I said pokemon that can RELIABLY get rid of it.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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I'm not looking for some pointless argument, but I'm genuinely confused by what you mean. How do you get a more reliable form of removal than a Pokemon that can trap and OHKO it? Unless the Corviknight Teras, but then your opponent used up their Tera on a Pokemon that you really don't want to Tera, since it's not like Tera helps Corv do much more anyway and it loses its excellent defensive typing, which is essentially the reason to run Corv in the first place. Or are you referring to how Corv could hold Shed Shell? Shed Shell is extremely rare on Corv and again, Corv would much rather prefer to have Lefties or Rocky Helmet. Besides, Corv gets Knocked about as much as anything else.
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire/Steel/Ghost/Water/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Tera Blast/Shadow Ball
- Hyper Voice
Anyways, as a way to keep the forum animated and happy (and keep avoiding the big 3) i wanna talk about Sylveon just a bit, its a mon that i belive its underrated in a meta where physical phenomenons are roaming around with relentless high dps, but special attackers like Valiant, Dragapult, Moth, volcarona and Gholdengo are all dangerous right now, Sylveon has a small niche for herself in a meta that is slowly but surely moving from Hyper Offense to Bulky Offense to Balance, as a fairy that can bait others into her, since she naturally lost mystical fire and the only move you really want is Hyper Voice, we can get a bit creative with it with tera blast to bait things into her, like gholdengo, skeleridge, and etc. it actually does beat skele 1v1 if packing Shadow Ball, Wish, while often view as an unreliable 2 turn recover, its gonna get more traction to keep treats for longer, especially considering you wanna have as much HP when encountering Garganacls who are more than happy to spam salt cure for days on end
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 320-378 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 254-302 (87.8 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 356-422 (90.3 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (its not even a 50% chance to KO)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 176-207 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (can someone tell me if the ruin calcs have been properly implemented?)
8 SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 280-331 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 320-378 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 254-302 (87.8 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 356-422 (90.3 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (its not even a 50% chance to KO)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 176-207 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (can someone tell me if the ruin calcs have been properly implemented?)
8 SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 280-331 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This calcs are all just examples of the fact that Sylveon can tank, even if it is on an emergency, and she is not pasive as you might belive, thanks to her natural 110 SpA with Pixelate Hyper Voice, which means you cant just throw someting at it and take it just fine
Of course right now im gonna talk about her problems, while not passive, she doesnt have a game winning role, she is just a support mon, a good one, but dont expect to go crazy with it, besides, while she can take a good strong phisical attack, thats really about it, she only takes 1, Valiant can run band or sd, pult can run banded tera ghost dragon force, and etc, and unlike garganacl, she can be forced out with stuff, Moth Kills you if your not planning on luring it, Gholdengo can just take a nasty plot and then god save you
Finally, this is where i talk about good partners for Sylveon, while i wont be mentioning all, mainly because i dont know all of them, theres is a general line for:
is her best friend for its natural ability to check all the things sylveon cant, namely phisical attackers, in return, Sylveon can provide wish support so that it spends less time sleeping, Sylveon can also potentially lure stuff into her, making Dondozo be in less danger trough the match. 
is another great partner who appreciates having health restored to keep checking Tusk and keeping rocks stay up longer, 
alongside wish support can be lethal, considering that now you can be aggresive with it, this means stuff like entering or staying in on clodsire or neutral attacks and break a mon or 2 before repeating, wish also lets gambit potentially drop leftovers in favor of Black Glasses, so that Kowtow Cleave and Sucker punches do more, or even metal coat if you really wanna dump hard on garganaclIn conclussion, while not a metagame beater and in a hostile envireoment, theres a good chunk of mons who can see usage thanks to the unique attributes to the metagame, I really hope you guys like this, im not planning anything with this, just to spread the voice... well... hyper voice (pun not intended)
Expect SV OU tiering survey #2 to be released to the public later today.
No way MF said "Corviknight doesn't lose to these because it can just switch out"
- Cinderace's usage is at 2.18% because the stats you are referring to are covering it's usage in the month of December, Cinderace dropped DECEMBER 30TH, hence the usage rate. It having a 2% usage rate for only one day out of the entire month should speak volumes to it's actual usage rate.
