I've seen a drastic rise in snatch use over the last couple of days. Seems like the meta is trying to counter belly drum a bit.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2024 Smog Awards!
Metagame Suicide Cup
- Thread starter Adrian Marin
- Start date
NotSoClutch, Snatch is an extremely important move in this metagame. I believe balanced teams should have at least two Snatch users. This is easy to achieve if you're in the habit of using Gothitelle. Also, Pokemon like Darmanitan and Sableye fulfill this role, and offer great role compression at the same time.
Just to clear up the questions, the IVs make the HP divisible by 8 so the Pokemon die as quickly as possible to passive damage such as Toxic, Substitute, etc. Inkay's Switcheroo is an emergency measure in case Absol is killed (a strategy taken by some against serious PerishPass teams), otherwise it's dead (alive?) in the water; just a situationally useful filler. Imprison on Smeargle is actually one of my favorite moves. It prevents other Pokemon from using Substitute, allowing Smeargle to freely Heal Pulse, or just dispose of itself with Mind Blown. It also helps with Gothitelle, as even when Smeargle was trapped it couldn't be healed. I used Haunter over Gastly to outspeed things like Abra and Poliwag; the speed tier is useful and I think worth the base 15 increase in Attack.
Ans yes, Scarf Goth is very difficult to deal with. Leading with a Sticky Hold mon, Ghost, or Mega is pretty much essential. I guess Prankster Taunt gets a spot in there too. My personal opinion is that there should somehow be a clause that restricts teams to one Pokemon per evolution line... people will probably disagree, but that's just me.
Last edited:
I would be very happy with this rule. We already have Species Clause in place; having two Pokemon from the same line is basically just a technical workaround. As for the full Scarf Goth strat in general, I’m building a team to test it out for myself, see just how easy it is to set up. I’ll get back to you guys after sufficient testing.
Actually there is a very efficient way around Goth : Skill Swap. Until now, I thought it was only a gimmicky strategy on Espeon and MDiancie to get rocks on your side of the field, but stuff like Skill Swap Abra can destroy Goth if used correctly, especially if you have you own scarfed Goth (and you get bonus points for beating Goth at its own game). Espeon has a better speed tier and BPass, but Abra can kill itself just fine by switching on just about any damaging move, and Taunt + not Skill swaping Magic Bounce means it can seriously mess up with the opponent's strategy.
Also, it pairs very well with the Goth trapping crew : if you somehow manage to Taunt something without a Sub with one of the Goth (which is very to do with BPass support and Skill Swap), you can KO 4 of you mons at zero opportunity cost.
Anyway, an evolution line clause might be a good idea : Trick itself is just fine and prevents the meta from becoming a stupid "who belly drums first" game, and so is trapping in my experience, and I wouldn't want either to be banned (and banning Trick + Scarf is a complex ban).
Also, it pairs very well with the Goth trapping crew : if you somehow manage to Taunt something without a Sub with one of the Goth (which is very to do with BPass support and Skill Swap), you can KO 4 of you mons at zero opportunity cost.
Anyway, an evolution line clause might be a good idea : Trick itself is just fine and prevents the meta from becoming a stupid "who belly drums first" game, and so is trapping in my experience, and I wouldn't want either to be banned (and banning Trick + Scarf is a complex ban).
I am wondering why Mega Gengar is ranked 'DoNotUse'. I've used it a lot and found it not bad on the ladder. Its advantages over Gothitelle are a higher speed, immunity to trick, and most importantly, access to curse. Those seem not to be that worthless. Especially when the opponent is not weak to shadow tag, fast curse makes it still useful.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-759282308
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-758350880
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-758318863
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-759282308
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-758350880
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-758318863
Since everyone is sharing their teams I guess I should share mine. This is what I've made after seeing samples from pokepaste and also seeing sets. This is the complete team and while it can appear to be pretty standard, it’s still quite effective.
Bad Omen (Meowth-Alola) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rattled
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Taunt
- Snatch
- Substitute
I forget the user that talked about A-Meowth but thank you! I’ve been having too many troubles with Mega Absol and with proper prediction, you can Magic Bounce a Parting Shot to Mega Absol which forcefully switches it out. Parting Shot also builds momentum and can allow you to switch out on Goth’s Shadow Tag. It also has Snatch to grab those BDs, Taunt for disruption and of course Sub. This can be used as a possible lead if you don’t want to start with Smeargle.
