I can't believe I'm even saying this but damn I hate Gen 9 Ou right now more than Gen 7-8. It's just the same boring teams with the same boring Pokemons over and over again, no varieties, no flavor, nothing. Nothing excites me anymore, I don't even care who gets ban anymore because nothing is going to change . Gambit is still going to 6-0 a team and people still think this mon is okay for Ou or Zam that Invalided all Fighting Pokemon. Like why will I use Conk or Mienshao who are both good Fighting Pokemon when I can use cheap broken Legendary Pokemon like Zam . All the council who thinks Zam is still okay in Ou is bullshitting. At least National Dex Ou has the balls to ban Zama which is good. You see National Dex Ou being more played than Ou because it funs and has varieties which I think a lot of people here including the council forgets that what's Ou is originally supposed to be. Having fun with Ou Pokemon with different variations and trying to out smart each other not relying on broken mons like Darkrai, Gambit, and Zama to make progress. This is my opinion so until I see Ou change for the better which won't happen, this will be my last time commenting here so don't bother to say anything to me because I'm not going to see it lol.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Kyurem banned]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
To be clear I never said nor do I think Ghold is banworthy or broken (at the moment), but it is an insanely centralizing mon and the only reason it isn't more obvious right now is because there are so many broken breakers that fry a lot of Ghold structures. It's good to take a look at mons like these and assess their impact and whether it is healthy for the meta. As for the latter question, were I conscious while those oldgens were current, yes, I would at the least have liked a similar look into their roles and whether or not it is healthy. Oldgen tiering is a whole different beast, though, and it's hard to justify drastically shaking up a metagame with a small playerbase and low activity.
Took about 9 months off, ty everyone who suggested I should take a break.
Haven't touched the new mons, Bolt seemed cool but idk no desire to cheese with it. Raging is Sun cringe so that's w/e.
Recent Survey:
Fun: 7
Balanced 4
Gave all mons a 1 or 2 except Gambit who got a 3.
Nothing seems broken honestly. Tera is still annoying but all it does is take my fun score of 8 and subtract 1.
Have had no serious issues with Kyu and frankly the rhetoric about how we're "just one or two bans away" from a good meta is cope. It's literally cope. All the mons on the survey have consistent counterplay, we're just playing in a super heavy MU meta and sometimes you won't have the tools because it's impossible to account for all the Tera variations. It's also confirmation bias. If Kyu or w/e gets banned then cool, won't change much either way. The mons we have are fine, Zama isn't broken it just hard stops sloppy HO, Darkrai is just a worse Val, etc. Just accept SV as it is, or ban some more stuff, either way really won't change the fundamental core of SV.
As for state of the meta, seems kinda bad. Showdown feels like it's dying a bit idk. Losing all the replays was really heartbreaking ngl.
This recent World Cup game Freezai uploaded kinda sums up the meta. Lowkey a really trash battle and it's not anyone's fault, but if this is what SV looks like on the highest level I'm not surprised players are saying it's a bad meta.
Gen 9 feels like a soulless game of rock, paper, scissors where you load up your HO or BO and pray you don't auto-lose, and when you lowkey auto-win it doesn't feel much better. Ik terms like auto-lose are hyperbolic but really it's not far off. Freezai's opp kinda loses hard to E-Killer Nite. It is what it is. If they try to prep for it they'll basically auto-lose to something else. It's SV.
All that said, I still think mons will always be fun on some level. In Gen 9 making your own fun might be the best bet.
Instead of abusing Tera on the common mon use lower tier mons that become more viable with Tera. The mechanic becomes a lot more fun that way.
Been having a blast with Yanmega and Blaziken. Also finally got cyber-bullied into streaming, that's been pretty fun lol.
I'm not interested in talking Tera whatsoever, just wanted to say hi and give some quick thoughts.
This Yanmega team is p much done so if anyone has a cool lower tier mon they want to see built around hmu.
Haven't touched the new mons, Bolt seemed cool but idk no desire to cheese with it. Raging is Sun cringe so that's w/e.
Recent Survey:
Fun: 7
Balanced 4
Gave all mons a 1 or 2 except Gambit who got a 3.
Nothing seems broken honestly. Tera is still annoying but all it does is take my fun score of 8 and subtract 1.
Have had no serious issues with Kyu and frankly the rhetoric about how we're "just one or two bans away" from a good meta is cope. It's literally cope. All the mons on the survey have consistent counterplay, we're just playing in a super heavy MU meta and sometimes you won't have the tools because it's impossible to account for all the Tera variations. It's also confirmation bias. If Kyu or w/e gets banned then cool, won't change much either way. The mons we have are fine, Zama isn't broken it just hard stops sloppy HO, Darkrai is just a worse Val, etc. Just accept SV as it is, or ban some more stuff, either way really won't change the fundamental core of SV.
As for state of the meta, seems kinda bad. Showdown feels like it's dying a bit idk. Losing all the replays was really heartbreaking ngl.
