Super Smash Brothers Brawl Discussion #3

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That was a joke. But Mario does have a chance to be not the middle of the middle. All his moves are much better and come out a lot quicker, although its too bad he got a useless B move. Now I'm going to disprove most of your list for top tier.

Zelda (LOL no. She may have gotten buffs, but no, not close.)
Diddy (Eh, just doesn't have the killing power, so not the best I'd say.)
Pit (I'll give you that, hes seems great.)
Wolf (Yep, Wolfs a bitch to fight.)
Snake (No, just no. To slow and laggy.)
Toon Link (Hard to say, but he seems up there.)
Lucas (A PK user has never made it high at all, Lucas is no exception, he may be better then Ness, and even that may not be true, but hes not good enough for high.

Marth will be high again, thats an easy given. No for Ike, as hes quite the mixed bag, hell, even Ken is playing him now just to figure him out. I don't know about Olimar, as Kira has only used like 3 moves on me.

Here are my counterarguments, in order.
Zelda: I don't know why you can't see how amazing she is. She wasn't just buffed, she was improved an insane amount. Her fair/bair are basically the same as ever, amazing. Her Uair has more kill potential and a larger hit box, Her F and U smashes are both better kill moves and have combo potential, her neutral A comes out fast and messes with opponents struggling just to get through your rain of fire. Din's fire obviously is ballsout, possibly the best attack in the game. Her Dsmash comes out insanely quickly and has kill potential, off of a missed Din's fire if they've put themselves in range, you can usually Dsmash out of harms way. Her tilts are still good, with some kill and combo potential, but IMO aren't even needed. Her forward and back throws still have the same great kill potential. I'll edit in some links to insane videos when I get a chance.

Diddy: Bananaspam is almost as annoying as Zelda's rain of fire. Me and my friends have been practicing it a lot lately and it has a boatload of potential. Diddy's ability to rack up damage quickly and annoy people isn't really questioned by anyone, so I'll move onto kill moves. His Fair and Bair are both decent kill moves (he has one of the best Fairs in the game), his back or forward (or both?) throws have kill potential. His Dsmash and Fsmash are both good kill moves as well. All of these moves come out quickly, have little lag and have plenty of knockback. I'll admit, he isn't high on my list of prospects, but once bananaspamming becomes more perfected he'll be a frightful matchup for most characters.

Snake: If you're too laggy with Snake, you aren't playing him right. Here's a list of his quick moves that are viable. His up tilt juggles and has some killing potential. His forward tilt is a great combo with damage and kill potential. His neutral A combo has some kill potential, but is mostly just the same as his forward tilt combo only with more range and less knockback/damage. His grenades are practically his whole game. Annoying as hell in the hands of a skilled player who shield cancels them to drop them at the feet of a foe in your face, or times it out to explode on contact, spams them, etc. His Bair is a great kill move that's as fast as any Bair and has ridiculous reach and priority, the same can be said of his Uair. His dash attack is good, and can cancel into his Usmash and provide a super wave dash, against a ledge the Usmash will always hit at low and medium percentages. His forward B can edge hog (and spike) very effectively. His down B can be placed during downtime and blown up fairly quickly, if you spam grenades you can do this without being noticed and catch opponents off guard, especially dropped out of the air (it may be mistaken for a grenade). His Nair off of a neutral jump is damage and kill potential. Simply put, Snake is a very complicated character with maybe more techs than any other character, but top players recognize his potential as a great character.

Lucas: He loses Nesses most glaring weakness. His PK thunder passes through people. On top of that, it's a great move to spam from a distance against the likes of Ike, Dedede, Bowser, etc. It's a great edge guarding move, it runs a tighter circle than Ness' and is easier to control too. His PK Fire is obviously great, decent range, damage and knockback. Comes out quickly enough with little lag afterwords. Good for edgeguarding or spamming. His down B is essential for beating other projectile spammers like Pit, Zelda, Falco. His Fsmash has huge kill potential, good range, decent speed. His Usmash has enormous range and kill potential, and despite it's speed is a very good move. Dsmash is forgettable, duration is great and can catch opponents trying to spit-dodge off guard. Tilts are mediocre. Utilt can combo some. His aerial game is amazing. His Fair hits for good damage, is very quick and combos well. His Bair is good for comboing, keeping opponents at distance, spiking safely.

