In theory Magnezone should be killing it with all the steel types running around. I've used it to good effect to clear corviknight for scizor. But can you believe that if both are at full, specs magnezone will actually LOSE to kingambit, provided 1 ally has fainted, then kowtow + sucker is a guaranteed kill. Even a MAX defense magnezone cannot KO zero bulk kingambit with body press. Shit like that blows my mind
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Shit like this depresses me to no end. I've used Magnezone off and on in the pas for fun and the fact it cannot beat Gambit feels so innately wrong to me. Like man, imagine the world where we can just trap the fucker and be done with it
If you want to trap gambit with magnezone, use iron defense. Honestly, that's the main mag set you should be using, as you can threaten a sweep with body press afterwards, which if they don't have strong special attackers that can harm magnezone, could mean its simply game for the opponent. It can even pick up ko's on pokemon such as great tusk if you tera, which can open up even more pokemon.
The main issue with mag is just that how its role of steel trapper is way harder in ou than before. Nearly all steels have some way of circumventing it or outright beating the mag anyways. Gambit muscles through mag without prior set up with id, treads shreds you, ghold isnt affected, corv uturns, crown focus blasts or volt switches, and tinka just annoys you with encore and has enough bulk to take its hits.
This isnt even mentioning how they all can tera out and make mag essentially sub optimal than something else
This isnt even mentioning how they all can tera out and make mag essentially sub optimal than something else
I mean, this was predictable to happen. There is no Ferro to trap, Skarmory is terrible (but even then good enough to hit Zone hard with Body Prese) and the other Steels have ways to circunvent Zone.
So, the "solution" for Zone is to make use of what it accomplishes, mainly forcing opponents to Tera before they would like:
Step 1: Put Balloon on Zone. This allows to switch into Treads and damage it hard.
Step 2: Use Mons walled by Steels but with enough power to break them if they are already damaged. For example, choiced Enamorus struggles vs Treads and especially Corv, so if Zone doesnt kill them but damages them, thats a win. Similarly, if your Enamorus doesnt switch out vs Scizor, but continues to use Moonblast, Scizor either is worn down or trapped by Zone after killing Enamorus. In the second scenario you should obviously have something fast to not be vulnerable after Enamorus dies.
Step 3: Use Mons almost fully walled by Tinkaton and Gambit, or annoyed by them. Tinkaton is an early game Mon that puts Rocks and annoys stuff with TW, Encore and Knock Off. So, the moment Tink appears, you send Zone. Zone doesnt care about TW and Knock, so you just have to have counterplay to whatever will set-up after Zone dies. If Tink Teras, thats a win for Zone, Tink is a bad Tera user overall. Meanwhile, Gambit is a very good Tera user, but not early game. So, if you attract Gambit early game ( offensive Blastless Gholdengo or Pecharunt do the job) and trap it with Zone, you likely lose Zone, but Gambit will be either very damaged or already Tera'd, meaning it wont surprise you with unexpected Tera type in late game. Thats also a win for Gambit team.
So, with that in mind, a good Zone team would be something like this (just thinking from ny head, not actually building) :
1. Zone (lmao, what a surprise).
2. Enamorus (attracts Treads, Tink and Corv)
3. Pecharunt (pivot and attracts Gambit)
4. Tusk, Lando or something similar (again, attracts some Corvs and somewhat deals with Gholdengo and late game Gambit).
5. Clef or Tinkaton (Rockers that despise Steels).
6. Fast Mon thar covers stuff. Many options here, Pult, Weavile, Waterpon, even Gambit kinda counts.
So, the goal of Zone is not to actually kill stuff (except Tinkaton and the suboptimal Pdef Corv), but to force the opponent to change game plan, preferably an early Tera.
Of course, there is always the Specs Analytic Zone, but that is an entirely different threat that plays very differently and with different teammates.
So, the "solution" for Zone is to make use of what it accomplishes, mainly forcing opponents to Tera before they would like:
Step 1: Put Balloon on Zone. This allows to switch into Treads and damage it hard.
Step 2: Use Mons walled by Steels but with enough power to break them if they are already damaged. For example, choiced Enamorus struggles vs Treads and especially Corv, so if Zone doesnt kill them but damages them, thats a win. Similarly, if your Enamorus doesnt switch out vs Scizor, but continues to use Moonblast, Scizor either is worn down or trapped by Zone after killing Enamorus. In the second scenario you should obviously have something fast to not be vulnerable after Enamorus dies.