This recent World Cup game Freezai uploaded kinda sums up the meta. Lowkey a really trash battle and it's not anyone's fault, but if this is what SV looks like on the highest level I'm not surprised players are saying it's a bad meta.
Gen 9 feels like a soulless game of rock, paper, scissors where you load up your HO or BO and pray you don't auto-lose, and when you lowkey auto-win it doesn't feel much better. Ik terms like auto-lose are hyperbolic but really it's not far off. Freezai's opp kinda loses hard to E-Killer Nite. It is what it is. If they try to prep for it they'll basically auto-lose to something else. It's SV.
All that said, I still think mons will always be fun on some level. In Gen 9 making your own fun might be the best bet.
Instead of abusing Tera on the common mon use lower tier mons that become more viable with Tera. The mechanic becomes a lot more fun that way.
Been having a blast with Yanmega and Blaziken. Also finally got cyber-bullied into streaming, that's been pretty fun lol.
I'm not interested in talking Tera whatsoever, just wanted to say hi and give some quick thoughts.
This Yanmega team is p much done so if anyone has a cool lower tier mon they want to see built around hmu.
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If gen 1-3 were the current gen: Yes, EVERYONE with knowledge in the tier would like to ban it. Because you can't compare old gen tiering to the modern one. That's the short answer.
The longer one is that right now, a centralizing force in those levels is usually not seen as healthy for a tier, and if it is, you would need years to see if it is (that's what happen with older gens, a lot more time to experiment with). Gen 9 is not even two years old, has had a lot of shifts in those two years and is mechanically much different than the old gens. Bringing them to compare to gen 9 is, frankly, not a solid argument.
If a Pokémon had a 100% usage rate it would be banned. Instantly.
Also, comparing Kingambit/ Gholdengo to Tauros, Snorlax or Tyranitar it's also ilogical. The way Snorlax or Ttar shape the metagame is much different as are the number of reliable answers to each mon and a long etcetera.
TLDR: yeah
we also have to acknowledge that old gens need to take a much more laissez-faire approach to banning because of the sheer lack of options. in a modern ecosystem, the hole left by banning a highly centralizing mon tends to be filled in by a number of less centralizing mons that were formerly outclassed, which is a large part of the reason why "it provides utility by doing [some combination of things]" isn't a particularly good anti-ban argument. but in early gens, there are no other options for a lot of roles. there's no "next best thing". some types only have literally one or two mons representing them in the first two gens. there are more mons on this gen's ou vr than there are fully evolved mons in gen 1 at all. banning virtually any relevant thing from an old gen would leave an impossible-to-fill power vacuum and destabilize the meta, so unfortunately old gens have to live with overcentralization because the other choice is unbalanceable garbage. of course, that doesn't mean we, in gen 9, are forcrd to live with either option. we shouldn't be hesitating to boot as many negative presences out of the tier as necessary until building non-matchup-fish teams becomes feasible at the very least
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Enjoyment: 7
Competitiveness: 7
First off, glowking is now on every single one of my teams(I use mainly bal sometimes BO), usually rai as well but it's just really good, this is more of a crutch for balance than anything else and imo is what is keeping balance afloat. At first I was apprehensive cause who wants to use the same mon on every team, but glowking is far more enjoyable to me than Ting, Skarm, alo, (I personally will never use ting or skarm, maybe the blim ting set) which are all kind of braindead fat mons honestly and which I find mostly unfun.
IMO darkrai is clearly the head honcho of the tier rn, has like 8 viable items, and like 8 viable moves, I think psyshock is really underrated but that's just my opinion, I feel like he is a bit better rn than he should be, it feels like we're in the discovery phase before the counter phase, similar to when ppl thought gouging was busted than the meta adapted. (Straight cap tho how is that mon busted with roar zama in the tier but I digress) I don't think I have anything to add compared to some of the better players before me.
Kyurem I think is like a half step below darkrai it has similar variety but requires a lot more building around unlike rai which fits on 99% of teams, also harder to bring kyukyu in, specs I think is a balanced set, and the mixed DD sets require prediction and I personally have never felt Kyurem to be overbearing, altho I will give a shout to dd/spear/ss/fire/elec blast I think it's a really good set if you don't need a mixed kyu on your team.
Wellspring is also really good, but I would be extremely worried about banning this mon because I swear alo/gking will just be fucking busted and altho the meta is offensively oriented rn, I feel that would push it towards fat which is different but I wouldn't consider it better.
These are clearly the 3 best mons in the tier rn (other than zama) and the only one I would vehemently oppose a ban to is wellspring as I feel like the meta might just become a lot less enjoyable.
On the other hand I'd like to bring up a super underrated mon into the current meta, which has shifted towards more spatk spam and offense, almost every team I've seen and use run at least 2 special breakers, and 3 spatk spam is super common on offense.
