Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4

[gephicka]

It’s wild that yall seem to think tb is the reason all these mons are busted. The key problem of being able to just Tera into a perfect defensive type for the situation and set up for free won’t be fixed if we ban tb. It seems weird to defend tera for the entire generation and then be upset that the mechanic is being used the way it’s intended. It’s always been a way to cheese through things you shouldn’t be able to beat. If it’s making 1000 mons broken I don’t get why the mechanic is so loved tbh

if a team cannot beat a specific threat in AND out of tera, then that team is just straight up bad. there is variance within tera choices ofc, however the point behind a tera blast ban is to lessen the amount of variance for sets on offensive mons like the aforementioned dnite and kingambit.

without something like tera blast fairy, something like kingambit is not able to actually overwhelm its counters like Zamazenta and Great Tusk on its own.

defensive and offensive tera are important forms of skill expression in SV OU, but by and large tera blast is cheesy and doesn’t actually add a lot to the tier beyond gimmicks and surprise sets (tera blast ice lando comes to mind)

 

[Shaymin Sky]

Moon was able to run Tera Fairy+Taunt btw which further complicated the issue.

Dragonite's greater tera diversity is undercut by the fact that it often needs it to truly be scary when it boosts, as it lacks immediate high damage without it due to most often lacking a true STAB move outside of Tera. Compared to Moon/Gouging/Volcarona who threatened to drop games due to their incredible immediate danger, Dragonite simply lacks that and tends to be a danger in the mid-late game. Of course it IS a big threat vs weakened teams, but this isn't really the hallmark of a broken or unhealthy Pokemon. It generally always ends up with imperfections in the coverage choices which leads to it struggling to be a threat earlier and needs help getting past its prominent checks. I simply don't see or agree how it can be a problem. If Dragonite ends up finding a way to become broken down the road I'm happy to admit I was wrong, but at this time Dragonite doesn't come off as an issue to me.

I pretty much agree with everything here but I disagree with the notion that because Dragonite lacks the immediate power to sweep in the mid game reliably, that it cannot be "unhealthy". You don't even necessarily have to be a broken Pokemon to be unhealthy, you merely have to exemplify the negative aspects of the game that being lack of counterplay (ex: shadow tag), direct RNG, or super high variance in possibilities (ex: Pokemon like Volcarona who can run 200 Tera Quiver Dance sets or Sucker Punch which isn't directly RNG but because of the nature of the move a lot of Sucker Punch and Thunderclap gameplay is super high variance). Dragonite definitely falls in the super high variance category and it is potent enough as a sweeper to where endgames feel inconsistent playing vs Dragonite. Regardless even if Dragonite is mainly a late game sweeper who's to say that means its not broken? Dragonite lacks immediate power but it makes up for that in the 200 sets it has and it being able to guarantee 1 Dragon Dance every game, against stuff like Roaring Moon you can genuinely position to force it into Tera to DD but Dragonite does not have this weakness as it isn't forced to Tera immediately. This means Dragonite can either A. DD no tera, tera next turn and attack or DD or B. DD Tera, attack or DD next turn depending on if the Tera you are is still favorable against the opposing Pokemon. Unlike Roaring Moon who is always forced to Tera immediately if you position right, Dragonite not only has MORE sets but also has a SECOND 50/50 lmfao. Whether you think Dragonite is good enough at it's job or not as a late game sweeper (imo it is), its an unhealthy Pokemon because of how highest variance as a Sweeper it is and in top ladder and tournament gameplay this is pretty well reflected. "Just position well" does not work against a Pokemon with Multiscale, 7 Tera Types, and different move sets lol.

 

[ign27]

I pretty much agree with everything here but I disagree with the notion that because Dragonite lacks the immediate power to sweep in the mid game reliably, that it cannot be "unhealthy". You don't even necessarily have to be a broken Pokemon to be unhealthy, you merely have to exemplify the negative aspects of the game that being lack of counterplay (ex: shadow tag), direct RNG, or super high variance in possibilities (ex: Pokemon like Volcarona who can run 200 Tera Quiver Dance sets or Sucker Punch which isn't directly RNG but because of the nature of the move a lot of Sucker Punch and Thunderclap gameplay is super high variance). Dragonite definitely falls in the super high variance category and it is potent enough as a sweeper to where endgames feel inconsistent playing vs Dragonite. Regardless even if Dragonite is mainly a late game sweeper who's to say that means its not broken? Dragonite lacks immediate power but it makes up for that in the 200 sets it has and it being able to guarantee 1 Dragon Dance every game, against stuff like Roaring Moon you can genuinely position to force it into Tera to DD but Dragonite does not have this weakness as it isn't forced to Tera immediately. This means Dragonite can either A. DD no tera, tera next turn and attack or DD or B. DD Tera, attack or DD next turn depending on if the Tera you are is still favorable against the opposing Pokemon. Unlike Roaring Moon who is always forced to Tera immediately if you position right, Dragonite not only has MORE sets but also has a SECOND 50/50 lmfao. Whether you think Dragonite is good enough at it's job or not as a late game sweeper (imo it is), its an unhealthy Pokemon because of how highest variance as a Sweeper it is and in top ladder and tournament gameplay this is pretty well reflected. "Just position well" does not work against a Pokemon with Multiscale, 7 Tera Types, and different move sets lol.

I think the thing that sets DNite apart from gouging fire or roaring moon is that it has to run Jolly to outspeed pult and Zama after a DD, and Iron valient booster speed after 2. If you run Adamant you can easily get revenged or encored. That loss in power really hurts the match into fat. It also needs boots unless you commit significant resources to hazard control which limits your tools in the builder.

I play with Tera Blast Dnite a lot. Tera Fly after 1 DD doesn't OHKO moltres, (2HKO) Zapdos, Pech, corv, garg with EQ etc. They then threaten status or phasing. All the unaware walls can put a firm halt on DNite even with encore, which means you lose coverage or espeed.

I really think that the tier has tools to handle it on balance, BO, and stall. If you are running offense then you need to beat it offensively which can be frustrating due to set variance, but you can make a laundry list of late game sweepers that can abuse tera to win. It's the ultimate issue vs excitement of Gen 9. I would argue the same logic you're applying to DNite here can and should also be applied to gambit which is even worse since it's ability gives it an insane attack boost as you sack mons.

Moon was so potent because it could hit those benchmarks and taunt/knock to cripple many of it's checks for other sweepers on its team. Gouging could in theory beat dozo in sun with banded raging fury + tera. These had no checks after a DD with the right set which is why I think they deserved the ban but DNite is not in the same category.

 

[658Greninja]

while we are on the topic of Dnite, I want to give my 2-cents on the matter.

I do agree that Dnite is not really that threatening before boost compared to Moon, and even a +1 Dnite isn’t all that bad due to its speed tier. Here is the thing though.

Here’s the other thing.
​

1: Dragonite has the same problem as Volcarona where it has a million different variants with different counterplay and little-to-no no distinguishing on team preview.

2: Dragonite arguably has more setup opportunities than Roaring Moon for a couple reasons. An amazing defensive profile (Multiscale + Dragon/Flying) and the ability to run Boots, Lum, or even Lefties to off-set the shortcomings Moon had before its demise.

I’m gonna be listing the cited counterplay to Dragonite and how reliable they are into all the prominent Dnite sets.

Sets
-Standard DD Three Attacks
-DD Roost
-DD Encore

Notable Moves
-E-Speed
-EQ
-Ice Spinner
-Tera Blast Fairy
-Tera Blast Flying
-Tera Blast Ghost
-Stone Edge
-Low Kick

So….is Dnite actually broken?