Step 3: Use Mons almost fully walled by Tinkaton and Gambit, or annoyed by them. Tinkaton is an early game Mon that puts Rocks and annoys stuff with TW, Encore and Knock Off. So, the moment Tink appears, you send Zone. Zone doesnt care about TW and Knock, so you just have to have counterplay to whatever will set-up after Zone dies. If Tink Teras, thats a win for Zone, Tink is a bad Tera user overall. Meanwhile, Gambit is a very good Tera user, but not early game. So, if you attract Gambit early game ( offensive Blastless Gholdengo or Pecharunt do the job) and trap it with Zone, you likely lose Zone, but Gambit will be either very damaged or already Tera'd, meaning it wont surprise you with unexpected Tera type in late game. Thats also a win for Gambit team.
So, with that in mind, a good Zone team would be something like this (just thinking from ny head, not actually building) :
1. Zone (lmao, what a surprise).
2. Enamorus (attracts Treads, Tink and Corv)
3. Pecharunt (pivot and attracts Gambit)
4. Tusk, Lando or something similar (again, attracts some Corvs and somewhat deals with Gholdengo and late game Gambit).
5. Clef or Tinkaton (Rockers that despise Steels).
6. Fast Mon thar covers stuff. Many options here, Pult, Weavile, Waterpon, even Gambit kinda counts.
So, the goal of Zone is not to actually kill stuff (except Tinkaton and the suboptimal Pdef Corv), but to force the opponent to change game plan, preferably an early Tera.
Of course, there is always the Specs Analytic Zone, but that is an entirely different threat that plays very differently and with different teammates.
Magnezone is comically ineffective in OU due to its lack of bulk or speed preventing it from trapping steels, but if you have to use it, i would advise using a set like this
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Discharge
- Protect
It only traps corviknight (or rather chips it over the course of a game) and kingambit since iron crown has focus miss and tinkaton can use encore but if you have a sweeper that is irritated by either, magnezone is a niche choice, special defense ecs are so it can survive after fulfilling its function (this investment pairs well with iron defense boosts) and leftovers protect is a form of recovery
Use tera fighting in desperate match ups against gambit, though it should be noted that magnezone can infact lose to gambit
Magnezone @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
Tera Type: Fighting
EVs: 252 HP / 80 SpD / 176 Spe
Calm Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Iron Defense
- Body Press
- Discharge
- Protect
It only traps corviknight (or rather chips it over the course of a game) and kingambit since iron crown has focus miss and tinkaton can use encore but if you have a sweeper that is irritated by either, magnezone is a niche choice, special defense ecs are so it can survive after fulfilling its function (this investment pairs well with iron defense boosts) and leftovers protect is a form of recovery
Use tera fighting in desperate match ups against gambit, though it should be noted that magnezone can infact lose to gambit
I wonder why Grassy Seed Zone isn't a thing. At +1 Def, it can OHKO Kingambit with Body Press and it seems to pair really well with Rillaboom since it helps with the Corv Match up
Magnezone @ Grassy Seed
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Tera Type: Grass/Water
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 232 Def / 100 SpA / 176 Spe
- Body Press
- Thunder
- Tera Blast
- Iron Defense
Thunder and 100 SpA allows it to get the OHKO on defensive Corv without the need of Terastilization. 232 Def EVs allow it to OHKO 252 HP/ 4 Def Kingambit
Magnezone @ Grassy Seed
Level: 100
Modest Nature
Tera Type: Grass/Water
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 232 Def / 100 SpA / 176 Spe
- Body Press
- Thunder
- Tera Blast
- Iron Defense
Thunder and 100 SpA allows it to get the OHKO on defensive Corv without the need of Terastilization. 232 Def EVs allow it to OHKO 252 HP/ 4 Def Kingambit
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One issue is you become weaker to Fire and other things like Bolt are better with Grassy Seed while having a more complimentary defensive profile. Another issue is GT teams fell off a lot. Using a fringe mon like Magnezone makes an already struggling archetype harder to work with. There are better Steel types to use on the archetype.