Scizor got relevant again in gen 8 just to beat up kyu(Imo gen 8 kyu was more busted), but it genuinely has a good mu into a lot of mons that are ultra prevelant rn. First off band bp is ole' reliable strong prio which is nice, it cleads into darkrai really easily and you can just u-turn out for dmg and momentum. I've found it to be a pretty reliable clead since rai is everywhere, but it also leads well into prima garg deo-s glimm and a few other mons. It shits on kyu obviously, if you switch into your dragon on Raging Bolt in a do or die scenario you can double into sciz to bp for the kill on tera fairy(not consistent obviously but swag), it lives a 5 fallen sucker from gambit, altho if they have glasses and rocks you have to pray. Lando and tusk are the switch ins, but lando gets near 3HKO'd by bp, w rocks up it's a lot worse for lando to come in, max bulk tusk, which is the most consistent set to me, takes paltry dmg but what do you expect from Gen 9 Buzzwole. CC does around 40% to corvi which means it's not a consistent switch in and you can tera fighting if corv walls the rest of your team. All in all, I feel it has a valuable niche for how well it does into the tier's spatk mons with the spatk spam, not to mention the prio and knock which means it should never be dead weight.
Scizor I am convinced is a good mon in the tier rn, I'd like to bring up something more heat, this one is a step below scizor but I feel is underexplored . I think Cobalion has a very valuable niche in the tier currently. Great type, never gets OHKO'd, and also has very good mu's into the good mons in the tier. I think this mon shits on gambit the most out of any mon in the tier cause of typing, legit sits on darkrai unless you're running FB and even then it's a 50/50 to ohko, as long as you have an EP switchin it can switch into kyu altho you gotta be careful with this one as kyu ohko's with ep. blanket checks all phys atkers with ironpress tera ghost that's way stronger than zama's. Will never be useless because it has a great utility movepool unlike Zama, rocks/twave/taunt/volt, so when gking switches in you get rocks and either twave or taunt the fool. I need to ladder with Cobe more and I wouldn't really recommend using it unless you take into accounts its strengths and weaknesses and can recognize where, on average, it provides more than zama for your team with it's increased bulk and utility. I've been using it when I need a rocker, I need a hard physdef wall, and I don't have any fighting types, and tusk doesn't fulfill this role cause I will never use rocks tusk that's just my MO.
The biggest strength of these underexplored mons for me is how they do something against all archetypes, sciz has momentum and knock which will forever be useful, and cob has rocks, taunt to stop setup, and twave, also funnily enough if zama switches into +2 Cob you win the 1v1, or at least twave before you get roared out. I genuinely believe sciz to be a great mon in the tier rn, although Cobe is prolly like a B tier alternative to Zama that I would use if you need Zama ironpress as well as guaranteed utility.
Competitiveness: 7
First off, glowking is now on every single one of my teams(I use mainly bal sometimes BO), usually rai as well but it's just really good, this is more of a crutch for balance than anything else and imo is what is keeping balance afloat. At first I was apprehensive cause who wants to use the same mon on every team, but glowking is far more enjoyable to me than Ting, Skarm, alo, (I personally will never use ting or skarm, maybe the blim ting set) which are all kind of braindead fat mons honestly and which I find mostly unfun.
IMO darkrai is clearly the head honcho of the tier rn, has like 8 viable items, and like 8 viable moves, I think psyshock is really underrated but that's just my opinion, I feel like he is a bit better rn than he should be, it feels like we're in the discovery phase before the counter phase, similar to when ppl thought gouging was busted than the meta adapted. (Straight cap tho how is that mon busted with roar zama in the tier but I digress) I don't think I have anything to add compared to some of the better players before me.
Kyurem I think is like a half step below darkrai it has similar variety but requires a lot more building around unlike rai which fits on 99% of teams, also harder to bring kyukyu in, specs I think is a balanced set, and the mixed DD sets require prediction and I personally have never felt Kyurem to be overbearing, altho I will give a shout to dd/spear/ss/fire/elec blast I think it's a really good set if you don't need a mixed kyu on your team.
Wellspring is also really good, but I would be extremely worried about banning this mon because I swear alo/gking will just be fucking busted and altho the meta is offensively oriented rn, I feel that would push it towards fat which is different but I wouldn't consider it better.
These are clearly the 3 best mons in the tier rn (other than zama) and the only one I would vehemently oppose a ban to is wellspring as I feel like the meta might just become a lot less enjoyable.
On the other hand I'd like to bring up a super underrated mon into the current meta, which has shifted towards more spatk spam and offense, almost every team I've seen and use run at least 2 special breakers, and 3 spatk spam is super common on offense.