Dragonite Counterplay
​

Zama outspeeds Adamant +1 Dnite and can 1v1 it with Iron Defense. Sets like Jolly Encore with Tera Fairy/Flying/Ghost make it a rather shaky check to it. Especially when you consider Zama is gonna be switching into other physical threats before Dragonite comes in.

Gliscor can Toxic Dragonite, but it has to be extremely mindful of Ice Spinner.

Helmet Tusk can usually force Dnite to break Multiscale and outspeed +1 after a Rapid Spin. Tera Blast variants are a huge issue for it however and running Helmet is asking to be run over by Webs or Hazard Stack.

Gambit is usually bulky enough to 1v1 Dnite with Tera and normally gets preserved for the lategame, so keeping it close to full HP is doable. +1 Tera Ground EQ 2HKOs Tera Gambit (besides Tera Flying variants) and sets with Encore and Roost make rkilling it complicated for this shogun.

Ting-Lu can take any hit at around full HP and Whirlwind it out. It can even force Dnite to break Multiscale with Ruination or Helmet variants. This is risky however, because Ting-Lu is an early-to-mid game Pokemon that gets worn down. So its likely not gonna be comfortable with taking on Dnite once its done its job setting hazards and blanket checking major threats. Ice Spinner and Tera Fairy/Flying Blast does a huge chunk to it at +1. Its also worth mentioning that Ting-Lu is less effective as a check in the lategame if Dnite is the last mon standing, especially vs E-Speed variants.

Like Zama, Pult outspeeds Adamant Dnite and can ruin it with either Wisp or Dragon move. Jolly variants will absolutely own this shit tho. So throwing Pult in front of Dnite is a risk.

Balloon Ghold can hardwall E-Speed + EQ Roost Dnite while showing consistent performance vs most other variants besides the rare Fire Punch + Scale Shot sets. Vs max health Dnite though, it’ll still 2HKO with DD-boosted Spinner + EQ. Speaking of that, Roost + EQ/Spinner sets also eat this shit up. Sball doesn’t do enough damage and Roost will heal up anything from MiR. Tera Ground also makes T-Wave risky. Its also not uncommon for Ghold to lose its Balloon, whether its blocking spin or switching into Zama Crunch. The prospect of Tera Ghost Dnite also invalidates it even if Ghold preserves Balloon.

Tera Ghost Booster Valiant can swap into Dnite and lock it into DD via Encore. This does mean however that Val will have to be preserved for the lategame, which is perfectly doable, but if it Val gets forced to burn Booster earlier, than it just becomes another Dnite victim.

Kyurem loses to Tera Normal and Tera Fairy variants. One set I’ve been running is Tera Ice, which turns Kyurem into fodder.

General you can pivot this in back and forth to keep Dnite at +0, but rocks can complicate this. Lando also has to be mindful of Ice Spinner. Plus Lando often gets worn down around the early-to-mid game getting rocks up.

Pecha can eat almost any hit from Dnite at +1 and cripple with Malignant Chain. The thing is, Pecha needs to proc Malignant, otherwise Dnite just kills with 2 Earthquakes.

Bolt loses to Tera Ground variants and has to be mindful of Encore.

Tera Water Garg can deal with the 3 attack DD sets, but will lose to Roost sets unless it packs Curse/Iron Defense. Tera and Salt Cure first, then click Curse/Iron Defense. Our first consistent check.

Stone Edge has picked up in usage, so Molt is not as safe of a check as before. Molt is used to check other threats, so the risk is put in Dnite’s favor. Besides this set, Molt will deal with every Dnite variant that isn’t the rare Tera Fire variants. (inb4 sub dnite variants start rolling in)

Zapdos can take a +1 Stone Edge. It is rather inconsistent vs Tera Ground though. Just hope its not Stone Edge and Static procs.

Tickle Mola should be able to beat almost any Dragonite. Substitute doesn’t really exist (even though ppl should experiment with it since you 1v1 Molt and Mola). Pretty consistent, but hard loses to the stupid fucking ogre.

What people don’t tell you is that Roost Ice Spinner/EQ variants can 1v1 this if it lacks Iron Defense. Iron Defense sets lose to Encore. Iron Defense is not as easy to splash as you’d think. Dropping Defog or U-Turn is difficult to do for BO and Balance. Only Boots Spam and Stall can comfortably slap on Ironpress Corv.

Outspeeds even Jolly Dnite after a boost. Dnite with any Tera however will blow this shit up, especially if its Tera Normal E-Speed.

Needs to preserve Balloon in order to properly check it. Same ordeal as Ghold but even more extreme.

Tera Ghost Weavile could rkill Dragonite, but its not comfortable eating +1 Earthquakes.

As long as the Dnite is not Tera Ghost Blast, its bodying any Dnite.

I’m just gonna leave this here.

Dies to +1 Tera Ground Earthquake (has a 25% to survive Jolly).

Dies to Tera Flying and Encore variants with Ice Spinner or Tera Blast.

This is the most consistent Dnite check in the tier, but its also a Dondozo, so you’re not splashing it on standard builds.

Chomp can force Dnite to break Multiscale with Helmet/Rough Skin and Dtail, but Tera Fairy will turn this into fodder.

Scarf Meow can outspeed and cripple +1 Dnite with Trick. E-Speed will own this shit though if it doesn’t have Tera Ghost.

Rockpon can rkill if it preserves Sturdy, but it’s rarely consistent to do so in a game-to-game basis. +1 Tera Ground EQ kills regardless if it Teras or not.

Washtom is the most underrated mon in SV OU (more on that in a future post) and one of the reasons why is because it hard checks every relevant DD Dnite variant, even the dumbass Tera Blast sets. You wisp and its joever. It isn’t a longterm mon however, but Pain Split and its immunity to Spikes means preserving it for the endgame is more doable than with Ting-Lu. This is about as close to a hard check as you can get that’s not horribly passive or Stall exclusive like Donbozo.

Since Skarm has nothing better to do than to set Spikes, it can actually afford to slot in Iron Defense. Again though, Encore fucks this up royalty, and Whirlwind becomes worthless if Dnite is the last mon out.

Exclusive to Stall. Also…

+ 1 252 Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

pray for the roll.

This beats every common Dnite set except for Tera Blast.

Another underrated asf mon. Volcanion can Tera and wisp Dnite, or force it in due to Dnite usually being the team’s Water resist on a handful of standard builds, resulting in a 30% burn. However its an early game mon and its forced to Tera vs Dnite unless you pack Shuca.

So what do we get from this?

Dragonite’s insane set variety means it is difficult to consistently respond to it. You want the right response vs the right set, but guessing the wrong set means Dnite gets a kill, or worse, another DD, and at that point the game is over. Dnite has also proven to be as consistent if not moreso than Roaring Moon throughout ladder and tournament.

Also take note of how most of these checks either die to Waterpon, or get crippled before Dnite comes in (this is a surpise tool that will help us later). Dnite + Waterpon is a very common core because of how they dominate both the early and lategame. Its nearly impossible to have a full healty Zama or Corv because they’re too busy eating busted ass Cudgels.

However!

There are hard checks to Dnite however. Tera Water Curse Garg, Mola, Tera Steel Latios, Dondozo, and Washtom. Aside from Dozo, these are splashable on Balance/BO and perform outside their role as Dnite checks.

Plus

There is overlap between checks in many teams. The prominence of Gambit, Zama, and Waterpon means most teams will need at least 2 physical checks. Often you’ll see cores of Zama + Molt, Molt + G-Weez, or Tusk + Molt.

So what’s the plan?

When asking how to balance a meta with Tera, I feel it’s best to track down the users that can snowball entire teams with Tera. It has been clear for about 2 years now that the issue is the abusers, not Tera. Using Tera to get a kill or to trade are healthy applications of the move. A majority of the Tera absuers that were banned were sweepers like Volcarona and Roaring Moon. It seems to be the case with Dragonite but to a much less extreme compared to those two. Here are our options.

