Greninja came before wake and considering you didn't mention him despite being way better than Intelion means it would have dropped straight to UU.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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Honestly? Kinda, yeah. Orthworm is just "Hey, my opponent didn't immediately switch out of a physical attacker without a Fighting move and I was able to bring in Orthworm, now my setup sweeper of choice gets 1-2 turns of free setup". Tera has broad use cases and responses to them. The best way to use Tera is, in general, to remove responses to it and then have one of your mons flip a bad matchup to start going on a tear. If you can see that Roaring Moon has Booster Energy, not only do you know it's very likely a Tera Flying Acrobatics set instead of having Tera Steel and Iron Head or something else, you also know to take extra care to preserve whatever you have that can take that Acrobatics when the time comes and that Great Tusk isn't the safe switch-in your opponent wants you to think it is.
Inteleon = Outsold
Greninja = Onika
Eats = Burgers
... Genuinely though, inteleon I think will be a decent option as a Choice user outside of sun. Sniper Snipe Shot is no joke, and it's got U Turn to give itself a niche over WW. I just wish it had less physical attack and more bulk.
Greninja = Onika
Eats = Burgers
... Genuinely though, inteleon I think will be a decent option as a Choice user outside of sun. Sniper Snipe Shot is no joke, and it's got U Turn to give itself a niche over WW. I just wish it had less physical attack and more bulk.
Intelleon is wholely worse than Greninja and it can do nothing to bulky waters or water resists. There ry is zero reason to use it at all in the tier.
Yeah, that's the thing with Intelleon, he gets walled by water types, especially bulky ones, at least with Gren, you can pack it with grass knot and you know that he won't leave before hitting hard that Dondozo/Toxapex/Gastrodon. It was bad for the ugly lizard.
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex: 80-95 (26.3 - 31.2%) -- 11.4% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Sniper Inteleon Snipe Shot vs. 252 HP / 64 SpD Toxapex on a critical hit: 151-178 (49.6 - 58.5%) -- 68% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
It's not much, but it's something I guess.
Greninja can just slot in Extrasensory, you know. It's a bit niche but certainly more viable than trying to gamble with a 1/8 crit rate.
Tyranitar @ Choice Specs
Ability: Sand Stream
Tera Type: Ground / Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Power Gem
- Dark Pulse
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power / Focus Blast
Special Tyranitar has some flaws, besides having a 100% Accuracy Rock type Attack. But its capable of Dealing more damage to Orthworm with Fire Blast. However, Focus Blast can get the Guranteed OHKO on a Specially Defensive Orthworm. Non Assault Vest Iron Hands are smited by Tera Ground Earth Power.
Going off this. I’m going to put my law degree to good use and break down the reasons for a Gargancle (hereby referred to as “Garg”) suspect test based on the OU council’s criteria.
Past OU suspects and bans have listed in some form or another the following reasons for suspect/banning a Pokémon :
Lack of viable counter play (See, In re Walking Wake; see also, Smogon v. Flutter Mane) over-centralized team building (See, Smogon v. Chien Pao; see also, Smogon Suspect Radar round 1), lack of competitiveness (See, In re Shed Tail), a powerful ability (See, Smogon v. Palafin), a move that puts the opponent at an unfair disadvantage (See, OU Council v. Cyclizar), a large variety of move sets and EV spreads that make prediction difficult (See, In re Melmetal), lastly, a totally of the circumstances analysis is also a relevant factor in determining the reasonableness of a ban (Cyclizar).
Now that we have established precedent for how the OU council decides if a Pokémon or move should be suspected, I will lay out how Gargancle meets each of these criteria, and therefore, if the OU Council is consistent in their decision making, must be at least voted by the council for a suspect vote.
1) A powerful move that puts the opponent at a disadvantage.
Salt Cure is a move that needs no introduction, it’s now infamous in the metagame and is accounted for in nearly all teambuilders. The ingenuity of Salt Cure isn’t just the consistent, but that it hits water and steel types, two of the best defensive typings in the game, for supper effective damage and taking 25% per turn.
Further, steel and water are types that would usually threaten Garg, are now put at risk for taking large amounts of chip damage. This goes beyond a Pokémon having a coverage move that hits threats, because of Garg’s bulk and the lack of powerful, it can usually survive a turn to recover off any damage inflicted by switch ins. With terastalizing, many switch ins to garg are forced to take even more chip if they are hit by salt cure.
In summary, salt cure makes it nearly impossible for a switch in without taking large amounts of chip damage and potentially sacrificing a Pokémon if you decide to stay in and hit Garg back
2) Lack of viable counter play and forcing over-centralized team building.
A common argument against Garg needing to be suspected is it’s difficulty breaking through substitute and the item covert cloak negating any recurrent damage from salt cure. These methods, are certainly viable, they both have work around a and sacrifices. Covert Cloak is a very niche item, one that saw low usage before it’s protection against salt cure was discovered, using it essentially means having one Pokémon without an item when in a match up without Garg.