Scizor got relevant again in gen 8 just to beat up kyu(Imo gen 8 kyu was more busted), but it genuinely has a good mu into a lot of mons that are ultra prevelant rn. First off band bp is ole' reliable strong prio which is nice, it cleads into darkrai really easily and you can just u-turn out for dmg and momentum. I've found it to be a pretty reliable clead since rai is everywhere, but it also leads well into prima garg deo-s glimm and a few other mons. It shits on kyu obviously, if you switch into your dragon on Raging Bolt in a do or die scenario you can double into sciz to bp for the kill on tera fairy(not consistent obviously but swag), it lives a 5 fallen sucker from gambit, altho if they have glasses and rocks you have to pray. Lando and tusk are the switch ins, but lando gets near 3HKO'd by bp, w rocks up it's a lot worse for lando to come in, max bulk tusk, which is the most consistent set to me, takes paltry dmg but what do you expect from Gen 9 Buzzwole. CC does around 40% to corvi which means it's not a consistent switch in and you can tera fighting if corv walls the rest of your team. All in all, I feel it has a valuable niche for how well it does into the tier's spatk mons with the spatk spam, not to mention the prio and knock which means it should never be dead weight.
Scizor I am convinced is a good mon in the tier rn, I'd like to bring up something more heat, this one is a step below scizor but I feel is underexplored . I think Cobalion has a very valuable niche in the tier currently. Great type, never gets OHKO'd, and also has very good mu's into the good mons in the tier. I think this mon shits on gambit the most out of any mon in the tier cause of typing, legit sits on darkrai unless you're running FB and even then it's a 50/50 to ohko, as long as you have an EP switchin it can switch into kyu altho you gotta be careful with this one as kyu ohko's with ep. blanket checks all phys atkers with ironpress tera ghost that's way stronger than zama's. Will never be useless because it has a great utility movepool unlike Zama, rocks/twave/taunt/volt, so when gking switches in you get rocks and either twave or taunt the fool. I need to ladder with Cobe more and I wouldn't really recommend using it unless you take into accounts its strengths and weaknesses and can recognize where, on average, it provides more than zama for your team with it's increased bulk and utility. I've been using it when I need a rocker, I need a hard physdef wall, and I don't have any fighting types, and tusk doesn't fulfill this role cause I will never use rocks tusk that's just my MO.
The biggest strength of these underexplored mons for me is how they do something against all archetypes, sciz has momentum and knock which will forever be useful, and cob has rocks, taunt to stop setup, and twave, also funnily enough if zama switches into +2 Cob you win the 1v1, or at least twave before you get roared out. I genuinely believe sciz to be a great mon in the tier rn, although Cobe is prolly like a B tier alternative to Zama that I would use if you need Zama ironpress as well as guaranteed utility.
Yeah agreed that Scizor is really good. This mon just gets a lot of value in this meta since it is so good at RELIABLY revenge killing a lot of the high tier mons like Darkrai, Kyurem, Roaring Moon, etc. while also being effective vs a couple of fat mons like Gking & friends with Knock Off. CB BP is also super nice vs most of the Tera Fairy mons (which encapsulates a wide pool of Pokemon). The reliable and powerful priority that Scizor and its buddy Dragonite have are just so useful against so many of the offensive playstyles in the metagame, which are otherwise very easy to lose against (speaking from experience lol).
I was thinking a bit about Cobalion (lost to it pretty badly yesterday lol) and I do agree it gets a lot of mileage in the current meta (if for nothing else than checking Gambit). I think it and a lot of other more niche Fighting-types like Tauros-P, Chesnaught, and Iron Hands can fulfill a valuable role - the main thing holding all of them back is possibly being outclassed by Zamazenta which is very tough to compete with due to its combo of speed, bulk, and power. Nonetheless, you mention a lot of valuable traits Cobalion has, namely role compression with rocks, the additional Steel-typing, and T-Wave. This does make it more exploitable in some ways, but also makes it easy to justify on a lot of comps looking to do more in one slot + have adequate countermeasures to its weaknesses like Tera Ghosters & Dengo. In particular, I think it has a lot of potential making a formidable combo with Gouging Fire.
Cobalion also has access to Vacuum Wave and a decent SpA stat, which can potentially be very funny tech.
I have good memories of using Coba in a Gen 6 VoltSwitch team (shout-outs to AM for making that), but it's definitely not an easy fit. It can be worn down quickly if you're not careful and greatly suffers from 4MSS because you probably want STABs + Volt Switch. Worth experimenting with, but keep your expectations a bit tempered.
I have good memories of using Coba in a Gen 6 VoltSwitch team (shout-outs to AM for making that), but it's definitely not an easy fit. It can be worn down quickly if you're not careful and greatly suffers from 4MSS because you probably want STABs + Volt Switch. Worth experimenting with, but keep your expectations a bit tempered.
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If you were talking about me, I stopped that crusade awhile back. With the Gouging Fire suspect and the Kyurem decision before that, it became apparent we weren't going to ban mons just because they were too difficult to switch into. For better or worse, our gen 9 standards are higher than that.
Having said this, people want to ban Darkrai mostly because it is fast and hard to switch into. D-Speed is faster. Mixed attacking LO D-Speed is also hard to switch into, which shouldn't be a surprise to you since I know you read some of my many posts detailing just how few switchins it actually has.
Iron Valiant can also be difficult to switch into depending on the set, as well as needing to figure out the set. I could go on. But strictly speaking, Darkrai's ability to be very fast and difficult to switch into isn't unique. Even other Dark types like Weavile or Roaring Moon share this quality.
This of course is an oversimplification, but I bring it up because 3 of the most complained about and likely to be suspected mons (Darkrai, Wellspring, and Kyurem) are also very hard to switch into. That isn't the only reason people want them banned, but it is a big part of all that. Of the 3, Darkrai is the only one that is truly fast by gen 9 standards. The other two are essentially wallbreakers. 110 speed in gen 9 is like the old 100 speed. You can't be fast unless you are above that threshold and you are slow if you are below it.
Anyways, my point is there are plenty of things that are actually fast and difficult to check. It could at least be argued D-speed does this better than most while outrunning the entire unboosted metagame. I wasn't planning on going there because, by the gen 9 ban standards we set, that isn't really enough. In past gens it would be, though.
What are some unconventional teras you like to run?
I ran into someone that used Tera Bug on raging bolt today and it lost me the match. So give me your weird tech so I can better go "there's .1% chance of this happening" in my head
I ran into someone that used Tera Bug on raging bolt today and it lost me the match. So give me your weird tech so I can better go "there's .1% chance of this happening" in my head
dont wanna do a wcop post because there wasnt anything too notable considering it was more rebuilding and editing more than anything, but now that we're out, ill post some brief comments on what I put on the survey as a sort of post wcop meta thoughts. just a note about my games I guess, Im pretty happy about how I played and prepped, I think I've made drastic improvements and I don't really think I made significant blunders on my main stage games. unfortunately still lost to things out of my control. Getting haxed by darkrai in a game i couldve easily won -> getting inted by resttalk ting lu is pretty upsetting but not a ton I can do considering how both of those are not particularly my fault at all, just put me in positions that were very hard to win. obviously, i'm grateful for the opportunity to play and very thankful to my team and those who helped me prep and were supportive of me. hoping i continue to get more comfortable and improving in game while playing in bigger tours so I can get the good season I've been grinding for.
5/5
I think darkrai is probably the most annoying aspect of this tier at the moment, not only can it edit itself for any mu, it can edit itself for any playstyle. sets like NP are really annoying for slower teams to account for, imo causing them to over prep for it considerably. while sets that abuse status or scarf make significant progress vs offense. i dont think I need to explain too much about how good darkrai is at face value because even if you dont support ban I don't see a way that this mon isnt in your top 10 currently. an aspect I really hate about darkrai is something vert mentioned a few pages ago (even though he thinks its fine), the amount of hax options it has. between flinch, poison, freeze, twave para and even focus blast, just to cite wcop in particular, these a plethora of examples of these dictating games more darkrai plowing through teams on its own. I have vendetta with this aspect of darkrai in particular because I lost one of my games due to darkrai getting a instant twave para -> flinch -> critting my slowking while I was clicking twave. with near perfect coverage and serviceable bulk considering the role it performs, i find darkrai very anti fun all around and would full heartedly support booting it. on a side note, im not really buying the whole we should unban volcarona to fix this problem deal. like obviously banning a pokemon that soft checks half the tier because of its immense tera options was going to have some repercussions, but i really dont think unbanning another annoying as fuck pokemon to put a band aid on a different annoying as fuck pokemon is the correct path forward.
4/5
I feel 4/5 on kyurem is a tad OD but I have the belief that banning one of kyurem or waterpon would really improve the tier since these two are definitely very suffocating when it comes to slotting more defensive counterplay for one another and banning one would let the tier feel less restrictive imo. Initially, I felt banning Waterpon was a better route but after talking to some friends and reading some posts here, in particular CTC and Verts, I feel banning kyurem would probably be a better path now. I'll talk a bit more about that in second but looking at the tier I feel banning kyurem would open up more counterplay for waterpon as well where as banning waterpon wouldn't really open up more counterplay for kyurem. Not that I think kyurem is immediately more threatening than waterpon but its more of a tier health thing. I just don't really see what kind of value kyurem brings to the tier other than being annoying (and pressuring gliscor I guess). Just as a closing note, while gking is def A very good mon and would still be a ranks without kyurem, I do think its usage is a bit inflated due to kyurems existence since its the best immediate switch in for it and removing kyurem from the equation does open the possibility in more varied teams structurally.
3/5
initially had this at a 4/5 but changed it to a 3/5 and bumped kyurem up. like I mentioned, I think for the tiers health banning kyurem or waterpon is a good move forward. this thing is pretty ridiculous and annoying as fuck to face but like i said I think banning kyurem does open up some more consistent options for it. something that did really stick out after talking to friends and reading posts from people like ctc and vert is the fact that if we were to ban this guy, mola wish structures would become way more viable than they are now. while i'm usually not one to agree with this type of thinking, I think this theoretical meta (which is very likely), would absolutely be the death of this tier. thats really the sole reason im leaning towards dnb and ban darkrai + kyurem. this tier is already pretty unfun but if wishpass mola balance were to become a top archetype it would be borderline unplayable. just to reiterate, kyurem is definitely not as immediately annoying as waterpon but banning one of the two in my opinion would lead to better tier health, im leaning towards keeping waterpon at this time due to it offering some kind value in the meta such as limiting wishpass bullshit from mola whereas kyurem is just annoying as fuck to account for.
just to clarify before I move on, we absolutely should not ban both of these. banning both kyurem and waterpon would be a huge mistake and would lead to a similar mess that we had before this dlc, its one or the other for me, personally I think kyurem is the way better route to go.
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2/5
honestly broken as shit but we really need it, holds way too much back from being absolute nonsense and if it were to go then the tier is unplayable unless you want to ban a shit ton of pokemon, which is not feasible to me currently unless we do a complete tier reset and ban tera but that is also not likely to happen at all so keep zama around.
2/5
annoying but should be kept as long as zama is around, does add value to the tier as long as it zama is here lol.
2/5
either broken as hell or shit, not too sure what to think of him at this time. dont have a huge opinion on banning him right now but hes def annoying enough where I wouldnt put it at 1. opinion could change down the road but I think its just one of those mons right now that benefits from how restricted the tier is from a building stand point and taking efforts to try to fix that issue could possibly solve how annoying bolt can be some games.
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didnt write this in because im not too sold on it being a healthy addition to the tier so didnt want to put my name on the list of qualified support but a retest would be really fucking funny and if it were to happen id probably play with it a shit ton because it is a really fun mon to use at least.
5/5
I think darkrai is probably the most annoying aspect of this tier at the moment, not only can it edit itself for any mu, it can edit itself for any playstyle. sets like NP are really annoying for slower teams to account for, imo causing them to over prep for it considerably. while sets that abuse status or scarf make significant progress vs offense. i dont think I need to explain too much about how good darkrai is at face value because even if you dont support ban I don't see a way that this mon isnt in your top 10 currently. an aspect I really hate about darkrai is something vert mentioned a few pages ago (even though he thinks its fine), the amount of hax options it has. between flinch, poison, freeze, twave para and even focus blast, just to cite wcop in particular, these a plethora of examples of these dictating games more darkrai plowing through teams on its own. I have vendetta with this aspect of darkrai in particular because I lost one of my games due to darkrai getting a instant twave para -> flinch -> critting my slowking while I was clicking twave. with near perfect coverage and serviceable bulk considering the role it performs, i find darkrai very anti fun all around and would full heartedly support booting it. on a side note, im not really buying the whole we should unban volcarona to fix this problem deal. like obviously banning a pokemon that soft checks half the tier because of its immense tera options was going to have some repercussions, but i really dont think unbanning another annoying as fuck pokemon to put a band aid on a different annoying as fuck pokemon is the correct path forward.4/5
I feel 4/5 on kyurem is a tad OD but I have the belief that banning one of kyurem or waterpon would really improve the tier since these two are definitely very suffocating when it comes to slotting more defensive counterplay for one another and banning one would let the tier feel less restrictive imo. Initially, I felt banning Waterpon was a better route but after talking to some friends and reading some posts here, in particular CTC and Verts, I feel banning kyurem would probably be a better path now. I'll talk a bit more about that in second but looking at the tier I feel banning kyurem would open up more counterplay for waterpon as well where as banning waterpon wouldn't really open up more counterplay for kyurem. Not that I think kyurem is immediately more threatening than waterpon but its more of a tier health thing. I just don't really see what kind of value kyurem brings to the tier other than being annoying (and pressuring gliscor I guess). Just as a closing note, while gking is def A very good mon and would still be a ranks without kyurem, I do think its usage is a bit inflated due to kyurems existence since its the best immediate switch in for it and removing kyurem from the equation does open the possibility in more varied teams structurally.3/5
initially had this at a 4/5 but changed it to a 3/5 and bumped kyurem up. like I mentioned, I think for the tiers health banning kyurem or waterpon is a good move forward. this thing is pretty ridiculous and annoying as fuck to face but like i said I think banning kyurem does open up some more consistent options for it. something that did really stick out after talking to friends and reading posts from people like ctc and vert is the fact that if we were to ban this guy, mola wish structures would become way more viable than they are now. while i'm usually not one to agree with this type of thinking, I think this theoretical meta (which is very likely), would absolutely be the death of this tier. thats really the sole reason im leaning towards dnb and ban darkrai + kyurem. this tier is already pretty unfun but if wishpass mola balance were to become a top archetype it would be borderline unplayable. just to reiterate, kyurem is definitely not as immediately annoying as waterpon but banning one of the two in my opinion would lead to better tier health, im leaning towards keeping waterpon at this time due to it offering some kind value in the meta such as limiting wishpass bullshit from mola whereas kyurem is just annoying as fuck to account for.just to clarify before I move on, we absolutely should not ban both of these. banning both kyurem and waterpon would be a huge mistake and would lead to a similar mess that we had before this dlc, its one or the other for me, personally I think kyurem is the way better route to go.