- You seem to be under the impression that since all of the pokemon listed beat Corviknight, but not X other mon, then that means they don't beat Corviknight? Or that Corviknight can just switch out? In a situation where you're consistently forcing a pokemon to switch out, then that means you're beating it.
- How is Magnezone literally not the most reliable Corviknight answer
magnezone is very bad at its job.
first of all its ability to "trap" it is hyndered by the fact that corviknight can just predict that magnezone is coming and then it can just switch before it gets trapped.
and second corviknight is the only steel type in OU that is worth trapping,the other ones can either escape or beat magnezone,meaning that in most matches I will be playing with one less pokemon in my team.\
why do you think that it didn't stay in OU this gen?
literally anything can predict a certain way to change an outcome. this is not and will never be an argument no matter how many times people say it (all the time).
the prediction in this case is also heavily stacked against corv because if it predicts wrong once it gets 100-0ed but magnezone can be predicted against multiple times like this and have only taken some chip.
The thing Corviknight walls can also double you know? It works both ways.
You trap on a roost or double. It's not as difficult as you make it sound. Also traps Kingambit, not as consistent but can be done with Defensive Tera to negate Sucker damage.
Because I too dont want to have a back and forth on this thread, no viable (keyword here) team is or should be losing to Corviknight. The best mons in the tier beat or have ways to beat it. Obviously they're doing a VR slate on the other thread but its ranking is too high there for the reasons stated in sentence before.
Okay so, your main argument of Corviknight being able to survive is "just switch out"
the thing is
if you "switch out" then that mon, who right now has a free turn to do whatever it wants, it can now generate momentum against you by either chipping the opponent, killing it, or setting up something
"but what about u-turn to keep the momentum, this also allows it to escape magnezone if you predict it on the switch"
alright, good argument, here is the problem, your slow, and your gonna be forced to take a hit from what ever is in front of you, and who is to say that enemy is just gonna set up as you u turn anyways
Corviknight has 4 viable attacking moves, Brave Bird being the most common 1, Body Press, that only sees use for stuff like kingambit, moon and chien pao, but gets hard walled by all the ghost types in the tier that can already force you out, Power Trip alongside Bulk Up but then your running a set on the more meme territory and is forced to drop u turn, and iron head if you really wanna lure something i dont really know at this poing
is passive, hit it with a knock off and block his entry, worst case scenario he removes your rocks, and unless your going with glimmora, you can just, put them again if you play patiently, if you really are having trouble with corviknigt (on a gen that got way worse for it) i recommend you stay away from gen 8, where he is all the rage
what about quaquaval's 3.63% usage? is that its usage during december too?if yes then why didn't it drop?
that's how defensive cores work. the pokemon switch when they meet an opponent that they are struggling with.the point is to find a wall breaker that can beat multyple walls at once or at least punch some holes to them.
for example in generation 8 a decent defensive core was corviknigh+toxapex+either landorus-t or hippodawn.
do you know which wall breaker could actually punch some good holes in that core?
volcanion could.
it had a fire stab for the corviknight, a water stab for the ground type and a ground coverage for toxapex.
that was what I call a reliable wall breaker, and the pokemon I have seen here aren't that reliable.
I already explained that magnezone is bad and it doesn't always get the chance to trap it in first place.
I don't think that Zone got any worse at its job, it's just that its job isn't as valuable because contrary to your original post, there are many other viable Pokemon that already pressure Corv. Also I don't feel like "predicting" is ever suitable counterplay to something. Sure, a good Corv player would try to play around getting their Corv trapped by an opposing Zone, but just by existing, Zone prevents Corv from functioning the way that it wants to. For example, let's say that the Corv player wants to Defog away hazards but the other team has a Zone. If Corv predicts the Zone coming in and then switches out, it avoids getting trapped but hazards stay up. The same thing applies to how Corv can never safely Roost against a team with Zone. Similarly, let's say that Corv wants to switch into something like Meowscarada or Roaring Moon but it's afraid of switching into U-turn and then getting trapped by Zone. Does the Corv player risk getting trapped or risk one of their other mons by switching into something like Crunch or Flower Trick? So all of that is to say that even if Corv does avoid getting trapped (and it's impossible to always avoid getting doubled on and trapped by Zone), Corv can't be played freely and it is extremely hindered by the mere threat of Zone.
