So ban half of the tier then
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [NEW TIERING RESULTS POST 11597]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
If it needs to be done, then so be it. Or do you prefer the current state of "broken checks broken"?
Realistically, yes lol, a mon shouldn't be kept because it's good glue if it's broken - if it's broken it gets banned, if other things are broken as a result then they get banned down the line as well.
I could follow you in principle, but there's theory and reality.
The council will not ban half of SV OU until the meta becomes playable (it will be endless). It's not realistic. Imo, players have to integrate that standard OU power level has increased from previous gens (due to power creep) and that it will become worse in next generations. I mean look at Ubers.
That is, I can understand a few more suspects (Kyurem, Darkrai, and unfortunately probably my dear Waterpon), but I think we should reevaluate the definition of brokenness in the context of 9g.
Hi im just dropping by to give my opinions and what i voted, disagree if you may im not here to engage in arguments, wont be checking for responses just dropping my opinions and possible contributions where necessary:
Enjoyment: 8/10
Competitiveness: 8/10
I will get into what got my enjoyment and my stance on how competitive the tier is down from a 10 to an 8.
1: mid (good only in certain matchups)
2: balanced
3: raises concern
4: unhealthy
5: broken
Here is what i voted:
Darkrai: i voted a 2, i really don't see whats problematic about this pokemon, outside of the fact its coverage have hax factors, but lets get into my reasoning, its speed is nullified by the many booster mons, and deoxys speed in the tier, pokemon that outspeed it and hit it hard, threaten it often, but lets look at why people think its out of hand, checking it defensively with nasty plot and all its coverage, theres tons of defensive counterplay ive seen, like zama which can act as a defensive mon, ting lu with rest, unaware clod, tera fairy garg which salts and protects even on plot darkrai, spdef corv if its not wisp, blissey, av spdef play rough alomomola, spdef dondozo, and i can list many more, ive been playing ALOT of balance often lately, will link replays later in this post and i dont even see darkrai as a threat when building, far less broken, the only pokemon that doesnt get chipped or punished by the hazard meta or defensive residual that can hit gliscor supereffectively, its really a kind of mid mon, its good in some matchups but thats about it.
Waterpon: i voted a 2, its kind of slow in this meta, 110 is not fast anymore, it trades at best vs offense, and needs to outplay to beat balance or fat, it has 2 very crucial restrictions that balanced it for me, its locked into 1 tera, which means it loses unpredictability, and its locked into an attack boosting item, which means it cant run boots, so it gets fucked by hazards in a gholdengo meta, and this has defensive counterplay too, tera dragon twave zapdos, brave bird corv, which btw if pon doesnt tera, it doesnt need to tera itself itll just kill with physdef bravebird, brave bird skarm, tera dragon wisp moltres, fairy garg with salt cure protect, gliscor with any tera and toxic tect, red card tera flying acrobatics alomomola, twave physdef dengo, wisp pult, and lets look at offensive counterplay, a meta full of dragons, kyurem, raging, moon, dnite, pult, gouging, all threaten it, some cant come in on prough but pon also cant come in, yes a common argument is these mons check it but they cant switch in, alright lets give a comparison, ursaluna has 0 switchins, but do anybody complain?, Same with hoopa unbound, same with booster hands, hell same with iron leaves in terrain, everything with strong offense has no switchins with the right set and tera in the tier.
Kyurem: i voted a 2, literally the only thing broken about this mon is it can freeze, the no switchins thing gets nullified by the fact that if it runs specs its weak to hazards, and boots mixed doesnt really hit hard, dice mixed is weak to hazards, can be chipped easily by both offense and fat, pro staller supagmoney even voted dnb on this, because he knows its not really problematic, this mon is really mid, only good vs balance, not even stall, people just see specs being unstoppable on paper, anything can look unstoppable on paper, but in practice it doesnt suffice, and ive played this tier alot to know that there are top dogs, but kyurem is not a top dog in this meta, in fact, later in this post i have a replay of garg soloing a kyurem team paired with glowking lol. By the way, glowking saw 90% usage on most teams even without kyurem, its good vs most of the meta, glowking usage will NOT lower with this thing gone thats for sure, it NEVER lowered in dlc1, it was everywhere.
Raging Bolt: I voted a 1 for this, youve got to be joking, this is on the survey over gliscor(ikr). Every team has a ground, ting lu and clod exist, garg chips it, hazards chip it, loads of encore mons, balance doesnt even struggle because again glowking everywhere, and if its not glowking, its got something like ting lu or a lando + tusk, etc, if anything, it brings healthy aspects to the tier, i hate being reverse 6-0ed by kingambit, this can be on offense to have security vs that, it revenges dd tera flying moon, it also restricts zapdos and threatens prim, which i like, zapdos and static is still kind of uncompetitive to me, its part of what killed sw/sh and why the sw/sh ladder is lower than the sun moon ladder.
