i know it gets taunt, but you can still try if your faster or have something in planned
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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you're undervaluing just how important full status immunity really is, a paralyzed pex is basically taking a dice roll every time it wants to click recover on a threat, similarly, a sleeping toxapex really cannot check a whole lot unless it wants to fish for an early wakeup that can bite it in the ass really easily
gonna be honest, even though it can be switched arround, salt cure is much stronger than pex's scald + knock duo, especially when you consider pex is usually only running one or the other, 1/8th per turn is literally double damage compared to burns 1/16, and the 100% proc rate compared to scalds 30% makes a big difference even if people joke about it being higher, also consider the metagame each is in, comparatively, pex had to deal with tons of great regenerator mons such as slowbro, torn, g-slowking in gen 8, tangrowth in gen 7, as well as other pex, all of which were mostly fine with taking burns as they could just regen off the damage, in addition to pokemon such as magic guard clef, who was completely immune to burn damage and thus could just sit on toxapex. meanwhile with garganacl theres only really 1 regen mon that actually wants to switch into it in amoongus, and there is not a single magic guard pokemon in the game.
Just 1 shot it isnt the best strategy and actually is an arguement for banning it if thats what you believe to be valid counterplay, also what mon that relies on non damage and is faster then ape?
The thing I love most about tera is, back in gen 8 when I use to build a team and it was weak against a certain Pokemon i.e Volcarona, I use to have to change a Pokemon or change a couple of Pokemon on that team because after you change one mon your weak to another Pokemon. Now I can just tera to cover those weakness. With 6 tera Pokemon options I can cover a lot of weakness actually.
I guess what I’m missing here is what exactly makes Espathra “uncompetitive” vs. “good”? When I think of things that I want to see banned, I’m looking at the top threats - Pokemon that you need to account for in teambuilding because they are on every other team and in isolation amazing. Chi-Yu, Chien-Pao, etc. are just way too fast and strong where you need to bring dedicated checks/counters otherwise you lose.
Espathra is very much a “give an inch take a yard” Pokemon, where if you give the Espathra a little room to breathe it can win a game. I think these are healthy for the metagame as they punish ultra-passive play (the most boring play style to fight) and they keep choice users honest about the move they lock themselves into. I don’t see how that is different to other premier setup sweepers, and I’m unconvinced that Espathra even does the job better than some of those (Volcarona, DNite, Roaring Moon, etc.). That was my main argument - that the power level and centralization of this thing to me does not approach ban-worthy.
I guess what I’m asking is if one of you can elaborate on why/how the Pokemon is “uncompetitive” even if it’s not overpowered (ie Chi-Yu) or over centralizing (ie Gholdengo) or RNG promoting (ie Swagger). I feel like that’s the crux of the disagreement and I’m missing it.
As everyone else is throwing in their opinions I feel as if I should as well.
WHY AM I STILL HERE TIER
BAN IT - There isnt a single argument on why this thing should still be in OU. Hits harder then anything in the tier ever, braindead to use, and due to it hitting so hard it has a substantial lack of counter play besides, "LOL JUST BE FASTER/USE PRIO" which is usually the sign of a broken mon. Removes an entire playstyle from existing which is gonna be a common thing for the mons on the radar here that I would agree to ban.
BAN IT - While not the immediate powerhouse like Chi-Yu it makes up for that with its hyper scaling and multiple sets. The only counterplay to this mon is to have 1 (sometimes more) dedicated mons to deal with its stupid shenanigans. You cant stall it, cant wall it, it can abuse revival blessing, it has the highest base power move in the game, amazing typing...the list goes on. No singular pokemon should invalidate multiple playstyles by just existing.
