OK dude I appreciate your enthusiasm and I am glad people are seeing dragonite as a top tier threat (finally) but it is not broken lol. Dragonite is a very strong pokemon with amazing coverage (thank you earthquake and ice spinner) but it has a lot of problems like being walled by a lot of bulky pokemon from a(lomola)-z(amazenta) and it gets destroyed by multi hit attacks from pokemon like kyurem and weavile (which are both ice types so hey).
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
I said *arguably*, and while it’s on me for not making this clear I was referring to the individual qualities that I listed. Dragonite has a much easier time setting up, can spam ES more because it’s priority and can nuke resists with Earthquake or Fire Punch, is a more egregious user of Encore thanks to its bulk, and can actually switch in on something. Arguably, it’s also better at boosting, DD is notorious for having broken several Pokemon such as Gouging Faceplate and the speed boost makes it a lot harder to respond to especially because you can just get out-prioritied barring Scizor or Metagross that can out-bulk ES, the latter of which loses to the omnipresent Earthquake and the former gets nuked by Fire Punch.
Edit: Ice Spinner Iron Treads with its Booster Energy intact can take care of it fine I guess. Not going to list off every other counter that comes to mind.
My point is that it’s disingenuous to get on Waterpon’s ass because the qualities that make it “broken” barring the free SpDef boost are shared by other Pokemon. “Immediate power” is also a meme argument because the same thing can be said about Darkrai. I do not actually think this tier needs more bans of offensive Pokemon, but I’d support nuking the Obese Dragon before Ogerbroad because the only value it provides to the tier is an insurance policy against the Choice Scarf.
from the looks of it, the useful life of this discussion has long since ended but i'm going to quickly address this point anyway:
gouging fire was banned because of the sheer amount of damage it could dish out in addition to its bulk granting it easy setup on anything that isn't choice specs kyurem. dragonite has the bulk to set up freely but it's not good as a wallbreaker period, it has far too many defensive checks and buffers that gouge simply never had. even if you run offense and are finding yourself struggling against it, most teams will have a fat steel type + at least one tera ghost pokemon in the back to deal with it easily. it's not like you have to go out of your way to fit one of these two onto a team either, these are widely applicable options and have far more utility beyond just checking dnite. i'm not sure if you are using and/or building teams that are weak to dragonite or if you just aren't preserving your checks to it, but it is by all means possible for all playstyles to deal with dnite. it's a great pokemon for sure but it has several noticeable flaws that keep it in line
TLDR: as it stands now, dragonite is balanced and ogerpon-W is also balanced. this conversation is going absolutely nowhere and i suggest that you all change the subject and be more civil with one another
Jaded post incoming:
Why is Quick Claw allowed? Luck-based strategies are largely outlawed otherwise. Yes, the item is “bad” on paper.
I loaded up a game with quite an offensive team. Get matched up against one of those Quick Claw spam teams. I had no chance. Iron Hands set up a Swords Dance and proceeded to RNG steamroll through half my team. The battle was over before big joker Glowbro even saw the field.
Why is Quick Claw allowed? Luck-based strategies are largely outlawed otherwise. Yes, the item is “bad” on paper.
I loaded up a game with quite an offensive team. Get matched up against one of those Quick Claw spam teams. I had no chance. Iron Hands set up a Swords Dance and proceeded to RNG steamroll through half my team. The battle was over before big joker Glowbro even saw the field.
Quick Claw is legal because it's ass. While I would be happy to ban its uncompetitive BS, it is definitely a dogshit cheese strategy that rarely works. So that's why it's legal. I do question why it's legal because it's banned in gen 8, however.
It’s dogshit on paper, sure.
But just as no one wants to fight a Fissure Ting Lu, I don’t want to see Quick Claw Iron Hands or some other fat shit that can exploit the stupid RNG.