And yeah, I agree that Zone isn't as valuable right now because there isn't as much for it to trap (and again, along with Corv being pressured by other better Pokemon already, as other users have pointed out), but I don't feel like you should be overly concerned with something being in UU or usage stats. You just seemed to be frustrated that you were having a hard time dealing with Corv, and if your team has a big enough weakness to Corv and you struggle to break past it, you can justify trying Zone, because again, it's as reliable as a form of Corv removal as you could have.
Zone still has its use elsewhere. It's not like rabsca or pawmot where your basically playing with 5.5 pokemon until you revive one. While not being OU based on usage, it's still a good pokemon in it's own right, it just doesn't have enough pokemon it can trap and KO. If your team hates corvinight then it is definitely a useful pick and isn't just a useless pokemon.
Somehow, forcing a 50/50 against corvinight (Whether they risk getting trap or switch out) is very risky. Let's say I have a Meowscadra in against corv. Do you switch out, expecting Zone, or stay in expecting me to also stay in?
Further, what if my Meowscadra U-Turns on the corvinight switch and then get in Magnezone for free?
Okay so , as far as your statement goes , Garganacl can't beat Corvi , cuz it can switch out . Rotom cannot beat corv cuz it can switch out . Cinderance is bad since its usage is low . In that sense , Volcanion is not reliable since well , Blissey walls it . What pokemon goes well with phys def corv in stall ? Well Blissey . There not even one pokemon which can break all walls . Garganacl forces the switch on corvi , which is enough to show that it can indeed beat corvi . Skeledirge beats corvi . It even beats water absorb clodsire . Thunderbolt valiant and gholdengo beat corvi . When we say beating a mon , it means beating it 1v1 . Volcanion was good at is job , yes but it got walled by mons like slowbro . No wallbreaker is perfect . The wallbreakers are meant to break a particular group of mons not the entire category of mons that fall under the banner - walls
Quaquaval had ~7% usage in December, well above the 4.52% cutoff.
Forcing switches for a wallbreaker, even if that wallbreaker has hard counters, oftentimes is enough to exert pressure.
also ,
252 SpA Volcanion Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Toxapex: 122-144 (40.1 - 47.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
not even a 2hko on a sp def invested pex . Toxapex can poison it and switch out (ik its not related to gen 9 but its just for some ref )
“Nothing beats Corviknight because it can just switch out”
Yeah well nothing beats Snom because it can just switch out
Since my Sylveon post will probably get lost due to the random corviknight event, im just gonna do a shameless plug in and say that 
does help 
thanks to wish, thats less roost pp wasted and corv with the guaranteed heal has a good chance to do another move instead of the usual roost, or roost again if you see some rolls with math and stuff, in return, a slow U-turn and no rocks damages lets sylveon come easier against stuff and keep supporting its team, specially since Tusk cant precisesly enter on a Hyper Voice and gets mauled by a brave bird
does help thanks to wish, thats less roost pp wasted and corv with the guaranteed heal has a good chance to do another move instead of the usual roost, or roost again if you see some rolls with math and stuff, in return, a slow U-turn and no rocks damages lets sylveon come easier against stuff and keep supporting its team, specially since Tusk cant precisesly enter on a Hyper Voice and gets mauled by a brave bird
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no way you insisted Cinderace barely sees play based on last month's limited data and are now pretending you haven't just read this months stats
take the L and ensure you know what you're talking about before you post dude this is a dog pile at this point
if the thread can shift I wanna follow up on 1LDK's post how are we feeling about wish passing atm? it's an odd one for me cos while the game is very chip focused right now wish doesn't feel like it's making up for the turns it takes to set up, ur usually losing initiative, eating statuses and being kinda predictable with kill ranges
I mean, it depends on the cast of members, but Sylveon can be a somewhat burn absorbent for the team, I know that when it comes to pure wish passsing,
is better in theory for higher bulk and HP, but scream is passive, Sylveon is not
We had a Pokemon that could break/pressure entire cores on its own rather than as part of a core itself. It was called Chi-Yu.
My main hang-up with Sylveon in this role is that so many mons in the game either have their own recovery or don't seem like they benefit much from it despite the value of Wish-passing as a move at least. Dondozo and Garchomp were mentioned but they feel like momentum sinks when put alongside the also-passive Sylveon, such that I don't know how much they can make-up for that just with the saved turn via healing, plus Sylveon's HP is decently high but Dondozo leans so hard on that stat for bulk that it might lessen the impact of the heal (I'm way too used to defensive mons leaning on high defenses but only-okay HP)
Just quoting this to make sure it doesn't get buried by continued responses to bad Corv talk (of which I am guilty of contributing to in this very post).