Doggy Style Death (Comfey) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Floral Healing
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
- Substitute
Yeah, I’m still in love with Comfey. Priority healing is a boon to heal up an opposing Accelgor, Deoxys Speed, etc. It gets Magic Coat to stop phazers and Taunt to create some struggle heal shenanigans. It can combo with A-Meowth as it gives a fast Taunt and then switches out so you can now spam Floral Healing.
Lennie (Slowpoke) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Hail
- Magic Coat
Standard Oblivious BD user really. Belly Drum of course to drop that health, Magic Coat again for disruption, Substitute to prevent Heal Pulse from stopping this mon, and Hail as a way for Slowpoke to die in case it’s item gets knocked off.
Just Kill Me (Smeargle) @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Whirlwind
- Spore
- Switcheroo
What kind of team doesn’t have Smeargle? This set can be used as a lead over A-Meowth. It has Spore to delay Toxic Orb’s activation and to just simply stop some killing. It can lead off with a Switcheroo Pecha to remove your opponents item and you all know what Trick/Switcheroo does. Whirlwind as an option for phazing and of course what kind of Smeargle doesn’t have Mind Blown?
Struggle On Me (Abra) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Substitute
- Knock Off
Don’t want to use your Comfey or it’s already dead? Try Abra instead! This set will still make the opponent struggle at a price! It also punishes Knock Off users given that it’s going to die to it. You can still bring it in if it’s not taking a hit and it’s still nice to use. Thunder Wave for fun paralysis scenarios, Encore to piss off your opponent even more, Knock Off since this mons attack stat is equivalent to a gentle breeze, and sub just in case if it needs to stop Trick.
Eat Tide Pods (Poliwag) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Substitute
- Protect
Standard Damp BD user really. Stopping Smeargle is always fun and this mon has a surprisingly good speed tier. Encore is used as disruption as always and Protect is as a precautionary measure for blocking any struggling or attacks.
Hope you all like the team and I’m still going to express how much I love this tier. Love the effort that you’ve guys put into all of it. You’ve made this a very enjoyable experience!
Bad Omen (Meowth-Alola) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Rattled
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Parting Shot
- Taunt
- Snatch
- Substitute
I forget the user that talked about A-Meowth but thank you! I’ve been having too many troubles with Mega Absol and with proper prediction, you can Magic Bounce a Parting Shot to Mega Absol which forcefully switches it out. Parting Shot also builds momentum and can allow you to switch out on Goth’s Shadow Tag. It also has Snatch to grab those BDs, Taunt for disruption and of course Sub. This can be used as a possible lead if you don’t want to start with Smeargle.
Doggy Style Death (Comfey) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Triage
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Floral Healing
- Magic Coat
- Taunt
- Substitute
Yeah, I’m still in love with Comfey. Priority healing is a boon to heal up an opposing Accelgor, Deoxys Speed, etc. It gets Magic Coat to stop phazers and Taunt to create some struggle heal shenanigans. It can combo with A-Meowth as it gives a fast Taunt and then switches out so you can now spam Floral Healing.
Lennie (Slowpoke) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Hail
- Magic Coat
Standard Oblivious BD user really. Belly Drum of course to drop that health, Magic Coat again for disruption, Substitute to prevent Heal Pulse from stopping this mon, and Hail as a way for Slowpoke to die in case it’s item gets knocked off.
Just Kill Me (Smeargle) @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Mind Blown
- Whirlwind
- Spore
- Switcheroo
What kind of team doesn’t have Smeargle? This set can be used as a lead over A-Meowth. It has Spore to delay Toxic Orb’s activation and to just simply stop some killing. It can lead off with a Switcheroo Pecha to remove your opponents item and you all know what Trick/Switcheroo does. Whirlwind as an option for phazing and of course what kind of Smeargle doesn’t have Mind Blown?
Struggle On Me (Abra) @ Black Sludge
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Thunder Wave
- Encore
- Substitute
- Knock Off
Don’t want to use your Comfey or it’s already dead? Try Abra instead! This set will still make the opponent struggle at a price! It also punishes Knock Off users given that it’s going to die to it. You can still bring it in if it’s not taking a hit and it’s still nice to use. Thunder Wave for fun paralysis scenarios, Encore to piss off your opponent even more, Knock Off since this mons attack stat is equivalent to a gentle breeze, and sub just in case if it needs to stop Trick.