Option 1: Suspect Dragonite
The first and simplest answer. I wouldn’t ban it outright because there are good arguments to be made that Dnite should stay, especially with how important it is as a glue. A suspect seems natural to give players more time to adapt to a post-Moon era.

Option 2: Suspect Waterpon
Remember when I said that Waterpon is one of the biggest Dnite enablers? Well it’s true. Preserving Zama and Corv HP is hard because of Waterpon’s overwhelming offensive prawless. This enables lategame Dnite and Gambit sweeps very reliably. Waterpon has also been a hot topic for a while due to its limited defensive counterplay. I wouldn’t be against banning it cuz fuck Ivy Cudgel, but I also recognize that Waterpon is one of our only consistent physical breakers. The other one is SD Gliscor which is partially kept in check by stuff like Waterpon and doesn’t have close to the immediate power Waterpon packs. There’s also Samu but the speed tier is lacking. While banning Waterpon is an option to simmer down Dnite, its an option that would have big consequences in making physically-based walls really difficult to muscle through, especially Mola.

Option 3: Suspect Tera Blast
I think this is the best course of action. Without Tera Blast, Tusk and Zama would become more consistent checks. This would also re-introduce Volcarona since Tera Blast sets were a large part of why the moth was ultimately banned. Volcarona would also help out with enforcing Stone Edge and/or Tera Fire on Zama, and Tera Fire on Gambit.

What do you believe is the best solution?

I personally think SV OU is very close to being good. It has alot of variety for teambuilding options and all archetypes are viable at the highest level, but the tier devolving into matchup fishing has soured my taste for Gen 9. The Roaring Moon banned helped alot since there is one less mon to force Knock on Molt/Corv/Lando, but we still have to keep pushing for change.

p.s. please use washtom its deadass the best bulky water in the tier behind mola

 

[Excalibuwrath]

while we are on the topic of Dnite, I want to give my 2-cents on the matter.

I do agree that Dnite is not really that threatening before boost compared to Moon, and even a +1 Dnite isn’t all that bad due to its speed tier. Here is the thing though.

View attachment 734006
Here’s the other thing.
​

1: Dragonite has the same problem as Volcarona where it has a million different variants with different counterplay and little-to-no no distinguishing on team preview.

2: Dragonite arguably has more setup opportunities than Roaring Moon for a couple reasons. An amazing defensive profile (Multiscale + Dragon/Flying) and the ability to run Boots, Lum, or even Lefties to off-set the shortcomings Moon had before its demise.

I’m gonna be listing the cited counterplay to Dragonite and how reliable they are into all the prominent Dnite sets.

Sets
-Standard DD Three Attacks
-DD Roost
-DD Encore

Notable Moves
-E-Speed
-EQ
-Ice Spinner
-Tera Blast Fairy
-Tera Blast Flying
-Tera Blast Ghost
-Stone Edge
-Low Kick

So….is Dnite actually broken?

Dragonite Counterplay
​

View attachment 733913Zama outspeeds Adamant +1 Dnite and can 1v1 it with Iron Defense. Sets like Jolly Encore with Tera Fairy/Flying/Ghost make it a rather shaky check to it. Especially when you consider Zama is gonna be switching into other physical threats before Dragonite comes in.

View attachment 733914Gliscor can Toxic Dragonite, but it has to be extremely mindful of Ice Spinner.

View attachment 733915Helmet Tusk can usually force Dnite to break Multiscale and outspeed +1 after a Rapid Spin. Tera Blast variants are a huge issue for it however and running Helmet is asking to be run over by Webs or Hazard Stack.

View attachment 733931Gambit is usually bulky enough to 1v1 Dnite with Tera and normally gets preserved for the lategame, so keeping it close to full HP is doable. +1 Tera Ground EQ 2HKOs Tera Gambit (besides Tera Flying variants) and sets with Encore and Roost make rkilling it complicated for this shogun.

View attachment 733933Ting-Lu can take any hit at around full HP and Whirlwind it out. It can even force Dnite to break Multiscale with Ruination or Helmet variants. This is risky however, because Ting-Lu is an early-to-mid game Pokemon that gets worn down. So its likely not gonna be comfortable with taking on Dnite once its done its job setting hazards and blanket checking major threats. Ice Spinner and Tera Fairy/Flying Blast does a huge chunk to it at +1. Its also worth mentioning that Ting-Lu is less effective as a check in the lategame if Dnite is the last mon standing, especially vs E-Speed variants.

View attachment 733937Like Zama, Pult outspeeds Adamant Dnite and can ruin it with either Wisp or Dragon move. Jolly variants will absolutely own this shit tho. So throwing Pult in front of Dnite is a risk.

View attachment 733938Balloon Ghold can hardwall E-Speed + EQ Roost Dnite while showing consistent performance vs most other variants besides the rare Fire Punch + Scale Shot sets. Vs max health Dnite though, it’ll still 2HKO with DD-boosted Spinner + EQ. Speaking of that, Roost + EQ/Spinner sets also eat this shit up. Sball doesn’t do enough damage and Roost will heal up anything from MiR. Tera Ground also makes T-Wave risky. Its also not uncommon for Ghold to lose its Balloon, whether its blocking spin or switching into Zama Crunch. The prospect of Tera Ghost Dnite also invalidates it even if Ghold preserves Balloon.

View attachment 733943Tera Ghost Booster Valiant can swap into Dnite and lock it into DD via Encore. This does mean however that Val will have to be preserved for the lategame, which is perfectly doable, but if it Val gets forced to burn Booster earlier, than it just becomes another Dnite victim.

View attachment 733944Kyurem loses to Tera Normal and Tera Fairy variants. One set I’ve been running is Tera Ice, which turns Kyurem into fodder.

View attachment 733945General you can pivot this in back and forth to keep Dnite at +0, but rocks can complicate this. Lando also has to be mindful of Ice Spinner. Plus Lando often gets worn down around the early-to-mid game getting rocks up.

View attachment 733947Pecha can eat almost any hit from Dnite at +1 and cripple with Malignant Chain. The thing is, Pecha needs to proc Malignant, otherwise Dnite just kills with 2 Earthquakes.

View attachment 733950Bolt loses to Tera Ground variants and has to be mindful of Encore.

View attachment 733951Tera Water Garg can deal with the 3 attack DD sets, but will lose to Roost sets unless it packs Curse/Iron Defense. Tera and Salt Cure first, then click Curse/Iron Defense. Our first consistent check.

View attachment 733952Stone Edge has picked up in usage, so Molt is not as safe of a check as before. Molt is used to check other threats, so the risk is put in Dnite’s favor. Besides this set, Molt will deal with every Dnite variant that isn’t the rare Tera Fire variants. (inb4 sub dnite variants start rolling in)

View attachment 733953Zapdos can take a +1 Stone Edge. It is rather inconsistent vs Tera Ground though. Just hope its not Stone Edge and Static procs.

View attachment 733954Tickle Mola should be able to beat almost any Dragonite. Substitute doesn’t really exist (even though ppl should experiment with it since you 1v1 Molt and Mola). Pretty consistent, but hard loses to the stupid fucking ogre.

View attachment 733960What people don’t tell you is that Roost Ice Spinner/EQ variants can 1v1 this if it lacks Iron Defense. Iron Defense sets lose to Encore. Iron Defense is not as easy to splash as you’d think. Dropping Defog or U-Turn is difficult to do for BO and Balance. Only Boots Spam and Stall can comfortably slap on Ironpress Corv.

