It has 97 base speed. No speed investment leaves it vulnerable to a lot of stuff, including tusk, hamurott, lando, etc.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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It has 97 base speed. No speed investment leaves it vulnerable to a lot of stuff, including tusk, hamurott, lando, etc.
It would be fine if that was it’s only set, but Solgaleo also has access to a special set with calm mind, morning sun, and two moves of its choice, a utility set with rocks and teleport, and more with its massive movepool.
Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:
View attachment 578682
At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.
Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
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- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like
I think you got me. I'm interested in seeing this
Special doesn't sound very good to me with 113 Sp Atk, 97 Speed and psychic/flash cannon as stabs. Utility set/Future Port is obviously balanced. I just try showing that Banded isn't as broken when you look at the other bulky attackers we have.
Yeah cause its not like Hands and Ursaluna have major issues which includes speed. Zama doesn’t even scratch an inch of Solgaleo’s damage output. Gambit is broken so don’t even try.
Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
Also only two of these are actually viable. Dozo is a shitty UU mon and the most easily exploitable physical wall only used cause the meta has and still is a fucking mess. Plus Solgaleo gets Knock so have fun eating spikes. This is also ignoring the fact it has a good 113 SpA stat, and could easily just run Tbolt on a Mixe
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
And if it does, you just lost your bird and you got a bulky, strong, fast ass lion to deal with. Plus it just clicks Knock on them anywa
“Palafin gets checked by Wogre and water types if it doesn’t click coverage, lets drop it!”
And about your Zapdos,
252 Atk Choice Band Tera Steel Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 173-204 (45 - 53.1%) -- 30.5% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Psychic Fangs vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 220-261 (57.2 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
“Fairies have to watch out for coverage but can easily take Darkfu’s STABs.”
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The new paradox Pokemon we don’t know will be good or not.
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like
This argument could be used for every other banned Poke. Bax could be outsped by Pult, Zama, and Valiant. Doesn’t mean it was ok in Home and DLC1. None of them even wanna switch into Solgaleo, not to mention it could Tera just to flip that counterplay.
I think people are underestimating how good base 97 speed is. This thing is a pile of incredible stats and an incredible movepool.
It has Calm Mind, Morning Sun, all the coverage under the sun (pun completely intentional) and its bulky as shit, and the option to Tera. So you would not know what set it is, and you’d need to bring multiple checks for it. Its not the same problem with Zama cause its movepool is barren and base 120 Atk is nothing compared to 137. I’m not interested in letting in Mega Metagross if it could hold an item and if it had a billion sets.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 255-300 (63.1 - 74.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Tough Claws Metagross-Mega Meteor Mash vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mew: 207-244 (51.2 - 60.3%) -- 90.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
So main issue i'm noticing is that it revolves entirely on it keeping knock off, a move that I'm fairly certain isn't in it's base-learnset, since knock off was a transfer move from gen 7; and as we learned at the start of Gen 9, pretty much no transfer moves carried over, so unless they buff it to specifically get knock off from a TM, it's unlikely that it'll come with it. Additionally, in the calc here, you have a un-locked metagross hitting for slightly less than solgaleo, who is locked into sunsteel strike. It's technically more damage, but now you're locked into steel, which is famously a bad offensive type. So it generates a fairly free switch-in to:
Dondozo
Corviknight
Gholdengo (although at the risk of an air balloon pop)
Heatran
Iron Hands (less meta relevent, but doesn't take too much)
Kingambit
Manaphy
Moltres
Hisuian Sammurott
Skeledirge
Toxapex
and Zapdos
All of these are taking at most 50%(Sam-H) and at least like 25%, with both moltres and zapdos punishing it big time with para or burn.
At least with meta-gross it's got the risk of like a mash raise and being able to actually swap what attacking move it's hitting with.
I feel like the more warping factor would be it's bulk, and how hard it would be to take out. At the very least, if it goes tera fairy or something it's vulnerable to toxic, but it still would be super bulky regardless while being able to hit decently hard and recover off damage. I'd imagine that the issue would not come from it's ability to deal OHKOS's, but it's ability to be a super good defensive glue mon similar to gliscor. It could hit decently hard, safely pivot out, and recover damage and thats where I see it being an issue. And also 113 spA is not that good, even if it can boost it with calm mind
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Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:
View attachment 578682
At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.
Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like
So are we ignoring the fact that it has the statline of kingambit on physically attacking sets without the downside of it's speed alongside the fact that it has a genuinely pretty good special attack stat?
32 SpA Expert Belt Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 252-298 (50 - 59.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-Like sick dondozo bro but of the listed waters only slowking and suicune check, the former of which is currently not great and the latter being historically in a similar scenario.
-Same story for 2 of the 3 birds except the thing also learns stone edge to hit zapdos as well
-Eq moment
-Eq moment
-You can just tera out of your vulnerability to these types, and thanks to solgaleo's collosal bulk it will very easily be able to take those hits and kill you for trying to revenge kill it
I guess I can't persuade anyone to try tera-ghost water absorb clodsire, can I?
whatever, if palafin and annihilape become legal again I will finally have a reason to use swallot again just like I did in the begin of the generation.
it is not great, but it is fun to troll people by using their draining moves against them thanks to its liquid ooze ability.
in the begin of the generation draining moves were way more common than they are now.
Bro reeeeeally hates Solgaleo in OU.
But this is gen 9 we're talking about. Every pokemon now has their VGC moveset (moves they can only use native to that generation) for OU as well. So all that cool Knock Off and Toxic shit that you could be using? Gone. It may not even get Knock Off -- which is a pretty substantial nerf with the claims you're making. It has Iron Defense, Calm Mind and like Howl as its only forms of setup. Roar, Thunder Wave, Stealth Rock and Teleport are all nice utility options for it as well. It's pretty bulky (very bulky actually) and is pretty strong and pretty fast as well. Like I said, like you said 658Greninja , it's literally an upgraded Metagross. It would 1000% need a suspect in order to determine if it's OU. In theory, it is too strong. In practice? We don't know for sure. This is just like Zamazenta in gen 8 -- it's so embarassingly bad in Ubers as a COVER LEGENDARY that it could actually be put into OU. You may not want it, but I am a Solgaleo suspect advocate all the way to the end. i need that bulky teleport bro
"Guys, let's bring Gen 4 Choice Specs Water Spout Kyogre into OU, surely Gen 4 Choice Specs Water Spout Kyogre won't be overwhelming in OU this gen, Gen 4 Choice Specs Water Spout Kyogre has good role compresion and can help with some of the more diffucult to handle mons."
Sounds unreasonable right? Now swap Gen 4 Choice Specs Water Spout Kyogre with Solgaleo. Wow. We definitely live in a society.
Sounds unreasonable right? Now swap Gen 4 Choice Specs Water Spout Kyogre with Solgaleo. Wow. We definitely live in a society.
Sdef Waterpon just chilling under the rain. Totally balanced Ogre, definitely unban it.
252+ Atk Choice Band Zamazenta Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 254-300 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 84% chance to 2HKO
Same damage because Zamazenta is way faster and can run Adamant, Close Combat deals more damage than Sunsteel obviously
Hands and Ursaluna deal way more damage and have Sword Dance, also they dropped to UU so being a bit better doesn't make Solgaleo Ubers.
252 Atk Life Orb Solgaleo Wild Charge vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 221-263 (41.3 - 49.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Or you're banded and then you're locked into a 90BP non-Stab Electric Move.
252+ Atk Choice Band Urshifu Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 141-167 (35.7 - 42.3%) -- 93.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 104-123 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- 68.3% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
Urshifu is broken because it can break fairies with its Stabs.
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 304-358 (80.4 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Getting rewarded for a predict is nothing special, Solgaleo can't just spam its Stab like Urshifu.
And we also don't know if Solgaleo keeps Knock Off. One of the paradox Pokemon is a Steel Psychic so that's perfect for comparing.
Choice Band.
Bax is broken because it could boost its speed with DDance/Scale Shot and then sweep your team.
You don't sweep with 97 speed and when you're locked into a 100 BP Stab Steel move.
You can easily bring faster pokemon in with the birds or the water pokemon.
