I... What? I do like infernape a lot and I like slack off as an option on it but I'm not saying chien pao is going to be best with recover either. Infernape was just an example of a Pokemon than similarly is not very good at taking hits, and that I was able to use a recovery move on effectively. It's not a stretch to think chien pao might be able to leverage it's offensive presence in the same way to play around passive damage. You on the other hand immediately dismissed the idea of running recovery on an offensive Pokemon.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
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I... What? I do like infernape a lot and I like slack off as an option on it but I'm not saying chien pao is going to be best with recover either. Infernape was just an example of a Pokemon than similarly is not very good at taking hits, and that I was able to use a recovery move on effectively. It's not a stretch to think chien pao might be able to leverage it's offensive presence in the same way to play around passive damage. You on the other hand immediately dismissed the idea of running recovery on an offensive Pokemon.
An official Viability Ranking is inevitable, so I’m just gonna post this and give my thoughts on a few of these placements.
Note: These are early meta impressions, don’t be too harsh.
Dragapult is insane rn. Fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Pivots, spinblocks, hits hard for something with average SpA. Boots Wisp, Specs, Band, DD. Tera Ghost makes this thing insanely hard to switch into, especially as it U-Turns on Ting-Lu. Synergizes perfectly with the other offensive threats in the tier like Valiant and Scizor. Boots is great in this metagame for weakening shit with Wisp.
Valiant is the absolute goat. Basically Gen 4 Lucario without E-Speed but everything else is jacked up. Speed control with Booster Energy. Cleans games, breaks holes with CM, Specs, Band, SD. Scares all the dragons, dark types, and fighting types. A lot of Tera potential with Fairy, Fighting, Electric, Ghost, etc.
Badass Ghost Rider Croc (A.K.A the Dirge). The amount of things it can live in one hit and burn is insane. Roaring Moon Crunch. Chien-Pao Crunch. Great Tusk Adamant Headlong Rush. Awkward to switch into without Garganacl or Chi-Yu, checks a plethora of offensive threats, especially with Tera. Provides defensive utility and offensive pressure, making it more splashable than the other two Unaware walls introduced this gen.
Iron Treads is criminally underrated. It has similar attributes to Great Tusk but with better special bulk, speed, Volt Switch, and the Steel typing letting it do better against hazard stacking teams. I used a team with AV Treads, Roaring Moon and Mola which can pivot around Gholdengo very nicely and is a phenomenal defensive core.
Going all the way into B- is Hippowdon. It has some qualities over the other grounds to give it a relevant niche in the tier. Sand + Spikes is a classic ADV combo that when paired with Glimmora and Gholdengo brings an annoying hazard stacking core. Its a ground type with longevity and not shit physical bulk (sorry Clodsire). It means its a solid check to Valiant, Pult, and Ghold Whirlwind proves to be useful in this metagame for racking up hazard dmg and phazing away setup sweepers.
Maushold and Lucha are the only hazard removers that ignore Good as Gold, other than that they are mid but that alone puts them in at least fringe use.
Here is a link to those who want to make their own
https://tiermaker.com/list/random/pokemon-scarlet-and-violet-full-pokedex-11-18-22-401723/2627780
Note: These are early meta impressions, don’t be too harsh.
Dragapult is insane rn. Fastest unboosted mon in the tier. Pivots, spinblocks, hits hard for something with average SpA. Boots Wisp, Specs, Band, DD. Tera Ghost makes this thing insanely hard to switch into, especially as it U-Turns on Ting-Lu. Synergizes perfectly with the other offensive threats in the tier like Valiant and Scizor. Boots is great in this metagame for weakening shit with Wisp.
Valiant is the absolute goat. Basically Gen 4 Lucario without E-Speed but everything else is jacked up. Speed control with Booster Energy. Cleans games, breaks holes with CM, Specs, Band, SD. Scares all the dragons, dark types, and fighting types. A lot of Tera potential with Fairy, Fighting, Electric, Ghost, etc.
Badass Ghost Rider Croc (A.K.A the Dirge). The amount of things it can live in one hit and burn is insane. Roaring Moon Crunch. Chien-Pao Crunch. Great Tusk Adamant Headlong Rush. Awkward to switch into without Garganacl or Chi-Yu, checks a plethora of offensive threats, especially with Tera. Provides defensive utility and offensive pressure, making it more splashable than the other two Unaware walls introduced this gen.
