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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

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I’m gonna start testing AV pex, wish me luck!

The reason why I wanted to test it is because balance and bulky offense teams start spamming Toxapex+Dark resist to neutralise banded Pao. Toxapex regenerates off every move other than Tera dark crunch. Since you will just be switching in and out, you can use assault vest to utilise the extra special bulk.
 
Lobby Eeveee said:
I’m gonna start testing AV pex, wish me luck!

The reason why I wanted to test it is because balance and bulky offense teams start spamming Toxapex+Dark resist to neutralise banded Pao. Toxapex regenerates off every move other than Tera dark crunch. Since you will just be switching in and out, you can use assault vest to utilise the extra special bulk.
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Obviously you should test whatever you like, but two of the biggest reasons to run Pex are Toxic and Haze and you lose out on both of them by using an AV. Specially Defensive Pex is always good though and it’s so bulky that it doesn’t need an AV. Even with SpDef investment Pex is usually still physically bulky enough to scout against some physical attackers, although CB Chien-Pao is absurdly strong so that’s still very difficult. There might be a mixed spread that’s best for scouting against something like Chien-Pao but still has enough Special bulk to take on the Special Attackers in the tier, if that’s what you want Pex to accomplish on your team, but I don’t know of anything specific. Either way, it’s really team dependent on what Pex set you use and even what item you give it (Black Sludge is standard but things like Rocky Helmet, Covert Cloak, and Boots can all be good) but I would advise against AV.
 
from the trio of sus mons we have, honestly, :Chien Pao: deserves a quick ban and i cant belive we have to still having to fuck with it, sure its rocks weak and sometimes you kinda need extra moves, but it doesnt even matter because 1 SD or 1 Choice Band, and he can flinch his way out of stuff, 424 from the start is no joke, is not just fast, is the second fastest mon right now behind dragapult, but oh oh, ice shard and where is that dragapult now?

You cant stall it defensevly because 1, your biggest fat wall dies to 2 tera dark cb crunches, so you need to sack something to get a clean switch, and i know you people gonna laught at me, but recover chien pao means 1 more turn, i dont care that is frail, in the context of a stall team, 1 turn that he can survive toxic damage means another turn where you need to put something at risk

And dont even get me started on Webs, I know its an all or nothing start, but sd and webs ands its over, its gonna be a matter of time before we start seeing people using chopple berry just to shit on Breloom who thinks he has it cornered

This is the only reason why Liquidation + Body Press on Dondozo is gonna be better than Curse + Wave Crash on the long run

as for the other 2

:Gholdengo: like i said a million times, its frustratiing but we have more than enough counter play in just stopping using standard corviknigh and start using something better, its decent on speed, and make it rain is busted, but honestly, the only hard thing is to guess whats the set, and unlike stuff like gen 7 kartana, gen 8 kartana, or gen 10 kartana (yes i really hate this mon), its not inmideatly treatening nor game ender in the slighest, i could see a suspect going on but yeah

:Garganacl: honestly, this is a mix of the other too where it forces switches and advances by existing and its frustrating to fight, but honeslty, its just 1 guess you have to take, tera water? or tera fairy? because that garga IS gonna tera, because rock sucks, and that aliviates a lot of pressure overall, not too mention that its Spedef is exploitable, and coverage is really not an issue in this meta, are you gonna have to play for 2 hours? probably? it is beatable? sure
 
1LDK said:
from the trio of sus mons we have, honestly, :Chien Pao: deserves a quick ban and i cant belive we have to still having to fuck with it, sure its rocks weak and sometimes you kinda need extra moves, but it doesnt even matter because 1 SD or 1 Choice Band, and he can flinch his way out of stuff, 424 from the start is no joke, is not just fast, is the second fastest mon right now behind dragapult, but oh oh, ice shard and where is that dragapult now?