Ike: The key to playing Ike is to take advantage of his getting used to timing his moves. DON'T spam Fsmash, this is a terrible strategy. His forward and up tilts are both good for comboing, damaging and KOing. His Usmash has amazing reach and kill potential, not terrible speed either. His Fsmash should be used sparringly as a kill move or to catch opponents off guard/edge guard. His neutral B is a good kill move with invincibility frames and good range. His forward B is essential to recovering and is very quick/fairly strong. Good for comboing, catching opponents off guard, recovering. Aether does good damage and is a quick attack that's easily combo'd with. His aerials are very important. Bair is maybe his best attack. Stupid fast, stupid strong, hard to time due to short duration. His Fair is good as an approaching technique with lots of knockback and priority. His Uair is similar to his Fair only obviously to be used on falling opponents.

Olimar: Very hit or miss here. He has either the longest or second longest grab range in the game of a none tether-grab character (the other is Charizard). His throws are all pretty good. Tilts are mostly useless, since his smashes are so broken. His smash attacks are all basically the same too. He throws a pikmin in the direction of the smash. All of them have absurd knockback and speed with decent priority and great range. His Fair and Bair and Uair are all quick and strong with no lag and some kill potential. His Dair can spike and also does plenty of damage. His forward B is very important too, keeping opponents busy with a barrage of Pikmin allows you to approach him more safely or force him to make a mistake, while also racking up damage. Just be careful about your Pikmin count. Obviously his biggest weakness is recovery, since he can be edge hogged easily. The best Olimar players have a purple Pikmin available at high percentages, and can down B to a purple, throw it at the edge hogger, and snipe the edge with his grapple (sometimes killing the edge hogger). It's very difficult to beginning Olimar players, but more than doable.

/End rant.
 
That was a joke. But Mario does have a chance to be not the middle of the middle. All his moves are much better and come out a lot quicker, although its too bad he got a useless B move. Now I'm going to disprove most of your list for top tier.

Zelda (LOL no. She may have gotten buffs, but no, not close.)
Diddy (Eh, just doesn't have the killing power, so not the best I'd say.)
Pit (I'll give you that, hes seems great.)
Wolf (Yep, Wolfs a bitch to fight.)
Snake (No, just no. To slow and laggy.)
Toon Link (Hard to say, but he seems up there.)
Lucas (A PK user has never made it high at all, Lucas is no exception, he may be better then Ness, and even that may not be true, but hes not good enough for high.

Marth will be high again, thats an easy given. No for Ike, as hes quite the mixed bag, hell, even Ken is playing him now just to figure him out. I don't know about Olimar, as Kira has only used like 3 moves on me.


What the hell are you talking about. I have used all his moves on you.... except for maybe his down tilt and back air.

Also there is another reason Olimar can be top tier... I haven't used it at all, but it's called whistle armor. If you use his down-B right as your opponent lands an attack Olimar suffers 0 knockback from the attack. He still takes damage but it can make the difference between life and death in a high pressure match.
 
i agree with kira. he uses all of pikmens moves to his advantage. uh..
he uses all of his smashes, most of his aerials, all of his specials etc...
it may seem like he uses only 3 moves because his moves look the same and he spams the best moves, which is ok to do. i do with wolf; i take his blaster into advantage, and i spam his forward smash and down smash (down smash kills at much lower %), and sometimes i spam his n-air. it is great for approaching.
 
nice vid darkwarcloud, my friend can do that too, not not nearly to the extent you can
kinda random, but you just mentioned that you play wolf. I just unlocked him, and he's pretty interesting. Any tips? (how to spike without putting putting yourself in danger, air game vs ground game, ect.)
 
Well sorry Kira, it looks like all your doing is side smash and throw, or side B, I can never tell with Pikmin.
 
Noooo! Marth can't be top tier! If he is, I'm not maining him. >:O

Haha
Emblem Lord said:
If you think Marth isn't top tier then you fail to see what competitive Brawl is all about and why Marth can't be anything else, but top tier.

I will break it down for you.

Brawl isn't about combos.

It's about utility moves. You need moves for every single situation. And they need to have good range, speed and priority. You could say that about any fighter, but in Brawl it's super improtant since you can't combo. So your moves need to be fast strong and safe to reliably build damage.

All of Marth's moves are awesome now. And since he spaces at the tip of his blade, it easy to stay safe.

And all of Marth's weaknesses were eliminated.

Melee weakness number 1- Marth struggled to get kills at higher percents: Marth has more kill moves then any character in the game now. All of his smashes kill and are pretty safe.

Melee weakness number 2 - Marth lacked killer aerials: Marth lost his aerial combos, but in return his aerials are stronger and now they have killing power behind them. All his aerials can kill now.

Melee weakness number 3 - Marth lacked a really good close range offense: In melee if you got in Marth's face he didn't have alot of options. Not so anymore. Dancing Blade is as fast as his jab, so the Dancing Blade combo IS his new jab pretty much. Also Dolphin Slash has been buffed to high heaven giving Marth another close range option.