If you were going to use another Tera type besides Fighting and Tera Blast, my advice would actually be to use Ground for Iron Crown. You get to block Volt Switch, which at least stops Crown and Treads from bypassing your trap ability. Unfortunately, Treads can still Ice Spinner. This is further incentivized by terrain. So that is still a difficult match up.
the thing is rilla is washed and magnezone isnt a flexible mon there are simply better checks to kingambit and corv that are more flexible in what they can do for example hex t-wave gholdengo it just fucks over corv and provides such a broken ability, or pech, kingambit cant touch it unless you play bad and neither can corv ig corv can pp stall it but just play around it it also has parting shot. also if they have a ting lu and a ghost type mon which are extremely common in sv ou it just is useless for the whole of the match, also no matter what great tusks are running ice spinner. it could have a neich against stall tho specifically dondozo with tera ghost for the body press immunity also could be good into corv body press sets with tera ghost
Magnezone might be the most extreme example of Power Creep gone wrong. It had one niche in trapping and now the targets that it would typically trap just don't care. Kingambit, Gholdengo, and Iron Treads all laugh at it. Corviknight might be a legitimate target, but so many other things in OU just handle it better that it's not worth justifying the slot.
Kingambit doesn’t laugh at it, as it is still very trappable.
The real issue is: why WOULD you need to trap these Pokémon? Other than Corv, the other steels aren’t so longevity heavy they can’t just be overwhelmed with repeated hits. Kingambit isn’t used for defensive use as much as other steels anyway, Iron Treads is usually a lead and thus only seen early game, Gholdengo is a ghost and can’t be trapped, and Iron Crown runs AV so it can’t even be trapped as it just pivots out with Volt Switch (and is faster unless Zone runs bad scarf sets). Technically you’ve got Tinkaton too to trap but again, limited longevity as is.
Essentially with so few worthwhile trappable steels as is, bringing Zone is a case of match up fishing for very little reward. In games where those specific steels aren’t present you’re often playing 5v6 because Zone is too flawed otherwise and won’t really do much (especially if there’s a TingLu on the other team).
Maybe if Ferrothorn was around you could justify it but even then, Zone still has the same issues of fishing.
I was thinking about Ground Tera Blast as well since it learns Gravity which also makes its Thunder (100%?) Accurate. It just kinda sucks it doesn't learn Focus Blast
It's still shaky at best and if kingambit teras or waits to come out last then it's useless. God forbid it has low kick. And iron defense doesn't work on any other steel types really. My comment was replying to an above post about Pokemon that fell out of favour, and that in previous generations, this many steel types would almost certainly make magnezone OU, but unfortunately he loses to almost all relevant steels this generation.
For that short amount of time, what made Probopass a more popular choice than
Magnezone? Were the Low Kick variants of Kingambit uncommon?
Magnezone? Were the Low Kick variants of Kingambit uncommon?
It was such a shock to see probopass in the 1900s I think it was just surprise factor, people probably expected it to set rocks then explode. By the time they realised what's going on it had done its job. But I played against that team a few times and honestly if it came in on swords dance then gambit had a good shot to beat it 1v1, it never gave me trouble, even without low kick. But sometimes on ladder if you're good enough you just need a solid run of surprising people and you can get into top 30, theres a reason once that RMT was written probopass disappeared, it was useless without the surprise factor.
it was only on one specific team. idk how common Low Kick was when the team peaked, but Low Kick Gambit has a tough time fitting Iron Head. the team took advantage of Low Kick beating Probopass by walling it later with Tera Fairy Sinistcha. Magnezone is the better steel trapper because it has a better matchup into Corv, one of the better Steels to remove. Probopass kinda did nothing but trap Gambit on that team, which worked because the team needed Gambit gone.
Anyone else feel that Landorus-T has gotten significantly worse lately? Its still is a decent Pokemon, but I feel that its lack of longevity has become a significantly greater issue for it compared to before. I feel that many of the teams it was once Popular on have been opting to run other pivots, such as Corviknight or Pecharunt, due to their greater longevity or better match-ups into the metagame. Most other ground-types such as Iron Treads, Great Tusk, or Ting-Lu also seem to be becoming more popular on the bulky offense teams we once saw Lando-T on due to their greater utility, offensive coverage, or versatility.
I do think it is one of the Pokemon hurt most by the bans we had in the past year. Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire were both not only Pokemon that Lando-T could check (to some degree) but also fantastic partners for Lando-T to bring in with U-Turn, as they could more easily setup. EP Lando-T was also a great check to Archaludon, and Volcarona was also a great Lando-T partner for similar reasons as Roaring Moon / Gouging Fire. With the metagame going to a far bulkier direction, I feel that the services that other Pokmeon such as Pecharunt or Corviknight provide are just generally more useful for the average player, on top of other ground-types like Ting-Lu just doing its whole blanket checking shtick better.
I do think it is one of the Pokemon hurt most by the bans we had in the past year. Roaring Moon and Gouging Fire were both not only Pokemon that Lando-T could check (to some degree) but also fantastic partners for Lando-T to bring in with U-Turn, as they could more easily setup. EP Lando-T was also a great check to Archaludon, and Volcarona was also a great Lando-T partner for similar reasons as Roaring Moon / Gouging Fire. With the metagame going to a far bulkier direction, I feel that the services that other Pokmeon such as Pecharunt or Corviknight provide are just generally more useful for the average player, on top of other ground-types like Ting-Lu just doing its whole blanket checking shtick better.
We can only hope.
Nah. But seriously, it's not as good a Ground/Flying type as Gliscor. The elephants also fulfill the lack of longivity role better since they can also spin. Ting-Lu is bulkier and better at setting hazards. I think this is just a natural progression of general power creep and gen 9 having more good Ground types as competition. Initimidate + a good typing is no longer enough to hold the physical meta back.
Also, they were smart to remove Rock Polish from Lando-T or else we would have much worse Tera shenanigans from it. The set predictability this gen is ironically a lot easier for this mon than in some past gens. Scarf isn't even that good anymore because of this gen's busted speed mechanics. You just kind of know it is going to be a pivot with base 91 speed. Faster teams can threaten it and most slower teams can't be broken through that easily without setup.
This isn't the first time we thought Lando-T was falling off this gen. It came back from the dead with those Taunt/EP Rocky Helmet sets because of Gouging Fire. Now, some of the old DD mons are gone and remaining ones like D-nite and some Kyurem have Ice moves anyways. It isn't too surprising to see it worse again now that it lost some of that niche.
Magnezone's actual issue is that it just gets completely skullfucked by the Ground types that rule the tier. Gholdengo (or even Heatran) has better utility as a Air Balloon or Choice Specs/Scarf user which calls into question why you'd even use it at all. Its niche is not only gone, but it is also just straight up outclassed and vulnerable to a lot of top threats.
Unrelated and completely serious question: Would it be possible to run a no-setup Gambit with Sucker/Kowtow/Iron Head/Low Kick and an item of your choice?
Unrelated and completely serious question: Would it be possible to run a no-setup Gambit with Sucker/Kowtow/Iron Head/Low Kick and an item of your choice?
Why does stall end up becoming top tier of every meta game if not the best?
Because the counsel only bans offensive mons. Which makes stall better and leads to LESS diversity because you have to do more with less, while stall has to worry about less and less (which is why it’s on the rise in OU)
The counsel doesn’t love stall, it’s loves fat walls, and if you can’t switch your fat wall into a mon more than 2 times then that mon is “broken” when in reality the answer to a powerful mon doesn’t always need to be a fat mon, sometimes it’s another powerful mon, but when you ban 20 Pokémon you force the meta into a chokehold eventually to be taken over by bulky defensive moms and we see this play out gen after gen.
Banning less mons leads to MORE diversity because you can’t get away 3 mons check 90% of things, and the meta is forced to evolve and grow and adapt to threats instead of banning them. Regen and bulky mons run rampant. You think bringing max hp talonflame to roost and Defog on gholdengo is “diversity” when maybe if flutter mane or chi yu was here we’d see less gold and defog on teams more, idk who knows how the meta would develop and that’s the problem no one knows because we BAN everything and way too quickly.
Rain gone, trick room gone, grassy terrain gone, electric terrain gone, and sun is on its last leg. Where is the “freedom” and “diversity” that all these bans were supposed to create?