View attachment 733962Outspeeds even Jolly Dnite after a boost. Dnite with any Tera however will blow this shit up, especially if its Tera Normal E-Speed.

View attachment 733963Needs to preserve Balloon in order to properly check it. Same ordeal as Ghold but even more extreme.

View attachment 733964Tera Ghost Weavile could rkill Dragonite, but its not comfortable eating +1 Earthquakes.

View attachment 733968As long as the Dnite is not Tera Ghost Blast, its bodying any Dnite.

View attachment 733969View attachment 733970
I’m just gonna leave this here.

View attachment 733971Dies to +1 Tera Ground Earthquake (has a 25% to survive Jolly).

View attachment 733972Dies to Tera Flying and Encore variants with Ice Spinner or Tera Blast.

View attachment 733974This is the most consistent Dnite check in the tier, but its also a Dondozo, so you’re not splashing it on standard builds.

View attachment 733975Chomp can force Dnite to break Multiscale with Helmet/Rough Skin and Dtail, but Tera Fairy will turn this into fodder.

View attachment 733977Scarf Meow can outspeed and cripple +1 Dnite with Trick. E-Speed will own this shit though if it doesn’t have Tera Ghost.

View attachment 733980Rockpon can rkill if it preserves Sturdy, but it’s rarely consistent to do so in a game-to-game basis. +1 Tera Ground EQ kills regardless if it Teras or not.

View attachment 733982Washtom is the most underrated mon in SV OU (more on that in a future post) and one of the reasons why is because it hard checks every relevant DD Dnite variant, even the dumbass Tera Blast sets. You wisp and its joever. It isn’t a longterm mon however, but Pain Split and its immunity to Spikes means preserving it for the endgame is more doable than with Ting-Lu. This is about as close to a hard check as you can get that’s not horribly passive or Stall exclusive like Donbozo.

View attachment 733985Since Skarm has nothing better to do than to set Spikes, it can actually afford to slot in Iron Defense. Again though, Encore fucks this up royalty, and Whirlwind becomes worthless if Dnite is the last mon out.

View attachment 733986Exclusive to Stall. Also…

+ 1 252 Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

pray for the roll.

View attachment 733987This beats every common Dnite set except for Tera Blast.

View attachment 733988Another underrated asf mon. Volcanion can Tera and wisp Dnite, or force it in due to Dnite usually being the team’s Water resist on a handful of standard builds, resulting in a 30% burn. However its an early game mon and its forced to Tera vs Dnite unless you pack Shuca.

So what do we get from this?

Dragonite’s insane set variety means it is difficult to consistently respond to it. You want the right response vs the right set, but guessing the wrong set means Dnite gets a kill, or worse, another DD, and at that point the game is over. Dnite has also proven to be as consistent if not moreso than Roaring Moon throughout ladder and tournament.

View attachment 734005

Also take note of how most of these checks either die to Waterpon, or get crippled before Dnite comes in (this is a surpise tool that will help us later). Dnite + Waterpon is a very common core because of how they dominate both the early and lategame. Its nearly impossible to have a full healty Zama or Corv because they’re too busy eating busted ass Cudgels.

However!

There are hard checks to Dnite however. Tera Water Curse Garg, Mola, Tera Steel Latios, Dondozo, and Washtom. Aside from Dozo, these are splashable on Balance/BO and perform outside their role as Dnite checks.

Plus

There is overlap between checks in many teams. The prominence of Gambit, Zama, and Waterpon means most teams will need at least 2 physical checks. Often you’ll see cores of Zama + Molt, Molt + G-Weez, or Tusk + Molt.

So what’s the plan?

When asking how to balance a meta with Tera, I feel it’s best to track down the users that can snowball entire teams with Tera. It has been clear for about 2 years now that the issue is the abusers, not Tera. Using Tera to get a kill or to trade are healthy applications of the move. A majority of the Tera absuers that were banned were sweepers like Volcarona and Roaring Moon. It seems to be the case with Dragonite but to a much less extreme compared to those two. Here are our options.

Option 1: Suspect Dragonite
The first and simplest answer. I wouldn’t ban it outright because there are good arguments to be made that Dnite should stay, especially with how important it is as a glue. A suspect seems natural to give players more time to adapt to a post-Moon era.

Option 2: Suspect Waterpon
Remember when I said that Waterpon is one of the biggest Dnite enablers? Well it’s true. Preserving Zama and Corv HP is hard because of Waterpon’s overwhelming offensive prawless. This enables lategame Dnite and Gambit sweeps very reliably. Waterpon has also been a hot topic for a while due to its limited defensive counterplay. I wouldn’t be against banning it cuz fuck Ivy Cudgel, but I also recognize that Waterpon is one of our only consistent physical breakers. The other one is SD Gliscor which is partially kept in check by stuff like Waterpon and doesn’t have close to the immediate power Waterpon packs. There’s also Samu but the speed tier is lacking. While banning Waterpon is an option to simmer down Dnite, its an option that would have big consequences in making physically-based walls really difficult to muscle through, especially Mola.

Option 3: Suspect Tera Blast
I think this is the best course of action. Without Tera Blast, Tusk and Zama would become more consistent checks. This would also re-introduce Volcarona since Tera Blast sets were a large part of why the moth was ultimately banned. Volcarona would also help out with enforcing Stone Edge and/or Tera Fire on Zama, and Tera Fire on Gambit.

What do you believe is the best solution?

I personally think SV OU is very close to being good. It has alot of variety for teambuilding options and all archetypes are viable at the highest level, but the tier devolving into matchup fishing has soured my taste for Gen 9. The Roaring Moon banned helped alot since there is one less mon to force Knock on Molt/Corv/Lando, but we still have to keep pushing for change.

p.s. please use washtom its deadass the best bulky water in the tier behind mola

Good post. I will say, though, that I don't really think that Dnite is particularly matchup-fishy. Like, it is in the sense that there's always going to be that one set that completely bowls over the opposing team, but the more important aspect about Dragonite to me is that its combination of typing, Multiscale, and Espeed/Encore means that it is extremely splashable on a wide range of team styles without even needing to commit any further moveslots. Tera Blast just isn't really that fishy to run when Jolly with DD + EQ + Espeed/Encore/Roost is a totally functional and threatening mon in its own right and Tera Fly/Fairy each have really good expected value in the majority of matchups. This mon kinda flies under the radar as a threat when people run Tera Normal with EQ + Ice Spinner because it's the least Tera hungry set, but then people remember that it's totally okay to run a Tera Hog set when you build around it so that 90% of the time it's the best Tera option. Like, Fusien beat oldspicemike with a Dnite set that absolutely needs Tera Blast to function, but that team is basically always using Tera on Dnite except for maybe a few matchups where Moth/Rai just autowin.

Also, fwiw if we're talking about actually fishy Dnite sets, Lum is an extremely greedy set that I love bc it allows you to force through Moltres, Pech, Gliscor, etc much easier while also allowing you to do things like set up for free on Pult and Cinderace. Yeah, it's not nearly as splashable, it basically demands very thorough removal to work and will just thud into certain rockers, but it sure does 6-0 certain matchups!