Substitute is a common strategy, but also has seen a massive rise in usage this generation. Substitute also has its own drawbacks, now every Pokémon has a viable substitute set in Garg-less matchup and there are work around a for common users such as Hydreigon, who’s standard substitute set is rendered useless by curse-body press Garg. Further, not every Pokémon in OU has a viable substitute set and some, such as sub-Dragapult, cannot break garg
No one would contend with the viability or strength of these strategies, the issue is that they are nearly a requirement on every team now, which is a limit to the creative team building the council wants to see.
3) A powerful ability
Purifying Salt is just as defining of Garg as salt cure. Providing not only with a ghost resistance without any drawback, but also an immunity to status. It allows Garg to set up with impunity since it cannot be slowed or hampered by usual methods used to stop set up pokemon. This ability also gives it a strong tera option in tera-ghost, leaving it with only one weakness and allows it to set up stealth rock while acting as a spin-blocker . It’s high defenses also mean it can tank hits from dark type moves like strong knock offs or kowtow cleave and deliver a salt cure back. While not at the forefront of the difficulty of dealing with Gargancle, it’s ability is another element that pushes it past the threshold of suspect-worthy.
4) A large variety of move sets.
If people, remeber with the Melmetal suspect, one of the reasons behind the test was it’s multiple visible move-sets, making counter play unreliable. Gargancle has the same benefits. Boasting incredible defense and specially defensive stats, along with curse, iron defense, block, stealth rock, and even earthquake, opponents are forced to guess which spread garg is running, and if they choose incorrectly, they are punished for it. Moreover, Gargancle has a wide variety of viable tera types including but not limited to: water, ghost, fairy, and flying. The amount of variability gives it ample opportunity to set up stealth rock, curse, or just it a switch in salt cure.
5) Totality of the circumstances analysis
As discussed above, Gargancle has a great ability, a universally fear signature move, incredible bulk that allows it to almost always make progress, limited counter-play that narrows OU team building, and multiple viable move sets that make counter play difficult to predict. All of these factors together result in Gargancle at the very least being able to heavily chip multiple Pokémon on a team, trade with the opponent, and at best sweep a team as it’s unique set of traits allow it to brush aside standard counters to set up sweeper counters.
Conclusion
On balance, Gargancle fits many of the criteriarn required for a suspect test and yet has avoided one because of other more prominent issues with the metagame. Now is the time for the OU council to take a closer look at a potential suspect test. if they are consistent with the criteria they have set forth in tests before this, there should be little discussion about as to the result of the inquiry.
Past OU suspects and bans have listed in some form or another the following reasons for suspect/banning a Pokémon :
Lack of viable counter play (See, In re Walking Wake; see also, Smogon v. Flutter Mane) over-centralized team building (See, Smogon v. Chien Pao; see also, Smogon Suspect Radar round 1), lack of competitiveness (See, In re Shed Tail), a powerful ability (See, Smogon v. Palafin), a move that puts the opponent at an unfair disadvantage (See, OU Council v. Cyclizar), a large variety of move sets and EV spreads that make prediction difficult (See, In re Melmetal), lastly, a totally of the circumstances analysis is also a relevant factor in determining the reasonableness of a ban (Cyclizar).
Now that we have established precedent for how the OU council decides if a Pokémon or move should be suspected, I will lay out how Gargancle meets each of these criteria, and therefore, if the OU Council is consistent in their decision making, must be at least voted by the council for a suspect vote.
1) A powerful move that puts the opponent at a disadvantage.
Salt Cure is a move that needs no introduction, it’s now infamous in the metagame and is accounted for in nearly all teambuilders. The ingenuity of Salt Cure isn’t just the consistent, but that it hits water and steel types, two of the best defensive typings in the game, for supper effective damage and taking 25% per turn.
Further, steel and water are types that would usually threaten Garg, are now put at risk for taking large amounts of chip damage. This goes beyond a Pokémon having a coverage move that hits threats, because of Garg’s bulk and the lack of powerful, it can usually survive a turn to recover off any damage inflicted by switch ins. With terastalizing, many switch ins to garg are forced to take even more chip if they are hit by salt cure.
In summary, salt cure makes it nearly impossible for a switch in without taking large amounts of chip damage and potentially sacrificing a Pokémon if you decide to stay in and hit Garg back
2) Lack of viable counter play and forcing over-centralized team building.
A common argument against Garg needing to be suspected is it’s difficulty breaking through substitute and the item covert cloak negating any recurrent damage from salt cure. These methods, are certainly viable, they both have work around a and sacrifices. Covert Cloak is a very niche item, one that saw low usage before it’s protection against salt cure was discovered, using it essentially means having one Pokémon without an item when in a match up without Garg.