BAN IT - Similar to Ape/Chi this mon by itself removes entire strategies from existing and is responsible for warping the meta completely around itself. Its existence in the tier severely limits teambuilding to the point where if a mon has a gimmick that doesnt involve damage you might as well not use it. A combination of its expert denial of hazard removal with its absolutely broken ability and absurd typing make it one of the dumbest mons to ever be allowed in OU in the current year. While its harder to see its negative impact because its not the massive offensive threat like Ape/Chi if you are gonna ban them for removing entire strategies Gholdengo shouldnt have an excuse. On a side note with one of its main threats (Chi Yu) being banned without a shadow of a doubt there will be literally no reason to not use this thing. While I understand usage rate isnt always a statistic to determine a mons brokeness if a mon has a near 50% usage rate WITH the strongest threat to it in the tier I cant imagine how oppressive it will be when its main counterplay is removed. Remember, a mon can be broken without it directly just 6-0ing your team. This brings me to...
BAN IT - Shed tail into sweeper (with or without screens) is incredibly degenerate. Combine this with multiple sweepers who abuse tera in the tier and you have games that are lost in the first 1-2 turns due to how easy the thing breaks certain mons. While not as dumb as the other ones in this section its more of an enabler rather then the visible problem. If it doesnt go; shed tail needs to. Absolutely breaks other mons that I believe without this specific mon, wouldnt even be suspected.
BAN IT - Almost every reason that I already listed for Chi-Yu applies to this pokemon except on a physical aspect. The only reason it isnt seeing as much play is because the fish is both better and more noticable. The second fish gets banned this will see an incredible upsurge. No reason to keep this in the tier if fish leaves.
IM ON HERE BECAUSE OF CYCLIZAR TIER
NO BAN - This thing is basically only here because of a combination of defensive mons being near unplayable with the current threats in OU and with shed tail support. With that about to go the thing should be fine with the problem mons letting the meta be a bit more flexible.
NO BAN - Once again this mon is mostly a problem due to a certain lizard and his signature move. Almost everything I said in the Dragonite section applies to this mon as well. Also holds the record for the fastest banned mon in UU tier to my knowledge (38 minutes lol)
I DONT PLAY AGAINST IT ENOUGH/UNDERSTAND ITS IMPLICATIONS THAT IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE A DECISION
If I ever have an issue with this mon I just put a cloak on something. While I understand how strong it is it feels like its the only viable defensive mon in the tier bar the bowl deer. If it becomes an issue after the obvious bans I will change my tune but right now I fail to see its impact in the metagame.
FINAL THOUGHTS
Current OU is held together by chewing gum and tooth picks. The tera suspect came at one of the worst times and during that time the bad state of the meta was plain as day. Multiple mons need to go ASAP otherwise the meta will continue to degenerate. Multiple playstyles and strategies are unsuable, multiple mons win games by just being fast and clicking high BP moves, and with tera staying legal sometimes normal counterplay against said mons doesnt exist because they can just remove their weaknesses on the fly or have combos with other broken mons that make the only counterplay be faster/use prio. There is no reason to walk on eggshells so much when the effects of allowing these things in the tier are as plain as day. When HOME comes around sure resuspect them but until that time for the love of god we need some major changes because this has been one of most broken formats I have ever played.