The counsel should be limited to only 1 ban per 4 months, so only the truly necessary bans are implemented.
Because the counsel only bans offensive mons. Which makes stall better and leads to LESS diversity because you have to do more with less, while stall has to worry about less and less (which is why it’s on the rise in OU)
The counsel doesn’t love stall, it’s loves fat walls, and if you can’t switch your fat wall into a mon more than 2 times then that mon is “broken” when in reality the answer to a powerful mon doesn’t always need to be a fat mon, sometimes it’s another powerful mon, but when you ban 20 Pokémon you force the meta into a chokehold eventually to be taken over by bulky defensive moms and we see this play out gen after gen.
Banning less mons leads to MORE diversity because you can’t get away 3 mons check 90% of things, and the meta is forced to evolve and grow and adapt to threats instead of banning them. Regen and bulky mons run rampant. You think bringing max hp talonflame to roost and Defog on gholdengo is “diversity” when maybe if flutter mane or chi yu was here we’d see less gold and defog on teams more, idk who knows how the meta would develop and that’s the problem no one knows because we BAN everything and way too quickly.
Rain gone, trick room gone, grassy terrain gone, electric terrain gone, and sun is on its last leg. Where is the “freedom” and “diversity” that all these bans were supposed to create?
The counsel should be limited to only 1 ban per 4 months, so only the truly necessary bans are implemented.
What metagames are you referring to? Last couple gens of OU have been cycling between offense and balance as the best playstyle, not stall. ORAS was pretty stally for a time but they banned Mega Sableye and it no longer is, gens like SS are definitely not stall, modern SS has offense teams as the best even while stall is usable but not great.
Defensive Pokemon are banned if needed (oras mega sableye, sm uu quagsire) but usually defensive mons just aren't broken. Its way easier for a Pokemon that can win games on the spot to become broken than a pokemon thats kinda annoying to ko. Most broken pokemon also have a very small amount of checks, if for example you have 6 pokemon that all are only checked by one good mon, you have to run those 6 mons or lose. Mons like flutter mane are just that absurd, they dont really have counters and they're so good that every team will use them, which makes flutter mane + one of the few counters to it mandatory on basically every team, that does not improve diversity.
There are plenty of absurd wallbreakers that aren't banned. Walking Wake, Hoopa Unbound, and Ursaluna are all Pokemon that 1 or 2hko pretty much every defensive Pokemon in the game, yet none of the council is advocating for any of them to be banned.
The more broken mons you have, the more mons are no longer good because they dont check one of the brokens, teambuilding becomes extremely hard as you can't be consistent in a meta full of broken mons. Gholdengo was also a dominant Pokemon in OU when Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane were legal btw, turns out broken Pokemon really love Gholdengo to keep hazards up (also Chi-Yu and Flutter Mane beat every defogger themselves by just killing them before they can even try to defog, so...)
Rain still exists, Trick Room is just almost never good in singles (and Trick Room prefers fatter metas), Grassy Terrain is less used because Pecharunt and Moltres and such hard counter rillaboom, they're still good if you unban a lot of mons, electric terrain was never good, sun is definitely not bad and still a major part of the meta.
Rain being on the low is almost entirely because of Waterpon, it ruins an entire archetype because of how inconsistent it makes rain teams. Idk if banning it is the right decision (might be, need to look further into it), but the council banning strong sweepers is not the reason it doesn't exist. And sun's been good? They banned moon because it had so many sets that punished you so hard if you got them wrong, but I've been seeing a little bit more diversity in sun even after this ban now that you don't have this auto-include on every team.
And limiting bans is just stupid, imagine if we had to wait 2 months when Gouging Fire ruined the meta just because the council had some arbitrary limit on them.
I'll forever miss mindlessly clicking Tera Fire Raging Fury under the Sun and eating a Therian Landorus Earth Power anyways before killing it
Does anyone have tips for getting into the 1800s consistently? I’ve done it once or twice before but immediately go on a horrible losing streak back down to 1500 after. I have been on the cusp for like two years and try to use consistent teams, watch replays, etc, but can’t seem to make the jump.
Rain became mid after iron bundle and Archaludon being banned. Ogrepon isn’t coming in on those mons.
And gouging fire only “ruined” the meta because the offensive mons that kept it in check were banned