Super Smash Bros. Brawl: Character and Tier Discussion

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Oy no wonder people hate competitive smashers, people just go on and on about the same meaningless debate. its like furry debates and competitive pokémon debates... Wait a minute...

Isn't the whole point of playing a game to have fun and also playing it instead of arguing about it for days on end? That is something I'll never get about other competitive folks.

If ya want to really make Lucas mid-tier then dazzle us with techniques, make videos, place high in tournaments, etc. That will really show people how much higher he really is.

I'm pretty sure the bat KOs at earlier percents than the stick if sweetspotted.

Well anyways I was really happy to see Lucario as high as he is. The only MK I've ever played that truly made him look like he was top of the class was Ally's.

Also Umby are you Teh Umby? If so 'member me? :D
 
No wonder smart people hate stupid people, they seem to assume that debate isn't the slightest bit entertaining in its own right and that playing competitively means forgoing fun in the process.
 
MythTrainerInfinity said:
Isn't the whole point of playing a game to have fun and also playing it instead of arguing about it for days on end? That is something I'll never get about other competitive folks.
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What if some poeple find it fun to play competitively? Then they could consider all this fun. (I certainly find it fun. Any discussion I read improves my game, and increases my chances of victory.)

I think people say Lucas is better because he's easier to use/learn. I don't use either Ness or Lucas competitively (probably because I can barely control PK Thunder) but I'm better with Lucas because he's more user-friendly. Ness is probably much better in the air, but I can end fights much more quickly by getting lucky with the U-Smash. It lasts for a very long time, and If I'm standing near where opponents will land they probably air dodge, but still get hit because they can't dodge right when they land. Lucas is just so much easier to use, why would I not say he's better when I can develope my skill with him in less time than with Ness?

Anyway, I think the tier list is fine though, it's only the first version and will get more accurate with time. My mains seem lower than I think they should be (Wolf and Toon Link) but maybe there's just more potential to other characters.
 
Mia said:
Lucas has a character specific wavedash that is decently useful, you should look into it if you use the character.

Colin's post shows a general lack of insight to competitive smash that I do not wish to attack, so I offer no refutation. If you insist on one, PM me.

Mexi-Kade, as a Rochester resident, I highly suggest you attend my personal favorite smash venue of all time, Arena 51. Go in for a Lock-In and ask for Kelvin. I envy your location, I have to travel a few hundred miles to go there.

I will be attending a tournament at Arena 51 in early November, perhaps we can meet there.
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O really? Quite interesting. I've been to Area 51 a few times actually, though I am by no means a regular. It's somewhat out of my way as I am without a car at the moment, but this tournament in November sounds fun. Though I consider myself more of a casual Smash player nowadays, what with there being just not enough time in the day to play as much as I would like to, if I'm able to attend I'll be sure to look out for you.
 
Too much Ness/Lucas imo. They are easily gimped, but are good offensively. I don't play them but I play against them alot. Peanuts/Bananas ftw.
 
yoshididdy said:
Too much Ness/Lucas imo.
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I agree. Let's talk about a character that no one will argue over whether she's good or not: Samus

Bigfoot said:
dealing with [Samus'] zair is so easy its dumb, which is why no ones thought of it, you roll inside, because once samus lands, all her attacks are either to slow or to useless to do anything. roll in and do a quick high priority attack and she's screwed
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If I had room to sig this, I would. Don't know why I never thought of it. Theoretically, it sounds like it completely neutralizes the best (and only?) thing Samus has going for her, but maybe a good Samus has a way to capitalize on that...somehow *shrug*

Also.

all her attacks are either to slow or to useless to do anything
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Finally someone else other than me gets it.
 
ColinJF said:
"Lucas KOs lower" - wrong

Lucas' Usmash kills at about the same percent as Ness' PKT2, and is less punishable.

"doesn't get gimped on recovery" - wrong

Zapjump totally helps his recovery. =/ He also has tether edgeguard

"better specials" - Ness's pk thunder is much better (it's one of his main attacking moves!) and for what it's worth, pk flash is also better than pk freeze (but they both suck anyway)

Thier PKTs are used completely differently (besides for recovery anyway). Ness uses PKT2 to kill and Lucas uses PKT to edgeguard.
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^ actually Lucas's usmash kills mario on FD at 75%.... while ness's pkt2 will kill him from the center of FD at 38% >______________>. And Lucas's usmash has a lot more cooldown than ness's pkt2.

I forgot about the zapjump though; I've never seen anyone do it. (dew it maku :O)
 
HotGarbage said:
^ actually Lucas's usmash kills mario on FD at 75%.... while ness's pkt2 will kill him from the center of FD at 38% >______________>. And Lucas's usmash has a lot more cooldown than ness's pkt2.