WHY AM I STILL HERE TIER
BAN IT - There isnt a single argument on why this thing should still be in OU. Hits harder then anything in the tier ever, braindead to use, and due to it hitting so hard it has a substantial lack of counter play besides, "LOL JUST BE FASTER/USE PRIO" which is usually the sign of a broken mon. Removes an entire playstyle from existing which is gonna be a common thing for the mons on the radar here that I would agree to ban. BAN IT - While not the immediate powerhouse like Chi-Yu it makes up for that with its hyper scaling and multiple sets. The only counterplay to this mon is to have 1 (sometimes more) dedicated mons to deal with its stupid shenanigans. You cant stall it, cant wall it, it can abuse revival blessing, it has the highest base power move in the game, amazing typing...the list goes on. No singular pokemon should invalidate multiple playstyles by just existing. BAN IT - Similar to Ape/Chi this mon by itself removes entire strategies from existing and is responsible for warping the meta completely around itself. Its existence in the tier severely limits teambuilding to the point where if a mon has a gimmick that doesnt involve damage you might as well not use it. A combination of its expert denial of hazard removal with its absolutely broken ability and absurd typing make it one of the dumbest mons to ever be allowed in OU in the current year. While its harder to see its negative impact because its not the massive offensive threat like Ape/Chi if you are gonna ban them for removing entire strategies Gholdengo shouldnt have an excuse. On a side note with one of its main threats (Chi Yu) being banned without a shadow of a doubt there will be literally no reason to not use this thing. While I understand usage rate isnt always a statistic to determine a mons brokeness if a mon has a near 50% usage rate WITH the strongest threat to it in the tier I cant imagine how oppressive it will be when its main counterplay is removed. Remember, a mon can be broken without it directly just 6-0ing your team. This brings me to... BAN IT - Shed tail into sweeper (with or without screens) is incredibly degenerate. Combine this with multiple sweepers who abuse tera in the tier and you have games that are lost in the first 1-2 turns due to how easy the thing breaks certain mons. While not as dumb as the other ones in this section its more of an enabler rather then the visible problem. If it doesnt go; shed tail needs to. Absolutely breaks other mons that I believe without this specific mon, wouldnt even be suspected. BAN IT - Almost every reason that I already listed for Chi-Yu applies to this pokemon except on a physical aspect. The only reason it isnt seeing as much play is because the fish is both better and more noticable. The second fish gets banned this will see an incredible upsurge. No reason to keep this in the tier if fish leaves.IM ON HERE BECAUSE OF CYCLIZAR TIER
NO BAN - This thing is basically only here because of a combination of defensive mons being near unplayable with the current threats in OU and with shed tail support. With that about to go the thing should be fine with the problem mons letting the meta be a bit more flexible. NO BAN - Once again this mon is mostly a problem due to a certain lizard and his signature move. Almost everything I said in the Dragonite section applies to this mon as well. Also holds the record for the fastest banned mon in UU tier to my knowledge (38 minutes lol)I DONT PLAY AGAINST IT ENOUGH/UNDERSTAND ITS IMPLICATIONS THAT IT NEEDS TO BE BANNED WELL ENOUGH TO MAKE A DECISION
If I ever have an issue with this mon I just put a cloak on something. While I understand how strong it is it feels like its the only viable defensive mon in the tier bar the bowl deer. If it becomes an issue after the obvious bans I will change my tune but right now I fail to see its impact in the metagame.FINAL THOUGHTS
Current OU is held together by chewing gum and tooth picks. The tera suspect came at one of the worst times and during that time the bad state of the meta was plain as day. Multiple mons need to go ASAP otherwise the meta will continue to degenerate. Multiple playstyles and strategies are unsuable, multiple mons win games by just being fast and clicking high BP moves, and with tera staying legal sometimes normal counterplay against said mons doesnt exist because they can just remove their weaknesses on the fly or have combos with other broken mons that make the only counterplay be faster/use prio. There is no reason to walk on eggshells so much when the effects of allowing these things in the tier are as plain as day. When HOME comes around sure resuspect them but until that time for the love of god we need some major changes because this has been one of most broken formats I have ever played.
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So i was checking and your right, like, the faster mons do pack status moves but in my personal opinion thats a waste of a slot, and then the slowers gets taunt, i still belive that is not that problematic, im not talking about OHKO, but 2HKO and taking a hit even at the skin of your theeth is okay to be honest, i can see the suspect but i personally would be voting no ban (if i get reqs in first place because fuck man this kinda hard lmao)
By definition that is problematic lol. If you cant list reliable counterplay/the counterplay you list is incorrect its either confirmation bias or lack of understanding why a mon is considered broken.
The fact that it's worse than other setup sweepers is a big part of it. It's just not a very good Pokémon at the role that you'd want to bring it for, unless you manage to pull a fast one on your opponent. Existing in a quantum state where you're simultaneously barely viable, and also extremely dangerous, is not a healthy place for a Pokémon to be.