You cant stall it defensevly because 1, your biggest fat wall dies to 2 tera dark cb crunches, so you need to sack something to get a clean switch, and i know you people gonna laught at me, but recover chien pao means 1 more turn, i dont care that is frail, in the context of a stall team, 1 turn that he can survive toxic damage means another turn where you need to put something at risk

And dont even get me started on Webs, I know its an all or nothing start, but sd and webs ands its over, its gonna be a matter of time before we start seeing people using chopple berry just to shit on Breloom who thinks he has it cornered

This is the only reason why Liquidation + Body Press on Dondozo is gonna be better than Curse + Wave Crash on the long run

as for the other 2

:Gholdengo: like i said a million times, its frustratiing but we have more than enough counter play in just stopping using standard corviknigh and start using something better, its decent on speed, and make it rain is busted, but honestly, the only hard thing is to guess whats the set, and unlike stuff like gen 7 kartana, gen 8 kartana, or gen 10 kartana (yes i really hate this mon), its not inmideatly treatening nor game ender in the slighest, i could see a suspect going on but yeah

:Garganacl: honestly, this is a mix of the other too where it forces switches and advances by existing and its frustrating to fight, but honeslty, its just 1 guess you have to take, tera water? or tera fairy? because that garga IS gonna tera, because rock sucks, and that aliviates a lot of pressure overall, not too mention that its Spedef is exploitable, and coverage is really not an issue in this meta, are you gonna have to play for 2 hours? probably? it is beatable? sure
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Ngl slightly worried if pao gets banned that ghost types will go even crazier.
 
5ADCE8BD-B4CA-4AD6-9CF4-2B3B3260AD50.jpeg

We have new mechanical interaction information that is relevant to a few Pokemon in SV OU!
 
I wonder of what'd happen in the case of the return of Toxic. ofc, Blissey would be better, but I think it wouldn't deserve stall as the loss of Heal Bell/Aromatherapy was considerable.
 
AndViet said:
It’s still a popular physical offensive mon especially in a rain team but you still have better options namely Chein Pao, Dragonite, Cinderace, Roaring Moon and probably CB or Bulk Up Great Tusk. It’s probably all comes down to team build. Like it hasn’t dropped to UU.
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according to pikalytics quaquaval's usage is 3.63% meaning that it will drop to UU by the end of the month.(weird, I always thought that if one starter drops to UU that would probably be meowscarada due to how fragile she is).

are people scared of azumaril that much?
 
Finally the buffs Chien Pao needed. Chien Pao is one of the few Pokémon to resist both of Chien Pao's STABs. If you're tired of seeing Chien Pao, now's the time to start using him!

...on a serious note, while Tera Dark CB Pao Crunch still 2HKOs opposing CB Pao, in the mirror match this changes a lot of OHKO / 2HKO thresholds for non Sacred Sword hits.
 
Soiramio3000 said:
according to pikalytics quaquaval's usage is 3.63% meaning that it will drop to UU by the end of the month.(weird, I always thought that if one starter drops to UU that would probably be meowscarada due to how fragile she is).

are people scared of azumaril that much?
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Meow has a great speed tier and immediate power to pressure with band flower trick or protean attacks. Quaq is kinda weak and needs several turns to set up.
 
Why I believe we need a Garganacl Suspect Test in the near future:

Garganacl is a very unique Pokémon with access to a great signature ability and move that makes it very easy to fit on most team structures withouth a big opportunity cost relatively to other Pokémon due to just how good it is.

It is able to wall Choice Specs Dragapult, Skeledirge, Iron Moth, Some Iron Valiant sets and Volcarona, while sitting on basically every passive Pokémon forever due to Status Immunity. Garganacl is able to wall many more pokémon with the use of Tera, which makes it unkillable when your tera type has a good match-up, this alone can be a problem, since Garganacl can be played intelligently with protect, as it is one of the few Pokémon in the tier nothing truly ohkos; therefore it shares the competitiveness problem Melmetal had in gen 8, Garganacl is able to get a decent tradeoff with salt cure on every 1v1 match-up, which not only makes it a bit uncompetitive but also makes it even harder to force out, because if you switch to your garganacl check, losing a lot of HP to salt cure, garga will just protect, switch out and repeat the cycle. Even if it is hit supereffectively and is forced to switch, it is very easy to bring it in on a passive pokemon and heal back to full HP.