Which billion sets ? Banded can be scouted by sending a bulky pokemon in that resists Steel, Utility is fine and Calm Mind isn't good when you're Stabs are Psychic/Flash Cannon (it doesn't have Stored Power).
What's the difference ?
252 Atk Choice Band Solgaleo Sunsteel Strike vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 265-313 (63 - 74.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Garchomp: 309-364 (73.5 - 86.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also Great Tusk can boost its stats ! (Work Up/Calm Mind aren't good on Solgaleo)
The thing I need to reiterate is that Solgaleo isn't even strictly bad in an Ubers environment in the way that Zamazenta was (by having a role it tried to play and sucked at). The big thing that keeps Solgaleo out of usage (as a defensive/bulky attacking Steel Type) is primarily the fact that Necrozma-DM is literally the same thing but better than it for every scenario that matters, and unlike Zamazenta not really DOING anything, Solgaleo's bad match-ups prior to DM include Pokemon that OU has nothing remotely comparable to like Primal Groudon. Whether worthy of a drop-suspect or not, its bad Ubers performance doesn't tell anything of how it would fit into OU.
Dondozo is most definitely not a "shitty UU Mon," and we have no way of knowing whether Solgaleo keeps knock off, I'm a little doubtful given it has no hands
Oh man it can 2hko a not-fully-invested cheapass physical wall with a neutral STAB only if it holds a choice band, less than 1/3 of the time?
I like how you completely omitted the fact that the several Pokémon cited as "outspeeding" can OhKo solgaleo and you kind of just brushed past that part
It's very interesting how ~100 speed is good or bad depending on the point the user is trying to make at the time, I would say that with how prevalent booster speed is in this meta and how many 120+ speed mons we have that 97 is actually not great!
I hope to God we get some good Water resist in the DLC. I think the current meta is fairly balanced, but it does feel like Manaphy / Oger can run over teams a bit too easily because most of our water resist are either too passive or have shaky defensive profiles against grass Coverage / Ice coverage. Ogerpon itself is a nice check to Waters, but considering its contributing to the problem itself, that's not the best example because it can be overwhelming itself.
I'm hoping to god that both Kyurem and Archaludon wind up being balanced and viable in OU since they would help alleviate the our tiers issue with dealing with Waters a great deal.Kyurem I am expecting to be broken, but i am hoping that Archaludon is viable enough in ou to justify it as an oger / mana check.
I'm hoping to god that both Kyurem and Archaludon wind up being balanced and viable in OU since they would help alleviate the our tiers issue with dealing with Waters a great deal.Kyurem I am expecting to be broken, but i am hoping that Archaludon is viable enough in ou to justify it as an oger / mana check.
listen, since my icbb wake-up call, i'm trying to be nicer and more understanding to opinions that are different from mine. if you've read my last several posts, you might be able to pick up that i'm making more of an attempt to see where people are coming from before simply writing off their arguments.Bulky Attackers Stats comparison:
View attachment 578682
At 50 base speed, Solgaleo would potentially drop to UU.
Anyways, Solgaleo isn't a meta warping threat like other stuff we have (and we can just quick ban it), there should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like
that being said.