To me, at least, a competitive offensive Pokemon is capable of being threatening on a naked switch-in - and 1 turn of buffs for Espathra really doesn't bring it up to the level of "competitive" sweepers. You really should be bringing something else instead of the stupid chicken! Any of the mons you listed are way more likely to win you the game. Espathra's just better at creating wins where they shouldn't be.
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Im happy cyclizar, chi-yu and annihilape will likely get qbed.
I hope Chien-Pao will also get the boot though. While not as strong as chi-yu, its still stronger than most other mons (it 2hkos corviknigth after rocks with icycle crash and jolly nature. much stronger than for example adamant roaring moon or baxcalibur; see calcs) and has one of the best speed tiers.
I also think Iron valiant is broken due to its versatility and hope it gets suspected at some point.
I hope Chien-Pao will also get the boot though. While not as strong as chi-yu, its still stronger than most other mons (it 2hkos corviknigth after rocks with icycle crash and jolly nature. much stronger than for example adamant roaring moon or baxcalibur; see calcs) and has one of the best speed tiers.
252 Atk Choice Band Sword of Ruin Chien-Pao Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 183-216 (45.8 - 54.1%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 159-187 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 157-186 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Roaring Moon Crunch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 159-187 (39.8 - 46.8%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Baxcalibur Icicle Crash vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 157-186 (39.3 - 46.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I also think Iron valiant is broken due to its versatility and hope it gets suspected at some point.
I wanna touch on Valiant for a sec, how do you guys like to counter it, my favorite way to fully counter is using my favorite defensive core this metagame, the core of
+ 
checks every single special variant, and checks the phisical ones if valiant hasnt SD yet, she OHKOS with HV, unless valiant gets a calm mind then the chances drops from 100% to 75% the only thing unboosted that can damage sylveon is the extremly rare Expert Belt/Choice band Posion Jab, but physycal variants of iron valiant are low if valiant is in fact the rarer sets, counters the other rare valiant sets and roaring moon, because despite being quad weak to fairy, moon OHKOs back with EQI made a post a long time ago about this core, not the overall best, but give it a try sometime
espathra could only possibly need banned because shed tail/cyclizar needs banned. it's doomed to eventual UUBL forever with baxcalibur
the problem with annihilape is quite obviously just rage fist. it would be so much healthier with the move just banned. for one there already aren't many great taunter options in the tier. variety of other issues. read my sig.
Forgot Defog was an "entire strategy" rather than just a move
Sure Chi-Yu is this thing's premier check, but it's so good that it means you wouldn't use anything else over it. Volc can use this thing as setup bait, Iron Moth can take a hit and is not the sort of thing you'd want to give a scarf to, Ting-Lu takes nothing from scarf shadow ball, Tusk and Treads can spin and threaten it. Seriously, just think outside the Corv box
Personal opinions on the radar (Mid elo perspective so feel free to laugh)
Quickban. Don't need to explain much, simply a metagame warping offensive threat that needs minimal support to break through any wall. Scarf is almost intolerable for offensive teams, and specs is almost intolerable for the few balance structures that can deal with scarf. Nasty plot is less common but makes me cry whenever I see it. Turn this guy into sushi.
Suspect test, ideally highest priority. As someone who prefers balance teams, it feels like I have to jump through so many hoops and make quite a few gambles to actually deal with this, especially with the lack of fast status users in the tier. However, if you have a plan, it is workable - in isolation. What pushes Annihilape over the edge is support from things like Screens, Shed Tail or Pawmot, which let it set up even more freely and ignore even more damage. Thanks to the checks that exist on defensive teams, and its potential for poor matchups making running it kind of a gamble, I would want a larger discussion about it, but I would probably vote ban unless something major came up.
Suspect test. I'm a bit more conflicted on this one; with how the defensive profile of the tier is right now with a lot of strong unaware pokemon, it's not always possible for pokemon to get in once and have a guaranteed sweep, with the only real exceptions being Espathra and Annihilape to some extent. Dragapult also exists, though there are plenty of things that can sit on it even with a substitute. Still, Cyclizar's presence makes the majority of walls feel very unsafe - any turn spent recovering could lead to a Cyclizar coming in and Shed Tailing up for free, and its ability to keep doing this makes offensive teams very difficult to deal with.