Iron Treads is criminally underrated. It has similar attributes to Great Tusk but with better special bulk, speed, Volt Switch, and the Steel typing letting it do better against hazard stacking teams. I used a team with AV Treads, Roaring Moon and Mola which can pivot around Gholdengo very nicely and is a phenomenal defensive core.
Going all the way into B- is Hippowdon. It has some qualities over the other grounds to give it a relevant niche in the tier. Sand + Spikes is a classic ADV combo that when paired with Glimmora and Gholdengo brings an annoying hazard stacking core. Its a ground type with longevity and not shit physical bulk (sorry Clodsire). It means its a solid check to Valiant, Pult, and Ghold Whirlwind proves to be useful in this metagame for racking up hazard dmg and phazing away setup sweepers.
Maushold and Lucha are the only hazard removers that ignore Good as Gold, other than that they are mid but that alone puts them in at least fringe use.
Here is a link to those who want to make their own
https://tiermaker.com/list/random/pokemon-scarlet-and-violet-full-pokedex-11-18-22-401723/2627780
Instead of a VR, I made a list of what I believe should be done about the things in the tier upon which people have discussed tiering action, including things only briefly mentioned.
This is quite a lot of bans, perhaps we should get used to using Flamigo and Bombirdier if this is the future...
Shed tail isn't even close to broken on orthworm. Cyclizar breaks shed tail. Grimmsnarl also? It can be annoying but it isn't really the issue with HO teams. If you wanted to complain about something it would be better directed to light clay (not that I think it even is a priority atm, if a concern at all). .
You’ve clearly never played against an Orthworm user who knows what they’re doing.
Prankster Screens I can deal with, it had those last gen and it was fine. Prankster Parting Shot on its own can be kind of dumb but is still not a reason to ban something—Grafaiai is proof of that. However, getting both Screens and Parting Shot with priority is what pushes Grimmsnarl over the top, combined with the lack of viable Defoggers right now (which a Gholdengo ban doesn’t fully solve, although it helps). There is zero skill required to set up and keep screens right now and it’s entirely Grimmsnarl’s fault. People are starting to run Brick Break, a move which no one should ever run on anything in this modern day and age, specifically to deal with it. It needs a suspect at the very least.
I personally don't think that Shed Tail or Tera push the mons that are currently broken over the edge. Maybe Dragonite but that's it. When you look at the stats, moves and abilities of offensive threats that are questioned, yeah it's pretty clear why they're that way
Like having 135 SpAtt, 100 speed, great bulk, good offensive and defensive typing with an ability that's basically Adaptability that also applied on none stabs would've been questionable in gen 8. And we are in a gen with mechanical changes that greatly disadvantage defensive mons, making something like Blissey a lot rarer to stop a menace like this
I think we could maybe try out some shit but I don't know if it's in any way feasible. Like having Shed Tail banned for 2 weeks and looking at whether the move or it's abusers are the problem. I don't think it's fully clear cut at all
Like having 135 SpAtt, 100 speed, great bulk, good offensive and defensive typing with an ability that's basically Adaptability that also applied on none stabs would've been questionable in gen 8. And we are in a gen with mechanical changes that greatly disadvantage defensive mons, making something like Blissey a lot rarer to stop a menace like this
I think we could maybe try out some shit but I don't know if it's in any way feasible. Like having Shed Tail banned for 2 weeks and looking at whether the move or it's abusers are the problem. I don't think it's fully clear cut at all
Tbh, I think shed tail is more of a noob trap then an actually good strat. I can’t honestly remember the last time I faced a cyclizar who got a shed tail off that wasn’t immediately broken. I do think it should be banned regardless though, just because it’s incredibly matchup fishy and pretty uncompetitive. Same for revival blessing, I think running pawmot or rabsca just to revive one Pokémon to 50% hp before dying immediately is major copium.
but yeah, hard agree that the mons are really the core of the problem here, tera shed tail revival blessing screens and hazard stack are all contributing factors, but ultimately something like chi yu is never going to be balanced regardless.
Can't really agree on banning Shed tail. I would say a good team should be able to break through it and a good team in SV Meta is one with strong priority, like Scizor's bullet punch or Lokix' first impression
And I think Pawmot has a good purpose even without Revival Blessing. 115 Attack with 105 speed isn't great but it's good, it's signature move is amazing, good STAB combo and both Volt Absorb and Iron Fist are great abilities. Won't be a staple but I can imagine a place in the C rank or so for this guy
Otherwise, yeah I fully agree
I agree.