the solgaleo discussion is just incomprehensible to me and i can't fathom how people are on board with letting it drop. i'm simply not capable of getting myself into a headspace where solgaleo is remotely acceptable in ou, or even particularly bad in ubers—its viability is dictated not by its own merit there but by the usefulness of dusk mane necrozma. now, i of course mean no ill will to you or anyone who believes in solgaleo, but if you'll excuse my snark for a moment and allow me to tear this argument to shreds:
yes, and if ifs and buts were candies and nuts we'd all have a merry christmas. let's deal in reality, where solgaleo doesn't have base 50 speed and also doesn't have the longevity problems of everything else on that list because it has morning sun. oh yeah, and enough spa to viably run mixed sets to beat whatever physical wall pretends to check it
not sure how you got your hands on dlc2 early to look at solgaleo's movepool and definitively state that it isn't a meta-warping threat, but can you please tell me if the ultra beasts are back or not? i'm dying over here
you're right! while we're on the topic, here's a list of other things we should test because we can just quickban them:
i can vibe with some of these, actually. dozo does shut down a lot of solgaleo sets because it does the same to basically every physical attacker, and… yeah, that's the only one i actually agree with. you straight-up admitted that half your checks get blasted by common coverage moves, i don't think you ran the calcs to see if those faster mons actually ohko (they all need choice items to even have a chance with no defensive investment and they have no hope if solgaleo invests in hp), and we know exactly jack diddly shit about the paradox mons. also, how are those faster mons getting in on it safely aside from sacrificing another mon? and what if some mad lad is running assault vest and it just eats your specs pult shadow ball like a big bowl of meow mix? and what about tera, which should always be taken into consideration when talking about checks and counters? you know what, i just remembered it has higher spa than glowking, so dozo isn't an answer eitherthere should be enough counterplay like:
- Bulky waters
- Birds if Solgaleo doesn't click the one coverage move (Stone Edge/Flare Blitz)
- Bulky steels have to watch out for coverage but can easily take the Stabs
-
- The new Paradox pokemon in dlc2 also resist steel (except Terrakion)
- Faster pokemon that OHKO like
have we all collectively gone insane? how have we reached the point where people are arguing, with a straight face, about the merits of solgaleo in ou? is there something i'm missing here? did they nerf the mon while i wasn't looking? because if they did, i'll gladly take the l on this one
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Look buddy, I don't know how else to tell you this but
The king is dead.
In a tier like RU where bulky offense is very much a viable playstyle, and it's the only viable dragon dance sweeper, and it's niches aren't being filled already, where it has all this stuff going for it, the fact that it's not even in the top 10 might be a good indicator of how it'll preform in OU.
And this isn't even like a meta adaptation thing where the checks are used more than the thing they're checking, it's just how it is.
In a tier where everything beats it, where the power level is so much higher than in RU, I could never imagine ttar finding a niche in OU, even if Darkrai came back.
Especially since it's niche would be filled by Kingambit, with the only reason to run it being that it has a higher spD under sand. It's only coming back if excadrill does, and even then it'll simply be there to set sand.
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Imo the solgaleo discussion relies too heavily on what moves it gets, which we have no clue of knowing until the dlc actually drops. I don't necessarily mind the convo and I'm not gonna act like a minimod, but it's hard to talk about it when something like knock off can decide its fate on being considered in the first place
Can we not make this tier UU Ubers? The whole point of UU Ubers is so people wouldn’t have these debates, cause they have a use in a tier, albeit an unofficial one.
Giratina this! Lando-I that! Luigi all over! Solgaleo under!
I get that this tier is boring, but this isn’t gonna help matters in balancing this tier or making OU any better. We’re only adding more strain to teambuilding by dumping mascot legendaries into the tier cause of power creep.
Half of the tier would just get instantly power crept, moreso than they already are. Ttar’s in RU, Chomp isn’t even a meta staple, Lando-T has a midlife crisis, Hippo is nowhere to be seen, Washtom is washed, and people have discussed dropping Zacian.
Zamazenta only stayed cause its Atk was nerfed to base 120 and the tier has several checks and the amount of fighting resists discouraging Band. Especially since most of them are Regen pivots. Solgaleo has a several possible sets due to its stat spread and movepool. Which is a problem we had with Magearna. Be it Band, CM, Mixed, etc.
Also don’t even compare Tusk to Solgaleo when the latter has better SpD, Speed, and doesn’t have the potential to go mixed.
Chaotic metas are fun for like a week, but the main goal should be balance.
Sorry for the rants.
Giratina this! Lando-I that! Luigi all over! Solgaleo under!
I get that this tier is boring, but this isn’t gonna help matters in balancing this tier or making OU any better. We’re only adding more strain to teambuilding by dumping mascot legendaries into the tier cause of power creep.
Half of the tier would just get instantly power crept, moreso than they already are. Ttar’s in RU, Chomp isn’t even a meta staple, Lando-T has a midlife crisis, Hippo is nowhere to be seen, Washtom is washed, and people have discussed dropping Zacian.
Zamazenta only stayed cause its Atk was nerfed to base 120 and the tier has several checks and the amount of fighting resists discouraging Band. Especially since most of them are Regen pivots. Solgaleo has a several possible sets due to its stat spread and movepool. Which is a problem we had with Magearna. Be it Band, CM, Mixed, etc.
