Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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The only reason I am skeptical is because Chi-Yu and Annihilape terrorized the tier for nearly a month during the Tera suspect. Most other quickbans were handled well, but the time it took to ban those two was not ideal.
This is silly. Quickbans aren’t allowed during a suspect. You are either asking us to do something impossible or to ignore a core mechanic for two Pokemon, which were dispatched of within a week.
I am hoping that the council will focus on quicking banning problematic mons a bit sooner (ideally on a weekly / bi-weekly basis) before moving on to a suspect.
Even with the month slog due to the suspect, we had more tiering action within the first 3-4 months of SV than any other generation, and it’s not close. Compare if you want. This is unfair and unreasonable.

We ALL want the best format possible, and we will get there in a prompt fashion. I promise.
 
Honestly, I feel bad for finch and the rest of the OU cancel, the 6 months pre home where difficult, especially the last two months when we where basically moving blind.

Post home Pre DLC actually looks to be even more insane of a time frame, it’s easily a good 15-20 Pokémon I could see needing a suspect test or quick ban in a what 3-4 month time frame ?Not to mention the Tera retest everyone wants to at least consider
 
So many people already upset over a metagame that doesn’t exist yet when the wave of a wand can quickban anything egregious. It’s upsetting that our culture is trending this way.

To me, it felt like a good way to make the most of a tough situation with home timing to be fully transparent and drop reveals rather than waiting for the last day and dropping a banlist. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with All — too many contrasting opinions, but this thread is riddled with false equivalences and unfair conclusions Imo.
CMON Finch! I did the same thing when Palafin was announced. Look at what happened. I freak out when I can't use ma boi Dondozo vs the new guy on the block. Is it a valid justification? Not at all. But im not concerned I want my opinion out there
 
So many people already upset over a metagame that doesn’t exist yet when the wave of a wand can quickban anything egregious. It’s upsetting that our culture is trending this way.

To me, it felt like a good way to make the most of a tough situation with home timing to be fully transparent and drop reveals rather than waiting for the last day and dropping a banlist. Obviously not everyone is going to agree with All — too many contrasting opinions, but this thread is riddled with false equivalences and unfair conclusions Imo.

I can accept the whole 'we'll ban it anyway', but my question is why bother leaving stuff out at all then.

Even if we all know 99.9% flutter mane would be quickbanned in the first wave... let it?

That's where I'm at rn cause there's clearly supposed to be logic in not allowing X back in the tier for the early chaos, but then we let stuff that's broken on paper anyway in and when panic about those things begin logic being 'chill it'll be gone in a few days/weeks' applies but not to anything else.

Tomorrow could be as easy as "woah, last respects, flutter mane, and chi-yu were bullshit... who knew! but at least we tried".

I'm pretty sure most of the stuff will get banned quickly regardless, and I'm keeping an open mind to that I just don't get why not include more in the unban start if quick banning them all means it doesn't matter, worst that can happen is we find out iron-bundle is somehow checkable now.
 
I get why people are upset at these probably busted Pokemon getting put in OU but look at the bright side!

We all know they're getting banned relatively quickly so let's just think of that small window where they're legal as a time period where we can truly go ham and break the tier in two. As someone highly villainous and unhinged once said: When everyone is Super, no one will be.

See y'all in the flip side of 6-0 sweeps!

(no but for real, i kinda wanna experience the joy of having my Magearna destroy Great Tusk my detested)
 
As a Shield player it hurts to see GF do Zamazenta so dirty :(
 

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Here's a shoutout to the OU Council for having the good sense to not consider Giratina for an unban. This thing has similar raw bulk to Ting-Lu (which is already a great mon in OU) with a superior defensive typing, Will-o-Wisp, and Calm Mind to boost its offenses. There is no way Giratina had any business being OU as it would very obviously be overtuned.
 
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I get why people are upset at these probably busted Pokemon getting put in OU but look at the bright side!

We all know they're getting banned relatively quickly so let's just think of that small window where they're legal as a time period where we can truly go ham and break the tier in two. As someone highly villainous and unhinged once said: When everyone is Super, no one will be.
:sv/avalugg-hisui:
We takin the long way home with this meta
 
Oh..oh…oh n-no

Tr-trick r-r-room sc-scary

No it’s not, Trick Room is effectively 3 turns, and are you really using TR Meowscarada???

Also, yes babe, use Avalugg-H.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 400-472 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 1740-2052 (441.6 - 520.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 418-492 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 480-565 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 508-604 (128.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO


Ursaluna is effectively Kingambit
Do you see Kingambit TR?
no.