Substitute is a common strategy, but also has seen a massive rise in usage this generation. Substitute also has its own drawbacks, now every Pokémon has a viable substitute set in Garg-less matchup and there are work around a for common users such as Hydreigon, who’s standard substitute set is rendered useless by curse-body press Garg. Further, not every Pokémon in OU has a viable substitute set and some, such as sub-Dragapult, cannot break garg
No one would contend with the viability or strength of these strategies, the issue is that they are nearly a requirement on every team now, which is a limit to the creative team building the council wants to see.
3) A powerful ability
Purifying Salt is just as defining of Garg as salt cure. Providing not only with a ghost resistance without any drawback, but also an immunity to status. It allows Garg to set up with impunity since it cannot be slowed or hampered by usual methods used to stop set up pokemon. This ability also gives it a strong tera option in tera-ghost, leaving it with only one weakness and allows it to set up stealth rock while acting as a spin-blocker . It’s high defenses also mean it can tank hits from dark type moves like strong knock offs or kowtow cleave and deliver a salt cure back. While not at the forefront of the difficulty of dealing with Gargancle, it’s ability is another element that pushes it past the threshold of suspect-worthy.
4) A large variety of move sets.
If people, remeber with the Melmetal suspect, one of the reasons behind the test was it’s multiple visible move-sets, making counter play unreliable. Gargancle has the same benefits. Boasting incredible defense and specially defensive stats, along with curse, iron defense, block, stealth rock, and even earthquake, opponents are forced to guess which spread garg is running, and if they choose incorrectly, they are punished for it. Moreover, Gargancle has a wide variety of viable tera types including but not limited to: water, ghost, fairy, and flying. The amount of variability gives it ample opportunity to set up stealth rock, curse, or just it a switch in salt cure.
5) Totality of the circumstances analysis
As discussed above, Gargancle has a great ability, a universally fear signature move, incredible bulk that allows it to almost always make progress, limited counter-play that narrows OU team building, and multiple viable move sets that make counter play difficult to predict. All of these factors together result in Gargancle at the very least being able to heavily chip multiple Pokémon on a team, trade with the opponent, and at best sweep a team as it’s unique set of traits allow it to brush aside standard counters to set up sweeper counters.
Conclusion
On balance, Gargancle fits many of the criteriarn required for a suspect test and yet has avoided one because of other more prominent issues with the metagame. Now is the time for the OU council to take a closer look at a potential suspect test. if they are consistent with the criteria they have set forth in tests before this, there should be little discussion about as to the result of the inquiry.
However, Garg is both weak to Grass Knot and Low Kick as it takes 120 BP damage from it.
Absolutely stellar analysis. Chi-Yu may be the most ungodly powerful special attacker ever, but have you considered that it's weak to Close Combat and Earthquake? OU material there, that is.
Chi you is also heavily weakened by rain teams, how has nobody realized this?????????????? Clearly this ban was unjustified and therefore should be redacted by the council posthaste
Garg is fine.
Honestly most of the discussion is eerily similar to Toxapex in Gen 7 and 8. Is it strong? Yes, its probably the best defensive backbone in the tier. Is it annoying? Absolutely, it spreads chip damage easily and sets up hazards. Is it hard to kill? Sure, if the Garg player plays well it is probably going to stick around for a while.
Being pedantic aside, this screams Scald on Toxapex levels of salt. Sure, switching into Garg throwing out a Salt Cure is annoying, but it is far from the switch in invalidating move you claim it to be. Just because a fat mon can get decent chip does not mean its banworthy. No one likes seeing big fat fat fatty sitting there being a fat fat fatty when it stops their honorable playstyle from working. The fact that scald burn/salt cure chip is doing so well is salt (pun intended) in the wound. Thing is, I do not think Garg being a feels bad fat fat fatty is a good reason to ban it. I think its fine that balance has a fat mon that can blanket check large parts of the tier. Having Garg not be complete set up fodder due to the value of Salt Cure is not inherently broken.
Garg is a good mon, but the meta has adapted to it and it is far from the biggest concern right now. It brings a lot to the tier as a backbone for balance and checking some ridiculous pokemon like Dragapult and Gholdengo. It is certainly a meta shaping mon and one of the best mons in the tier, but being a strong backbone for an entire archetype alone is not grounds for a ban. As things stand right now, it is fine.
Furthermore, you are acting like there has not been entire pages of Garg salt for months now. People do not like fat fat fatties sitting in front of them and have not for years now. Garg is no different. Garg is not some secret meta breaker, at least not anymore. People have had the same Garganacl hate posts, Garganacl defense posts, and Garganacl salt posts for a while. People just have adapted to the salty boi. Heck, people have talked about it on the OU tiering surveys. Public support for a Garg test has been falling for a while now. :P
Honestly most of the discussion is eerily similar to Toxapex in Gen 7 and 8. Is it strong? Yes, its probably the best defensive backbone in the tier. Is it annoying? Absolutely, it spreads chip damage easily and sets up hazards. Is it hard to kill? Sure, if the Garg player plays well it is probably going to stick around for a while.