Also don’t even compare Tusk to Solgaleo when the latter has better SpD, Speed, and doesn’t have the potential to go mixed.
Chaotic metas are fun for like a week, but the main goal should be balance.
Sorry for the rants.
I already stated before I don't think anything dropping in DLC2 will accomplish anything until we sort out the current/new arrivals first. With that said I do still intend to respond to posts and arguments about bans/unbans that I think are arguing from flawed or bad positions (in favor of either, bad "stay banned" arguments are one of the biggest fuels in sentiment towards unbanning so I want to break those too).
The thing that makes Solgaleo's 97 Base speed "good" in this discussion is the fact that it has 137/107/89 Bulk and actual function offenses for an OU context.
(Tera is used just to keep all hits neutral for numerical demonstration)
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 186-219 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 210-247 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Great Tusk: 313-369 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it more or less retains Great Tusk's Physical bulk with nearly 1.5-1.6x the Special bulk to match and no offensive compromises. If you're not a dedicated Wallbreaker (not just an attacker, your job is busting defensive backbone) or at least using a SE attack on it (granted most of those weaknesses are very viable types), you're lucky to 2HKO this thing before it punches a hole or at minimum gets an easy Teleport position.
Where the speed comes in is the fact that it takes less investment to get it over a couple useful benchmarks including Defensive Tusk and Lando-T, Adamant Dragonite, Gliscor if we return it in DLC2, and being out of "creep" range of Defensive Gholdengo (who requires 80 more Speed EVs to beat any corresponding benchmark for Tusk) for a couple random examples off the Speed tiers thread. 97 Base speed is bad when you're an offensive mon that needs to minimize your hits taken, it's less an issue when you're an extremely bulky offensive/utility Pokemon that can not only survive the hits that come first but potentially heal that damage off with a reliable recovery move. Stuff like Dragapult and IV have high speed but MUST go first otherwise they'll bite it; a mon like Solgaleo by comparison basically expects to go second, so if it doesn't then you're potentially double-screwed.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 366-432 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Solgaleo: 364-430 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (to grab an extremely powerful worst-case-scenario attack something like this might have to take).
If you have Tera intact especially, this thing is not going down without getting its own shot in (Gambit's too slow to hit with anything besides Sucker Punch unless it wants to play SD Chicken in a case where it could lose for once in this example).
I find it equally disingenuous to argue as if everyone saying a speed tier is good or bad is arguing for a Pokemon with the exact same kit or playstyle in every scenario. 105 speed is slow on a Sweep-aiming Pokemon like Enamorus but would be absurdly useful on a bulky Pokemon like Ting-Lu or Toxapex (heck its 95 Speed is one factor in making Gliscor so hard to shut down for Defensive teams). It changes based on the point the user is trying to make at the time because often the time is about "I think this Pokemon is a really powerful Glass Cannon" vs "this Pokemon is an absurdly bulky Wallbreaker," two roles that have very different standards for their speed benchmarks.
So before I get into the main part I want to respond to here, Sunsteel Strike is not a neutral STAB, it's a resisted Steel move.
The thing that makes Solgaleo's 97 Base speed "good" in this discussion is the fact that it has 137/107/89 Bulk and actual function offenses for an OU context.
(Tera is used just to keep all hits neutral for numerical demonstration)
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 156-184 (42 - 49.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Iron Valiant Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 186-219 (44.8 - 52.7%) -- 23.8% chance to 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Solgaleo: 210-247 (50.6 - 59.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tera Fighting Great Tusk: 313-369 (84.3 - 99.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So it more or less retains Great Tusk's Physical bulk with nearly 1.5-1.6x the Special bulk to match and no offensive compromises. If you're not a dedicated Wallbreaker (not just an attacker, your job is busting defensive backbone) or at least using a SE attack on it (granted most of those weaknesses are very viable types), you're lucky to 2HKO this thing before it punches a hole or at minimum gets an easy Teleport position.