In my opinion, grimsnarl has to go beacuse there's not any other mon that abuses screens and parting shot to that extent.
In case of cyclizar it's kinda hard because on one hand shed tail is what pushes it over the edge and without it the mon would be much worse, but on the other hand cyclizar is the only one that abuses it so much because orthworm is not nearly as broken using it.
About tera i personaly wouldn't ban it because to me it doesn't seem like the reason why so many mons are broken.
And lastly chi-yu and gholdengo are way too strong and meta defining to not consider banning them.
I don't know, i think we still need to let the meta develop a bit more but those are my thoughts at the moment.
(oh i forgot about revival blessing lol. I don't think it's that problematic anyway according to my experience)
I want everyone here to play 10 games against a half decent player on njnp's grimmsnarl cyclizar team lol. If it's such a noob trap why did he easily hit #1 with it. Grimsnarl + cyclizar is so comically broken. Completely free to get cyclizar in under screens and then pass to something with screens up. You can usually do this twice a game, at least, and with the number of threats that can end a game with 1 turn of setup at the moment, even once is too much, for how free it is.
I 100% agree with this.
As i said on an earlier post, i've been using the combo of veluza + grimsnarl + cyclizar and it's crazy how easily i was able to set it all up and just sweep
This is unrelated but they should reeeeally make Brick Break match Psychic Fangs' 85 BP if Game Freak actually wants anyone to ever run it. 75 BP feels really outdated nowadays, especially considering the original Fighting type coverage, Submission, is 5 BP higher at 80.
To answer your question, some people had reminded me that Raging Bull exists, so the Paldean Tauros' would probably be your best use of a Screens destroyer. 75 BP is just too weak for coverage. 90 is alright, not preferable, but at least it's STAB.
I'd run Scizor, Tauros, and 3 Dark types on the same team before I'd consider running Brick Break.
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It's not wrong, it's the math for a really niche and dumb Fairy Chien-Pao defensive set. You resist fighting instead of being 4x weak to it and you could just eat everything Iron Hands throws at you.
I probably should have specified Fairy, and I doubt it's a good set because it requires you to use your tera to make it do what other Pokemon are capable doing normally, but it's a thing.
Hot take, Annihilape isn't broken. If anything is broken, it's Rage Fist.
Look at Primeape's stats in comparison and the fact it can run Eviolite if it needs. That thing is capable of doing more or less the same thing, and if Rage Fist Annihilape is truly 100% banworthy, Primeape is at least suspect.
It would actually be hilarious if we ban Annihilape and it ends up being a Diglett scenario where people just swap it out for the pre-evolution.
I never felt like Rage Fist is broken. It's not even overwhelming because the condition to get 350BP isn't too easy to fulfill since the mechanics update. Most of the time, 150-200BP is the most it can reach, which is a lot, but it's gonna be in bad shape when it has that power and whilst it's bulk is good, it's not so good that it can handle priority at that point
Really a Mon that's stronger on paper and overwhelming in certain situations (that come up through skill of the user), but not inconsistentb
Really a Mon that's stronger on paper and overwhelming in certain situations (that come up through skill of the user), but not inconsistentb
getting early, heavy chip on annihilape is crucial, as giving it free turns to get that initial boost can be very dangerous. that being said, if it does manage to boost up, it has really solid fortitude, as it can invest in spdef, boost its pdef, has stab drain punch, and is very punishing to attack.
as it seems it may be too strong on the basis of circumstance, and can be overwhelming at times. a lot of the time, i feel, if i can't get good damage on it right away, it either becomes very hard to keep in control, and ends up in a grinding toss up after me sacking a few mons. seems to leave the ape user at an advantage in that regard.
i'm not sure where i stand on it - i'll just have to use it a little more to form an firmer prescription.
as it seems it may be too strong on the basis of circumstance, and can be overwhelming at times. a lot of the time, i feel, if i can't get good damage on it right away, it either becomes very hard to keep in control, and ends up in a grinding toss up after me sacking a few mons. seems to leave the ape user at an advantage in that regard.
i'm not sure where i stand on it - i'll just have to use it a little more to form an firmer prescription.