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2/5
honestly broken as shit but we really need it, holds way too much back from being absolute nonsense and if it were to go then the tier is unplayable unless you want to ban a shit ton of pokemon, which is not feasible to me currently unless we do a complete tier reset and ban tera but that is also not likely to happen at all so keep zama around.2/5
annoying but should be kept as long as zama is around, does add value to the tier as long as it zama is here lol.2/5
either broken as hell or shit, not too sure what to think of him at this time. dont have a huge opinion on banning him right now but hes def annoying enough where I wouldnt put it at 1. opinion could change down the road but I think its just one of those mons right now that benefits from how restricted the tier is from a building stand point and taking efforts to try to fix that issue could possibly solve how annoying bolt can be some games.---------------
didnt write this in because im not too sold on it being a healthy addition to the tier so didnt want to put my name on the list of qualified support but a retest would be really fucking funny and if it were to happen id probably play with it a shit ton because it is a really fun mon to use at least.
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Oh boy, do I have a few.
- Tera Ice Tusk in order to destroy any unsuspecting gliscors that want to stay in to take a hit
- I would say tera fairy heatran but that has become popular now :(
- Tera Water on Iron Valiant to abuse liquidation (yes, I am using liquidation valiant)
- Tera Grass on Serperior in order to make leaf storm a nuke
- Tera Dark Tusk in order to boost the power of knock off while making it immune to psychic moves
- Tera Rock on Moth in order to hit both heatran and flying types for big damage with tera blast
- Tera Grass on Kingambit alongside Tera Blast and G-terrain in order to hit dozo+tusk for big damage
- Idk how common this is, but Tera Fairy on Ttar for a good defensive tera
- Tera Fire on Corviknight in order to wall rilla while taking minimal damage from kyurem
- Tera Ground on Tinkaton in order to wall raging bolt after you encore it into an electric move (idk how popular this is)
- Tera bug/flying on Heatran to have either a good defensive profile or ignore ground moves entirely respectively
I've been gone a while but I just wanted to give my opinion on every pokemon in the tier with some controversy.
5/5: This mon is just stuipd. With insane coverage, an good speed tier, and nasty plot, it just destroys any team that thinks they can answer it defensively. Even some of the best counter like AV Prim, Ting Lu, and Zama struggle to answer it in the long term. The only 100% safe switch in I've noticed is a tinkaton, a dam UU pokemon. This thing needs s suspect and has to go for the health of the meta game.
4/5: I also despie this thing. In all honesty although boots/ specs are great sets, those aren't what made me find this to be broken. It's the mixed set that throws everything into a stir. Think you glowking is safe? Nope because you just got it with a +1 scale shot. Think your Kambit is safe? Earth power goes brrrr. It is more prediction-reliant but already having to deal with the boots and specs sets along with mixed just makes this thing have no good counters. I think it should go but I'm ever so slightly more open to discussions on it.
4/5: It's pretty much kyurem but faster. No good consistent defensive answers. Even hydrapple loses to +2 play rough.+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough (108 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 300-354 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
3/5: This pokemon is very in the middle for me. On one hand it can be walled by something like clod and sometimes clef but it still really hard. The main counters/ ways I found balance deals with it is with a ting lu or a glowking pivot to a big and bad ground type. Typically a Great Tusk since lando don't run earthquake often anymore
2/5: Maybe it's just because I'm so used to it but Kambit is manageble and alr. Zama, tusk, metal birds, lando, all deal with it pretty well. The main reason on why Kambit becomes so busted is all because of tera and even then people have adapted like me. We use sub, encore, or just tera ourselves to resist and fight back. I could see why it's broken but as of now it isn't my biggest concern.