Eat Tide Pods (Poliwag) @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Belly Drum
- Encore
- Substitute
- Protect
Standard Damp BD user really. Stopping Smeargle is always fun and this mon has a surprisingly good speed tier. Encore is used as disruption as always and Protect is as a precautionary measure for blocking any struggling or attacks.
Hope you all like the team and I’m still going to express how much I love this tier. Love the effort that you’ve guys put into all of it. You’ve made this a very enjoyable experience!
Last edited:
A tip for all Sub-Belly Drum users--set the IVs/EVs so their HP is divisible by 8, then give them Black Sludge so the Sub-Drum sequence kills them in 2 turns instead of 3.
BackAtYouBro, I noticed that your IVs aren't completely optimized to drop defences and offences.
Also, make Smeargle Jolly so its Mind Blown truly hits like a wet noodle.
BackAtYouBro, I noticed that your IVs aren't completely optimized to drop defences and offences.
Also, make Smeargle Jolly so its Mind Blown truly hits like a wet noodle.
Ok thanks for the tip Lectrys. I never thought I’d ever have to set IVs lol but thanks for your help. I’ll handle the math.
With Trick Scarf Goth, that speed difference isn't very impressive (377 versus 394), plus it can easily cripple enemies that are slower (I'm personally working on a Speed Tiers List so we don't have to speculate on this, hopefully it'll be done at minimum next week). Additionally, Goth generally has a more usable movepool, which *does* give it a better matchup against Prankster/faster Taunts, so even if it is outsped, it can handle it with a Magic Coat. It also doesn't help Mega Gengar's case that it is slightly stronger physically, which kinda ruins it against faster Taunts. The final nail in the coffin is that it has to use Curse to kill itself, since that means 2 things: it is taken advantage of by Baton Pass, and it takes 2 uses to die. I don't see any real niche it has over the Goth line.
Even so, I think Gengar-Mega could be ranked. Sure, a team has to be built around it, but I've actually lost because of it once, only because it messes with the usual speed tiers of Belly Drum mons vs Shadow Tag users. It can also kill itself kind of reliably, unlike scarf Gothitelle. I'm not opposed to actually ranking it.
I think Mega Gengar should be considered viable given that somebody seemingly has reached the ladder top 5 with a team built around it. Although Gothitelle is generally better and more splashable, Curse, Pain Split and other factors seem to give Gengar a meaningful niche.
Curse is generally a double-eged sword because the opponent can just choose to switch in a fresh Pokemon, especially one with Baton Pass, to aborb it, and hence take potentially greater passive damage over time than the user does to itself, while denying the Curse user additional chances to recast it. However, Shadow Tag gives Mega Gengar a lot more control over the situation, often enabling the Gengar player to reliably cast it on Pokemon that will already die next turn regardless due to passive damage, perish, etc. The instantaneous self-damage also makes it a good way to end a game. Accelgor, some Prankster/Scarf users with BP or other ghosts/Shadow Tag users can pull out and exploit its Curse - that's a good number of exceptions, but it's still usable.
Similarly, Shadow Tag has great synergy with Pain Split and Knock Off, often enabling Mega Gengar to prevent its target from switching out to counter-fodder, and making these moves considerably better than they would usually be.
Pros of each...
Gothitelle:-
* More flexibility and unpredictability: can run a self-damaging item to make death more reliable, Choice Scarf to reach similar speed to Mega Gengar and severely cripple opponents, or some other trickable item like Pecha Berry.
* Heal Pulse generates new HP, potentially enabling Goth to keep trapped opponents alive almost indefinitely, and is very safe if you have sub up or you know the opponent can't have Magic Coat (don't have to worry about complex relative HP calculations like with Pain Split).
* Shadow Tag is active instantanously, allowing Goth to immediately trap on a free switch-in, whereas Gengar's opponent gets a window to switch out if it hasn't Mega evolved yet.
* Access to Magic Coat to defend against Taunt and most paralysis, while Gengar is very weak to Taunt and has to consider running Snore (however, being choice-locked into MC is dangerous).
* Benefits from Toxic Spikes if you can set them up, while Gengar destroys them.
* Can be run alongside Mega Absol as it doesn't take up the Mega slot.