Gonna be honest, you can make this argument for pretty much any viable mon. Good mons make a Pokemon good. Would Kingambit be this good if it did not have Sucker Punch? What if Dragapult did not get Shadow Ball? Quiver Dance Volcarona puts an opponent in a pretty big disadvantage.
Being pedantic aside, this screams Scald on Toxapex levels of salt. Sure, switching into Garg throwing out a Salt Cure is annoying, but it is far from the switch in invalidating move you claim it to be. Just because a fat mon can get decent chip does not mean its banworthy. No one likes seeing big fat fat fatty sitting there being a fat fat fatty when it stops their honorable playstyle from working. The fact that scald burn/salt cure chip is doing so well is salt (pun intended) in the wound. Thing is, I do not think Garg being a feels bad fat fat fatty is a good reason to ban it. I think its fine that balance has a fat mon that can blanket check large parts of the tier. Having Garg not be complete set up fodder due to the value of Salt Cure is not inherently broken.
Not really? Plenty of teams have seen high level use and the meta has adapted nicely to Garg. There is a reason it fell down on the VR was because the meta was adapting to it. You do not need to run Covert Cloak and Sub on everything to handle Garganacl. Common physical breakers like Great Tusk and Kingambit threaten it out, and pokemon it checks like Dragapult and Gholdengo have ways to not give Garganacl a free switch in. Not every mon on your team needs to be a Covert Cloak/Sub mon to handle Garg.
This feels like you are just stating the obvious. Yeah, Purifying Salt is good. Getting a resistance to the best offensive type in the tier is a good thing. Ghost is ridiculous right now offensively. There is a reason Dragapult is the best method of speed control in the tier. Terra Ghost is fine on Garg and opens up some options but a Ghost neutrality post tera is far from a reason to ban the thing.
The only Garganacl set that really lets it beat mons that might otherwise check it is Iron Defense Body Press, and even then its giving up a lot of its usual utility in order to run said set. You lose out on your ability to easily check Gholdengo and Dragapult in order to attempt to lure your other potential checks with that set. Curse and Stealth rock overlap a lot in their checks and terra types so they tend to end up with similar checks.
Garg is a good mon, but the meta has adapted to it and it is far from the biggest concern right now. It brings a lot to the tier as a backbone for balance and checking some ridiculous pokemon like Dragapult and Gholdengo. It is certainly a meta shaping mon and one of the best mons in the tier, but being a strong backbone for an entire archetype alone is not grounds for a ban. As things stand right now, it is fine.
Furthermore, you are acting like there has not been entire pages of Garg salt for months now. People do not like fat fat fatties sitting in front of them and have not for years now. Garg is no different. Garg is not some secret meta breaker, at least not anymore. People have had the same Garganacl hate posts, Garganacl defense posts, and Garganacl salt posts for a while. People just have adapted to the salty boi. Heck, people have talked about it on the OU tiering surveys. Public support for a Garg test has been falling for a while now. :P
Are we still trying to get Garganacci banned? I thought that ship had sailed months ago.
So there are three flaws I can see in your argument. First off, I don't even like the thing myself, but it's not overpowered. By defintion, Toxapex and Ferrothorn in the past fit 4/5 of the criteria listed above, 5/5 depending on the gen and while powerful, were fine when stall was at it's peak power level. Flaw one: There is always a bigger fish. Garg is the best wall in OU 6-7/10 times, so yes it is no surprise that it is powerful. However, defensive pokemon must be looked at from an entirely different approach than offensive mons when looking at a suspect. The only defensive mon this gen that has been looked at is orthworm, but that was for a reason that didn't relate too it's defensive ability but rather a move that is shared between both it and Cyclizar.
Flaw 2: It's movesets- The thing about Garg vs something like Roaring moon is that while having different movesets help against certain threats, Moons (or most other offensive mons) help actively while Gargs help passively. Despite set up moves like Iron Defense and Curse, it can't sweep your team unless you simply don't respect it. And defensively, Recovery moves as a whole were nerfed this gen so it cannot stall like it possibely could of in prior gens if it existed there. Even if you factor in Tera variants, Tera on a defensive pokemon is typically only good when there are few mons left in the game. And that is provided you brought the correct Tera. Garg has variability, but it's team role typically doesn't change much from team to team.
Flaw 3: Player Feedback- The numbers speak for themselves, of the three mons looked at in the last survey, Garg was not only last but last by a wide margin. It certainly has irritating characteristics about it, but any good wall does. A good wall needs a combination of factors to make it scary and viable. Toxapex used to have Scald, Regenerator, and Haze/ the ability too poison. Ferrothorn has godlike typing and seeds, with the bonus of Body press and strong STABS. Garg has an amazing ability and signature attack, but they aren't 6-0ing commonly, if even at all. Again, defensive mons should be looked at differently than offensive for suspects. Like any strong mon, it should be respected. for a meta to take shape, there must be mons offensively and defensively that shape that meta. Yes people are adapting to it, and as they adapt they have come to realize he isn't that bad to fight.