Sylveon @ Leftovers
Ability: Pixilate
Tera Type: Fire/Steel/Ghost/Water/Ground
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Wish
- Protect
- Tera Blast/Shadow Ball
- Hyper Voice
Anyways, as a way to keep the forum animated and happy (and keep avoiding the big 3) i wanna talk about Sylveon just a bit, its a mon that i belive its underrated in a meta where physical phenomenons are roaming around with relentless high dps, but special attackers like Valiant, Dragapult, Moth, volcarona and Gholdengo are all dangerous right now, Sylveon has a small niche for herself in a meta that is slowly but surely moving from Hyper Offense to Bulky Offense to Balance, as a fairy that can bait others into her, since she naturally lost mystical fire and the only move you really want is Hyper Voice, we can get a bit creative with it with tera blast to bait things into her, like gholdengo, skeleridge, and etc. it actually does beat skele 1v1 if packing Shadow Ball, Wish, while often view as an unreliable 2 turn recover, its gonna get more traction to keep treats for longer, especially considering you wanna have as much HP when encountering Garganacls who are more than happy to spam salt cure for days on end
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 99-117 (25.1 - 29.6%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Dragapult: 320-378 (100.9 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+1 252 SpA Iron Valiant Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 175-207 (44.4 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Iron Valiant: 254-302 (87.8 - 104.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Iron Moth Sludge Wave vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 198-234 (50.2 - 59.3%) -- 76.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 356-422 (90.3 - 107.1%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO (its not even a 50% chance to KO)
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 176-207 (44.6 - 52.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery (can someone tell me if the ruin calcs have been properly implemented?)
8 SpA Choice Specs Pelipper Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon in Rain: 156-184 (39.5 - 46.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 280-331 (71 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
This calcs are all just examples of the fact that Sylveon can tank, even if it is on an emergency, and she is not pasive as you might belive, thanks to her natural 110 SpA with Pixelate Hyper Voice, which means you cant just throw someting at it and take it just fine
Of course right now im gonna talk about her problems, while not passive, she doesnt have a game winning role, she is just a support mon, a good one, but dont expect to go crazy with it, besides, while she can take a good strong phisical attack, thats really about it, she only takes 1, Valiant can run band or sd, pult can run banded tera ghost dragon force, and etc, and unlike garganacl, she can be forced out with stuff, Moth Kills you if your not planning on luring it, Gholdengo can just take a nasty plot and then god save you
Finally, this is where i talk about good partners for Sylveon, while i wont be mentioning all, mainly because i dont know all of them, theres is a general line for:
In conclussion, while not a metagame beater and in a hostile envireoment, theres a good chunk of mons who can see usage thanks to the unique attributes to the metagame, I really hope you guys like this, im not planning anything with this, just to spread the voice... well... hyper voice (pun not intended)
My main hang-up with Sylveon in this role is that so many mons in the game either have their own recovery or don't seem like they benefit much from it despite the value of Wish-passing as a move at least. Dondozo and Garchomp were mentioned but they feel like momentum sinks when put alongside the also-passive Sylveon, such that I don't know how much they can make-up for that just with the saved turn via healing, plus Sylveon's HP is decently high but Dondozo leans so hard on that stat for bulk that it might lessen the impact of the heal (I'm way too used to defensive mons leaning on high defenses but only-okay HP)
Okay but, fair enough criticism, and while its true that most of the time, 1 more turn with a mon with already recovery is not that important or game changer, it is on mons with no recovery that need to be in constant front, i didnt help by mentioning momentum sinks as textbook partners, if you want an offensive mon with utlity that benefits from wish, a good example would be
is an offensive mon that combined with wishpassing means more turns to spin or knock off, especially since considering that Tusk is a mon that sees a ton of gameplay early game and either dies there or lives by just the tiniest of margins, im not saying that this is the new meta, but it eases a lot the hit taking overall
no,this is not me at all.
my source for that information was pikalytics, this thing says that cinderace's usage is 2.18% and that quaquaval's usage is 3.65%,
is one of them based on last month and the other on this month?
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