Zamazenta: i voted a 3 here, this pokemon is really powerful, its the best mon in the tier right now by a landslide, it can sweep teams on preview, only needs a couple conditions met to sweep a team, i have replays of this being restricting to offense and even balance to some extent. This is also another reason why i dont get the darkrai hype, the best pokemon in the tier forces it out and threatens to sweep every darkrai team, it restricts offense alot more than waterpon/kyurem restricts fatter teams(balance and stall) , but because it doesnt restrict fat/balance, it doesnt get attention or action, its a disgusting double standard which is such a lame narrative, i guess people will cater to their styles, balance players wont find this restrictive but offense players will. Just focus and act on what restricts balance or fat, nobody cares about what restricts offense right?
Kingambit: i also voted a 3 on this, sweeps teams quite easily, brings insane defensive value to the tier which is why we need it, reverse 6-0s entire teams, but is restricted by dondozo, lots of encore, wisp users, zama, and raging bolt, and the new wisp darkrai sets going around lately, so i guess its not that bad, but it restricts offense to an extent, and maybe balance with the right tera, notice i said WITH the right tera, u gotta be the right tera + get the mu, lol, but yea its still really powerful so it gets a 3 from me.
This is what was on the survey, now let me add extra votes on what i think should be on the survey:
Gliscor: i wouldve voted a 4 on this, its not better than zama, who only restricts offense, but its way more restricting than zamazenta because it restricts every style, every single tournament player and competitive ladder player 1800+ is sick of this pokemon, giving it spikes and tspikes, and the ability to tera on top of that, such a disgusting pokemon, the sd sets restrict balance/fat, the hazard sets restrict offense/BO, ive been building since the gen started, actually, ive been building since gen 5 was the main gen, ive never felt a greater restriction in the teambuilder since maybe baton pass with the boosts were allowed, warps the entire meta around having ice moves, and chipping it in some way, or just get 6-0ed, especially with support, and tera, my usual nickname for gliscor is Scorpiox, but im actually considering changing it to Warpor, ruins entire metas for no reason, why would they give it spikes and tspikes? Just an unfair pokemon, it doesnt deserve a 5 vote its no bloodmoon or Baxcalibur but man, it needs to be getting attention.
Garganacl: i would have voted a 5 on this, if im being honest, "its just a matter of putting a cloak on something" yeah sure, a useless item good for nothing else and the only good users are gholdengo and cress, there is no pokemon that restricts offense more than this, gliscor is the bigger restriction, but invalidating an entire playstyle for the most part is outrageous, i have replays of this pokemon ill be putting in this post, but again, nobody cares about what restricts offense right? only what restricts fat/balance.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144300434?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2143512402?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144159209?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144141443?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144302381?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2143469243?p2
If you take a look at these, you would see a very nice innovative offense team by leng loi , prolly the coolest team ive seen in awhile, and it just gets flat out invalidated by lame ass garganacl and salt cure, the guy just gave up, this is what i really hate about this pokemon, its an offense creativity killer, that just shows up at will and ruins the entire playstyle, peoplemay think offense is always on top but when garg comes along, balance shifts to the top position in this metagame, same with gliscor, but again, they only care about what restricts fat/balance right, not what restricts offense, got it, this is why im not here to engage arguments, the double standard is too strong.
Glowking: 3 for me, its just too fucking good, fits on every team comp even HO, always does something, gets free regen and is a check to most special mons including 2 on the survey in kyurem and raging, and av sets with tera can neutralise darkrai, just a great mon to have overall, i dont think its broken at all, love this thing, but if it gets any less than a 3 id be underrating its greatness across all tiers its been in, was super nice in gen8 too.
Alomomola: I would have voted a 3 on this, i wont vote a 4 or 5 cuz thatll just be my bias, im here to give fair and unbiased opinions, as far as alomomola goes, its as restricting to offense as zama is, i love how everything stopping this mon from being absolutely unstoppable, is on the survey, raging , kyurem, waterpon, the 3 answers that stop it from being insane, and ive received word from many balance players and stallers that alomomola is restricting to their playstyle as well, its incredible bulk, regenerator, ability to wish pass 100% hp to any offense mon, and has scald that can burn, chilling water to check gouging fire etc, not to mention flip turn, which is why its able to wish pass so easily, it feels so easy to use when playing balance and fat, its part of what makes fat good this gen so i guess it could stay but it restricts offense alot more than the offensive mons restrict its style, so stop bashing the offense, again i hate the double standard, if anything, its making offense STRONGER rn, able to wish pass 100% hp to any offense mon is obsurd, imagine all game specs raging bolt dominated, they are about to kill it finally, but the opponent makes 1 crucial mistake and allows alomomola to wish and they dont have waterpon, kyurem cant kill it w freeze dry, it flip turns, now the raging bolt is back at 100% hp, very competitive stuff, alo + any breaker so restricting to offense, but because its not restricting to fat or balance, dont touch it right? Got it.