Currently, the only Pokémon immune to Salt Cure´s secondary effect are Shield Dust Pokémon, a list that consists of Three Unviable Bug type Pokémon, all weak to Rock.

Adding Covert Cloak to a Garganacl check (which makes it immune to salt cure´s secondary effect), seemed like reliable counterplay at the beginning, with the same applying to switch stalling Salt Cure on bulkier teams. Both of these examples are flawed counterplay, as Garganacl started adapting to these 2, with new sets that for me simply push it over the edge:

Counterplay Method 1: Covert Cloak

1673974629515.png


Gholdengo is currently the Pokémon that utilizes Covert Cloak better, not only because it is a Garganacl Check but because it benefitts from being immune to Clodsire´s Poison Jab poisoning odds after using Tera Flying or because it is immune to Breloom´s Bulldoze Speed Lowering effect, among other things.

Unfortunately, and for the Surprise of many, this dedicated set loses to a very consistent Garganacl set, which does not have to face Covert Cloak Gholdengo to be good:

1673974890487.png

This set, among other Tera Water sets, is able to beat Covert Cloak Gholdengo as the Water type + Purifying Salt allows you to resist both of Gholdengo´s stabs. While setting up on its face, even against Nasty Plot versions to boost Earthquake´s Power in case Gholdengo doesn´t use Tera and Salt Cure Direct damage in case Gholdengo chooses to use Tera Flying.

"Well, can´t I run Covert Cloak on a different Pokémon?"

Sure, go ahead, you will be commiting to an item that is useless outside of the Garganacl match-up (because only Gholdengo truly beneffits from Cloak enough to justify running it outside of Garganacl match-up). Potential Pokémon that would enjoy covert Cloak like Corviknight or Dondozo, really need a lot of team support to be able to run these items, since if you get knocked off or hazard pressured you will just be in a worse position.

(Not to mention that with the right Tera, Garganacl could even set up and 1v1 other Covert Cloak Pokémon.)



Counterplay Method 2: Switch Stalling
1673975476921.png


Switch Stalling is the more consistent method of beating Garganacl, as at least it doesn´t require you to use a specific item.

Unfortunately, it does require you to run a specific set of Pokémon, (at least one regenerator Pokémon) which most offensive teams can not fit.

If you have a double regenerator core and managed to keep hazards off the field or run HDB on both, you will simply have to run, Clear Smog on your Amoonguss, Haze on your Toxapex or Chilling Water on your Alomomola to beat it! Right?

Wrong!

1673975858248.png


It seems like Garganacl has one more trick up the sleeve, as it can utilize Block to prevent it´s other counterplay method, switching around. With this, Garganacl is able to trap Regenerator Pokémon or any other group of Salt Cure neutral walls you might attempt to wall it with. Very few walls have methods to escape trapping moves, the most notable being Corviknight with U-turn which is a steel type, taking more damage from salt cure.


If you know better counterplay to Garganacl please let me know, because this abomination has infested High ladder and every day that passes is a new day where you get counterteamed by a new set!

If it wasn´t clear already, the reason Garganacl wasn´t seen as a broken Pokémon immediately in the post-ban metagame was because the meta simply had not settled and counterplay was still being explored. Now that we know that the main 2 counterplay ideas are flawed, I think it is pretty safe to say that this Pokémon deserves at least a suspect test in the near future!
 