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I d love to talk about Armarouge in OU
Armarouge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Armor Cannon
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere/Energy Ball
I prefer Aura Sphere instead of Energy Ball but it is up to you
This thing can do so much in right hands
Endure helps you activate weakness policy and weak armor. After buffs it is pretty hard to defeat. Psychic is here because you will be able to 2HKO Clodsire and Toxapex they won't OHKO Armarouge with STABs and they'll even buff Armarouge.
Armor Cannon usage
75% to OHKO defensive Amoonguss
Guaranteed OHKO to Breloom with Armor Cannon.
2HKO's fully SpDefensive Corviknight.
If faster Guaranteed OHKO 252 Spd and 252 SpA Gholdengo
If faster OHKOs Meowscarada
OHKOs Orthworm
Psychic usage
37.5% to survive Life Orb Ceruledge's Shadow Claw and after buffs 87.5% to OHKO it with Psychic
2HKOs SpDefensive Glimmora
If faster 25% to OHKO Iron Moth
If faster guaranteed OHKO Iron Valiant
Aura Sphere usage
After buffs OHKO Chi-Yu with Aura Sphere.
After buffs OHKO Baxcalibur with Aura
Sphere (or Armor Cannon).
2HKO's 252 HP and 252 SpDef Cyclizar so if Armarouge faster than Cyclizar it will prevent it from using Shed Tail
2HKOs Tyranitar
Energy Ball usage
After Terastallizing into Grass type you will 50% to OHKO Dondozo
Endure usage
Armarouge can't OHKO Annihilape so it is better to Endure Rage fist gain buffs and then OHKO Annihilape.
After Endured Great Tusk's attack Armarouge will OHKO it
After endured Iron Tread's attack and then OHKO it with Armor Cannon
After endured Aqua Step Armarouge will OHKO Quaxwell
Weaknesses
Priority moves (Sucker Punch)
Special attacker - they won't activate Weak Armor and Armarouge won't outspeed pokemons (like Chi-Yu)
Will be destroed by Roaring Moon Chien-Pao
You can sweep with Armarouge.
Armarouge @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Weak Armor
Tera Type: Grass
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Endure
- Armor Cannon
- Psychic
- Aura Sphere/Energy Ball
I prefer Aura Sphere instead of Energy Ball but it is up to you
This thing can do so much in right hands
Endure helps you activate weakness policy and weak armor. After buffs it is pretty hard to defeat. Psychic is here because you will be able to 2HKO Clodsire and Toxapex they won't OHKO Armarouge with STABs and they'll even buff Armarouge.
Armor Cannon usage
75% to OHKO defensive Amoonguss
Guaranteed OHKO to Breloom with Armor Cannon.
2HKO's fully SpDefensive Corviknight.
If faster Guaranteed OHKO 252 Spd and 252 SpA Gholdengo
If faster OHKOs Meowscarada
OHKOs Orthworm
Psychic usage
37.5% to survive Life Orb Ceruledge's Shadow Claw and after buffs 87.5% to OHKO it with Psychic
2HKOs SpDefensive Glimmora
If faster 25% to OHKO Iron Moth
If faster guaranteed OHKO Iron Valiant
Aura Sphere usage
After buffs OHKO Chi-Yu with Aura Sphere.
After buffs OHKO Baxcalibur with Aura
Sphere (or Armor Cannon).
2HKO's 252 HP and 252 SpDef Cyclizar so if Armarouge faster than Cyclizar it will prevent it from using Shed Tail
2HKOs Tyranitar
Energy Ball usage
After Terastallizing into Grass type you will 50% to OHKO Dondozo
Endure usage
Armarouge can't OHKO Annihilape so it is better to Endure Rage fist gain buffs and then OHKO Annihilape.
After Endured Great Tusk's attack Armarouge will OHKO it
After endured Iron Tread's attack and then OHKO it with Armor Cannon
After endured Aqua Step Armarouge will OHKO Quaxwell
Weaknesses
Priority moves (Sucker Punch)
Special attacker - they won't activate Weak Armor and Armarouge won't outspeed pokemons (like Chi-Yu)
Will be destroed by Roaring Moon Chien-Pao
You can sweep with Armarouge.