Mega Gengar:-
* Curse is an independent self-killing method that doesn't care about Sub, Bounce or Protect (possible 2 turn KO, although it usually has to waste turns switching without taking passive damage). Can't become stranded if there are no viable Trick targets left.
* Has a high speed without being choice-locked.
* A relatively weak Knock Off can be used to cripple multiple opponents, and Gengar doesn't care about incoming item denial moves (unfortunately, it will still OHKO some NFEs that Goth could disable with Trick). Can be considered as a lead, although Accelgor is one of its main counters.
* Pain Split can be better than Heal Pulse in some circumstances as it hurts you as well, and isn't bounceable.
* Ghost typing prevents it from being counter-trapped by Skill Swap users. In particular, it doesn't risk becoming hazard setup fodder for Espeon + Dugtrio.
* Good against Ditto as it turns Black Sludge into a passive recovery item, while Sticky Barb can be Knocked Off.
You could also run some cancer team with full Goth family, Mega Gengar and Dugtrio...
Curse is generally a double-eged sword because the opponent can just choose to switch in a fresh Pokemon, especially one with Baton Pass, to aborb it, and hence take potentially greater passive damage over time than the user does to itself, while denying the Curse user additional chances to recast it. However, Shadow Tag gives Mega Gengar a lot more control over the situation, often enabling the Gengar player to reliably cast it on Pokemon that will already die next turn regardless due to passive damage, perish, etc. The instantaneous self-damage also makes it a good way to end a game. Accelgor, some Prankster/Scarf users with BP or other ghosts/Shadow Tag users can pull out and exploit its Curse - that's a good number of exceptions, but it's still usable.
Similarly, Shadow Tag has great synergy with Pain Split and Knock Off, often enabling Mega Gengar to prevent its target from switching out to counter-fodder, and making these moves considerably better than they would usually be.
Pros of each...
Gothitelle:-
* More flexibility and unpredictability: can run a self-damaging item to make death more reliable, Choice Scarf to reach similar speed to Mega Gengar and severely cripple opponents, or some other trickable item like Pecha Berry.
* Heal Pulse generates new HP, potentially enabling Goth to keep trapped opponents alive almost indefinitely, and is very safe if you have sub up or you know the opponent can't have Magic Coat (don't have to worry about complex relative HP calculations like with Pain Split).
* Shadow Tag is active instantanously, allowing Goth to immediately trap on a free switch-in, whereas Gengar's opponent gets a window to switch out if it hasn't Mega evolved yet.
* Access to Magic Coat to defend against Taunt and most paralysis, while Gengar is very weak to Taunt and has to consider running Snore (however, being choice-locked into MC is dangerous).
* Benefits from Toxic Spikes if you can set them up, while Gengar destroys them.
* Can be run alongside Mega Absol as it doesn't take up the Mega slot.
Mega Gengar:-
* Curse is an independent self-killing method that doesn't care about Sub, Bounce or Protect (possible 2 turn KO, although it usually has to waste turns switching without taking passive damage). Can't become stranded if there are no viable Trick targets left.
* Has a high speed without being choice-locked.
* A relatively weak Knock Off can be used to cripple multiple opponents, and Gengar doesn't care about incoming item denial moves (unfortunately, it will still OHKO some NFEs that Goth could disable with Trick). Can be considered as a lead, although Accelgor is one of its main counters.
* Pain Split can be better than Heal Pulse in some circumstances as it hurts you as well, and isn't bounceable.
* Ghost typing prevents it from being counter-trapped by Skill Swap users. In particular, it doesn't risk becoming hazard setup fodder for Espeon + Dugtrio.
* Good against Ditto as it turns Black Sludge into a passive recovery item, while Sticky Barb can be Knocked Off.
You could also run some cancer team with full Goth family, Mega Gengar and Dugtrio...