 

[Magcargo]

So I decided to try Mold Breaker Excadrill for a bit after hearing Lily mention how its a potent spinner. Here are two Teams I built with it in mind:

https://pokepast.es/072c05fdf981a011

So this team is basically a big ol copy of the team than Leng made a while back with AV Hatterene and Eject Pack Heatran. I am very fond of this Protective Pads Meowscarada set. I ran it on a different team and it performed absolutely amazingly, cooking a bunch of bulky offense teams that rely on certain cores like Ogerpon-W + Raging Bolt, or teams relying on one of the contact cheese birds. You beat them over time quite nicely with Rocks + Axel Spam. I decided to pair this set with Loaded Dice Dragonite, which is good at luring in Corv for Meowscarada. These two mons love hazards off so I go with the ol reliable core of Spinner + Hat for the best anti-hazard coverage. I like AV hat because it is better at checking Kyurem and Raging Bolt. Paired these guys with Zamazenta. Zamazaenta like's Excadrill's ability to break through Pecharunt, Slowking-G, Moltres, etc. and it is effective at handling annoying guys like Darkrai, Weavile, Gambit, etc. The last slot was dedicated to Heatran, as it can check Dragapult and Gholdengo, setup Rocks, punish contact effects, and benefits from anti-hazard support. I elected to run Covert Cloak on Heatran over Eject Pack because Garg 6-0'd the team otherwise.

This team was a bit haphazardly thrown together, but I thought I was cooking with the concepts. Sadly, random cheese sweepers just blow this shit apart. You know the usual suspects - Gyarados, Quaquaval, Latias, Moltres-G + Grimmsnarl bullshit. The water resist being Dragonite + Meow doesn't bode well vs these Water-type speed boosters that will usually run Ice Coverage. AV Hat is very prone to getting cheesed by Latias and Friends because of course it is. That said, I'd say the weirdest memeber of the team was definitely Heatran. I will admit - this Pokemon could do quite a bit of work - most Gliscor being EQ-less meant that it actually kinda cooks that scorpion, and it could lure a few guys kinda decently w/ TB Fairy. That said, being a Tera Sink vs Tusk, Samu, Zama, Quaquaval even is so fucking ass, esp given that I have another Tera Sink on the team (Dragonite) that could actually win games. Flame body was a mixed bag too. It was pretty nice when it proc'd, but I really felt the lack of a fire resist, esp since Cinderace has no switch-ins on this team lmao. Oh yeah, and Magma Storm sucks ass + Covert Cloak didn't actually beat garg so uh.... whoops. Another issue was the lack of Ground-resist, making Great Tusk a difficult MU. I also didn't like facing Ogerpon-W since none of my switch-ins wanna deal with the Knock U-turn set. Lastly, I had to play a few guessing games against Zamazenta, since the AoE set is very difficult for team to handle.

Exca I think performed fine on this team. Being supported by Hatterene helped, as that let it play around Parting Shot mind-games from Pecharunt + avoid hazards in other ways. That said, the lack of ways to address bad match-ups like Cinderace or Corv was a bit of an issue. I really liked how good it was at luring in and KOing moltres from the amount that I played. Overall it was an OK showing, but I think the team structure could've been improved.

https://pokepast.es/4cfc1989b8c3fce0
This is a pretty jank team, but I tried addressing some of the weaknesses of the prior team. Like before, I decided that I wanted Excadrill to support a few Rocks weak Pokemon. And what better candidate to support than everyone's favorite Ice Dragon, Kyurem! On paper, the two pair well together. Excadrill handles annoying Steel-types + Gking for Kyurem + provides Spin Support, while Kyurem can own Lando-T, Tusk, Zapdos, Ting-Lu, etc. I decided to run the Dice set since that set is apparently broken. Enamorus is here as my speed control + Zamazenta / Dragapult check. With Tera Blast Stellar, it is very good at stopping opposing Teras + can destroy Corviknight. AV Toxapex is my Fire + Water + Darkrai check. I'm of the opinion that this set is still very good when you do not fight Gking, and the idea was that Excadrill is an effective punisher for Gking, letting Pex cook a bit better. I won't lie, the last two slots were me trying to cover as many holes as possible. Cloak Skarmory is my Rocker + Garg switch-in + gambit check lmao. Whirlwind is good at covering cheese sweepers. That said, this Skarm set is also ass - I've almost lost 1v1 to defensive bulk up Tusk a few times. Helmet Gambit is here as my punisher to opposing Gambits clicking attacks, Samu punisher, and Ghold / Rai check. Helmet makes it pretty decent in the 1v1 vs opposing Kingambits. It can also sweep late game with Healing Wish support from Enam. Still it is kinda clear that I am trying to plug a few too many holes with the last few slots lol.

This team is a bit flawed in that it is a bit reliant on getting Rocks off the field. Kyurem can be effective, but as soon as Rocks hit the field, its a UU mon lmao. Due to the lack of longevity on this team, what I noticed is that I can have a pretty effective start, but as the battle progresses, the team proves itself unable to really handle some key defensive guys, namely Corv + Gking Cores, or even other cores like Toxapex + Tusk. AV Pex I'd say is the MVP of the team - still a very good set that provides critical defensive utility vs a few guys like Cinderace or Valiant. I still love this set. Enam was also pretty awesome - when rocks were off the field of course. Excadrill's performance was more middling on this team - I have tera'd it a few times to break a bit better w/ Tera Ground, but the issue becomes that it struggles finding spots to get in. Spinning could be a difficult task on this team due to Excadrill's general difficulty getting on the field + lack of switch-ins miscellaneous threats like Ogerpon-W. Most of the time I tried using Exca to Spin / break Pecharunt, they would usually Tera to screw me over. Against the Gking teams, the issue becasue dealing with the corv that would switch into Excadrill and cook it.

Anyways, I think Excadrill has potential on more "standard" teams ala Iron Treads, but I have found building it as a spinner to be kinda hard, I think owing to the more jank team structures I am running. I may not be covering its weaknesses to Cinderace / Ogerpon-W the best. I think Excadrill has a lot of value on non-sand teams & I'd like to see the cool things other players are able to pull off with it. I think the Exca + Kyurem idea could actually cook if a better player build with it in mind, maybe with something more standard like Pecharunt.

 

[Bold School]

So I decided to try Mold Breaker Excadrill for a bit after hearing Lily mention how its a potent spinner. Here are two Teams I built with it in mind:

https://pokepast.es/072c05fdf981a011

I'm a little surprised you didn't use rocks on Excadrill since you can bypass opposing Hatt. I feel like that's the only reason to run this over Treads

My main problem with Excadrill as a primary spinner is there area lot of fearsome Ghost types (and Tera Ghost) in the tier. So Mold Breaker doesn't really help it do that job better than Treads.

As far as Mold Breaker EQ goes, Air Balloon is everywhere. Levitate is also rarer. Maybe I'm missing some use cases?

 

[CPU]

Mold Breaker should ignore Unaware if I'm not mistaken, making it a good stallbreaker.

 

[Bold School]

Mold Breaker should ignore Unaware if I'm not mistaken, making it a good stallbreaker.

Ah. That would do it. I was wondering where the wallbreaking was coming from.

 

[FayaWizard]

Excadrill is not a good stallbreaker, as it blanks into Corviknight even with Mold Breaker.

Anyways, how does everyone feel about Ogerpon-Teal and Ogerpon-Cornerstone right now? They both made a big splash a while back, but now have mostly faded out of the limelight. When I come across Ogerpon-Cornerstone, I feel like it still puts in the work, but I haven't seen Ogerpon-Teal in ages. Do y'all think they still have potential, or are they simply overshadowed?

 

[Moyashi]

Excadrill is not a good stallbreaker, as it blanks into Corviknight even with Mold Breaker.

Anyways, how does everyone feel about Ogerpon-Teal and Ogerpon-Cornerstone right now? They both made a big splash a while back, but now have mostly faded out of the limelight. When I come across Ogerpon-Cornerstone, I feel like it still puts in the work, but I haven't seen Ogerpon-Teal in ages. Do y'all think they still have potential, or are they simply overshadowed?