Honorable mentions:
Ting lu: would have voted a 2, has uber defensive stats(if people thought chi yu and pao had uber offensive stats, then this mon has uber defensive stats because its stats are literally the defensive equivalent), is alright in ou but it takes 30% from an ebelt darkrai come on, imagine an offense mon with the same attacking stat and attack boosting ability as ting lu's spdef stat + spdef boosting ability, oh wait we quickbanned both cuz they restrict balance/fat not offense, i agree chi yu and chien pao are broken as hell, i voted dnb on pao out of pure hatred for garg, i know pao is broken. But come on Ting lu restricts offense to an insane degree, but u dont see us offense players complain about it, +1 raging bolt cant even 2hko it, always gets hazards off etc.
Iron Valiant: i wouldve voted a 2 here, most arguments for mons on the survey have been "we cannot prepare for all sets", well this has been the motto of iron valiant since it was released, theres always an iron valiant set for every counter, no matter what you use, the closest thing to a counter got banned, volcarona, even that got fucked by sd tera dark, encore, and the very rare tera rock terablast.
Dondozo: honestly this gets a 2, almost gave it a 1 but its really good still, its stats + ability are the only reason i mentioned it, it gets my stamp of approval because it does keep physical attackers at bay, which is a healthy presence to some extent, and it still reverse sweeps teams with curse, and does alot vs offense.
Iron Moth: i wouldve voted a 2 here, almost got a 3, if ting lu wasnt around this mon would be off the hinges, which is why i voted ting lu so low, its a slot machine essentially, one fiery dance boost and a tera away from losing half ur team, and its very fast with booster speed as well, not to mention +spatk modest, on webs kills everything including ting lu with the right tera + 1 fiery dance boost, and other uncommon niche sets, sure u can prep for booster speed set, phase it w red card glim, but what if suddenly it decides to run +spatk psychic or specs, something crazy, you know, it has a set for everything.
Dragapult: this gets a 3 from me, honestly, the fastest mon in the tier, + access to 2 very good status moves, u turn, hex, etc, it has a large set variety, that again, u cannot prepare for all, if u prep for boots hex, band or specs will beat u, and vice versa, and if u manage to stop all 3, dd + terablast still may beat you, that wisp set is unstoppable if its paired with good support like chilly glowking and wish alomomola, its restricting to balance, and offense to an extent, also wisp pult, ive gotten large complaints from stallers including Highv0ltag3 that wisp pult is broken, so i know offense is not the only style it restricts.
And thats all for the honorable mentions, just for the record, i believe in fairness while tiering, if you wanna go after the things that restrict fat/balance, go after the things that restrict offense too, don't cater to the style that you play, cater for all styles, be fair and unbiased, i dont appreciate how some people come to my discord, insult me to my face rather than arguing my points and then try to diss vert and get me to disagree with him like hes some kind of supervillain for just stating his opinions in ONE post, just uncalled for and out of character to be honest, i blocked every single one of those people. And just for the record i would happily vote ban on darkrai, waterpon and kyurem if alomomola, glowking, and gliscor get the boot too, but again, we only care about balance or fat thriving, and then they would say "thats not how tiering works" well its how it SHOULD work, because catering to every style and not just 1 style is being fair and unbiased while tiering and that should be a common practice. Please change this disgusting narrative to a fair one and cater to every playstyle, not just 1.
And to add onto this, ill always be fully pro tera and pro unrestricted, as long as its here, the variance will be very high, every matchup can be flipped so theres no impossible matchups, and there will always be sets on almost every mon that can beat anything, trust me, we ban the current sweepers, more will just step up to the forefront till we "handle" those, which if they keep getting banned the meta will only be stall and balance, then they would say too many bans and call for a tera ban, which makes more sense for you to do if you have a problem with this meta. I may be fully pro unrestricted tera and may never ever be convinced to switch this stance, but even i would advise you tackle roots and not random elements of it.
Thats all i wanted to say, if you disagree with me thats okay, everybody is entitled to an opinion, i am just stating mine, no bad intentions here, all positive, im just trying to contribute to the tier and the community with some good points and arguments, thats about it, pce.
Enjoyment: 8/10
Competitiveness: 8/10
I will get into what got my enjoyment and my stance on how competitive the tier is down from a 10 to an 8.