Marth lost a little bit of range, a little bit of grab range lahtough is running grab was nerfed more then his standing grab, loss of grab combos, and loss of aerial combos.

Although loss of combos is mostly due to physics not a personal flaw on Marth's part.

But so what?

Marth has his dancing blade for damage now. Plus Dancing Blade is great since EVERY HIT counts towards attack regeneration. So all his other moves will stay at full strength. Marth can still gimp recoveries. And he kills better then before. Plus he has moves that act as great punishers and he has plenty of options out of his shield.

He ahs all the tools to be top tier in Brawl. How can he not be top tier?

How?

Someone explain it to me.

Camping is not unstoppable and let me tell you guys straight up that M2K really doesn't like dealing with camping. He thinks it's boring and stupid and when he gets camped he tries to rushdown which gets him messed up.

Why can't Marth thorw out fast safe moves?

That's all Brawl is!!!!!!!

Pressure in this game is just throwing out moves on someone's shield that allow you to stay safe.

Grabs are just for positioing advantage and to make people fear shielding.

Also it's very easy to shield stab in this game, since shields get wrecked easily. And Marth also has shield breaker which is more effective this time around. People like to shield camp?

ShieldBreaker is the answer.

Marth has all the tools neccessary to be top tier.

He has too much going for him not to be top tier.

In all seriousness though, it doesn't matter if he's top or not. I'm still maining him (felt a bit awkward when I first played him in Brawl). You shouldn't be discouraged to main Marth if he does end up in top tier. I mean, what's your real reason for maining him in the first place?
 
Really? I thought Zelda would be used a lot because she got buffed and she has Sheik... :P I'll use all three of them then... I don't care anymore!

And thanks for that looong post, Jibaku. o.o;
 
Please stop giving him pointers, it's really going to kill me later on.

I have made it my goal to stop your Ike takeover of the Internet Renaissance and eventually the world. Your days in this discussion thread are numbered. Prepare to die.

I've noticed the potential for Pit abuse myself. The problem is not his Forward B so much as his arrows. They're incredibly fast and can distance the screen, and you have much more combo potential with them then any other arrow user (Link and TL). I don't have much of a feel for counters and anti-characters at the moment, but if I had to guess at an Pit counter, I'd say Sonic. Fast, light, and can easily get inside Pit's kill zone. He also has good air combos, which in my experience, Pit cannot deal with too well.
 
I'm not necessarily on Ike alone anymore. As of this morning I'm really starting to like Wario a lot. He's fun with a lot of tricky hitboxes and aerial movement. Motorcycles ftw!
 
I love Fox.

But the new Falco is so horrible for me :/

His new reflector is completely useless. His F-air has tons of landing lag but hey, it's still an improvement on the old one. His n-air seems pretty useless. At least his b-air is still a sex kick, but it has some landing lag. Up-air was nerfed. D-tilt was nerfed. F-smash isn't as good as Fox's, it seems. Up-tilt is weird and seems worse. Everything else seems about the same.
 
I'm not necessarily on Ike alone anymore. As of this morning I'm really starting to like Wario a lot. He's fun with a lot of tricky hitboxes and aerial movement. Motorcycles ftw!


Damn.... His D-air surpasses Olimar's U-smash btw... dont know why I am telling you that, but I guess I feel like being nice.

Also I think Zelda had something amazing happen to her... let me put it this way

Melee: "What's the worst special move in Melee?" "Sheik's Down-B lol!!!"

Brawl: "What's one of the worst special moves in Brawl? "Zelda's Down-B lol!!!"


Sheik got so nerfed, Zelda got insanely buffed.
 
Kirbycide upthrow is still in. And now Meta's got it too.

But you have to have a ceiling above you, so you don't get the full height of the suplex. And you have to be like, almost off the edge, so close that if someone tried to push you by walking into you they can't because the ledge is right there.

So there goes the practicality, but it's still fun if you've got an idiot for an opponent, or are playing on Skyworld/Temple/Spear Pillar and have like a million damage and two stocks left and your opponent only has one because it kills you at the same time now. >_>

Someone claimed they did it at FD/Battlefield but doesn't know how, but they seem like the type of honest but clueless person the internet is full of and I'll keep trying for it.

Nothing on the back throw yet. :(

To conclude this post, Snake's Dair is amazing and the Dedede codec is the ultimate best. "Are you sure that's not a penguin?" is almost as good as the "What's under his mask?" "His face, Snake." I was hoping MK would have.
 
How do you do the codex entries again? I was on his stage and kept using the taunt buttons but that didnt work...
 
That doesn't help at all since I never knew you could do starfox conversations in melee. Why couldn't you just tell me what to do.
 
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