Honestly, I have accepted that Garganacl is never getting banned, but don't say its not a problem and I don't wanna hear anybody say that garga was never broken
Honestly, your post is great, but I would personally expand more on the Block sets, who are cheese supreme, It's not too hard to grab a block against something that garga can handle, you start spamming curses and tera, and then you just kill everybody with high damage salt cure and or eq and stuff, to the point where its a "crit me not" type of sweeper, where unless you get a crit, your never breaking through shit
-"but SPL"
SPL is mostly high level players trying to out mind the other guy with stuff, of course everyone is paranoid to the bone with stuff like garga and no one is gonna give that thing free turns, and that's why SPL is such a great place for innovations, because you have to go out of your way to create something new, or the guy in front is dumping you hard. In such a high controlled environment, this is not the way common stuff tells the story
-"but the player feedback"
Shed tail was always gonna hog all the numbers for itself
-"this is like pex in gen 7 and 8"
Honestly, pex in gen 7 is not that bad, but pex in gen 8 is absolutly insuferable and i would ban it alongside a couple of mons, but then again, i have bias against it so i wont expand a lot
The meta right now is on a new state of change, and HOME is closing in, so we don't even know if there's still time for a garga suspect, but its stocks are increasing
Honestly, your post is great, but I would personally expand more on the Block sets, who are cheese supreme, It's not too hard to grab a block against something that garga can handle, you start spamming curses and tera, and then you just kill everybody with high damage salt cure and or eq and stuff, to the point where its a "crit me not" type of sweeper, where unless you get a crit, your never breaking through shit
-"but SPL"
SPL is mostly high level players trying to out mind the other guy with stuff, of course everyone is paranoid to the bone with stuff like garga and no one is gonna give that thing free turns, and that's why SPL is such a great place for innovations, because you have to go out of your way to create something new, or the guy in front is dumping you hard. In such a high controlled environment, this is not the way common stuff tells the story
-"but the player feedback"
Shed tail was always gonna hog all the numbers for itself
-"this is like pex in gen 7 and 8"
Honestly, pex in gen 7 is not that bad, but pex in gen 8 is absolutly insuferable and i would ban it alongside a couple of mons, but then again, i have bias against it so i wont expand a lot
The meta right now is on a new state of change, and HOME is closing in, so we don't even know if there's still time for a garga suspect, but its stocks are increasing
Every move in the game has drawbacks after clicking it
Clicking rocks can mean a Hatterene switch-in, or a Rapid Spin/Defog next turn
Clicking U-turn can be dangerous if your opponent stays and launches a strong move, or by Rocky Helmet chip
Even Clicking Shed Tail on something passive could be quickly canceled by a Whirlwind/Dragon Darts Dragapult
Even a fast Knock Off can hit a booster energy spent Iron Valiant ready to set itself up, and be worthless
However, with Salt Cure, the story is completely different
When you use Salt Cure, you already won. It won't miss, it will create an unblockable "Toxic" effect. And now they are forced to switch to get rid of it. Requiring a specific item (Covert Cloak) to block a single move is something that shouldn't be normal. When you clicked Salt Cure, you already put your opponent in a crusade:
- Stay and take more chip damage
- Switch and take the double Salt cure so we go back to start
I have done many "comfort zone" things in my life, and I can assure you that clicking that Salt Cure button is the one that feels the safest.
Maybe we are wrong
Maybe it's not overpowered
But I can assure you one thing:
Salt Cure is more toxic than the move Toxic itself.
Clicking rocks can mean a Hatterene switch-in, or a Rapid Spin/Defog next turn
Clicking U-turn can be dangerous if your opponent stays and launches a strong move, or by Rocky Helmet chip
Even Clicking Shed Tail on something passive could be quickly canceled by a Whirlwind/Dragon Darts Dragapult
Even a fast Knock Off can hit a booster energy spent Iron Valiant ready to set itself up, and be worthless
However, with Salt Cure, the story is completely different
When you use Salt Cure, you already won. It won't miss, it will create an unblockable "Toxic" effect. And now they are forced to switch to get rid of it. Requiring a specific item (Covert Cloak) to block a single move is something that shouldn't be normal. When you clicked Salt Cure, you already put your opponent in a crusade:
- Stay and take more chip damage
- Switch and take the double Salt cure so we go back to start
I have done many "comfort zone" things in my life, and I can assure you that clicking that Salt Cure button is the one that feels the safest.
Maybe we are wrong
Maybe it's not overpowered
But I can assure you one thing:
Salt Cure is more toxic than the move Toxic itself.
