Fenris Wolf has no business in the tier either. Let alone people having to put it on every team for shit like Gambit, Ogerpon-W, and Kyurem. All cracked mons.
Exactly.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Ah, that makes more sense. NpNp
Personally I just think curbing the power of set up sweepers could do a lot for the tier, but if I'm being honest part of this is just venting.
interrupting chat to say that I finally got top 500 OU! looking for 1800 as final goal
i built this team for kyu reqs, pretty cheesy HO but it has some nice options
https://pokepast.es/d953f585fe753ddd
>memento glimmora is INSANE, shit got me so many setup opportunities against lead treads/hamurott/tusk and allowed me to set up on iron crown switch-ins with roaring moon. i credit memento for at least 50 games won i SWEAR to god this is a broken set
>3 attacks no tblast moth is the best set imo. tera blast is gimmick cheese and i want tera to be flying to cheese toxic + quake mons like scor and clod. energy ball fucks up garg, which is nice.
>otherwise this is a standard cheese HO, i recommend. easy to play!
i'm really happy about my current elo. someone even appeared in my final game to say i was their favourite smogonposter (tysm btw :3) and i can now rest easy amidst the statements of me being a shitty player which i've heard. am i a shitty player? yes absolutely. but am i better? yea.
anyways yeah, try out the team, try out memento glimmora PLEASE IT'S SO BROKEN, and happy laddering!
I bet you 10 to 1 if mega pinsir was still here it would be an almost perfect counter to wogerpon (unless I am mistaken and if I am feel free to tell me why)
A counter is a mon that can switch in and force a mon out more than once.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Pinsir-Mega: 159-187 (58.6 - 69%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Mega Pinsir does not have the bulk to be an Ogerpon-Wellspring counter even if Quick Attack does revenge her from a high % of HP.
252 Atk Aerilate Pinsir-Mega Quick Attack vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 206-246 (68.4 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
>doesn't resist Water
cooking
okay but what no it literally dies to unboosted cudgel after rocks and it can't even OHKO after rocks AND spikes with quick attack. this is not a counter, this is not a check. mega pinsir is a fake answer to waterpon and the only times it ever wins are if pon is chipped or tries to switch in.
also waterpon teams have hazards and uhh… yeah quad rock weak mon that can’t hold boots.
I mean, for all its strengths, I would've thought there'd be much more rallying against Ogerpon-Wellspring considering how often it can just trounce balanced structures, so I can only conclude that it's avoided discussion so far because people hate fighting against Alomomola and Gliscor and friends that much (And for good reason, my god). Either that or people mostly just out-offense it as their way of dealing with it, which works too.
It is kinda busted, but switch in opportunities are a bit limited because of hazards, it's bulk isn't stellar, and it may find it a bit awkward clicking it's moves against Raging Bolt, Dragonite, and a few others. I feel that Samurott-H's presence hurts it due to how easily it can set up hazards vs Oger-W's team. The lack of item and Tera flexibility also hurt. This is part of the reason why I have been liking Samurott-H more as of late - it is more flexible with Tera / item choice, has a better STAB combo, and has more utility between its typing, broken ass move, and priority. At base Oger-W's tools are strong, but a well-played Samurott-H feels like it has a much higher skill ceiling to me personally, especially when we account for the flexibility it has.
And as you say, limiting mola is a godsent. There is nothing more frustrating than mola getting a free turn on Tusk, clicking Wish, and healing the opponent's tusk / Kingambit, / raging bolt back to full. While I want Oger-W to eventually be looked at, It would be under the stipulation that Mola eventually gets looked at as well.
Alomomola in Ubers would be so fucking funny oh my god. All the memes about mola going to ubers would become true LMAOOOOOO
Okay but idt mola will ever be broken. Gen 8 clefable was never banned, was it? Support pokemon simply never get banned unless they make certain strategies nearly unstoppable, like Gen 6 meye or Gliscor.
This is more of an indictment against Tera Blast than Kyurem
Ogerpon-W is easily limited by strong pivoting and priority. It dies to two U-turns and First Impression, with minimal hazard chip you can even nuke it with one U-turn. If you forced a Tera, then just bring in a Water resist. It also basically can’t switch into anything that isn’t resisted, CE into Sucker makes Ogerbroad cry. The main things that make it “broken” are issues not exclusive to it, namely
>Ivy Cudgel is buttfuckingly spammable
>Tera makes its breaking power insane
>Good STAB combination and coverage (lmao)
>Encore
All of these can also be said about Dragonite and Dragonite is arguably worse about them because of Multiscale guaranteeing the opportunity to Dragon Dance and the ability to hold an item. The only thing that kind of makes Oger broken is its Tera gimmick but that comes with the drawback of making its Tera’s insanely predictable, Tera Grass Iron Moth or Heatran just completely defecates inside of Ogerbroad’s mouth, same thing with Serperior or Rilaboom, it’s really not that hard to deal with.