Anyways, stop complaining lmaooooo

You are not the council, there is a detailed process they have to do, this is not a tyranny, that’s why there are suspects.

I’m just really frustrated, I can’t explain why, it just feels like everyone wants to ban/unban everything because they want to have power. There’s nothing wrong with having an opinion, it just feels like everyone is shouting my way or the Highway.
 
Oh..oh…oh n-no

Tr-trick r-r-room sc-scary

No it’s not, Trick Room is effectively 3 turns, and are you really using TR Meowscarada???

Also, yes babe, use Avalugg-H.

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 400-472 (101.5 - 119.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 1740-2052 (441.6 - 520.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
132 SpA Iron Moth Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 418-492 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Iron Valiant Moonblast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Avalugg-Hisui: 480-565 (121.8 - 143.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 508-604 (128.9 - 153.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Sacred Sword vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Avalugg-Hisui: 376-444 (95.4 - 112.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Ok but... it can tera, and has Sturdy
 
Everyone shitting in Hisui Avalugg forgets Terastallization is a thing

Anyway even though he sucks compared to others I can't wait to play with Hisui-Typhlosion and Infernal Parade aka ghostly scald
 
Everyone shitting in Hisui Avalugg forgets Terastallization is a thing

Anyway even though he sucks compared to others I can't wait to play with Hisui-Typhlosion and Infernal Parade aka ghostly scald
We aren’t forgetting Tera is a thing, but using Tera to make a bad mon good instead of using Tera to make a good mon broken isn’t the best.

Btw, enamorus will be fun asf. I don’t think it’s super broken but I’m excited for a mon kinda similar to MDia offensively.
 
Certified Hisuian Avalugg hater ^
Mate. It’s Avalugg with a worse defensive typing. How will this fare well in OU?

Sure, it can check Chien-Pao…considering that it’s not switching out. Sure, it can eat a CC from Zamazenta, but what good player will CC into it knowing it has Sturdy? What’s stopping them from going, say, NP Gholdengo or CM Magearna and winning because of H-Avalugg’s extreme momentum drain.
 
Haven't posted on forums in a long while and I've been having extensive discussions on the potential of the returning mons, what will or wont be OU. I just thought I'd share my predicts.

Banned Mons: A trifecta of :Magearna: , then :Zamazenta-Crowned: , and then :Regieleki: . (Chien-Pao goes as well but I'm only going to be discussing RETURNING mons).

:Magearna: I don't think this requires much diving into. While AV and CM-Split type sets will bring nice value to the tier, the pain that is specs and most offensive varients is as bad as its always been. I reckon for as long as Magearna keeps its SS movepool editions, it will never return to OU again. Also while on the topic I thought I'd put in a great meme of a calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 202-238 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Absolutely heinous this thing is. Anyways, moving on.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: Despite his nerfs I don't think his usual strengths have been taken down enough notches; checking it defensively was always possible, even in SS, but forcing this mon out without sacrificing health on something or just losing a mon was a fucking impossible task. Very Melmetal-Esque in that regard, but Melmetal didnt outspeed your usual choice band close combat clicker. Naturally tera adds further grievances in your futile attempts to force this mon out as it just ID's or Howls up and dominates your team slow and steady.

:Regieleki: Tera ice funny. Boots will be good undying and unpunishable progress maker, and specs is just going to be a click button. Tera'ing eleki isnt always ideal since despite what many would want to believe, tera'ing does indeed have opportunity cost, but even if you don't, similar to its functionality in SS, its ability to force out any offensive mon and force in your ground type seemlessly was incredible. Also regular tera blast is still a welcome move over fucking swift/hyper beam.


This next bit I will just post a tierlist I made regarding my thoughts on the mons left:

NOTE: Zama-H didn't have a sprite, the Zama-Crowned you see below is meant to indicate Hero form. Also Urshifu is rapid strike here as Single is banned.