Appreciate the reply. All good points. When you say I’m stating the obvious, I mean to do that! I have kind of felt like it’s been fairly obviously broken. Especially for players who are not high ladder. I also think something like Gambit has a lot more counter play than garg. I am new to competitive so I don’t know much about the Toxapex discussion, but it’s interesting that you say it’s very similar!
Thanks for the reply. You make good points. I’ll try to answer each one.
flaw 1: I think the biggest difference between ferrothorn/Toxapex and garg is that salt cure, it’s ability, and tera gives it massive role compression. It can act as a wall,cleaner,rocker, and offensive presence. Most sets for Tox and Ferrothorn are relatively passive compared to garg which seems to always force progress. I also think the counters to Gargancle are much more limited.
flaw 2: I think it’s a shallow argument to say “it can’t sweep your team if you respect it.” I respect Garg A LOT (as seen by my post) and I almost always get destroyed by it barring a misplay. Maybe it’s my style of play, maybe I need to get to a higher elo (I’m around 1600 now), I know it’s beatable if I run sub-NP Hydreigon or covert cloak on a mon, I just find that whenever I’m in team builder it casts the largest shadow.
Flaw 3: good point, but I do think the shed tail ban (which I agree was necessary) opened up a lot for garg. Also curse-tera water has definitely been more popular on the ladder the last two weeks. I’d be curious to see replies in a month.
thanks again for your thoughts!
I'm gonna keep it real with yall: garg is not broken, it was never broken, and it's not even a problem (tera is). Perhaps I feel this way because I am the six star arboliva general, but regardless I will outline counterplay that every team can fit.
1) Covert Cloak
This one is obvious, but I'm gonna be real with yall, it's the one form of counterplay that I find myself using the least, because I think it's unnecessary. Now you can't just slap a cloak on anybody and expect to beat garg. It needs to be on pokemon that could otherwise beat garg if not for salt cure chip damage. Pokemon like NP gholdengo, ID+press corv, dondozo, and amoongus are the main ones. Now I'm not gonna sit here and cope about how great covert cloak is. It's pretty shit and suboptimal outside of salt cure, but it's also the most solid answer to salt cure.
2) Substitute
Sub is a great move even outside of beating garg, but sub doesn't beat garg unless the mon can do so in the first place. Examples include pokemon like Hydreigon with Sub+NP, Volcarona with sub+tera blast ground or giga drain, Rotom-W with Sub+NP, Skeledirge with Sub+tera water/fairy, and of course my goat Sub Arboliva. These pokemon don't want to switch directly in, so you do need to outplay and bring them in on a recover, curse, stealth rock etc. Sometimes they require tera, but garg often uses tera anyway, and you can often force garg to tera with your own great tusk (I know you have one don't lie to me). To make it easier to bring in your sub user vs garg, it can be useful to have a pivot...
3) Slowking
Slowking on its own is not garg counterplay, but you CAN bring it in on salt cure or block and get a slow and safe chilly reception into your garg breaker. Regenerator will heal off all the damage that salt cure did, letting you repeat this process for as long as you have chilly reception pp. In this case, it doesn't have to be a sub mon, it can just be a straight hitter like specs Iron Valiant, CB/loaded dice breloom, specs gholdengo, CB great tusk, CB meowscarada, Specs Zoroark-H (with grass knot) etc. Of course, you don't need to even have a sub mon or a battering ram to bring in safely. Even the next option is good enough...
4) Trick
Tricking any choice item onto garg basically kills it. Sure, it can still click salt cure, but every fat mon can also click their weak attacking move and make """progress""" if you can't punish a tricked garg you have one shit ass team. So as a refresher, who can trick garg? Scarf or Band meowscarada, Scarf Rotom-w, Scarf/Specs Zoroark-H, Scarf/Specs Gholdengo, Scarf Iron Valiant, etc. Some of these mons don't even need a safe switch-in, and can directly afford to take 1 or 2 salt cures and threaten garg out with a trick. Finally, there is another way to punish garg if you catch it clicking a non salt cure move...
5) Encore
Encore admittedly has more limited distribution, but you don't have to sink to the depths to get there. Dragonite and Iron Valiant are top tier pokemon with or without encore, and they can encore garg into rocks/recover/curse etc and use those free turns to set up or throw out attacks.
The bulkier encore user to mention here is scream tail, who is pretty underrated. It can switch into garg, click wish if you switched into salt cure, and encore when they inevitably use the non attacking move, giving you free reign to chip them with dazzling gleam or switch into a stronger mon.
Honorable mentions:
Switching between 2 regen mons and stalling out salt cure pp: Stall finds a way.
Knock off: Garg hates losing leftovers.
Taunt: Obviously not easy to find a taunt mon that can eat repeated salt cures and hurt garg, but taunt is gonna hinder most fat mons and garg is no exception
Hazards: I almost never see garg wear boots, maybe it should? Regardless its neutral to rocks, vulnerable to spikes so stack away.
Offensive Pressure: Some teams just don't give garg room to breathe.