About Mola, it’s always been broken, people are just starting to wake up to it. The idea that Regenerator, especially on a mon with pivot moves, is anything but unhealthy is simply idiotic. Oger and Kyurem are the only two things that can always reliably answer Mola (just like Gliscor), other special attackers have to be wary of Mirror Coat and the rare AV Play Rough, it’s basically required that you either have one of those two mons or get lucky and manage to paralyze it AND get consecutive full para turns in order to take it down, or you have a Darkrai and you manage to double flinch the little shithead AND it doesn’t start clicking Protect.
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Dnite hits NOWHERE near as hard as Wellspring. Dnite is a sweeper. Wellspring is a breaker that's fast, has great defensive utility, and is literally unwallable unless you click Tera Dragon on Dondozo (who loses to Knock anyways). Dnite hits you with an 80 BP move that's fast. Wellspring hits you with a 120 BP STAB move with a high crit ratio and no contact. It's not even close.
Dnite is ABSOLUTELY not broken. Mola may be, but I don't think so. Wellspring 100% is. I can't stand to see one more DNB argument for the mon that hits as hard as Hoopa.
252 SpA Life Orb Darkrai Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 263-309 (81.4 - 95.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I’m not going to act like Dragonite is near as broken as Gouging Faceplate but they have the same issue in that they have the natural bulk to set up on basically anything. It can facetank even a boosted super effective hit, DD, and then outspeed and KO back with Outrage or Tera Normal Extremely Fast, and it can also Encore opposing sweepers, either before or after a speed boost. It has little offensive counter play, basically requiring you to have a super-effective multi-hit move (which can be invalidated by Tera) or paralyzing it with a Ghost type OR burning it (which Tera Fire is becoming more common on it). I don’t know why you pulled Poopa-Unbound out of your ass regarding the Wellspring.
All that being said, I at least appreciate the fact that its presence in the tier keeps Choice Scarf users in check. Words cannot describe how much I hate the Choice Scarf.
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Weaterpon can be limited pretty easily with Dragons along with it being pretty easy to just sack a mon and then force it out. I feel like a major difference between them is how much skill it takes to use them. Waterpon is literally just SD/Ivy Cudgel and punch a hole into something, and you kind of get value even if you fuck it up because it just naturally hits so hard and you can just switch it in later and set up on passive mons. With Dnite you kind of get punished for letting it take unnecessary damage because of Multiscale and since it doesn’t have a STAB move on most sets and can’t really hit everything it wants on the same set it takes better timing and careful weakening of checks to work imo.
Outrage is extremely easy to take advantage of, Espeed is not breaking through Skarm or Corv, Encore forces you to give up coverage, “no offensive counterplay” lmao Dragapult owns Dnite 1 on 1 with its most popular set. It also struggles to cover everything with the same set, DD Espeed eq ice spinner gets walled by Corv and Skarm for example.
hoopa's knock is a 97.5 BP move coming from 419 attack (252 Atk). (40.8k)
wellspring's power whip is a 144 BP move coming from 339 attack (252 Atk). (48.8k)
Can hoopa hold an item? Yes! Is it usually AV? Yes! Just wanted to show how obscenely strong Wellspring is by the numbers. Also, Wellspring has defensive utility and is MUCH faster lmao
Are the strong First Impression users really that good? Lokix dies to hazards even moreso than Wellspring and has Negative defensive utility, and Slither Wing isn't much more common either (which is a shame since it's pretty neat). You can argue Sucker Punch 'till the Miltanks come home, but if Wellspring clicks Encore, it gets hella dicey.
Knowing how sharp the Cudgel is won't stop the impact from hurting. Also, if Moth and Heatran have to Tera to answer Wellspring, isn't that a net neutral in some cases? You're exausting your Tera just to answer Wellspring, which it's teammates will be kore than happy to capitalize on. Also, that SpDef boost is lowkey pretty good, and shedding the Grass typing's weaknesses is deceptively good
Switches Rillaboom into Wellspring
The opposing Wellspring used U-Turn!
Also, Kyurem is not as sturdy into Wellspring as you can think. It's a Gliscor situation all over again. Wellspring might hate Freeze Dry, but Kyurem hates Wellspring. In an ideal world, Wellspring will only risk it if it knows it can win, which is more realistic than Kyurem's ideal scenario. Unless you run Scarf Kyurem.
Really, the best Wellspring answers that i've seen are Zamazenta, Amoongus and Sinistcha. They're the only ones i've seen regularly force Wellspring out regardless of what set it has. Otherwise, you either have to burn a Tera or out offense it. Not too ideal.