Ogerpon-Teal I feel is a decent Mon that just gets overshadowed. The whole “opportunity cost of not being Wellspring” definitely is a limiting factor, but it’s not bad and there’s some potential for surprise factor due to being less common and thus less expected. I’ve encountered Banded variants in the wild ladder which can be deceptively menacing late game if it uses Tera.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone meanwhile is definitely very threatening in the right instance and I’ve had my backside handed to me multiple times from underestimating it just because I had checks to it on a team, but it is hard to fit because of the much more limited defensive utility compared to the other two forms. Still a cool Mon and I’d personally be interested to see it explored more.

 

[mcribs]

Cornerstone is in a weird spot atm. vs HO teams, its probably one of the best mons against it, with the dragon dancers being very afraid of cornerstone pretera(kyu and dnite), while also doing well into araq(not ribombee since it'll set up regardless and mess with your mojo), and with sturdy you can commonly trade very well. Vs other teams its also decent, with balance being absolutely terrified of dealing with it defensively, while stall does not like it as well.

The main issue is how badly it gets out speeded, arguably worse than wellspring, because at least wellspring has defensive traits. Cornerstone's only niche is a thunderclap resist(which while useful, is pretty meh rn with bolt being mildly washed). It also really hates blanking into either ghold or gambit, which can be alleviated through teammates, is very uncomfortable to deal with. sturdy is also pretty overrated on cornerstone, since you can so easily lose the ability through hazards chip or a stray uturn. I think cornerstone could come back on specific offense teams, specifically for that dd killing niche, so maybe a gweezing would work alongside it.

 

[gephicka]

not ribombee since it'll set up regardless and mess with your mojo

i mean not really? if you’re like SD trailblaze or SD encore you setup on bombee, the only way they can actually annoy pon is breaking sturdy w. mb

 

[Welcome to mars]

I think cornerstone is a solid wallbreaker due to its massive power from the mask and good speed tier that allows it to perform well balance, sturdy allows it to take out pokemon that would otherwise kill it and its the only somewhat meta relevant rock type with 100% accurate stab

However, it has competition from wellspring which is the premier wallbreaker in the tier since it has a significant lack of defensive counterplay and an immunity, it also struggles against steel types like ghold, kingambit and even booster energy iron treads since they hit it super effectively and the first two resist its stabs

Another flaw is that its left without an ability if it takes hazard damage as it has no item slot which may require the team it is used on to run hazard removal if they want to utilise to its fill potential, overall its niche due to wellspring being preferred but very much effective

Synthesis can be run to get sturdy back but stone would generally prefer an attack.

 

[mcribs]

i mean not really? if you’re like SD trailblaze or SD encore you setup on bombee, the only way they can actually annoy pon is breaking sturdy w. mb

trailblaze or encore is kinda rare on cornerstone, cuz power whip is just super strong, and losing coverage is annoying. also yeah it'll annoy cornerstone with breaking sturdy

 

[UltraSword]

Excadrill is not a good stallbreaker, as it blanks into Corviknight even with Mold Breaker.

And that is why I am thinking Excadrill should invest in tera blast fire/electric. It is way better than rock slide as it is stronger, more accurate, and hits way more targets in this meta. Also if you do tera fire you are immune to getting burned.

Edit: Actually that brings up a good point. Why the hell are we still using rock slide on Excadrill when it is inaccurate, not that strong, inaccurate, not even STAB, and tera blast is right there.

Edit Again: I said inaccurate twice. Why am I like this?

 

[Finchinator]

I would not personally ban or even suspect Dragonite right now. I think comparisons to Roaring Moon in particular miss the mark as the strength and speed tier differences are drastic. Not going to close down discussions if other feel strongly though. Will elaborate more after my vacation if discussion is still going on.

 

[veti]

I personally do support an eventual Dragonite suspect, none of the individual sets are broken but the sheer number of sets is insane, and what checks one set becomes at best a free kill and at worst setup fodder that loses the game for other dnite sets. Outside of DD, checking Dragonite requires you to account for Earthquake, Ice Spinner, Extreme Speed, Tera Blast Flying, Tera Blast Fairy, Tera Blast Ghost, Encore, Roost, Fire Punch, Scale Shot, Low Kick, Hurricane, Stone Edge/Rock Slide, Dragon Tail, with all of Tera Normal, Tera Flying, Tera Fairy, Tera Fire, Tera Ghost, Tera Ground to watch out for.

However, Tera Blast sets are high cost as all Tera Blast mons are, and there are mons that do well vs most Dragonite sets, like physdef moltres or dondozo. Dragonite is also a premier glue option, checking Ogerpon and having an Extreme Speed that limits a lot of other offensive threats, so I do think its worth considering that even if Dragonite is broken, is its highly valuable defensive utility worth its unpredictability?

Banning Tera Blast would hugely limit what Dragonite can do and probably solves the problem mostly too. Other controversial mon Kyurem gets limited too, Regieleki can be freed, Volcarona probably gets freed, Roaring Moon maybe gets freed but we'll have to wait on that one. I think Tera Blast ban is nice to preserve Dnite while also making it easier to check with mons like Tusk and Zama.

 

[Finchinator]

View attachment 734271
Was waiting for a finch take

FWIW I think if the community feels stronger, that means way more than just me and my opinion — I’m just one guy after all. We also are changing the council in coming days (don’t ask specifics — I’m on vacation rn and nothing finalized), so more opinions will be present.

 

[gephicka]

i think the big thing is, the metagame doesn’t really need a dragonite suspect IMO. dragonite is a key offensive and defensive piece that is a key part of basically every archtype not named stall. it suffers from 4mss big time and unless you run into the absolutely specific set that absolutely cteams you or just get outpositoned, you shouldn’t get swept by it. dnite is a cornerstone of consistency within the tier, i don’t think it’s really bannable at all: every well built team should have multiple mons that can check dnite offensively and defensively, and with tera and its moveset dnite can only really tech to overcome one of its counters at a time. its checks are also metagame staples: encore val, any lu set, zamazenta, corv, bold ghold, tusk, zapdos, moltres, kind of pech- sure, dnite can run dice scale shot + fire punch to hit corv/ghold and dodge static/flame body procs, but then it’s weak to rocks and can’t beat tusk, zama, or lu.

basically, its sets are diverse, sure, but i would argue its counterplay is equally diverse and it’s not a truly problematic mon. i would support a suspect over it as i can respect arguments for its brokenness based on set variety, however again i believe its counters are equally various and that dnite contributes to the skill expression of the tier

i am also more in favor of tera blast action, but i’ve alrdy posted plenty abt that and don’t see the need to yap more

 

[Eeveeto]

Apart from not being broken at all, the only "positive" thing I can see from Dragonite being banned, is that Waterpon would lose one of its biggest offensive checks and as a result, increase the likelihood of it being banned. This is not how things should be done, however.

 

[Bold School]

Excadrill is not a good stallbreaker, as it blanks into Corviknight even with Mold Breaker.

Anyways, how does everyone feel about Ogerpon-Teal and Ogerpon-Cornerstone right now? They both made a big splash a while back, but now have mostly faded out of the limelight. When I come across Ogerpon-Cornerstone, I feel like it still puts in the work, but I haven't seen Ogerpon-Teal in ages. Do y'all think they still have potential, or are they simply overshadowed?

First of all, there is an insane amount of Wellspring on everyone's teams. I have had some difficulty testing my mixed Manaphy set because of it. Wellspring's popularity is something that overshadows the other forms even if they are good.

That said, the base form is kind of trash right now. I think it used to be a lot better. My biggest problem with this is how it becomes basically like a worse Rillaboom, which is also struggling. You need Tera for the speed tier and the STAB is easily resisted. I think I would rather have the utility of G-terrain and terrain boosted priorty rather than a +1 off of 110 base speed. Furthermore, the lack of a different Tera type option such as Fire makes it much harder to do anything about its checks using Tera.