Screen Shot 2023-05-30 at 2.13.53 AM.png



Meta:
:Zapdos: With or without gen 8 transfer moves (defog), will be amazing. We've been thirsting for a real ground immune, and zap offensively applies good pressure too with its hurricanes and volt switches. Heat wave isnt super desperately needed, as you don't have Ferrothorns to deal with. You can set it however you need.
:Heatran: Self explanitory. Rocks taunt, wisp taunt, balloon shit. Good mon. Will need anti tera-ground volc sets.
:Slowking-Galar: As good as always, both future sight and sludge bomb are not as dire necessary as in SS, and pex not being able to knock you means you can get it in 100 times unpunished. With tera it can be teched to handle all threats you may deem necessary.
:Landorus-Therian: Physdef rocker with smack down eq uturn, SD sets, or scarf w/random tera blasts. Pick your goat and load. Even with all his lost moves, Lando do what Lando do. Next.
:Ursaluna: Mon is very melmtal-esque. Slow, bulky but not permanent, super chip-prone but really tough to force out in one go (252 atk tusk CC doesnt kill just max hp). Guts SD, 4 attacks, BU, choice band, or AV bulletproof all good with many moves and many teras. Exciting mon and likely going to be in a meta that it can well abuse.
:Hoopa-Unbound: Broken unwallable button masher and now in a gen with tera and no pursuit. Do the math.
:Sneasler: Definitely overhyped, will be annoying but i think people are overly shitting their pants over the prospect of a potential sleep/para/poison. Especially considering poison stab isnt exactly the msot favourable to click. You're not forcing out a lot with that, so you're gonna be making hard reads just to fish for something. P-point uturn will def be annoying but I don't see it being as broken as some people have been dooming about.
:Zamazenta: Meh power breaker w/o a choice band, heavily 4mss'd, awkward solo typing, mediocre ability, but in turn it has great speed, movepool, defences, and tera to abuse. Will be nice for balance/bulky offence to have a progress maker that also prevents the Kingambit L pretty reliably. I think it will stay.
:Urshifu: SD is a cool edition, hard to speak for its impact in a very offensive meta, and even if u do run into a bulkier team there is risks of stuff like Dondozo, Toxapex, Amoongus etc. Obviously you can pick and tech your set to break those individually, but all in all I think band will be the usual go-to.
:Moltres-Galar: Baby espthra

Rapid fire notes on the Solid list: :Volcanion: got taunt which is a massive buff to the HDB set that I don't understand how its gone under the radar of discussion. Will definitely have good impact breaking wise and filling defensive holes like fire/fairy resist and water immune. :Enamorus: is pretty self explanatory we can all see its stats and movepool. Specs, Scarf, Boots CM/Boots 4a all good. :Rillaboom: only here under the possibility that we get gen 8 transfers back and he comes with glide. Grassy support is busted and as is Glide Rilla. :Tornadus-Therian: more limited without knock off and defog but taunt uturn hurricane still is good check to grounds/fights and AV can sponge and pivot like always. Plot could be good as well. :Thundurus-Therian: For the first time, Thundy-T gets to exist with boots AND a viable double-dance set. And fret not, u dont need to tera into a shitty ice type. Fairy and flying tera blast dominate the upcoming meta just as hard! Try him out asap. :Lilligant-Hisui: :Regidrago: both kind of the same flavor of mon, could be strong tera + setup threats with good alt set options too. Victory Dance, Band, Scarf or DD, Specs, Scarf. All work. Note for Regidrago: the 2 whole relevant fairies will drop to EP + Ancient Power Specs, so u don't have to run weird tera blasts, just commit to tera dragon energry. :Zapdos-Galar: Can abuse lando, hits hard, resists sucker, breaks tusk, can u-turn. Properties of a potential good mon if you ask me.

Won't explain the rest, their tier name kind of explains the entirety of what I think about them. Ty to anyone who gave it all a read.
 
What are everyone's thoughts on all of the Genies? I think Landorus-Therian is fine, and I have been playing around with Grass Knot, which hits Great Tusk for big damage, essentially letting Big Lando 1v1 any non Ice Spinner Tusk.

Tornadus-Therian imo hasn't skipped a beat. Defog sets are ofc dead but Nasty Plot are as good as ever. I think out of all of the Genies this one will be the most dynamic user of Terastilization.

Thundurus will def not be an OU Pokemon. 111 speed isn't special anymore, and it's fragility betrays it's otherwise ok speed tier. The ultimate nail in the coffin is not being able to fire off a quick Thunder Wave against a Chien Pao to cripple it.

As for Enamorus, I believe this will be a A- / B+ ranked Pokémon, simply because it's speed tier and fragility just like Thundurus before hurts it, but Fairy is a valuable and Rare typing, so I think that will enable it in OU. Contrary without the broken Springtide Storm is pretty mediocre, because it's physical Movepool is dogwater and Unaware is actually good in this metagame.
 
Haven't posted on forums in a long while and I've been having extensive discussions on the potential of the returning mons, what will or wont be OU. I just thought I'd share my predicts.