Corv and Skarm wall a lot of things though
I find Dragapult to be only somewhat reliable in stopping that fat piece of shit. I run TWave but if it misses it’s game over, and if you run Wisp it can go Tera Fire. Also
76 Atk Dragapult Dragon Darts (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 210-252 (65 - 78%) -- approx. 2HKO
It’s a three-step process, you first have to status it, then you have to Darts it, then you have to Darts it AGAIN, and all of that assumes that it doesn’t Tera.
Dragonite is good (carried me lmao) but the issue is that it's kinda easy to stop in the midgame and only acts as an endgame cleaner. Dnite will never sweep early like Moth and Moon will, which is why I consider it healthier.
Did I just read Dragonite is more broken than Ogerpon-W?
Dragonite doesn’t even have competitively usable STAB.
Mola is unhealthy??? (Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor, Kyurem, Zama, Raging Neck, and Gholdengo all exist…)
Yikes.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 486-572 (124.2 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 588-696 (167.5 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 482-568 (123.2 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-334 (88.9 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 231-272 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 462-544 (143 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, I’ve been advising fellow Zapdos users to run Tera Dragon and invest 16 EVs into special attack. Because you need them.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
16 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Dragonite doesn’t even have competitively usable STAB.
Mola is unhealthy??? (Kingambit, Ogerpon-W, Gliscor, Kyurem, Zama, Raging Neck, and Gholdengo all exist…)
Yikes.
Intimidate Salamence is the only Dragon that won’t drop dead into +2(+1) Play Rough. They all croak. Dragonite can live only IF Multi- Scale is intact but doesn’t do any immediate meaningful damage back.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kyurem: 486-572 (124.2 - 146.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 588-696 (167.5 - 198.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Raging Bolt: 482-568 (123.2 - 145.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 282-334 (88.9 - 105.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 231-272 (71.5 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dragonite: 462-544 (143 - 168.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Also, I’ve been advising fellow Zapdos users to run Tera Dragon and invest 16 EVs into special attack. Because you need them.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Zapdos: 298-352 (77.8 - 91.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 296-350 (98.3 - 116.2%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
16 SpA Zapdos Hurricane vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Ogerpon-Wellspring: 302-356 (100.3 - 118.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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good news everybody, we're bringing back the life orb darkrai calcs, because that is 100% a real set and darkrai is definitely broken guys no way would it be balanced in OU please don't drop it see it beats gambit 4% of the time literally unwallable!1!111!!!!.
also ur supposed mystical dragonite set that can "outspeed and KO back" doesnt actually outspeed and ko back much because steel types exist. kingambit is like on 120% of teams please be real. even if you disregard that, AND limit yourself to only offensive counterplay:
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 240-283 (82.7 - 97.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 261-307 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 12 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 238-282 (69.5 - 82.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Outrage vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 180-213 (46.3 - 54.8%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
all of this is absolutely ignoring how much of a tera hog it is, because without tera you get some absolutely pathetic results like this:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Weavile: 209-246 (74.3 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 124 Def Iron Moth: 186-219 (61.7 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
AND ignoring the actual defensive mons that beat it:
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 248+ Def Moltres/Zapdos: 255-301 (66.5 - 78.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 129-152 (32.7 - 38.5%) -- 4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 244+ Def Primarina: 193-228 (53 - 62.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Outrage vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 114-135 (28.5 - 33.8%) -- 98.9% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 252 HP / 204+ Def Hatterene: 171-202 (53.7 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So you have a mon that is a tera hog, is checked by anything slightly defensive even after tera, is completely countered by our air balloon steels, dies to status, forced into an item, and is vulnerable to pretty much every anti-cheese measure in the tier. Skill issue.
One thing I do think should be iterated for Wellspring is that the Mask not only provides a free power boost to literally all its damage, but also means Knock Off doesn't make progress against it from Utility Mons vs attackers. The trade-off has been noted in not allowing Boots to alleviate a Hazard problem, but it's not exactly a strict negative that you just have to accept when playing Ogerpon.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bearing in mind that Iron Valiant has a bit of Base ATK and 20 BP over Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel here, as far as just raw numbers, while Oger's moves are always Consequence-free for it to land in-and-of-themselves.
This is where I consider the Dragonite comparison particularly flimsy, because that mon lives and dies by its item AND Tera to optimize Multiscale, set-up turns, and damage from its otherwise non-STAB priority. Compromise any of these resources and Dragonite becomes significantly harder to play compared to an Ogerpon lacking any of them (excepting the item comparison for obvious reason).