The main thing base Oger is good for is the speed boosted Encore to disrupt setup sweepers. But you do potentially burn your Tera for that. I think maybe you could have some sort of utility Spikes/Knock Off set. At that point, I would rather run Meow. And that is also not the best.

On the other hand, Cornerstone is really good. The STABS are very potent. You need a clean switch, but Sturdy is very good to stop opposing sweepers. You just need proper anti-hazard support to keep the Sturdy in tact. I have run it on a Corv/Ace team and a Geezing team to good success. I'm thinking of experimenting with Sand next.

 

[Articfox2024]

while we are on the topic of Dnite, I want to give my 2-cents on the matter.

I do agree that Dnite is not really that threatening before boost compared to Moon, and even a +1 Dnite isn’t all that bad due to its speed tier. Here is the thing though.

View attachment 734006
Here’s the other thing.
​

1: Dragonite has the same problem as Volcarona where it has a million different variants with different counterplay and little-to-no no distinguishing on team preview.

2: Dragonite arguably has more setup opportunities than Roaring Moon for a couple reasons. An amazing defensive profile (Multiscale + Dragon/Flying) and the ability to run Boots, Lum, or even Lefties to off-set the shortcomings Moon had before its demise.

I’m gonna be listing the cited counterplay to Dragonite and how reliable they are into all the prominent Dnite sets.

Sets
-Standard DD Three Attacks
-DD Roost
-DD Encore

Notable Moves
-E-Speed
-EQ
-Ice Spinner
-Tera Blast Fairy
-Tera Blast Flying
-Tera Blast Ghost
-Stone Edge
-Low Kick

So….is Dnite actually broken?

Dragonite Counterplay
​

View attachment 733913Zama outspeeds Adamant +1 Dnite and can 1v1 it with Iron Defense. Sets like Jolly Encore with Tera Fairy/Flying/Ghost make it a rather shaky check to it. Especially when you consider Zama is gonna be switching into other physical threats before Dragonite comes in.

View attachment 733914Gliscor can Toxic Dragonite, but it has to be extremely mindful of Ice Spinner.

View attachment 733915Helmet Tusk can usually force Dnite to break Multiscale and outspeed +1 after a Rapid Spin. Tera Blast variants are a huge issue for it however and running Helmet is asking to be run over by Webs or Hazard Stack.

View attachment 733931Gambit is usually bulky enough to 1v1 Dnite with Tera and normally gets preserved for the lategame, so keeping it close to full HP is doable. +1 Tera Ground EQ 2HKOs Tera Gambit (besides Tera Flying variants) and sets with Encore and Roost make rkilling it complicated for this shogun.

View attachment 733933Ting-Lu can take any hit at around full HP and Whirlwind it out. It can even force Dnite to break Multiscale with Ruination or Helmet variants. This is risky however, because Ting-Lu is an early-to-mid game Pokemon that gets worn down. So its likely not gonna be comfortable with taking on Dnite once its done its job setting hazards and blanket checking major threats. Ice Spinner and Tera Fairy/Flying Blast does a huge chunk to it at +1. Its also worth mentioning that Ting-Lu is less effective as a check in the lategame if Dnite is the last mon standing, especially vs E-Speed variants.

View attachment 733937Like Zama, Pult outspeeds Adamant Dnite and can ruin it with either Wisp or Dragon move. Jolly variants will absolutely own this shit tho. So throwing Pult in front of Dnite is a risk.

View attachment 733938Balloon Ghold can hardwall E-Speed + EQ Roost Dnite while showing consistent performance vs most other variants besides the rare Fire Punch + Scale Shot sets. Vs max health Dnite though, it’ll still 2HKO with DD-boosted Spinner + EQ. Speaking of that, Roost + EQ/Spinner sets also eat this shit up. Sball doesn’t do enough damage and Roost will heal up anything from MiR. Tera Ground also makes T-Wave risky. Its also not uncommon for Ghold to lose its Balloon, whether its blocking spin or switching into Zama Crunch. The prospect of Tera Ghost Dnite also invalidates it even if Ghold preserves Balloon.

View attachment 733943Tera Ghost Booster Valiant can swap into Dnite and lock it into DD via Encore. This does mean however that Val will have to be preserved for the lategame, which is perfectly doable, but if it Val gets forced to burn Booster earlier, than it just becomes another Dnite victim.

View attachment 733944Kyurem loses to Tera Normal and Tera Fairy variants. One set I’ve been running is Tera Ice, which turns Kyurem into fodder.

View attachment 733945General you can pivot this in back and forth to keep Dnite at +0, but rocks can complicate this. Lando also has to be mindful of Ice Spinner. Plus Lando often gets worn down around the early-to-mid game getting rocks up.

View attachment 733947Pecha can eat almost any hit from Dnite at +1 and cripple with Malignant Chain. The thing is, Pecha needs to proc Malignant, otherwise Dnite just kills with 2 Earthquakes.

View attachment 733950Bolt loses to Tera Ground variants and has to be mindful of Encore.

View attachment 733951Tera Water Garg can deal with the 3 attack DD sets, but will lose to Roost sets unless it packs Curse/Iron Defense. Tera and Salt Cure first, then click Curse/Iron Defense. Our first consistent check.

View attachment 733952Stone Edge has picked up in usage, so Molt is not as safe of a check as before. Molt is used to check other threats, so the risk is put in Dnite’s favor. Besides this set, Molt will deal with every Dnite variant that isn’t the rare Tera Fire variants. (inb4 sub dnite variants start rolling in)

View attachment 733953Zapdos can take a +1 Stone Edge. It is rather inconsistent vs Tera Ground though. Just hope its not Stone Edge and Static procs.

View attachment 733954Tickle Mola should be able to beat almost any Dragonite. Substitute doesn’t really exist (even though ppl should experiment with it since you 1v1 Molt and Mola). Pretty consistent, but hard loses to the stupid fucking ogre.

View attachment 733960What people don’t tell you is that Roost Ice Spinner/EQ variants can 1v1 this if it lacks Iron Defense. Iron Defense sets lose to Encore. Iron Defense is not as easy to splash as you’d think. Dropping Defog or U-Turn is difficult to do for BO and Balance. Only Boots Spam and Stall can comfortably slap on Ironpress Corv.

View attachment 733962Outspeeds even Jolly Dnite after a boost. Dnite with any Tera however will blow this shit up, especially if its Tera Normal E-Speed.

View attachment 733963Needs to preserve Balloon in order to properly check it. Same ordeal as Ghold but even more extreme.

View attachment 733964Tera Ghost Weavile could rkill Dragonite, but its not comfortable eating +1 Earthquakes.

View attachment 733968As long as the Dnite is not Tera Ghost Blast, its bodying any Dnite.

View attachment 733969View attachment 733970
I’m just gonna leave this here.

View attachment 733971Dies to +1 Tera Ground Earthquake (has a 25% to survive Jolly).

View attachment 733972Dies to Tera Flying and Encore variants with Ice Spinner or Tera Blast.

View attachment 733974This is the most consistent Dnite check in the tier, but its also a Dondozo, so you’re not splashing it on standard builds.

View attachment 733975Chomp can force Dnite to break Multiscale with Helmet/Rough Skin and Dtail, but Tera Fairy will turn this into fodder.

View attachment 733977Scarf Meow can outspeed and cripple +1 Dnite with Trick. E-Speed will own this shit though if it doesn’t have Tera Ghost.

View attachment 733980Rockpon can rkill if it preserves Sturdy, but it’s rarely consistent to do so in a game-to-game basis. +1 Tera Ground EQ kills regardless if it Teras or not.