Banned Mons: A trifecta of :Magearna: , then :Zamazenta-Crowned: , and then :Regieleki: . (Chien-Pao goes as well but I'm only going to be discussing RETURNING mons).

:Magearna: I don't think this requires much diving into. While AV and CM-Split type sets will bring nice value to the tier, the pain that is specs and most offensive varients is as bad as its always been. I reckon for as long as Magearna keeps its SS movepool editions, it will never return to OU again. Also while on the topic I thought I'd put in a great meme of a calc:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 202-238 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Absolutely heinous this thing is. Anyways, moving on.

:Zamazenta-Crowned: Despite his nerfs I don't think his usual strengths have been taken down enough notches; checking it defensively was always possible, even in SS, but forcing this mon out without sacrificing health on something or just losing a mon was a fucking impossible task. Very Melmetal-Esque in that regard, but Melmetal didnt outspeed your usual choice band close combat clicker. Naturally tera adds further grievances in your futile attempts to force this mon out as it just ID's or Howls up and dominates your team slow and steady.

:Regieleki: Tera ice funny. Boots will be good undying and unpunishable progress maker, and specs is just going to be a click button. Tera'ing eleki isnt always ideal since despite what many would want to believe, tera'ing does indeed have opportunity cost, but even if you don't, similar to its functionality in SS, its ability to force out any offensive mon and force in your ground type seemlessly was incredible. Also regular tera blast is still a welcome move over fucking swift/hyper beam.


This next bit I will just post a tierlist I made regarding my thoughts on the mons left:

NOTE: Zama-H didn't have a sprite, the Zama-Crowned you see below is meant to indicate Hero form. Also Urshifu is rapid strike here as Single is banned.

View attachment 520232



Meta:
:Zapdos: With or without gen 8 transfer moves (defog), will be amazing. We've been thirsting for a real ground immune, and zap offensively applies good pressure too with its hurricanes and volt switches. Heat wave isnt super desperately needed, as you don't have Ferrothorns to deal with. You can set it however you need.
:Heatran: Self explanitory. Rocks taunt, wisp taunt, balloon shit. Good mon. Will need anti tera-ground volc sets.
:Slowking-Galar: As good as always, both future sight and sludge bomb are not as dire necessary as in SS, and pex not being able to knock you means you can get it in 100 times unpunished. With tera it can be teched to handle all threats you may deem necessary.
:Landorus-Therian: Physdef rocker with smack down eq uturn, SD sets, or scarf w/random tera blasts. Pick your goat and load. Even with all his lost moves, Lando do what Lando do. Next.
:Ursaluna: Mon is very melmtal-esque. Slow, bulky but not permanent, super chip-prone but really tough to force out in one go (252 atk tusk CC doesnt kill just max hp). Guts SD, 4 attacks, BU, choice band, or AV bulletproof all good with many moves and many teras. Exciting mon and likely going to be in a meta that it can well abuse.
:Hoopa-Unbound: Broken unwallable button masher and now in a gen with tera and no pursuit. Do the math.
:Sneasler: Definitely overhyped, will be annoying but i think people are overly shitting their pants over the prospect of a potential sleep/para/poison. Especially considering poison stab isnt exactly the msot favourable to click. You're not forcing out a lot with that, so you're gonna be making hard reads just to fish for something. P-point uturn will def be annoying but I don't see it being as broken as some people have been dooming about.
:Zamazenta: Meh power breaker w/o a choice band, heavily 4mss'd, awkward solo typing, mediocre ability, but in turn it has great speed, movepool, defences, and tera to abuse. Will be nice for balance/bulky offence to have a progress maker that also prevents the Kingambit L pretty reliably. I think it will stay.
:Urshifu: SD is a cool edition, hard to speak for its impact in a very offensive meta, and even if u do run into a bulkier team there is risks of stuff like Dondozo, Toxapex, Amoongus etc. Obviously you can pick and tech your set to break those individually, but all in all I think band will be the usual go-to.
:Moltres-Galar: Baby espthra