1: mid (good only in certain matchups)
2: balanced
3: raises concern
4: unhealthy
5: broken
Here is what i voted:
Darkrai: i voted a 2, i really don't see whats problematic about this pokemon, outside of the fact its coverage have hax factors, but lets get into my reasoning, its speed is nullified by the many booster mons, and deoxys speed in the tier, pokemon that outspeed it and hit it hard, threaten it often, but lets look at why people think its out of hand, checking it defensively with nasty plot and all its coverage, theres tons of defensive counterplay ive seen, like zama which can act as a defensive mon, ting lu with rest, unaware clod, tera fairy garg which salts and protects even on plot darkrai, spdef corv if its not wisp, blissey, av spdef play rough alomomola, spdef dondozo, and i can list many more, ive been playing ALOT of balance often lately, will link replays later in this post and i dont even see darkrai as a threat when building, far less broken, the only pokemon that doesnt get chipped or punished by the hazard meta or defensive residual that can hit gliscor supereffectively, its really a kind of mid mon, its good in some matchups but thats about it.
Waterpon: i voted a 2, its kind of slow in this meta, 110 is not fast anymore, it trades at best vs offense, and needs to outplay to beat balance or fat, it has 2 very crucial restrictions that balanced it for me, its locked into 1 tera, which means it loses unpredictability, and its locked into an attack boosting item, which means it cant run boots, so it gets fucked by hazards in a gholdengo meta, and this has defensive counterplay too, tera dragon twave zapdos, brave bird corv, which btw if pon doesnt tera, it doesnt need to tera itself itll just kill with physdef bravebird, brave bird skarm, tera dragon wisp moltres, fairy garg with salt cure protect, gliscor with any tera and toxic tect, red card tera flying acrobatics alomomola, twave physdef dengo, wisp pult, and lets look at offensive counterplay, a meta full of dragons, kyurem, raging, moon, dnite, pult, gouging, all threaten it, some cant come in on prough but pon also cant come in, yes a common argument is these mons check it but they cant switch in, alright lets give a comparison, ursaluna has 0 switchins, but do anybody complain?, Same with hoopa unbound, same with booster hands, hell same with iron leaves in terrain, everything with strong offense has no switchins with the right set and tera in the tier.
Kyurem: i voted a 2, literally the only thing broken about this mon is it can freeze, the no switchins thing gets nullified by the fact that if it runs specs its weak to hazards, and boots mixed doesnt really hit hard, dice mixed is weak to hazards, can be chipped easily by both offense and fat, pro staller supagmoney even voted dnb on this, because he knows its not really problematic, this mon is really mid, only good vs balance, not even stall, people just see specs being unstoppable on paper, anything can look unstoppable on paper, but in practice it doesnt suffice, and ive played this tier alot to know that there are top dogs, but kyurem is not a top dog in this meta, in fact, later in this post i have a replay of garg soloing a kyurem team paired with glowking lol. By the way, glowking saw 90% usage on most teams even without kyurem, its good vs most of the meta, glowking usage will NOT lower with this thing gone thats for sure, it NEVER lowered in dlc1, it was everywhere.
Raging Bolt: I voted a 1 for this, youve got to be joking, this is on the survey over gliscor(ikr). Every team has a ground, ting lu and clod exist, garg chips it, hazards chip it, loads of encore mons, balance doesnt even struggle because again glowking everywhere, and if its not glowking, its got something like ting lu or a lando + tusk, etc, if anything, it brings healthy aspects to the tier, i hate being reverse 6-0ed by kingambit, this can be on offense to have security vs that, it revenges dd tera flying moon, it also restricts zapdos and threatens prim, which i like, zapdos and static is still kind of uncompetitive to me, its part of what killed sw/sh and why the sw/sh ladder is lower than the sun moon ladder.
Zamazenta: i voted a 3 here, this pokemon is really powerful, its the best mon in the tier right now by a landslide, it can sweep teams on preview, only needs a couple conditions met to sweep a team, i have replays of this being restricting to offense and even balance to some extent. This is also another reason why i dont get the darkrai hype, the best pokemon in the tier forces it out and threatens to sweep every darkrai team, it restricts offense alot more than waterpon/kyurem restricts fatter teams(balance and stall) , but because it doesnt restrict fat/balance, it doesnt get attention or action, its a disgusting double standard which is such a lame narrative, i guess people will cater to their styles, balance players wont find this restrictive but offense players will. Just focus and act on what restricts balance or fat, nobody cares about what restricts offense right?
Kingambit: i also voted a 3 on this, sweeps teams quite easily, brings insane defensive value to the tier which is why we need it, reverse 6-0s entire teams, but is restricted by dondozo, lots of encore, wisp users, zama, and raging bolt, and the new wisp darkrai sets going around lately, so i guess its not that bad, but it restricts offense to an extent, and maybe balance with the right tera, notice i said WITH the right tera, u gotta be the right tera + get the mu, lol, but yea its still really powerful so it gets a 3 from me.