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I feel like like ape and rage fist are not broken, they were at first due to a coding error, but now you can stall him out on the defensive side, and on the offensive side you should have something to scare him out, or at least force to go for the sweep even when he is at a disadvantage, sure he is bulky and is a mon you have to account for in the builder, but its not an opresive mon, at least in my opinion
I think Ape's main advantage right now is that we lack the kind of utility Stallbreakers that (ironically) could exploit his common tactics like Taunting to prevent Rest/Bulk Up and Statusing to chip without making him angrier, as well as a lack of good Phazing so that he can't accumulate BU boosts on mons avoiding Direct Attacks. Other things like Tapu Koko/Fini bringing more reliable anti-Status Terrains would also get in the way of that set, just for another nuisance off-hand.
Despite the SR resistance and decent bulk, Recovery is semi-reliable at best for him (Rest-Chesto is one-off) and he hates any other Entry Hazards. Ape presents a serious concern if he can make the most of a switch-in, but I think the Limited Meta is part of why he's getting the amount he needs.
What I'm mainly getting at is Ape's very strong right now, but I think we're a bit early in the pre-Home Meta for him to be in the same suspect talks as stuff like Cyclizar or Chi-Yu (one of which he may not directly exploit but appreciates other aspects of the teams for like Screens). At face value his sets would get run over by offense, which helped the BU set gain prominence for capitalizing on that structure, where I think certain Balance team mons would have counterplay if the rest of the Meta wasn't so hostile to them. I'm curious how much of Ape/Rage Fist's potential-suspect Levels of success come down to a legitimately overbearing Mon as compared to Counterplay existing but not being utilized due to either other-toy syndrome or a Meta admittedly hostile to it for reasons beyond just Ape.
Despite the SR resistance and decent bulk, Recovery is semi-reliable at best for him (Rest-Chesto is one-off) and he hates any other Entry Hazards. Ape presents a serious concern if he can make the most of a switch-in, but I think the Limited Meta is part of why he's getting the amount he needs.
What I'm mainly getting at is Ape's very strong right now, but I think we're a bit early in the pre-Home Meta for him to be in the same suspect talks as stuff like Cyclizar or Chi-Yu (one of which he may not directly exploit but appreciates other aspects of the teams for like Screens). At face value his sets would get run over by offense, which helped the BU set gain prominence for capitalizing on that structure, where I think certain Balance team mons would have counterplay if the rest of the Meta wasn't so hostile to them. I'm curious how much of Ape/Rage Fist's potential-suspect Levels of success come down to a legitimately overbearing Mon as compared to Counterplay existing but not being utilized due to either other-toy syndrome or a Meta admittedly hostile to it for reasons beyond just Ape.
Rate Fist as a move is not an issue imo. It essentially requires a mon to have excellent bulk and acceptable defensive typing to even be used in the first place. Not only that, it also appreciates good recovery for the pokemon to remain healthy and the boost to accumulate. Annihilate fits all the above criteria. However any random mon with rage fist wouldn't be broken.
This isn't like Last Respects where a KO is inevitable if Houndstone was 4th/5th pokemon. Rage Fist requires quite a bit of effort to keep Annihilate alive, and even requiring support like Revival Blessing. The amount of effort to make it effective doesn't make make it broken imo.
Also, nothing about rage fist seems uncompetitive. Imo it's fine as it is. If Annihilate appears to be an issue, suspect test that.
This isn't like Last Respects where a KO is inevitable if Houndstone was 4th/5th pokemon. Rage Fist requires quite a bit of effort to keep Annihilate alive, and even requiring support like Revival Blessing. The amount of effort to make it effective doesn't make make it broken imo.
Also, nothing about rage fist seems uncompetitive. Imo it's fine as it is. If Annihilate appears to be an issue, suspect test that.
I think with just how fast and offensive this meta is, being 90 base speed and only pretty bulky without screens leaves you susceptible to being picked off pretty easily by the myriad of stupid threats we have in the tier. That's not to say it isn't good - BU+Taunt is a nightmare to face and completely invalidates defensive teams, but offense can also deal with it incredibly easily. It's more of a case like Espathra where the 'mon itself, while undeniably good, can really only maximize its potential with all the ludicrous support setup 'mons can abuse at the moment (screens, Shed Tail, other stupid bullshit). If Annihilape or Rage Fist are banned, it would almost certainly be because of their outright invalidation of defensive playstyles moreso than their effect on frailer teams.
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