I double checked and Quick Claw isn’t banned in Gen 8 but it came close to being banned. The reason for this (IIRC) was Galarian Slowbro’s ability Quick Draw giving it a free Quick Claw. Combine this with an actual Quick Claw and your 30% chance to go first is now 44%. Having nearly a 50% chance to go first regardless of speed is stupid, but like you said, it remains legal because it’s a dogshit cheese strategy that rarely works.
Oh, was it lax incense + kings rock that was banned? Makes sense, whoops. Quick Claw is still BS, though. Glowbro is funny as shit but it's uncompetitive.
hasn't kings rock been banned since like gen 5?
IIRC Cloyster brought it to a ban in gen 8. I'm a newgen though and only started around Archaludon ban time, so idk. Correct me on this.
King's Rock got banned during Gen 8 because of Cloyster and it got banned by default for Gen 9
You are ignoring the fact that you can just wisp it first, and then switch out to practically anything to wall Dnite. Second of all, if Dnite lacks Ice Spinner or Outrage it can't even do anything back to Pult if it is burned, and even then it only does around 43%. Not all Dnite are Tera Fire and Dragapult also has a Espeed immunity to revenge kill Dnite reliably as long as you haven't let it boost twice. "Corv and Skarm wall a lot of things though" is not an argument lmao you can't just say "Dreepy gets walled by Corv and Skarm but Corv and Skarm wall a lot of things" as a reason for why that's not a drawback. You also don't even have to status Dnite first, literally just Darts it twice since again you have Espeed immunity. If it teras out of Dragon into something that's not fire you just wisp it.
I was actually testing out a set with DD Espeed Fire Punch EQ as my water resist on a team that could deal with Gliscor and I literally had to use Tera Fire to do anything against Skarm or Corv, at that point I just switched over to Tera Blast lol.
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Unfortunately population bomb has dogshit accuracy. So that isn't actually all that crazy. In AG, I love doing Agility + Hone Claws Baton Pass though. Absolute nuke and wallbreaks nearly forever. Shitty set but it's fun.
still not as cheap as subtect kyurem.
I come back to check the OU thread and feel like fieryroompizza.gif everytime
anyways
I wanted to formally post a notice due to the fact I talk to a great deal of ppl here in dm's off and on, so as a blanket response to everyone:
I wish all you usual OU posters well! I will not get to play for an uncertain amount of time due to factors outside of my control, so I hope you all have fun with your suspects and arguing. For anyone that has DM'd me for team advice or similar I'll check my Dm's occasionally and try to keep up with important threads, but I've had a fun year growing with you all! I hope to come back to ladder to scrub it up in the future!!
anyways
I wanted to formally post a notice due to the fact I talk to a great deal of ppl here in dm's off and on, so as a blanket response to everyone:
I wish all you usual OU posters well! I will not get to play for an uncertain amount of time due to factors outside of my control, so I hope you all have fun with your suspects and arguing. For anyone that has DM'd me for team advice or similar I'll check my Dm's occasionally and try to keep up with important threads, but I've had a fun year growing with you all! I hope to come back to ladder to scrub it up in the future!!
Maybe its stupid, but wouldn't thunder punch in place of espeed cover most shit anyways? You're already fast as fuck (boye) if you pull off thr ddances.
E-speed is the main reason you use dragonite, as it allows it to have a great matchup into offensive teams by simply outspeeding them, no matter what. Dragonite at +1 isn't really too fast, and getting off multiple dd's is extremely difficult (you don't outspeed booster valiant at +2 speed, so it can still revenge kill you) as after multiscale is broken, its bulk is only alright (91/95/100 isn't bad by any means, but due to dragonite having a 4x weakness to ice, along with a weakness to dragon and fairy, its going to be taking massive damage in return).
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Thunder Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 192-228 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 42.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
And besides, you ain't doing much damage back to them (corv will just id up regardless, so you are doing less and less damage) as t-punch frankly has too low bp to work.