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Soiramio3000 said:
according to pikalytics quaquaval's usage is 3.63% meaning that it will drop to UU by the end of the month.(weird, I always thought that if one starter drops to UU that would probably be meowscarada due to how fragile she is).

are people scared of azumaril that much?
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I think Meow is just more splashable and has a more valuable niche currently as a fast utility Pokémon (until the Greninja raid, at least) plus Flower Trick is a handy tech with ID/BU BP sets everywhere. Quav needs some support to work consistently and has more competition as a setup sweeper/cleaner, even with Moxie. 85/80/75 defenses also isn’t exactly a tank compared to Meow’s 76/70/70.
 
Mega Breloom said:
Meow has a great speed tier and immediate power to pressure with band flower trick or protean attacks. Quaq is kinda weak and needs several turns to set up.
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quaquaval doesn't need to set up.
just switch to something that can't kill it and does not have the water absorb ability and click aqua step.
if that thing dies you get both +1 speed and +1 attack and then you can snowball your way to victory.

it is an excellent cleaner. and has okay defences and great coverage.(it can also rapid spin).

on +1 speed with a jolly nature you can outrun anything that isn't holding choice scarf or has boosted its speed through agility.

I am not going to comment on meow because we will end up switching the point of the conversation.
 
Highv0ltag3 said:
Why I believe we need a Garganacl Suspect Test in the near future:

Garganacl is a very unique Pokémon with access to a great signature ability and move that makes it very easy to fit on most team structures withouth a big opportunity cost relatively to other Pokémon due to just how good it is.

It is able to wall Choice Specs Dragapult, Skeledirge, Iron Moth, Some Iron Valiant sets and Volcarona, while sitting on basically every passive Pokémon forever due to Status Immunity. Garganacl is able to wall many more pokémon with the use of Tera, which makes it unkillable when your tera type has a good match-up, this alone can be a problem, since Garganacl can be played intelligently with protect, as it is one of the few Pokémon in the tier nothing truly ohkos; therefore it shares the competitiveness problem Melmetal had in gen 8, Garganacl is able to get a decent tradeoff with salt cure on every 1v1 match-up, which not only makes it a bit uncompetitive but also makes it even harder to force out, because if you switch to your garganacl check, losing a lot of HP to salt cure, garga will just protect, switch out and repeat the cycle. Even if it is hit supereffectively and is forced to switch, it is very easy to bring it in on a passive pokemon and heal back to full HP.

Currently, the only Pokémon immune to Salt Cure´s secondary effect are Shield Dust Pokémon, a list that consists Three Unviable Bug type Pokémon, all weak to Rock.

Adding Covert Cloak to a Garganacl check (which makes it immune to salt cure´s secondary effect), seemed like reliable counterplay at the beginning, with the same applying to switch stalling Salt Cure on bulkier teams. Both of these examples are flawed counterplay, however, as Garganacl started adapting to these 2, with new sets that for me simply push it over the edge:

Counterplay Method 1: Covert Cloak

View attachment 484753

Gholdengo is currently the Pokémon that utilizes Covert Cloak better, not only because it is a Garganacl Check but because it benefitts from being immune to Clodsire´s Poison Jab poisoning odds after using Tera Flying or because it is immune to Breloom´s Bulldoze Speed Lowering effect, among other things.

Unfortunately, and for the Surprise of many this dedicated set loses to a very consistent Garganacl set, which does not have to face Covert Cloak Gholdengo to be good:

View attachment 484755
This set, among other Tera Water sets, is able to beat Covert Cloak Gholdengo as the Water type + Purifying Salt allows you to resist both of Gholdengo´s stabs. While setting up on its face, even against Nasty Plot versions to boost Earthquake´s Power in case Gholdengo doesn´t use Tera and Salt Cure Direct damage in case Gholdengo chooses to use Tera Flying.

"Well, can´t I run Covert Cloak on a different Pokémon?"

Sure, go ahead, you will be commiting to an item that is useless outside of the Garganacl match-up (because only Gholdengo truly beneffits from Cloak enough to justify running it outside of Garganacl match-up). Potential Pokémon that would enjoy covert Cloak like Corviknight or Dondozo, really need a lot of team support to be able to run these items, since if you get knocked off or hazard pressured you will just be in a worse position.

(Not to mention that with the right Tera, Garganacl could even set up and 1v1 other Covert Cloak Pokémon.)



Counterplay Method 2: Switch Stalling
View attachment 484756

Switch Stalling is the more consistent method of beating Garganacl, as at least it doesn´t require you to use a specific item.

Unfortunately, it does require you to run a specific set of Pokémon, (at least one regenerator Pokémon) which most offensive teams can not fit.

If you have a double regenerator core and managed to keep hazards off the field or run HDB on both, you will simply have to run, Clear Smog on your Amoonguss, Haze on your Toxapex or Chilling Water on your Alomomola to beat it! Right?

Wrong!

View attachment 484757

It seems like Garganacl has one more trick up the sleeve, as it can utilize Block to prevent it´s other counterplay method, switching around. With this, Garganacl is able to trap Regenerator Pokémon or any other group of Salt Cure neutral walls you might attempt to wall it with. Very few walls have methods to escape trapping moves, the most notable being Corviknight with U-turn which is a steel type, taking more damage from salt cure.


If you know better counterplay to Garganacl please let me know, because this abomination has infested High ladder and every day that passes is a new day where you get counterteamed by a new set!

If it wasn´t clear already, the reason Garganacl wasn´t seen as a broken Pokémon immediately in the post-ban metagame was because the meta simply had not settled and counterplay was still being explored. Now that we know that the main 2 counterplay ideas are flawed, I think it is pretty safe to say that this Pokémon deserves at least a suspect test in the near future!
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fully agreed with all of this, except switch stalling isn't exactly a good form of garganacl counterplay because it just easily gets off more salt cures and more chip damage on the opposing team. unless it's switch stalling with fat mons running covert cloak (or, as you mentioned, regenerator mons) then it's really not that good of a solution. it also can use the free switch as an opportunity to set up an iron defense for free so it can clean late-game with body press. this pokemon has no answers aside from simply out-offensing it and that seriously worries me. i am really hoping a suspect test is ran for this thing because i don't in any way see how it's really healthy
 
Mikegengsta said:
Ngl slightly worried if pao gets banned that ghost types will go even crazier.
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we still have ting-lu to keep them in check it's ok. still gonna be a lot more problematic but they'll still have defensive counterplay even after chien-pao's ban, and said form of counterplay is one of the best shadow ball sponges around. wouldn't be surprised if some ghosts got suspected/quickbanned when chien-pao gets the boot however
 
Mega Breloom said:
Meow has a great speed tier and immediate power to pressure with band flower trick or protean attacks. Quaq is kinda weak and needs several turns to set up.
Click to expand...

I think Bulk Up Quaquaval sets are pretty bad because they take way too long to get going, and if you're running BU/Roost/Taunt your coverage will obviously be pitiful. However I've been using Choice Band Quaquaval and it's a very threatening Pokemon, a lot of teams get swept by it very quickly and it's strong enough to also function pretty well as a wall breaker. Toxapex walls it but otherwise a CB set with Aqua Step/CC/Ice Spinner/Aqua Jet is very very powerful as a cleaner, revenge killer, and wall breaker. 295 is a pretty good speed tier too, outspeeding max speed Gholdengo and outspeeding Dragapult after 1 Aqua Step. Rain support + Tera Water can also really push it over the edge and make the frailer water resists like Dragapult, Roaring Moon, Meowscarada etc. snap in half.

Personally I find it to be much more impressive than Meowscarada but if it falls to UU then so be it, I'm sure it would be very threatening in that tier.
 
I think the covert cloak strategy is just as flawed as switch stalling, but as I said, both are flawed and only work against standard Garganack sets.
 
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