Suspect test. The checks are ubiquitous, but it's not clear if they're enough. I feel like I almost always need to save my teras just for this, because most walls will be 2HKOd by neutral hits after minimal chip, and the way things like Cyclizar and Annihilape work makes it very hard to heal off chip. However, it dies if you breath on it too hard even when it teras, and since it can't often break walls open up front without super effective moves, it's basically reserved to lategame cleanups against defensive teams; if you've been outplaying all game, Chien Pao will most likely not turn the tide, but its ability to capitalize off any chip makes it debatably broken.
Suspect test, but low priority. Tera Normal ESpeed is strong, and creates limits in the builder on most team styles. Its wide movepool also makes counterplay feel shaky. However, Dragonite hates helmets and hates unawares, which are both on most teams. It's also quite weak to status; pokemon like Rotom-W and Skeledirge are very good at living one hit and putting on a wisp, which will stop its Espeeds from achieving all that much. The other Dragonite problem is that it's much weaker if it has to switch out; it can't keep multiscale up in this meta, and when it pops, its previously considerable bulk becomes very mediocre. Still, even with the counterplay, it requires a huge amount of respect in both the builder and in gameplay, and I'm still not sure if the counterplay that exists is enough.
No Action. It's a great wall that can chip things down very consistently, but requires a Tera to achieve much, and its weaknesses on the special side can often force it out. It can obviously win on the spot if you let it boost too much, but that generally requires either dead checks or massive misplays. Salt Cure is an excellent progress maker, but it has a lot of counterplay; the chip isn't too overwhelming against things that aren't Water or Steel, and Covert Cloak is an underexplored item. Garganacl is an excellent pokemon that has to be played around, but almost all teams can fit checks against it.
No Action. It is unquestionable that the meta is built around Gholdengo's unique strengths; but by the same token, it's built around exploiting its weaknesses. Nobody cares much about Gholdengo as a pokemon in itself; it's the enabling of hazard stacks that gets Gholdengo on here. But it can't do this for free. Great Tusk and Iron Treads are some of the best hazard removers you could ask for, with Tusk's offensive presence and massive bulk scaring out a huge amount of pokemon, and Tread's excellent typing and speed tier letting it spin very effectively too; even more against Toxic Spikes. Boots in this meta are underexplored IMO, poison regenerators help limit T-Spikes from Glimmora, and Hatterene can stop hazards from going up to begin with, and Cinderace's potential impact is yet to be established. Gholdengo is excellent at keeping hazards up, but it still requires good play both in the builder and in-game in order to achieve that function, and hazard stacking, while very strong, is not broken enough to warrant action.
i simply hate this cheesy fucker too much to give any unbiased judgement. send it to hell immediately and while you're at it throw that stupid rat pawmot there too
No other pokemon are actually deserving of action IMO.