This is what was on the survey, now let me add extra votes on what i think should be on the survey:
Gliscor: i wouldve voted a 4 on this, its not better than zama, who only restricts offense, but its way more restricting than zamazenta because it restricts every style, every single tournament player and competitive ladder player 1800+ is sick of this pokemon, giving it spikes and tspikes, and the ability to tera on top of that, such a disgusting pokemon, the sd sets restrict balance/fat, the hazard sets restrict offense/BO, ive been building since the gen started, actually, ive been building since gen 5 was the main gen, ive never felt a greater restriction in the teambuilder since maybe baton pass with the boosts were allowed, warps the entire meta around having ice moves, and chipping it in some way, or just get 6-0ed, especially with support, and tera, my usual nickname for gliscor is Scorpiox, but im actually considering changing it to Warpor, ruins entire metas for no reason, why would they give it spikes and tspikes? Just an unfair pokemon, it doesnt deserve a 5 vote its no bloodmoon or Baxcalibur but man, it needs to be getting attention.
Garganacl: i would have voted a 5 on this, if im being honest, "its just a matter of putting a cloak on something" yeah sure, a useless item good for nothing else and the only good users are gholdengo and cress, there is no pokemon that restricts offense more than this, gliscor is the bigger restriction, but invalidating an entire playstyle for the most part is outrageous, i have replays of this pokemon ill be putting in this post, but again, nobody cares about what restricts offense right? only what restricts fat/balance.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144300434?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2143512402?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144159209?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144141443?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2144302381?p2
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-2143469243?p2
If you take a look at these, you would see a very nice innovative offense team by leng loi , prolly the coolest team ive seen in awhile, and it just gets flat out invalidated by lame ass garganacl and salt cure, the guy just gave up, this is what i really hate about this pokemon, its an offense creativity killer, that just shows up at will and ruins the entire playstyle, peoplemay think offense is always on top but when garg comes along, balance shifts to the top position in this metagame, same with gliscor, but again, they only care about what restricts fat/balance right, not what restricts offense, got it, this is why im not here to engage arguments, the double standard is too strong.
Glowking: 3 for me, its just too fucking good, fits on every team comp even HO, always does something, gets free regen and is a check to most special mons including 2 on the survey in kyurem and raging, and av sets with tera can neutralise darkrai, just a great mon to have overall, i dont think its broken at all, love this thing, but if it gets any less than a 3 id be underrating its greatness across all tiers its been in, was super nice in gen8 too.
Alomomola: I would have voted a 3 on this, i wont vote a 4 or 5 cuz thatll just be my bias, im here to give fair and unbiased opinions, as far as alomomola goes, its as restricting to offense as zama is, i love how everything stopping this mon from being absolutely unstoppable, is on the survey, raging , kyurem, waterpon, the 3 answers that stop it from being insane, and ive received word from many balance players and stallers that alomomola is restricting to their playstyle as well, its incredible bulk, regenerator, ability to wish pass 100% hp to any offense mon, and has scald that can burn, chilling water to check gouging fire etc, not to mention flip turn, which is why its able to wish pass so easily, it feels so easy to use when playing balance and fat, its part of what makes fat good this gen so i guess it could stay but it restricts offense alot more than the offensive mons restrict its style, so stop bashing the offense, again i hate the double standard, if anything, its making offense STRONGER rn, able to wish pass 100% hp to any offense mon is obsurd, imagine all game specs raging bolt dominated, they are about to kill it finally, but the opponent makes 1 crucial mistake and allows alomomola to wish and they dont have waterpon, kyurem cant kill it w freeze dry, it flip turns, now the raging bolt is back at 100% hp, very competitive stuff, alo + any breaker so restricting to offense, but because its not restricting to fat or balance, dont touch it right? Got it.
Honorable mentions:
Ting lu: would have voted a 2, has uber defensive stats(if people thought chi yu and pao had uber offensive stats, then this mon has uber defensive stats because its stats are literally the defensive equivalent), is alright in ou but it takes 30% from an ebelt darkrai come on, imagine an offense mon with the same attacking stat and attack boosting ability as ting lu's spdef stat + spdef boosting ability, oh wait we quickbanned both cuz they restrict balance/fat not offense, i agree chi yu and chien pao are broken as hell, i voted dnb on pao out of pure hatred for garg, i know pao is broken. But come on Ting lu restricts offense to an insane degree, but u dont see us offense players complain about it, +1 raging bolt cant even 2hko it, always gets hazards off etc.
Iron Valiant: i wouldve voted a 2 here, most arguments for mons on the survey have been "we cannot prepare for all sets", well this has been the motto of iron valiant since it was released, theres always an iron valiant set for every counter, no matter what you use, the closest thing to a counter got banned, volcarona, even that got fucked by sd tera dark, encore, and the very rare tera rock terablast.