I think the idea of Dragonite being OP has some merit. I wouldnt ban it myself, but the mon is Gouging Lite.
Sure if you look at the standard DD set, it's pretty unassuming and easy to check. But the amount of variations it can perform while still remaining effective is crazy. Tera Blast Flying, Encore, Scale shot + Fire Punch, Facade, weirdo Fire Spin sets, Dragon Tail, even crap like Stone edge. You can basically run whatever set you want on this mon and still remain moderately effective. Tera variation is also much higher on this mon than it seems at first glance - Tera Flying, Fairy, Fire, Normal, Ground, and a few more niche types can all cook while being reasonably effective. This mon picks and chooses what it can beat quite easily.
One could argue that Dragonite is more OP than Moon and I don't think they would be wrong... Tera + Multiscale let's this mon get away with some crazy stuff and it can feel a bit Zamazenta-esque with CB vs a few of the lower end BO teams.
During OLT this year, I saw a lot more Dragonite sweeps than Gouging Fire ones on the few teams I saw it on. I think Mimili ran both and they'd usually sweep with TB fly Dragonite iirc.
Sure if you look at the standard DD set, it's pretty unassuming and easy to check. But the amount of variations it can perform while still remaining effective is crazy. Tera Blast Flying, Encore, Scale shot + Fire Punch, Facade, weirdo Fire Spin sets, Dragon Tail, even crap like Stone edge. You can basically run whatever set you want on this mon and still remain moderately effective. Tera variation is also much higher on this mon than it seems at first glance - Tera Flying, Fairy, Fire, Normal, Ground, and a few more niche types can all cook while being reasonably effective. This mon picks and chooses what it can beat quite easily.
One could argue that Dragonite is more OP than Moon and I don't think they would be wrong... Tera + Multiscale let's this mon get away with some crazy stuff and it can feel a bit Zamazenta-esque with CB vs a few of the lower end BO teams.
During OLT this year, I saw a lot more Dragonite sweeps than Gouging Fire ones on the few teams I saw it on. I think Mimili ran both and they'd usually sweep with TB fly Dragonite iirc.
Dragonite is not broken. There is counterplay across the board. Sometimes it is annoying for offense and has swings that can add or subtract certain counterplay, but it’s not more extreme or damning than a dozen other things.
Gliscor suspect is still planned and upcoming soon. Perhaps later this week or the start of next week. There will be infrastructure in place to assure a smoother suspect this time around.
Gliscor suspect is still planned and upcoming soon. Perhaps later this week or the start of next week. There will be infrastructure in place to assure a smoother suspect this time around.
Dragonite is quite annoying but still far down the list of stupid broken mons.
Gliscor will not be missed. No one likes this cancer.
Follow re: Quick Claw.
I tested Quick Claw Kingambit yesterday and was surprised how stupidly cheap this item is. It’s a 20% chance each turn of free, unadulterated cheese. I chose Kingambit because it doesn’t “need” any item to do what it does. I was surprised how often it cheaped people out of mons. Sequences where I was going to Kowtow or Iron Head anyway in anticipating living a hit, were too often rewarded with a free kill.
Gliscor will not be missed. No one likes this cancer.
Follow re: Quick Claw.
I tested Quick Claw Kingambit yesterday and was surprised how stupidly cheap this item is. It’s a 20% chance each turn of free, unadulterated cheese. I chose Kingambit because it doesn’t “need” any item to do what it does. I was surprised how often it cheaped people out of mons. Sequences where I was going to Kowtow or Iron Head anyway in anticipating living a hit, were too often rewarded with a free kill.
The last mon 4% Iron Valiant clicking Vacuum Wave before seeing “The opposing Kingambit’s Quick Claw allowed it to move faster!” and dying to sucker
Quick claw makes the user go first in there priority bracket, it doesn't give +1 priority to the attack.
The Quick Claw Kingambit about to be shamoned by vacuum wave: