many get a free Knock.
I think unfortunately Typhlosion Hisui is probably outclassed by Charizard on sun for Fire-Type starter, but I think Hisuilosion does alright. Especially since it doesn't lose HP when it uses any attack.
252 SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Charizard Overheat vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Clodsire in Sun: 456-537 (98.4 - 115.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
we could use another spinner that can take on ghost types comfortably
maybe we could also run breaking swipe in the place of draco meteor for the attack drop
we could see ceruledge making a resurgence if that became meta
Maybe I'm a calloused teacher used to people insulting me, but reading your exchange you seem to be the one being a lot ruder than he is. I don't really think his post comes across as hostile, but this one you made absolutely does i.e. calling someone unhinged and psychopathic. The worst he is doing is assuming you are low ladder which is petty but it's not exactly a big deal to be called bad at a video game. It's pretty weird that you call for civility in the same post that you call someone psychotic.
Besides that you aren't really engaging in his points. While I would agree that in a normal suspect, saying the suspect is invalid would be silly, tera was handled quite differently and it is legitimate to question the validity of the results. If you have read any research, you know if you are doing a survey, the way the question is worded can alter your results drastically. Tera absolutely had new toy syndrome, as everything does, and we were still having fun and exploring the mechanic at the time, I would even argue that people were significantly worse at abusing terra. He is arguing that people voted no ban because they didn't like any of the half measures that could have been implemented if we approached that 60% threshold. This sentiment was expressed in some the discussion threads, the half measures proposed were generally pretty unpopular, with tera preview being the most popular, but it was still controversial at best. It's certainly a point you can disagree with, but not a point that is just "I don't like the results so screw them" he does have a real criticism here.
Also is it not reasonable to assume that the result may change given that a decent amount of time and several bans have happened, and the suspect was handled in a more straightforward way given that the result was .8% away (pretty much as razor thin margins as it gets) from action being taken? I don't think that is an unreasonable opinion.
Idk where he comes off as thinking he is smarter than everyone else. It is true that people on lower ladder tend to view tera more positively than higher ladder and tournament players. This doesn't mean they are wrong, but explaining the perspective of someone higher on the ladder, where players are much better at exploiting the frustrating 50/50s tera creates is certainly fine. In low and even mid ladder, players don't even seem to consider common teras in their game plan from what I can tell, which probably makes them feel more like lures and less like 50/50s, or sometimes even 25/25/25/25s. In high ladder and tournament games you have to constantly fear any possible tera from the many extremely dangerous sweepers that end games extremely quickly. As a side note, I certainly hope if you are arguing on the internet you think your opinion is more valid than the other.
People talk a lot about surprise tera types, but it generally they aren't comparable to lures because we know the common volc teras, it is just nearly impossible to accurately predict which one from team structure, and instead of just sniping one pokemon these sets usually win the game on the spot.
I've been recently lurking a lot more than posting but as a reader it is frustrating how pro-tera people give very few arguments for it. Though I personally disagree with Alternator, I do appreciate him making an argument. I think that is probably how it should be. The reason people tend to say pro-tera people have no arguments is they get responses like this one, and not like Alternator's, which has something you can actually pick apart and talk about.
Damn I knew I was always ahead of my time, but the accuracy is just uncanny.
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i changed my mind on shed tail kek
there are some powerful recipients in the tier like iron valiant and roaring moon but even with a substitute they aren't exactly unbeatable 'mons that end games on the spot. take a look at the charity bowl finals for example. the most uncompetitive aspect of this move (and orthworm's godly SPL win-rate) was how it enabled espathra but now that it's gone shed tail doesn't hit the same as an "auto-win button." orthworm itself is also pretty shit post-shed tail causing awkward situations where it's fodder for stuff like volcarona, skeledirge, hatterene, dragonite, substitute dragapult, iron moth etc...
it's a powerful move though, don't get it twisted
but broken? idk man you can still position around orthworm's 1 shed tail per game unlike cyclizar's 20. most of our remaining shed tail recipients are cock-blocked by unaware 'mons and whirlwind ting-lu which a lot of y'all are calling "necessary evils." infiltrator dragapult is also borderline busted right now
i'd even go as far to say that shed tail is healthy because it punishes garganacl users who want to spam salt cure 24/7 like pussies. if garganacl goes i will happily re-consider though. but for now banning shed tail seems soft as fuck as a tiering decision to me lol
the tier is literally just shed tail wars right now. honestly sad how quickly SV regressed this past week as i thought the metagame post-walking wake test was pretty great before this damn shed tail infestation started. i've always been pro-tera (i fuck w/ it heavy) but having to break a substitute through a possible type change is the first taste of uncompetitiveness i've gotten from the mechanic so far. more in-depth thoughts here
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the metagame is quite suffocating so setting up safely can be difficult with its offensive sets. obviously you can shed tail into it but that's getting banned anyways. while volcarona can end games on the spot with the right 4 moves + tera-type, it can also end up being flame body sack fodder if you have the wrong 4 moves + tera-type. that's why i prefer volcarona's bulkier sets right now as they are less volatile; always nice to have that reliable kingambit x iron valiant check
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kingambit reminds me of gen7 magearna, lowkey broken but the tier would fall apart without it. reliably answered by a 60% usage 'mon as well. yes, it can beat great tusk long-term, but if you manage to (1) get kingambit in safely, (2) get the turn right by hitting great tusk on the switch with iron head, and (3) repeat this cycle 3-4 times, then that is called skill not the 'mon being broken. the only way for kingambit to get through great tusk prematurely is by turning flying- or fairy- via tera, and tera'ing as a whole introduces you to a new set of checks. in the case that a great tusk for a great tusk handshake happens, there are still other outs vs it-- dondozo, trick users, iron valiant, focus sash users, breloom, ID corviknight, iron hands, will-o-wisp users, jolly low kick kingambit, substitute users, reactive tera's, speedy skeledirge, encore users, and more niche shit like pawmot, quaquaval, and slither wing sun. i'm also surprised people don't talk about how much trouble kingambit has allocating ev's. amazing 'mon but banning it would do more harm than good imo
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learn to play
bruh what happened tho? (1 to 5 is a wild switchup)
2 more months of Shed Tail simulator happened
Somebody once told me
The Moon was gonna roll me
I ain't the sharpest Tail that's been Sheeeed
Games are looking really fun
With Volcarona and the Sun
Dishing out 6-0 Sweeps to the Tier Heads
Well, the Mons start sweepin
And they don't stop sweepin
Half my team fainted
And Kingambit is Creepin
Didn't make sense to drop HO Cores
The Balance L's just can't win Tour
So much to do
So much to clean
So what's wrong with runnin
The Dual Screens?
You'll never know if you play slow
Stacking spikes up with Gholdengo
Hey now, you're an OU
Get your boots on, Off Knock
Hey now, you're in OU
Use your Tusk to set Rock
All that walls you is Dirge
When's the next change gonna emerge?
The Moon was gonna roll me
I ain't the sharpest Tail that's been Sheeeed
Games are looking really fun
With Volcarona and the Sun
Dishing out 6-0 Sweeps to the Tier Heads
Well, the Mons start sweepin
And they don't stop sweepin
Half my team fainted
And Kingambit is Creepin
Didn't make sense to drop HO Cores
The Balance L's just can't win Tour
So much to do
So much to clean
So what's wrong with runnin
The Dual Screens?
You'll never know if you play slow
Stacking spikes up with Gholdengo
Hey now, you're an OU
Get your boots on, Off Knock
Hey now, you're in OU
Use your Tusk to set Rock
All that walls you is Dirge
When's the next change gonna emerge?
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I'm still pretty split on Shed Tail - on one hand, I find that counterplay involving Orthworm (frustrating name, Orthoworm rolls off the tongue better IMO), is pretty simple and easy to pull off... however, the same arguments were made about Baton Pass. One thing I have noticed is that when I see Orthworm on the opposing person's teambuilder, I'm more likely to feel more comfortable shifting in particular members of my team throughout the match such as Skeledirge or Pyroar, so it definitely has some kind of subtle psychosomatic effect on team building, synergy, and counterplay.
On the survey I voted a 3 on Shed Tail for this reason; I can't quite tell whether that effect on me (and likely, others), is healthy for the long-term stability of the meta or not. It would be interesting to see if Cyclizar would just plummet to BL or UU from Ubers without access to Shed Tail and if Orthworm would just dig straight down to RU or something.
On the survey I voted a 3 on Shed Tail for this reason; I can't quite tell whether that effect on me (and likely, others), is healthy for the long-term stability of the meta or not. It would be interesting to see if Cyclizar would just plummet to BL or UU from Ubers without access to Shed Tail and if Orthworm would just dig straight down to RU or something.
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Enjoyment - 9
It's still a really fun metagame. I'll admit shed tail trends have been souring me up a lot and I had to step away for a second to take a break because it's frustrating at times. Before the sudden uptick though, right after the wake suspect the meta was super fun.
Balance- 8 I think almost everything is fine outside of shed tail atm not much to say here.
Shed tail- 5 this definitely needs to be the next thing to look at for removal. It's quite frankly the only thing you see on higher levels of the ladder. Orthworm shed tails into roarin moon or valiant and they just proceed to twerk all over your team. There are so many scenarios that can just cause orthworm to get it off for free too.
Gambit - 1
Gambit is fine. Guessing it's tera type is really the most annoying factor to it, but overall a very tolerable mon with plenty of counter play, but can still pop off if you play well enough.
Garg, 3- I find this thing to have annoying aspects about it, but again there's ways to deal with it. Salt cure does tend to make it difficult to argue for it at times, but again there aren't many scenarios where it comes out and I just feel like there's nothing I can do unless I misplayed.
It's still a really fun metagame. I'll admit shed tail trends have been souring me up a lot and I had to step away for a second to take a break because it's frustrating at times. Before the sudden uptick though, right after the wake suspect the meta was super fun.
Balance- 8 I think almost everything is fine outside of shed tail atm not much to say here.
Shed tail- 5 this definitely needs to be the next thing to look at for removal. It's quite frankly the only thing you see on higher levels of the ladder. Orthworm shed tails into roarin moon or valiant and they just proceed to twerk all over your team. There are so many scenarios that can just cause orthworm to get it off for free too.
Gambit - 1
Gambit is fine. Guessing it's tera type is really the most annoying factor to it, but overall a very tolerable mon with plenty of counter play, but can still pop off if you play well enough.
Garg, 3- I find this thing to have annoying aspects about it, but again there's ways to deal with it. Salt cure does tend to make it difficult to argue for it at times, but again there aren't many scenarios where it comes out and I just feel like there's nothing I can do unless I misplayed.
I still find hard to believe that shed tail with Orth is the issue. If a mon with a free sub which in most of the cases translates to just 1 free turn, why isn't the mon who get the free sub the issue? What is stopping the people who use shed tail teams once it gets banned just make a few adaptations to the team to get that free turn using other resources such screens, memento, an so on? From my point of view shed tail is very suboptimal and if it works it mostly depends on the abusers match ups than the free sub itself, banning shed tail rn feels like if drough were banned back then instead of Chi-yu under the argumment it not only nerfs Chi-yu but also others abusers, which almost everyone could agree that it would have been a bad decision since Chi-yu was OP itself and sun was not necessarily what made it OP.
It's not necessarily about the mon that's getting the sub being the issue, it's about Shed Tail removing the opportunity cost for that same Pokemon using Substitute's protective qualities; Orthworm just eats the opportunity cost - for example:
Let's say we have Kingambit - if Kingambit uses Substitute itself, it loses 25% HP, has to dedicate a moveslot to Substitute (meaning it loses out on either utility or coverage), and, most importantly, a turn it could have used setting up or attacking has to be dedicated to Substituting up. With Orthworm passing Sub with Shed Tail, Orthworm is the one using that turn cost, Kingambit doesn't have to dedicate a moveslot to Sub, and it doesn't lose 25%.
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I understand that, but even if Kingambit or another shed tail abuser doesn't recive the sub, it still can get screens, Memento, safeguard, or other kind of support with the slot Orth left in the team. We have seen safeguard teams on past gens because mons like Volc were just that good and it was all it needed in some match ups.
Safeguard, Screens, Memento, etc. don't have the same utility that passing a Substitute does:
Safeguard only blocks status, not damage - Substitute blocks both, and stays up until the Substitute itself is broken.
Screens only lower damage received, it does not block status - Substitute blocks both and doesn't require two turns of setup for double screens.
Memento only lowers the Atk/SpA of the Pokemon it used it on, it also does not block status and can be reset by the opposing Pokemon switching out - Substitute cannot be reset in this way
Passing Substitute essentially allows passing both status + damage immunity simultaneously, meaning that instead of finding a way around the Substitute (such as finding a way around Screens, Safeguard, etc), the opponent either has to pack a Pokemon that can bypass Substitute with an ability or move, or it has to take a turn to break the Substitute which allows the Pokemon behind the Sub a free turn to attack or set up. Additionally, Safeguard and Screens don't have the same instant switch utility that Shed Tail has, while the only reason Memento has it is that the Pokemon using it has to faint
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