Dondozo: honestly this gets a 2, almost gave it a 1 but its really good still, its stats + ability are the only reason i mentioned it, it gets my stamp of approval because it does keep physical attackers at bay, which is a healthy presence to some extent, and it still reverse sweeps teams with curse, and does alot vs offense.
Iron Moth: i wouldve voted a 2 here, almost got a 3, if ting lu wasnt around this mon would be off the hinges, which is why i voted ting lu so low, its a slot machine essentially, one fiery dance boost and a tera away from losing half ur team, and its very fast with booster speed as well, not to mention +spatk modest, on webs kills everything including ting lu with the right tera + 1 fiery dance boost, and other uncommon niche sets, sure u can prep for booster speed set, phase it w red card glim, but what if suddenly it decides to run +spatk psychic or specs, something crazy, you know, it has a set for everything.
Dragapult: this gets a 3 from me, honestly, the fastest mon in the tier, + access to 2 very good status moves, u turn, hex, etc, it has a large set variety, that again, u cannot prepare for all, if u prep for boots hex, band or specs will beat u, and vice versa, and if u manage to stop all 3, dd + terablast still may beat you, that wisp set is unstoppable if its paired with good support like chilly glowking and wish alomomola, its restricting to balance, and offense to an extent, also wisp pult, ive gotten large complaints from stallers including Highv0ltag3 that wisp pult is broken, so i know offense is not the only style it restricts.
And thats all for the honorable mentions, just for the record, i believe in fairness while tiering, if you wanna go after the things that restrict fat/balance, go after the things that restrict offense too, don't cater to the style that you play, cater for all styles, be fair and unbiased, i dont appreciate how some people come to my discord, insult me to my face rather than arguing my points and then try to diss vert and get me to disagree with him like hes some kind of supervillain for just stating his opinions in ONE post, just uncalled for and out of character to be honest, i blocked every single one of those people. And just for the record i would happily vote ban on darkrai, waterpon and kyurem if alomomola, glowking, and gliscor get the boot too, but again, we only care about balance or fat thriving, and then they would say "thats not how tiering works" well its how it SHOULD work, because catering to every style and not just 1 style is being fair and unbiased while tiering and that should be a common practice. Please change this disgusting narrative to a fair one and cater to every playstyle, not just 1.
And to add onto this, ill always be fully pro tera and pro unrestricted, as long as its here, the variance will be very high, every matchup can be flipped so theres no impossible matchups, and there will always be sets on almost every mon that can beat anything, trust me, we ban the current sweepers, more will just step up to the forefront till we "handle" those, which if they keep getting banned the meta will only be stall and balance, then they would say too many bans and call for a tera ban, which makes more sense for you to do if you have a problem with this meta. I may be fully pro unrestricted tera and may never ever be convinced to switch this stance, but even i would advise you tackle roots and not random elements of it.
Thats all i wanted to say, if you disagree with me thats okay, everybody is entitled to an opinion, i am just stating mine, no bad intentions here, all positive, im just trying to contribute to the tier and the community with some good points and arguments, thats about it, pce.
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I agree with lesbiangunshow, this message is way hyperbolic. The OU council is doing its best with the resources at hand. Remember, they are spending their time and energy to work for free to make the tier a better place. There are so many opposing viewpoints in the playerbase and the council has to negotiate that. Scroll up and you will see some influential players like Vert and CTC arguing against any bans at all. That's basically the exact opposite of what you're asking for, coming from players who frankly have a lot more clout than you. Be appreciative that in light of this, the council does surveys to incorporate everyone's opinion.
For what it's worth coming from a random, I genuinely enjoyed SV OU though I have taken a bit of a break recently. I think the meta is just one or two bans away from being great. It's worth booting Darkrai and one of Kyurem/Waterpon (I'd prefer Kyurem gone over Watermelon, see Baloor's well-reasoned post).
banning everything is soooo boring though. it’s FUN how we have threats. it’s FUN to manage resources carefully. it’s FUN to play around broken using broken. not that we need to go and unban Lugia though. I think the meta is like, fine right now.
it’s fun how we have creative solutions to some “broken” mons. like Sinistcha to check Pon and Zama (I even 1v1ed a Roaring Moon with it once, without using tera!), DD Gouging Fire, etc. If we really look at what’s available, we can find solutions. innovate guys
Ok, but which Pokemon would go hog wild with Zama gone? Are there no replacements to help keep these mons in check? If the Tier is only playable because of a single Pokemon is that not a sign that there is a fundamental problem with the Tier? It's so easy to make these dog shit comments without actually saying anything because people eat up the fearmongering. Actually explain your thoughts if you're going to make these statements.
Broken checks broken. Shame that's what the tier has turned into now
Respect to Storm Zone, Vert, and CTC, who are all better players than I’ll ever be, but it’s an interesting trend that they are rating the breakers (Kyurem, Darkrai, Wogerpon) that most posters are saying are broken as 1/5 or 2/5 and then have revenge killers and defensive mons that disrupt offense rated as more problematic than most midlevel players rate them.
I’m guessing this is because they generally run more offensive teams (Vert and SZ especially) that can take advantage of the breakers’ weaknesses like lower speed tiers, lack of priority, and risk of hazard chip. They also are far better than the average player so the typical skill/prediction/sequencing issues that Darkrai, Kyurem, and Waterpon force aren’t as big of a hassle to them.
On the other hand, Gliscor, Garg, Zama, Gambit, and Raging Bolt poke holes in offensive team structures and can close the skill gap between them and opponents with powerful priority or just completely walling a would-be wincon.
I’m guessing this is because they generally run more offensive teams (Vert and SZ especially) that can take advantage of the breakers’ weaknesses like lower speed tiers, lack of priority, and risk of hazard chip. They also are far better than the average player so the typical skill/prediction/sequencing issues that Darkrai, Kyurem, and Waterpon force aren’t as big of a hassle to them.
On the other hand, Gliscor, Garg, Zama, Gambit, and Raging Bolt poke holes in offensive team structures and can close the skill gap between them and opponents with powerful priority or just completely walling a would-be wincon.
So what do you conclude? For me, that's proof that there is no definitive consensus on what's really broken and there will never be until the end of the gen, unfortunately.
senorlopez
Formerly Ricardo [old]
A key takeaway that I feel should be learned from this gen is how tiering is structured around DLC.
Too often I feel that DLC disrupts the stability of tiering, making previous efforts by the council and community obsolete. The constant cycle of banning and unbanning the same Pokémon feels inefficient, repetitive and draining, leading to rehashed arguments throughout the entire generation which stifles actual progress.
Now we are in a situation of "broken checking broken" frustrating players who desire stability; drop zama and gambit, pon, moon, darkrai all become stronger, now drop pon and mola and fat become stronger etc. It's a chain reaction of 1 or 2 mons covering over the cracks of others. Unbanning several uber mons was arguably a mistake (not for me to decide) because how many problems zama, gliscor, darkrai, moon has brought to the tier. Darkrai was also the tipping point for sleep getting banned, making amoongus trash which lets pon run around much more easily causing even more problems. Why are we so eager to bring back mons that we know have a history of being overpowered?
My suggestion (just quick thoughts) of how I would approach future DLC's would be something like this:
Too often I feel that DLC disrupts the stability of tiering, making previous efforts by the council and community obsolete. The constant cycle of banning and unbanning the same Pokémon feels inefficient, repetitive and draining, leading to rehashed arguments throughout the entire generation which stifles actual progress.
Now we are in a situation of "broken checking broken" frustrating players who desire stability; drop zama and gambit, pon, moon, darkrai all become stronger, now drop pon and mola and fat become stronger etc. It's a chain reaction of 1 or 2 mons covering over the cracks of others. Unbanning several uber mons was arguably a mistake (not for me to decide) because how many problems zama, gliscor, darkrai, moon has brought to the tier. Darkrai was also the tipping point for sleep getting banned, making amoongus trash which lets pon run around much more easily causing even more problems. Why are we so eager to bring back mons that we know have a history of being overpowered?
My suggestion (just quick thoughts) of how I would approach future DLC's would be something like this:
- Quick ban obviously overpowered mons from the new DLC.
- Gauge community sentiment on current pool of mons.
- Suspect test current pool of mons.
- Repeat until no more suspects needed.
- Gauge community sentiment on previously banned mons.
- Reintroduce one mon at a time at council's discretion.
- Suspect if new mon is fine.
Official post either later tonight or tomorrow, but enjoyment and competitiveness scores are noticeably up on this survey after the Volcarona ban (speaking about qualified demographic, haven’t yet looked at general).
Too bad a FUN meta game is just an opinion. I prefer bulkier builds(not stall I don't have time for that), and having 'mons with very little defensive counter play is straining on my personal enjoyment. I'm on team anti-breaker.
I also believe the tier after Volc's ban is the best it's been in a while. I think if we can get rid of Darkrai and Kyurem that the tier will probably be in a good spot with regards to balance.
And I'm serious about that. I know some people aren't very accepting of power creep, but I maintain things such as Zamazenta, Raging Bolt, and Gliscor are not issues.
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Yeah I think unless it’s things like Flutter Mane or Terapagos, the pokemon you find broken are very heavily dictated by your skill level, play style, and meta knowledge. The players I mentioned are also likely to have their finger on the pulse of the meta and know how to build the proper teams to counter major threats. I think the issue is becoming that a large portion of the “decent” playerbase (say 1500-1800) disagrees with the voting/high level player base (players who regularly get reqs or are on high ladder).
I like Tera Normal Glowking since it double resists Fighting. As a special wall, it also minds the new Fighting weakness less. Fairy would also work, but Normal is better Ghost types like for Pult and Ghold.