Quickban. Don't need to explain much, simply a metagame warping offensive threat that needs minimal support to break through any wall. Scarf is almost intolerable for offensive teams, and specs is almost intolerable for the few balance structures that can deal with scarf. Nasty plot is less common but makes me cry whenever I see it. Turn this guy into sushi. Suspect test, ideally highest priority. As someone who prefers balance teams, it feels like I have to jump through so many hoops and make quite a few gambles to actually deal with this, especially with the lack of fast status users in the tier. However, if you have a plan, it is workable - in isolation. What pushes Annihilape over the edge is support from things like Screens, Shed Tail or Pawmot, which let it set up even more freely and ignore even more damage. Thanks to the checks that exist on defensive teams, and its potential for poor matchups making running it kind of a gamble, I would want a larger discussion about it, but I would probably vote ban unless something major came up. Suspect test. I'm a bit more conflicted on this one; with how the defensive profile of the tier is right now with a lot of strong unaware pokemon, it's not always possible for pokemon to get in once and have a guaranteed sweep, with the only real exceptions being Espathra and Annihilape to some extent. Dragapult also exists, though there are plenty of things that can sit on it even with a substitute. Still, Cyclizar's presence makes the majority of walls feel very unsafe - any turn spent recovering could lead to a Cyclizar coming in and Shed Tailing up for free, and its ability to keep doing this makes offensive teams very difficult to deal with. Suspect test. The checks are ubiquitous, but it's not clear if they're enough. I feel like I almost always need to save my teras just for this, because most walls will be 2HKOd by neutral hits after minimal chip, and the way things like Cyclizar and Annihilape work makes it very hard to heal off chip. However, it dies if you breath on it too hard even when it teras, and since it can't often break walls open up front without super effective moves, it's basically reserved to lategame cleanups against defensive teams; if you've been outplaying all game, Chien Pao will most likely not turn the tide, but its ability to capitalize off any chip makes it debatably broken. Suspect test, but low priority. Tera Normal ESpeed is strong, and creates limits in the builder on most team styles. Its wide movepool also makes counterplay feel shaky. However, Dragonite hates helmets and hates unawares, which are both on most teams. It's also quite weak to status; pokemon like Rotom-W and Skeledirge are very good at living one hit and putting on a wisp, which will stop its Espeeds from achieving all that much. The other Dragonite problem is that it's much weaker if it has to switch out; it can't keep multiscale up in this meta, and when it pops, its previously considerable bulk becomes very mediocre. Still, even with the counterplay, it requires a huge amount of respect in both the builder and in gameplay, and I'm still not sure if the counterplay that exists is enough. No Action. It's a great wall that can chip things down very consistently, but requires a Tera to achieve much, and its weaknesses on the special side can often force it out. It can obviously win on the spot if you let it boost too much, but that generally requires either dead checks or massive misplays. Salt Cure is an excellent progress maker, but it has a lot of counterplay; the chip isn't too overwhelming against things that aren't Water or Steel, and Covert Cloak is an underexplored item. Garganacl is an excellent pokemon that has to be played around, but almost all teams can fit checks against it. No Action. It is unquestionable that the meta is built around Gholdengo's unique strengths; but by the same token, it's built around exploiting its weaknesses. Nobody cares much about Gholdengo as a pokemon in itself; it's the enabling of hazard stacks that gets Gholdengo on here. But it can't do this for free. Great Tusk and Iron Treads are some of the best hazard removers you could ask for, with Tusk's offensive presence and massive bulk scaring out a huge amount of pokemon, and Tread's excellent typing and speed tier letting it spin very effectively too; even more against Toxic Spikes. Boots in this meta are underexplored IMO, poison regenerators help limit T-Spikes from Glimmora, and Hatterene can stop hazards from going up to begin with, and Cinderace's potential impact is yet to be established. Gholdengo is excellent at keeping hazards up, but it still requires good play both in the builder and in-game in order to achieve that function, and hazard stacking, while very strong, is not broken enough to warrant action. i simply hate this cheesy fucker too much to give any unbiased judgement. send it to hell immediately and while you're at it throw that stupid rat pawmot there tooNo other pokemon are actually deserving of action IMO.
for all this text your arguments boil down to:
warps teambuilding: yeah, every mon does this to an extent, that doesn't inherently make a mon broken, it just means that they're strong enough that counterplay to them and the stratagies they enable is very important, similar things could be said about the likes of ss weavile or even something like adv skarm, if your team sucks into them, then maybe its just a bad team
removes entire strategies by existing: for how often you bring this point up, you don't really seem to bring up any specific examples, that coupled with the fact that I can't really think of any strategies (defog corviknight does not count) that this mon really invalidates leads me to think you're talking out of your ass here unless you can show an actual good example.