Rapid fire notes on the Solid list: :Volcanion: got taunt which is a massive buff to the HDB set that I don't understand how its gone under the radar of discussion. Will definitely have good impact breaking wise and filling defensive holes like fire/fairy resist and water immune. :Enamorus: is pretty self explanatory we can all see its stats and movepool. Specs, Scarf, Boots CM/Boots 4a all good. :Rillaboom: only here under the possibility that we get gen 8 transfers back and he comes with glide. Grassy support is busted and as is Glide Rilla. :Tornadus-Therian: more limited without knock off and defog but taunt uturn hurricane still is good check to grounds/fights and AV can sponge and pivot like always. Plot could be good as well. :Thundurus-Therian: For the first time, Thundy-T gets to exist with boots AND a viable double-dance set. And fret not, u dont need to tera into a shitty ice type. Fairy and flying tera blast dominate the upcoming meta just as hard! Try him out asap. :Lilligant-Hisui: :Regidrago: both kind of the same flavor of mon, could be strong tera + setup threats with good alt set options too. Victory Dance, Band, Scarf or DD, Specs, Scarf. All work. Note for Regidrago: the 2 whole relevant fairies will drop to EP + Ancient Power Specs, so u don't have to run weird tera blasts, just commit to tera dragon energry. :Zapdos-Galar: Can abuse lando, hits hard, resists sucker, breaks tusk, can u-turn. Properties of a potential good mon if you ask me.

Won't explain the rest, their tier name kind of explains the entirety of what I think about them. Ty to anyone who gave it all a read.
I think AV hisui goodra is a great tank with max Hp and Special Attack.
 
Everyone shitting in Hisui Avalugg forgets Terastallization is a thing

Anyway even though he sucks compared to others I can't wait to play with Hisui-Typhlosion and Infernal Parade aka ghostly scald


FYI, FSG's discussion also applies to Avalugg-H.

What are everyone's thoughts on all of the Genies? I think Landorus-Therian is fine, and I have been playing around with Grass Knot, which hits Great Tusk for big damage, essentially letting Big Lando 1v1 any non Ice Spinner Tusk.

Tornadus-Therian imo hasn't skipped a beat. Defog sets are ofc dead but Nasty Plot are as good as ever. I think out of all of the Genies this one will be the most dynamic user of Terastilization.

Thundurus will def not be an OU Pokemon. 111 speed isn't special anymore, and it's fragility betrays it's otherwise ok speed tier. The ultimate nail in the coffin is not being able to fire off a quick Thunder Wave against a Chien Pao to cripple it.

As for Enamorus, I believe this will be a A- / B+ ranked Pokémon, simply because it's speed tier and fragility just like Thundurus before hurts it, but Fairy is a valuable and Rare typing, so I think that will enable it in OU. Contrary without the broken Springtide Storm is pretty mediocre, because it's physical Movepool is dogwater and Unaware is actually good in this metagame.

Good discussion topic. Lando-T and Torn-T will still be fine. Might be thinking outside of the box, but both Thundurus might have niches on Rain teams. NP + Thunder from Thundy-T is still hard to manage. Regular Thundurus could possibly be a secondary Rain setter with a priority Rain Dance. Since Sun and Hail (via Chilly Reception) are relatively popular in pre-Home OU, I don't think that's going to change much in Home OU in the long run. I think having a second setter like a bulky Thundurus might help improve Weather vs. Weather matchups (as seldom as they may be)/

Regular Enamorus isn't going to scratch OU IMO. There's nothing really appealing about Enamorus outside of a Base 135 SpAtk. On paper. a CM + Draining Kiss defensive Enamorus-T could be a solid set. I say this because I think OU does have a shortage of defensive Fairy-types, and Enam-T's ability to check Great Tusk and Dragapult, among other things, might be a solid niche. However, getting completely shat on by Bax and Kingambit isn't really a good look either.
 
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I mean its got a Rock typing, high physical bulk. Really its resistance to Ursaluna's Facade is the justification for me. OBVIOUSLY it's kinda bad, but I'll try using it for the time being
No offense but your really overhyping Ursaluna, like yes it will be good, but never overbearing enough to justify using Avalugg-H especially when Corv, Dondozo, Torn-T, Lando-T, Zoro-H, and Zapdos all exist.
 
:sv/hoopa-unbound:
Oh man. This thing 2HKOs the entire tier for some reason (but so does like 15 morbillion other things). Also good coverage. I won't be having fun with this around. That is unless i hit it with a super speedy U-turn and it drops XD
 
I mean its got a Rock typing, high physical bulk. Really its resistance to Ursaluna's Facade is the justification for me. OBVIOUSLY it's kinda bad, but I'll try using it for the time being
Bro you can't be that desperate for a Ursaluna check that your using that thing. Regular ass Avalugg has a better matchup versus Luna than this shitmon and Avalugg beats literally every other Pokemon in the tier slightly better than this does.
 
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