Going to add an endorsement for Sinistcha to the conversation for the same reason, also serving as a good Ground check, Spin-blocker, and Win Condition depending on the set, while being a particularly useful Wellspring answer as long as Play Rough is its standard for all the Dragons. Matcha Gotcha threatens a burn and drain (undoing progress against a fast-paced power mon that already hates Chip) while Strength Sap provides healing and stops momentum from ANYTHING Physical both present or switched in, while different sets can further exploit it with Calm Mind to set-up and Foul Play to Punish a SD as long as you're in decent health.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 185-218 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sinistcha Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 226-267 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While I'm singing Sinistcha's praises, SD Gliscor absolutely DESPISES this thing, and Defensive/Spikes sets only have Toxic to throw at it (so if it absorbs a status or you REALLY hate Gliscor and tech in Substitute maybe). Given one of the styles Gliscor seems to exploit the hardest is Bulky teams and Fat Balance that can't pressure it, Sinistcha might do well for play into it along with Wellspring as another concerning breaker.
252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Ivy Cudgel vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mew: 186-219 (54.5 - 64.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 196-232 (57.4 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Bearing in mind that Iron Valiant has a bit of Base ATK and 20 BP over Ogerpon's Ivy Cudgel here, as far as just raw numbers, while Oger's moves are always Consequence-free for it to land in-and-of-themselves.
This is where I consider the Dragonite comparison particularly flimsy, because that mon lives and dies by its item AND Tera to optimize Multiscale, set-up turns, and damage from its otherwise non-STAB priority. Compromise any of these resources and Dragonite becomes significantly harder to play compared to an Ogerpon lacking any of them (excepting the item comparison for obvious reason).
This is just a consequence of the item's one-time-use nature that it was designed around (trading the item slot and a fleeting buff for not needing specific team support), which invariably favors using it to make a pivotal play rather than prolonged action (also see Lures with the resist berries, Focus Sash on Suicide Leads to ensure Hazards, or just Unburden in general as an ability). Playing a mon like IV to aggressively go for a Sweep is just a more efficient use of Booster Energy than reacting to a Speed-control need since you can't do that repeatedly with it if the opponent can (such as an aggressive Scarfer or being able to set-up in multiple instances), and if it's not a healthy dynamic that falls more on the offensive traits that allow Valiant to turn 1 round into a Sweep with its huge mixed offenses, coverage and set-up move options across sets. Many items exist that inherently favor a particular method of play, and the users/abusers will be those with kits tailored to that style.
Has to be noted for one thing that Grasspon is very well ranked in the tier (Strong Grasses offer quite a bit in this Meta), the largest reason it's not OU by usage probably lies in the fact that it's mutually exclusive from Wellspring, which obviously is a very widespread Pokemon. Citing that the mon is not OU by usage should not matter as much as discussing if the Pokemon can put in work beyond the discussed match-up (see Bronzong into Kyurem).
Going to add an endorsement for Sinistcha to the conversation for the same reason, also serving as a good Ground check, Spin-blocker, and Win Condition depending on the set, while being a particularly useful Wellspring answer as long as Play Rough is its standard for all the Dragons. Matcha Gotcha threatens a burn and drain (undoing progress against a fast-paced power mon that already hates Chip) while Strength Sap provides healing and stops momentum from ANYTHING Physical both present or switched in, while different sets can further exploit it with Calm Mind to set-up and Foul Play to Punish a SD as long as you're in decent health.
+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Tera Water Ogerpon-Wellspring-Tera Ivy Cudgel vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Sinistcha: 185-218 (53.4 - 63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252 Atk Sinistcha Foul Play vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Ogerpon-Wellspring: 226-267 (75 - 88.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
While I'm singing Sinistcha's praises, SD Gliscor absolutely DESPISES this thing, and Defensive/Spikes sets only have Toxic to throw at it (so if it absorbs a status or you REALLY hate Gliscor and tech in Substitute maybe). Given one of the styles Gliscor seems to exploit the hardest is Bulky teams and Fat Balance that can't pressure it, Sinistcha might do well for play into it along with Wellspring as another concerning breaker.
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>dragonite is more broken than waterpon
i cannot take this fucking thread seriously anymore
Dragonite and Waterpon are such fundamentally opposing pokemon it's impossible to compare them. Dragonite is a slow sweeper that sets up slowly (Ddance is only a +1 attack) and its STAB combination is completely a non-question as neither of the types are particularly good in a meta with steel-types everywhere and it needs 2 non attacking moves in roost and dragon dance to do its job. Waterpon has a better boosting move for what it does, an actually usable stab combination, and access to much better coverage on top of not even needing to tera to hit hard.
Dragonite is a sweeper, Waterpon is a breaker. They are so fundamentally different that a comparison is just straight up stupid. This thread is making me lose my mind lmao
Something something BKC quote
Attachments
OK dude I appreciate your enthusiasm and I am glad people are seeing dragonite as a top tier threat (finally) but it is not broken lol. Dragonite is a very strong pokemon with amazing coverage (thank you earthquake and ice spinner) but it has a lot of problems like being walled by a lot of bulky pokemon from a(lomola)-z(amazenta) and it gets destroyed by multi hit attacks from pokemon like kyurem and weavile (which are both ice types so hey).