"its main threats are gonna get banned making it even better/more opressive": so first off even if this did hypothetically happen using "it'l be broken once x gets banned" is pretty much never a good argument for why we should ban something, that being said, we have literally no way of knowing if this is even what the result will be, and your analysis of the impact of chi-yu leaving is really one dimensional and doesn't really take into account a lot of other factors that will happen as a result of the ban, chi yu fucks over a lot of pokemon, and the meta can change in pretty unexpected ways at times
overall, you make a lot of weak points or straight up non-arguments, and I am absolutely not sold on your arguments that it should be banned
Its not just defog mate. Its ability removes multiple strats from working at all. Just because a pokemon doesnt instant kill everything doesnt mean that it isnt severely limiting. The only options to deal with Ghold are to hit it. So any pokemon that rely on status or other non directly damaging moves literally are invalidated.
I’m pretty sure the only quick ban should be Nemo. With annilape and cyclizar getting the first two suspect test.
I kinda feel torn about ape though. The crux of his ban is that he 6 0’s stall and poorly made bulkly offensive teams. But annilape or not stall sucks right now doesn’t it ? Should he be banned for making an unviable play style even more unviable ? I get as a community stall is a staple of competitive community but looking at what we know about the next 4-6 months about the meta I don’t see how stall is ever gonna be viable.
I kinda feel torn about ape though. The crux of his ban is that he 6 0’s stall and poorly made bulkly offensive teams. But annilape or not stall sucks right now doesn’t it ? Should he be banned for making an unviable play style even more unviable ? I get as a community stall is a staple of competitive community but looking at what we know about the next 4-6 months about the meta I don’t see how stall is ever gonna be viable.
chi-yu is certainly getting banned and i imagine chien-pao, annihilape and cyclizar won't be very far behind it. the others will probably just stay on the radar, for now at least
Gholdengo as a pokemon itself is far, far from broken. It's somewhat reliant on Steel STAB (which is non-ideal), to do damage without setting up, its slow and not particularly bulky, and it has a lot of very common type weaknesses. If you're struggling to deal with Gholdengo teams and their ability to stack hazards and chip down walls, that's understandable. But if you're struggling to deal with Gholdengo when it enters the field, you'll struggle just as much with fast Taunt users, status absorbers, or Magic Guard users, which have always been a part of pokemon.
The crux of his ban is his only counterplay is to either burn him (which can be avoided), dont hit him (lol), or 1 shot him. Him invalidating multiple playstyles is a bonus.
Also every one of your points can be brought towards Chi Yu which isnt helping apes case
Rage fist is broken on Annihilape, but not on Primeape, which is frankly kinda dogshit. This means that the move is not broken on any more than a single mon it's on, and thus the move shouldn't be suspected/banned. Only Annihilape should be, as it's uniquely poised to take advantage of the move to single-handedly dismantle stall and balance.
I really don't get why people want to ban rage fist/shed tail when it's clearly Annihilape/Cyclizar that break it. I mean, I get it from a "I like this pokemon otherwise and want it to stay" perspective, but I don't see any legitimate argument for it when it comes to tiering. Primeape and Orthworm are not broken with the moves, and thus the moves should not be banned. Same reason why moves aren't arbitrarily banned on other broken pokemon, even if the move is the single thing breaking them.
My philosophy behind it is "Try playing with the Pokemon WITHOUT the move they're abusing." (No Shed Tail Cyclizar, no Rage Fist apes) and then see how strong they really are. PokeAimMD and Emvee talked about this in regards to utility snek and Shed Tail in their recent video and made some valid points. Cyclizar without ST is a very good utility mon, but isn't necessarily broken. I've ran into Apes online that don't run Rage Fist (instead using stuff like Shadow Claw) and it isn't a big deal to deal with.
A lot of people, including the council, want to stray as far away from complex bans as they can, in spite of things like Arena Trap and Shadow Tag being banned. When HOME releases with Basculegion, Houndstone is coming back and Last Respects is getting banned -- yet another complex ban. Baton Pass is also a complex ban in and of itself. Houndstone was never the problem with LR, it was the move itself and the teams built around it. I think the same goes for Shed Tail and Rage Fist.
But hey, what do I know? I don't bother getting reqs for a tier I don't like playing. Yet I still weigh in on stuff like this and Tera because it has direct impacts on the tier(s) that I DO play.
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