5/5: This mon is just stuipd. With insane coverage, an good speed tier, and nasty plot, it just destroys any team that thinks they can answer it defensively. Even some of the best counter like AV Prim, Ting Lu, and Zama struggle to answer it in the long term. The only 100% safe switch in I've noticed is a tinkaton, a dam UU pokemon. This thing needs s suspect and has to go for the health of the meta game. 4/5: I also despie this thing. In all honesty although boots/ specs are great sets, those aren't what made me find this to be broken. It's the mixed set that throws everything into a stir. Think you glowking is safe? Nope because you just got it with a +1 scale shot. Think your Kambit is safe? Earth power goes brrrr. It is more prediction-reliant but already having to deal with the boots and specs sets along with mixed just makes this thing have no good counters. I think it should go but I'm ever so slightly more open to discussions on it. 4/5: It's pretty much kyurem but faster. No good consistent defensive answers. Even hydrapple loses to +2 play rough.+2 252 Atk Wellspring Mask Ogerpon-Wellspring Play Rough (108 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hydrapple: 300-354 (72.1 - 85%) -- guaranteed 2HKO 3/5: This pokemon is very in the middle for me. On one hand it can be walled by something like clod and sometimes clef but it still really hard. The main counters/ ways I found balance deals with it is with a ting lu or a glowking pivot to a big and bad ground type. Typically a Great Tusk since lando don't run earthquake often anymore 2/5: Maybe it's just because I'm so used to it but Kambit is manageble and alr. Zama, tusk, metal birds, lando, all deal with it pretty well. The main reason on why Kambit becomes so busted is all because of tera and even then people have adapted like me. We use sub, encore, or just tera ourselves to resist and fight back. I could see why it's broken but as of now it isn't my biggest concern.Tera Bug Kingambit to resist ground type attacks from tusk and fighting type attacks while not becoming weak to tclap with the more common tera fly
excuse me
you are excused
We are 1.5 years in and the tier is still getting a bad wrap, everyone thinks this generation is unbalanced and unejoyable. At what point do the tier leaders take responcibility for their suspecting methods which are time and time again proven to fail the community, and even consider a different approach. No one is surprised the tier is in this position, the tiering phiosophies and methods stayed the same, and the results are repeated. A Pokemon can drop from ubers with a click of a finger, but plowing them out of OU can take months or years. You let all the broken/potentially broken Pokemon stay and we get broken checks broken. The powercreep is so high we let Darkrai back, only to realise its truely broken after months being in the tier. Judging by this thread its the next suspect and will be gone. How long is that going to take?
Are we on the path to an enjoyable and balanced metagame? Will banning one or two Pokemon solve that? I think we all know the answer.
Are we on the path to an enjoyable and balanced metagame? Will banning one or two Pokemon solve that? I think we all know the answer.
This is pretty hyperbolic, it's definitely not true that everyone thinks this generation is "unbalanced and unenjoyable". That said, given how this gen has such a (relatively) high skill floor, it's probably not incorrect that a lot of casual players are alienated by gen 9 (myself included, I only played seriously in the gen 5 weather wars and gen 6 and bounced off OU this generation because of the teambuilding restrictions).
Don't think it's at all correct to blame the council, they're doing their best with what they've got. Almost no amount of tiering action is going to make tier much more approachable while tera is around. Be reminded that drops from Ubers are very rare, and this one happened with the release of DLC2 and a myriad of new broken pokes. It maybe could've been done better but things like this have to be tried sometimes.
I was kind of taken with the arguments for the kokoloko method, and would've liked to see its results, but it was thoroughly discussed and dismissed, by people that know the tier much better than I.
Again, take everything I've said with a grain of salt because I am no longer an experienced player.
To be fair, it was the populace that let it back in within the first place. So many "MIDRAI" posts after it dropped are hilarious in hindsight for the fact we dropped the fucker down in the first place. Tier heads were told we wanted it back and they did it after enough support.
As with most things in history though, they tend to be vindicated. Much like I, cuz I was fucking saying it was a mistake to drop since it originally did no matter how many smug self assured "ITS REALLY NO BIG DEAL" posts came out.
Can some one who is good at the game, and really good at explaining things explain to me how banning Zamazenta would ruin SV OU? In a hypothetical banning which Pokemon would immediately have to go? Just how many follow up bans would have to occur for SV OU to stabilize? Would the format really be that much worse if X and Y got banned if the only reason they haven't been banned to date is solely because of Zamazenta? While obviously no other Pokemon can compare to Zamazenta; are there no other Fighting Types that can fill offensive/defensive niches left behind in the wake of a Zamazenta ban?
Zama is one of the mons that keep this tier at least somewhat playable. Ban it and SV will become totally a mess, especially all the broken physical threats this tier is filled with.
Then, ban the other broken stuff too?
A bit hyperbolic but a reflection of the previous surveys which didn't recieve satisfactory results in anyones book, both among casual and high level players. I believe you cut the tier leaders too much slack - "they are trying their best, its tera fault making it hard, drops are rare". All excuses. This game is played by thousands and thousands, they have responcibility to make a enjoyable and balanced game, and they aren't close to it. To give them credit, they are asking for more feedback, but a frustrated playerbase doesn't see the light at the end of the tunnel.
The kokoloko method was only discussed, not tried. Like you said, things need to be tried, and for 20 years the suspect methods and philosphies has been largely the same, and we keep getting OU tiers will unsatisfactory survey results. Suspect/ban all you want, the current tiering system doesn't work to create a desired metagame, especially given timely DLC drops and the 3 year window before the next generation.
So ban half of the tier then
If it needs to be done, then so be it. Or do you prefer the current state of "broken checks broken"?
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