Last edited:
I haven't seen much use of Jellicent and Lati@s in this metagame, but I think they are pretty solid options. I've had some success with them. Jellicent's Damp is a great block to Smeargle/Mind Blown and it can learn Pain Split, which makes up for its just-ok speed. Lati@s is faster than much of the metagame for a quick Heal Pulse, Roar, and Thunder Wave. Here are the sets I'm using
Jellicent @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Magic Coat
Latias @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Pulse
- Roar
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
Jellicent @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Pain Split
- Magic Coat
Latias @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Heal Pulse
- Roar
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave
Gengar-Mega @ Gengarite
Ability: Shadow Tag
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Curse
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam
Made a gimmick using knock off and 6 trappers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760944697
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760956086
Ability: Shadow Tag
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Curse
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Dazzling Gleam
Made a gimmick using knock off and 6 trappers.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760944697
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760956086
I'd like to nominate Malamar/Inkay for a B+ ranking, in light of the fact that they are superb Perish Song recipients. They are the only viable users of Suction Cups, meaning they can't be roared or whirlwinded away. Unlike Cradily and Octillery, these squids have a movepool that enables them to cause some disruption before they perish, with Switcheroo, Snatch, Hypnosis, Taunt, and Substitute (as well as the lesser-used Knock Off, Fling, Thief, Torment, and Embargo). This mainly matters if you can perish pass to them without also having the opponent on the timer (either by using Whirlwind Smeargle or by using Perish Song on something that's about to die). Malamar is probably the better of the two because it can outspeed non-scarf Gothitelle, but since their purpose is to be used as recipients, you can get away with its adorable pre-evo. In situations where things go south and you can't send them a Perish Song (read: someone kills your PerishPass user), they can eventually kill themselves through the above moves and Black Sludge, although they aren't particularly efficient at it. Their biggest problem (outside of not doing much without PerishPass) is that they are outsped by a lot of substitute users, so they're often unable to do as much disruption as they'd like to before perishing. But if you are looking for someone to securely pass to, look no further.
I also think Paras deserves to be ranked somewhere as well. Probably the same as Sunkern (B), as it does basically the same thing (quickly fainting to Sun+Substitute+Black Sludge or Mind Blown if you can predict) but with the advantage of having Spore. Still not too hard to work around, but of the two, I'd say there've been more times when I've been inconvenienced by a Paras.
Meanwhile, I have never seen an Electrode, Noivern, or Happiny anywhere on the ladder. Can someone explain what advantages they have that earn them a ranking? Thanks!
I also think Paras deserves to be ranked somewhere as well. Probably the same as Sunkern (B), as it does basically the same thing (quickly fainting to Sun+Substitute+Black Sludge or Mind Blown if you can predict) but with the advantage of having Spore. Still not too hard to work around, but of the two, I'd say there've been more times when I've been inconvenienced by a Paras.
Meanwhile, I have never seen an Electrode, Noivern, or Happiny anywhere on the ladder. Can someone explain what advantages they have that earn them a ranking? Thanks!
Last edited:
Just theorimoning as I have never used nor seen any of them :
- Electrode has a blazing fast Taunt (as well as Sub). It also gets Magic Coat for whatever reason (and Telekinesis and Teleport, it's really weird). I guess Thunder Wave from 150 base speed is also nice, and Electrode is immune to paralysis itself. You can probably use Torment or Thief as filler moves, too. Basically it works like Pransker users, except it lacks Trick but it immune to para and has MCoat. It does have some niche over Sableye or Cottonee, so it's usable I guess. Also it's not blocked by Dark types.
- Noivern : usual disruption movepool, with Taunt, Snatch and Switcheroo. Also Defog but it's probably not a good user of it (you would have to forgo one disruption move or Sub). It would be op if Infiltrator was legal but right now it's outclassed by Purrloin (lacks Defog but has Prankster). Yeah Noivern's Taunt isn't blocked by Dark types, but it actually loses 1vs1 to every relevant Dark type.
- Happiny is just Struggle fodder and looks frankly horrible. Its movepool consists of Thunder Wave, Sub, Hail, Protect and Fling. I have no idea why it is even ranked, considering Abra, Pichu and Diglett work just fine as Struggle fodder and can actually do something before dying.
- Electrode has a blazing fast Taunt (as well as Sub). It also gets Magic Coat for whatever reason (and Telekinesis and Teleport, it's really weird). I guess Thunder Wave from 150 base speed is also nice, and Electrode is immune to paralysis itself. You can probably use Torment or Thief as filler moves, too. Basically it works like Pransker users, except it lacks Trick but it immune to para and has MCoat. It does have some niche over Sableye or Cottonee, so it's usable I guess. Also it's not blocked by Dark types.