I also like Tera Normal on Comfey for a similar reason. The only new weakness is a former resist.
Same for Hatt.
This works pretty well on nearly all Fairy types that aren't part Rock or Steel.
Another Tera Normal mon I really like is Gliscor since it resists Fighting and buffs Facade, though I'm not sure how unconventional that one is..
Tera Dark on Cyclizar for Knock Off is low key heat.
I don't run Ursaluna much, but when I do, I go Tera Poison. This resists Grass in addition to Fighting. You can power up Gunk Shot. Also, a Guts set can absorb T-spikes in a pinch.
Roaring Moon has a ton of Tera options that almost nobody uses outside of the regular Flying or Dark, even though they are good. Examples include Tera Steel, Ghost, Ground and Fire. But my favorite is Fairy, which IMO should be just as common as Flying since it is so good. Fairy and Dark STAB is a combo that doesn't have much that switches into it.
Not sure it counts as substandard, but Tera Fighting Body Press Raging Bolt is my favorite version of it.
I plan to experiment with Tera Ice Iron Thorns at some point, but it will likely be bad for obvious reasons.
To be fair, the council was in a lose/lose position either way because of the insane power creep. And they have taken a lot of community feedback into most decisions. More than past gens. Regardless of what they decided to do with Tera or various mons, there was always going to be some backlash. Furthermore, there is no good consensus in the community for what should be done much of the time this gen.
It's not necesarrily unreasonable to suggest that maybe we could change some things about the processes or criteria. However, the process is fairly well streamlined already. It's also possible changes would potentially involve less community feedback and/or more stringent reqs requirements than we have been given this gen.
Eh. Lando-T and other Ground types are on everyone's teams anyways. Without Gliscor, you would just see more Lando-T and so on. There are also a lot of really good Dragon types in the tier. Some good Grass types besides Wellspring. I don't think needing to pack an Ice move is that big a deal. It just makes sense for the meta. Of couse, Gliscor can tera. That's generally an opportunity cost unless it is the SD set against a slower team.
I also don't think it having both T-spikes and Spikes is that problematic since that is half its moves and it generally want to run Protect. If you are running that kind of set, it's a lot less threatening than SD.
Covert Cloak is actually pretty good. In addition to Salt Cure, you also laugh off Nuzzle from Hatt, Mortal Spin from Glimm, and Mystical Fire/Snarl type special attack drops. You avoid hax from Darkrai and Kyurem. It's not a non-item at all. I think people should use it more even without Garg.
Primm is a really good user of it.
Slight nitpick, but Pult isn't the fastest mon in the tier. D-speed is if we are going by unboosted mons. You could use a similar reasoning for D-speed and BE mons on Pult that you used for Darkrai. IMO, Pult is easier to switch into of the two.
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If the survey scores are up for qualified and down for casual players though, what do we do exactly? What measures would have to happen exactly if people are still mixed on the meta after the bans?
Also keep sleep banned if we decide to get Darkrai out
Also keep sleep banned if we decide to get Darkrai out
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I, too, think it would be very silly to reinstate a half measure just because Darkrai would theoretically get re-booted to Ubers.
Insert something about lower tiers whatever
Insert something about lower tiers whatever
That or the other option of banning tera which would piss just as many people off. There is no good answer that won't make parts of the community upset and I think that's the issue with SV right now. Anything drastic we do would keep the playerbase divided for longer as much as some of us would want tera out, doing so would have massive ramifications and could keep the playerbase divided longer. Same goes for banning half the meta
Also as much as I really don't like this gen's Natdex format, the super swift tiering action they have is really good and I think we should do something like that because action feels too slow on the end of SV OU when comparing how tiering action is approached to natdex.
This meta is definitely reminding me of gen 5 the more time passes with people being very split on enjoyment with it, and I do hope the meta becomes something enjoyable for most someday.
Also both Waterpon and Kyurem need to go, but getting one out is a really good start
Still unsure if Darkrai needs to get out first but if it goes whatever
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Sleep will stay banned regardless of Darkrai being acted on or not. If we want to look at it again, we can in some months when things calm down or at the start of next generation.
Thank you. Sleep is always kinda cheap and it not being here is probably a good thing
not playing enough to vote. enjoyment way down- bored. nothing feels very bad. zama beats me most though.
Finch I am behind you on this, but can Yawn be reassessed? I don't think the dynamics and interactions it creates are uncompetitive and it is a great pseudo-phazing tool, thinking of Dirge and Torkoal but I would believe this even if Darkrai had access to Yawn
If someone wants to make a policy thread on it, I won’t throw it out. To put it bluntly though: I have more pressing things on my plate than Yawn. Reassessing something like the little details of a larger clause tends to be saved for lulls in tiering or between generations.