I forgot about the zapjump though; I've never seen anyone do it. (dew it maku :O)
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Yes, Lucas' up smash is quite a powerful move, but I'm afraid it is DEFINITELY not a horribly low% killer IN COMPARISON to Ness' PKT2. What Hot mentioned about Mario and such is very much so, while Lucas' up smash would probably send him halfway up the screen on FD at the same %. =/

As for the zap jump. I know how to do it, but I'm afraid I CAN'T find any use for it. If you mess up when you're knocked off the stage..you'll perform an UNNECESSARY PK Fire which will hinder your chances of getting back. Besides, recovering with Lucas usually isn't an issue for me, and I've gotten great remarks about my Lucas usage WITHOUT the zapjump. ^^

...though, I suppose the zapjump would make it...safer...but I usually like to attack when i return to the stage. =)
 
HotGarbage said:
^ actually Lucas's usmash kills mario on FD at 75%.... while ness's pkt2 will kill him from the center of FD at 38% >______________>. And Lucas's usmash has a lot more cooldown than ness's pkt2.

I forgot about the zapjump though; I've never seen anyone do it. (dew it maku :O)
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You'll have to fiddle around with your controls a little, but Zamp Jumps get to be pretty easy after a while (I'm a fan of setting Jump to L). As Maku's said though, Lucas's recovery is pretty good already so it is kind of unneeded.

It's definitely a high risk / high reword thing though. just a little screw up can completely screw over your Second jump.

I guess it's really handy for coming back after being hit by a weak spike
 
For Lucas, I use:

Bstick
L to jump
tapjump off

It's actually quite easy to pull it off once you know the timing. Also, Zapjump is absolutely necessary for recovery when you're knocked below the camera view.
 
Mia said:
I think Brawl is awful. In forfeiting the game mechanics, they also made the most abused characters the ones with the most mechanical exploits, destroying all character balance by default. Nintendo also clearly cut corners and did a shoddy programming job. This is evident because the loading times are much longer if you switch colors between matches. It also manifests itself when Zelda/Sheik Transform takes much longer the first time than after that, as the character has to load mid-match. Etc. There are many examples, but these are the easiest to check.

Try using Transform and pausing it and checking the timing. The game will load the other character during the pause and shorten the length during gameplay dramatically.
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It goes very fast for me, both on Wi-fi and against Computers. It could be Internet Connection, not the game slowing it down.
 
It has already been conclusively demonstrated how Transform works and it is, in fact, the game causing the bottleneck because it has to read from disk.
 
People need to realize that no tier list will ever be 100% accurate, and although I don't agree with all of it I can see where the SBR's coming from.

I'm just kind of curious why ROB and Falco are placed on the same tier as Meta Knight and Snake, when neither of them dominate as much as the others. I guess putting MK in his own tier would just fuel the "let's ban meta knight" idiots but it compromises accuracy.
 
Mia said:
Given the resources available, I think the SBR list is very well done. I dislike the policy of present and forget, as there is a high demand for character placement explanation. The list itself is pretty accurate though.

Again, if there are any requests concerning character placement or methods of character placement, I will circumvent SBR secrecy policy and answer to them. I do not believe that secrecy is the best way to promote anything.
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Well in that case, I'm just curious on some commentary on how Falco, Pokemon Trainer, and Sonic were placed where they are on the tier list. It's not that I even disagree with their placements, aside from very minor qualms like Falco > DDD (Game and Watch would obviously be > DDD as well, but that's another point entirely). I would just like to know how and why they were placed where they were is all since they are my main three characters.

the Lexx said:
I'm just kind of curious why ROB and Falco are placed on the same tier as Meta Knight and Snake, when neither of them dominate as much as the others. I guess putting MK in his own tier would just fuel the "let's ban meta knight" idiots but it compromises accuracy.
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Though tournament results alone isn't how characters are positioned in a tier list, as of now, Falco is beating Game & Watch in the Tournament Results List and is going neck and neck with Dedede (He is marginally being beaten by Dedede, but shortly before he was marginally being Dedede). I can't speak for ROB since I'm not following him, but if Falco isn't qualified to be in the same tier as Metaknight and Snake because he doesn't "dominate as much", then Game and Watch and Dedede shouldn't be qualified to be in the same tier either.

Personally, I would support giving MK his own tier over moving anyone from the current top tier down though.
 
They had to make room for a Steak Tier.

Also iffy about Wario being so high after hearing about how badly he gets manhandled by so many characters through grab-releases, though hell if I know much about him. Seeing PT higher than Yoshi is also something I would like explaining.
 
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