Where the speed comes in is the fact that it takes less investment to get it over a couple useful benchmarks including Defensive Tusk and Lando-T, Adamant Dragonite, Gliscor if we return it in DLC2, and being out of "creep" range of Defensive Gholdengo (who requires 80 more Speed EVs to beat any corresponding benchmark for Tusk) for a couple random examples off the Speed tiers thread. 97 Base speed is bad when you're an offensive mon that needs to minimize your hits taken, it's less an issue when you're an extremely bulky offensive/utility Pokemon that can not only survive the hits that come first but potentially heal that damage off with a reliable recovery move. Stuff like Dragapult and IV have high speed but MUST go first otherwise they'll bite it; a mon like Solgaleo by comparison basically expects to go second, so if it doesn't then you're potentially double-screwed.
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 366-432 (76.5 - 90.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tera Steel Solgaleo: 364-430 (76.1 - 89.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (to grab an extremely powerful worst-case-scenario attack something like this might have to take).
If you have Tera intact especially, this thing is not going down without getting its own shot in (Gambit's too slow to hit with anything besides Sucker Punch unless it wants to play SD Chicken in a case where it could lose for once in this example).
I find it equally disingenuous to argue as if everyone saying a speed tier is good or bad is arguing for a Pokemon with the exact same kit or playstyle in every scenario. 105 speed is slow on a Sweep-aiming Pokemon like Enamorus but would be absurdly useful on a bulky Pokemon like Ting-Lu or Toxapex (heck its 95 Speed is one factor in making Gliscor so hard to shut down for Defensive teams). It changes based on the point the user is trying to make at the time because often the time is about "I think this Pokemon is a really powerful Glass Cannon" vs "this Pokemon is an absurdly bulky Wallbreaker," two roles that have very different standards for their speed benchmarks.
i don't go here (laddering) since some gens ago, but. guys.
0 SpA Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this is with no investment other than not having a negative nature. if at any point dondozo loses his boots, that's a 2hko with either 2 layers of spikes, or 1 layer + rocks. if solgaleo fancies itself a life orb, that's a 2hko. and what is dondozo doing back? even if solgaleo somehow has no bulk investment?
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 87-103 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
even if it's the full spdef + leftovers set (uncommon according to stats), solgaleo outdamages before dondozo sets up at least one curse.
0 SpA Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 136-160 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 30.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
once again, no investment. against its assumed biggest check.
solgaleo is not happening in OU.
0 SpA Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Dondozo: 204-240 (40.4 - 47.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
this is with no investment other than not having a negative nature. if at any point dondozo loses his boots, that's a 2hko with either 2 layers of spikes, or 1 layer + rocks. if solgaleo fancies itself a life orb, that's a 2hko. and what is dondozo doing back? even if solgaleo somehow has no bulk investment?
0 Atk Dondozo Liquidation vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Solgaleo: 87-103 (20.9 - 24.8%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
even if it's the full spdef + leftovers set (uncommon according to stats), solgaleo outdamages before dondozo sets up at least one curse.
0 SpA Solgaleo Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dondozo: 136-160 (26.9 - 31.7%) -- 30.2% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
once again, no investment. against its assumed biggest check.
solgaleo is not happening in OU.
I will say that the point of dropping from ubers comes directly from how Ubers is defined; as a banlist from OU. It's not being done to "spice up the tier" and we've only discussed like one mascot legend, you don't see people asking for kyogre to be dropped (unlike what some in this forum believe), and the one time Lando-I and Giratina was brought up, pretty much everyone was in agreement they would be too much for the tier. The whole discussion is happening because we're trying to see what still deserves to be banned from OU. OU is, as stated, the basis for all play on PS!, and Ubers is it's banlist. It's pretty normal in all metagames to see if something that's banned from the tier still deserves to be banned; take Lycanrock-Dusk in RU(I play RU a lot, you may have noticed). It was banned at the start of the metagame and stayed in BL hell for almost an entire year before it was discussed again recently and unbanned. The powerlevel of the format rose, the meta changed, and Lycanrock-Dusk is now a solid B+ wallbreaker. I also would like to point out that the point of UUbers not to be a "there, are you happy" metagame.
I would also like to remind everyone that Luigi is currently in AGBL, and will not be dropping anytime soon.
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