Your own block tera ghost curse garg: you could lose up to 15 lbs in just 2 weeks!
Ting-Lu: Body press is rare and you can whirlwind even if you get blocked. Garg doesn't do much back as you lay up spikes, you can ruination to burn some recovers, and bonus points if you're rest.
I think we all have plenty of options to keep garg at bay. Yes, salt cure makes progress, but if you give any pokemon enough free turns it will make progress. Yes, it's bulky, yall gotta start learning how to beat bulky teams because it is easier than ever with 8 recover pp and bullshit tera. Yes, its ability is great, but don't forget it has a very exploitable rock typing, and it has to use up tera in order to fix it, which means no more tera sweeper nonsense with kingambit, dragonite, volcarona, baxcalibur etc etc. I get yall love tera and I hate it, but don't forget that without tera, garg is shit.
There are plenty of other pokemon in OU that are just as constraining, centralizing, and difficult to play around as garg, especially when you factor in tera. While garg has seen a resurgence in usage and viability with the shed tail ban, it is absolutely possible to have reasonable and varied counterplay to it.
Try arboliva kids...
1) Covert Cloak
This one is obvious, but I'm gonna be real with yall, it's the one form of counterplay that I find myself using the least, because I think it's unnecessary. Now you can't just slap a cloak on anybody and expect to beat garg. It needs to be on pokemon that could otherwise beat garg if not for salt cure chip damage. Pokemon like NP gholdengo, ID+press corv, dondozo, and amoongus are the main ones. Now I'm not gonna sit here and cope about how great covert cloak is. It's pretty shit and suboptimal outside of salt cure, but it's also the most solid answer to salt cure.
2) Substitute
Sub is a great move even outside of beating garg, but sub doesn't beat garg unless the mon can do so in the first place. Examples include pokemon like Hydreigon with Sub+NP, Volcarona with sub+tera blast ground or giga drain, Rotom-W with Sub+NP, Skeledirge with Sub+tera water/fairy, and of course my goat Sub Arboliva. These pokemon don't want to switch directly in, so you do need to outplay and bring them in on a recover, curse, stealth rock etc. Sometimes they require tera, but garg often uses tera anyway, and you can often force garg to tera with your own great tusk (I know you have one don't lie to me). To make it easier to bring in your sub user vs garg, it can be useful to have a pivot...
3) Slowking
Slowking on its own is not garg counterplay, but you CAN bring it in on salt cure or block and get a slow and safe chilly reception into your garg breaker. Regenerator will heal off all the damage that salt cure did, letting you repeat this process for as long as you have chilly reception pp. In this case, it doesn't have to be a sub mon, it can just be a straight hitter like specs Iron Valiant, CB/loaded dice breloom, specs gholdengo, CB great tusk, CB meowscarada, Specs Zoroark-H (with grass knot) etc. Of course, you don't need to even have a sub mon or a battering ram to bring in safely. Even the next option is good enough...
4) Trick
Tricking any choice item onto garg basically kills it. Sure, it can still click salt cure, but every fat mon can also click their weak attacking move and make """progress""" if you can't punish a tricked garg you have one shit ass team. So as a refresher, who can trick garg? Scarf or Band meowscarada, Scarf Rotom-w, Scarf/Specs Zoroark-H, Scarf/Specs Gholdengo, Scarf Iron Valiant, etc. Some of these mons don't even need a safe switch-in, and can directly afford to take 1 or 2 salt cures and threaten garg out with a trick. Finally, there is another way to punish garg if you catch it clicking a non salt cure move...
5) Encore
Encore admittedly has more limited distribution, but you don't have to sink to the depths to get there. Dragonite and Iron Valiant are top tier pokemon with or without encore, and they can encore garg into rocks/recover/curse etc and use those free turns to set up or throw out attacks.
The bulkier encore user to mention here is scream tail, who is pretty underrated. It can switch into garg, click wish if you switched into salt cure, and encore when they inevitably use the non attacking move, giving you free reign to chip them with dazzling gleam or switch into a stronger mon.
Honorable mentions:
Switching between 2 regen mons and stalling out salt cure pp: Stall finds a way.
Knock off: Garg hates losing leftovers.
Taunt: Obviously not easy to find a taunt mon that can eat repeated salt cures and hurt garg, but taunt is gonna hinder most fat mons and garg is no exception
Hazards: I almost never see garg wear boots, maybe it should? Regardless its neutral to rocks, vulnerable to spikes so stack away.
Offensive Pressure: Some teams just don't give garg room to breathe.
Your own block tera ghost curse garg: you could lose up to 15 lbs in just 2 weeks!
Ting-Lu: Body press is rare and you can whirlwind even if you get blocked. Garg doesn't do much back as you lay up spikes, you can ruination to burn some recovers, and bonus points if you're rest.