View attachment 733982Washtom is the most underrated mon in SV OU (more on that in a future post) and one of the reasons why is because it hard checks every relevant DD Dnite variant, even the dumbass Tera Blast sets. You wisp and its joever. It isn’t a longterm mon however, but Pain Split and its immunity to Spikes means preserving it for the endgame is more doable than with Ting-Lu. This is about as close to a hard check as you can get that’s not horribly passive or Stall exclusive like Donbozo.

View attachment 733985Since Skarm has nothing better to do than to set Spikes, it can actually afford to slot in Iron Defense. Again though, Encore fucks this up royalty, and Whirlwind becomes worthless if Dnite is the last mon out.

View attachment 733986Exclusive to Stall. Also…

+ 1 252 Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 270-318 (88.8 - 104.6%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

+1 252+ Atk Tera Ground Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 294-348 (96.7 - 114.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

pray for the roll.

View attachment 733987This beats every common Dnite set except for Tera Blast.

View attachment 733988Another underrated asf mon. Volcanion can Tera and wisp Dnite, or force it in due to Dnite usually being the team’s Water resist on a handful of standard builds, resulting in a 30% burn. However its an early game mon and its forced to Tera vs Dnite unless you pack Shuca.

So what do we get from this?

Dragonite’s insane set variety means it is difficult to consistently respond to it. You want the right response vs the right set, but guessing the wrong set means Dnite gets a kill, or worse, another DD, and at that point the game is over. Dnite has also proven to be as consistent if not moreso than Roaring Moon throughout ladder and tournament.

View attachment 734005

Also take note of how most of these checks either die to Waterpon, or get crippled before Dnite comes in (this is a surpise tool that will help us later). Dnite + Waterpon is a very common core because of how they dominate both the early and lategame. Its nearly impossible to have a full healty Zama or Corv because they’re too busy eating busted ass Cudgels.

However!

There are hard checks to Dnite however. Tera Water Curse Garg, Mola, Tera Steel Latios, Dondozo, and Washtom. Aside from Dozo, these are splashable on Balance/BO and perform outside their role as Dnite checks.

Plus

There is overlap between checks in many teams. The prominence of Gambit, Zama, and Waterpon means most teams will need at least 2 physical checks. Often you’ll see cores of Zama + Molt, Molt + G-Weez, or Tusk + Molt.

So what’s the plan?

When asking how to balance a meta with Tera, I feel it’s best to track down the users that can snowball entire teams with Tera. It has been clear for about 2 years now that the issue is the abusers, not Tera. Using Tera to get a kill or to trade are healthy applications of the move. A majority of the Tera absuers that were banned were sweepers like Volcarona and Roaring Moon. It seems to be the case with Dragonite but to a much less extreme compared to those two. Here are our options.

Option 1: Suspect Dragonite
The first and simplest answer. I wouldn’t ban it outright because there are good arguments to be made that Dnite should stay, especially with how important it is as a glue. A suspect seems natural to give players more time to adapt to a post-Moon era.

Option 2: Suspect Waterpon
Remember when I said that Waterpon is one of the biggest Dnite enablers? Well it’s true. Preserving Zama and Corv HP is hard because of Waterpon’s overwhelming offensive prawless. This enables lategame Dnite and Gambit sweeps very reliably. Waterpon has also been a hot topic for a while due to its limited defensive counterplay. I wouldn’t be against banning it cuz fuck Ivy Cudgel, but I also recognize that Waterpon is one of our only consistent physical breakers. The other one is SD Gliscor which is partially kept in check by stuff like Waterpon and doesn’t have close to the immediate power Waterpon packs. There’s also Samu but the speed tier is lacking. While banning Waterpon is an option to simmer down Dnite, its an option that would have big consequences in making physically-based walls really difficult to muscle through, especially Mola.

Option 3: Suspect Tera Blast
I think this is the best course of action. Without Tera Blast, Tusk and Zama would become more consistent checks. This would also re-introduce Volcarona since Tera Blast sets were a large part of why the moth was ultimately banned. Volcarona would also help out with enforcing Stone Edge and/or Tera Fire on Zama, and Tera Fire on Gambit.

What do you believe is the best solution?

I personally think SV OU is very close to being good. It has alot of variety for teambuilding options and all archetypes are viable at the highest level, but the tier devolving into matchup fishing has soured my taste for Gen 9. The Roaring Moon banned helped alot since there is one less mon to force Knock on Molt/Corv/Lando, but we still have to keep pushing for change.

p.s. please use washtom its deadass the best bulky water in the tier behind mola

I agree Dnite is hard to deal with, but its very matchup based. It's exteremly good agianst balance, but as you said, Mola is good agianst it. However that makes Mola or other checks bassicly mandatory, limiting teambuilding. Like Moon, stall checks it with Dondozo, regardless of set. I play HO, and I think it's really hard to deal with then. Tera Normal Espeed just destorys everything since HO mons dont tend to be very bulky. It loses to Screens HO. Being half-flying is important agianst webs, which will sometimes go adamant or modest instead of having a +spe nature, making most pokemon prone to being outspeed when it gets to +1, which ain't hard cuz of multiscale. Tera Normal and Tera Ghost get destoryed by Gambit, which is one of the easist to slot mons for HO, though. It's only the non-standard Tblast sets that are really issues. Waterpon is annoying for balance teams. I don't play balance, I just used to use it and it was broken. Though I am low ladder and higher ladder balance players have ways of dealing with it . When I got a bit higher (still low ladder, though) I dropped it becuase it got outspeed by scarf mons, Jolly Val without booster, and Pult which can do lots of damage with uturn. It isen't an issue for HO, since it lacks priorty. I don't really play nor undertsand stall, but most stall pokemon are weak to it's stabs. Also, waterpon is locked into one possible tera type. I don't really think Waterpon's banworthy, espically since it's not even the issue. I think Tblast should be suspected instead of Dnite. Addtioanly, if tblast is banned, then moon and a lot of other banned pokemon can probably come back to the tier. It also removes the discourse around weather tera is healthy, since a lot of people consider it banworthy due to it making it too easy to beat counters by having an 80bp supereffective STAB move agianst what you though resisted everything it had. Dnite isen't the issue, a broken move probably is.

 

[Rekka's Backend]

Personally I consider Dnite to not be all that broken--It's set variety and utility is unmatched and I deeply appreciate that. In a meta with as many set up sweepers as there are, having a functional panic button that can reliably be brought in multiple times per game is excellent.

With that being said, I also understand the pain of losing to the sheer girth of sets; It's unpredictabiltiy is rough, but IMO I consider it a minor downside for the health it brings to the meta game. I've never really lost against a dnite that felt wholefully unstoppable, unlike Moon or even Volc. A bad predict on dnite can lead to losing a mon, but a bad predict on moon or volc loses you the game

I'd suggest waiting things out. It's worth talking about for sure, but IMO I feel like Dnite is one of the few mons I don't want to see going.

 

[Seraphyde]

There are hard checks to Dnite however. Tera Water Curse Garg, Mola, Tera Steel Latios, Dondozo, and Washtom. Aside from Dozo, these are splashable on Balance/BO and perform outside their role as Dnite checks.

If nearly all of your cited "hard counters" are stallmons and unintuitive balancemons, that's a pretty good sign that something is broken, also,

Tera Steel Latios loses to the rare Fire Punch variants
M*la is total setup fodder, and can only reliably check Dnite through mashing Scald or Play Rough (which is not common), and it loses to Encore and bulky Roost variants outright as it can get outstalled and set up on by them.
And Washtom is seriously washed.

So that's two so-called counters that aren't actually counters and two UUmons to boot. Not a good sign, and the fact that you mention that these are splashable only on balance and BO only cements the fact that BO is starting to get out of hand.