I think we all have plenty of options to keep garg at bay. Yes, salt cure makes progress, but if you give any pokemon enough free turns it will make progress. Yes, it's bulky, yall gotta start learning how to beat bulky teams because it is easier than ever with 8 recover pp and bullshit tera. Yes, its ability is great, but don't forget it has a very exploitable rock typing, and it has to use up tera in order to fix it, which means no more tera sweeper nonsense with kingambit, dragonite, volcarona, baxcalibur etc etc. I get yall love tera and I hate it, but don't forget that without tera, garg is shit.
There are plenty of other pokemon in OU that are just as constraining, centralizing, and difficult to play around as garg, especially when you factor in tera. While garg has seen a resurgence in usage and viability with the shed tail ban, it is absolutely possible to have reasonable and varied counterplay to it.
Try arboliva kids...
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I was gonna go to sleep, but this hit a nerve in me
From these mons, Gholdengo would rather be running lefties or Air Baloon, corv should be running rocky helmet 99.9% of the time, dondozo needs the boots to not get too hard into hazard range, and amoongus... uh idk what items do most amoongus run these days, they used to run red card for shed tail but got banned, so I guess its back to boots or rocky helmet? Anyway, most of the time you're running covert for garga, and thank god scald is not in the game, outside of garga, you use this if your way to paranoid of anything
Ima need some selling on this, i have tried NP rotom wash with max spa and spe, and then max hp max spe. But my results on both were poo
so this means you need a free turn, therefore, not counter, check, which is fair
Block variants can potentially beat offensive tusk lacking eject pack with proper tera and curse, I know this is cheese and not all gargas run block, but garganacl is already cheese to the point of comedy
As a guy who view Slowkings potential in the meta before it went popular, gotta respect it, it has a ton of utility, but not all teams are gonna pack one, still, I'm gonna give it a pass because at least forces tera and garga still can do much
On the same coin, a player can just predict tricks and sack another mon, sure, this in the end is still not ideal for the garga user and progress will be made, but the road to succesfully trick the garga is harder than you might expect, sure, playing the long game will greatly increase your chances of getting one, but offensive teams really cannot take the time with that, and offensive teams need to hit garga with either coverage or something that cannot be slowed down by salt cure, grass, fighting and ground Pokémon, but most of them still have some dificulty
Honestly, I can't say much here, I only encountered one encore dnite, from the times when encore dnite was a meme,
Honestly, this is more like a personal thing, but I kinda hate that people (from the both sides) disregard the arguments of the other with a "learn how to play" from the "bro just use sound/multihit moves or Pokémon with infiltrator" to the "bro just put covert cloak" like, at least listen to what the other side has to say, sure, something you just wanna rip your eyes out with the amount of blasphemy, but not everyone on the other side is a guy who barely got out of preschool (unless your in 4chan, then, go wild)
So my anger died, and now the tiredness is hitting even harder, so I'm just gonna finish this whole thing up by saying that, sure, garganacl can be managed, and it's not blatantly broken as any of the things that have been banned (all the pokemon that have been banned have been well deserved, and I'm not gonna debate over that) but to say that garga is not a problem, to say that this pokemon that has generated so much discussion is a nothing burger on the grand scheme of thing, is kinda blind
If it makes you feel better, I'm gonna use Arboliva because It's something has my interest, any personal recommendations aside from the Ceruledge core?
252+ SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Garganacl: 362-428 (89.6 - 105.9%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
This is the closest I got to OHKOing that bastard, and its a clear sign we are short on strong special attackers. Volcarona, tera'd water because fuck it might as well STAB, barely eeks out an ohko if you forgo the only thing keeping it sane, because specs is so in style.
Frankly, why was that penguin banned again? HOME probably wont make it not the baddest egg in the carton though.
This is the closest I got to OHKOing that bastard, and its a clear sign we are short on strong special attackers. Volcarona, tera'd water because fuck it might as well STAB, barely eeks out an ohko if you forgo the only thing keeping it sane, because specs is so in style.
Frankly, why was that penguin banned again? HOME probably wont make it not the baddest egg in the carton though.
That penguin outsped almost the entire tier without even needing a Quark Drive boost and had unresisted coverage off of a pretty good 124 Special Attack stat. If you weren't extremely fat on the special side, you weren't walling Bundle. It was so dominant that it didn't even need to adapt to checks with techs like Encore like it does in Ubers, you could just slap on Specs/Boots and call it a day. Walking Wake or Greninja cannot begin to compare with how insane of an offensive Water Iron Bundle was, and I highly doubt Home will change much for it.
It also gets Aurora Veil for some reason, so you can chilly reception into dual screens if that's your thing.
Bundle is broken even on surface level, but it's got a lot going for it when you dig deeper, too. It's not quite as silly as Flutter Mane, but neither of them should ever even come close to OU unless things get really weird.
Bundle is broken even on surface level, but it's got a lot going for it when you dig deeper, too. It's not quite as silly as Flutter Mane, but neither of them should ever even come close to OU unless things get really weird.
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