- Noivern : usual disruption movepool, with Taunt, Snatch and Switcheroo. Also Defog but it's probably not a good user of it (you would have to forgo one disruption move or Sub). It would be op if Infiltrator was legal but right now it's outclassed by Purrloin (lacks Defog but has Prankster). Yeah Noivern's Taunt isn't blocked by Dark types, but it actually loses 1vs1 to every relevant Dark type.
- Happiny is just Struggle fodder and looks frankly horrible. Its movepool consists of Thunder Wave, Sub, Hail, Protect and Fling. I have no idea why it is even ranked, considering Abra, Pichu and Diglett work just fine as Struggle fodder and can actually do something before dying.
I don’t know why Hapinny can even be considered struggle fodder though when it comes from the fat sister line. Even though it’s a baby mon, it still has to have some considerable bulk that makes it take hits rather then making it faint. Happiny should honestly be unranked. It just doesn’t have any sort of niche over other struggle mons and it does more harm than good.
Don't underestimate the pityfulness of base 5 Def. To give you an idea, it reaches a friggin' 13 Def at level 100... Happiny is actually frailer than Abra :
0- Atk Poliwag Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Happiny: 336-396 (108.3 - 127.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
0- Atk Poliwag Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Pichu: 141-167 (94 - 111.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Poliwag Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Abra: 141-167 (88.1 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
0- Atk Poliwag Struggle vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Diglett: 90-106 (69.2 - 81.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(everything has 0 IV everywhere)
Actually Happiny has a good chance of dying from Struggle coming from anything over 45 (Gothorita) base Atk, which is pretty impressive.
Still, it's pretty much garbage even on dedicated Shadow Tag + Taunt teams.
Calcs for Mind Blown :
0- SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Happiny: 33-39 (10.6 - 12.5%) -- possible 8HKO
0- SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Pichu: 58-69 (38.6 - 46%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0- SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Abra: 38-45 (23.7 - 28.1%) -- 88.9% chance to 4HKO
0- SpA Smeargle Mind Blown vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Diglett: 46-55 (35.3 - 42.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
Diglett has Arena Trap but is garbage otherwise as it's slower than relevant Magic Bouncers and its movepool is kinda depressing (it has hm... Attract, I guess ?). Pichu has Nuzzle but it's bad because you can see it coming from miles away (unlike Smeargle), and Encore which is nice but not incredible. Abra on the other hand has a very good movepool, with Trick, Magic Coat, Skill Swap, Encore, Torment, Knock-Off, Snatch, Thief, Embargo. It's also the only Struggle fodder to get Taunt, meaning it can actively kill itself by forcing the opponent to struggle, and 2 Mind Blown + Sub + Black Sludge is enough to KO yourself. And unlike the others, it's not completely Scarf Goth fodder.
tl;dr : Abra is very good, the rest is garbage.
I guess one of the other thoughts behind Happiny may have been that with the lowest(?) base attack in the game, it can soak taunt to damage itself with struggle recoil without endangering opposing struggle fodder. But yeah, it seems very outdated.
Pichu has access to Static Fake Out to be a kinda almost usable lead, I guess.
...you have to consider that these guys came up in a meta where setting Metronome and praying to get Explosion was considered a viable use of a moveslot.
Noivern has an awkward speed tier that holds it back as a Switcheroo user (time to join Scarf meta?) but it does have one nice quality in Frisk, which makes it easier to determine whether it is worth attemping the Trick.
---
So Showdown recently added a way to create temporary groupchat rooms that can operate tours, etc. There is an 'OM Mashups' for crossover tours, and yesterday we had some Suicide Cup spin-off tours like Almost Any Ability SC and Balanced Hackmons SC. My ultimate perishpass team in BH SC crashed out in round 1 after facing a team of six Suction Cups users (lol) but in SC AAA a clutch Poison Heal Skill Swap Mewtwo somehow pulled me through.
AAA SC replays:-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760968945
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760974557
Pichu has access to Static Fake Out to be a kinda almost usable lead, I guess.
...you have to consider that these guys came up in a meta where setting Metronome and praying to get Explosion was considered a viable use of a moveslot.
Noivern has an awkward speed tier that holds it back as a Switcheroo user (time to join Scarf meta?) but it does have one nice quality in Frisk, which makes it easier to determine whether it is worth attemping the Trick.
---
So Showdown recently added a way to create temporary groupchat rooms that can operate tours, etc. There is an 'OM Mashups' for crossover tours, and yesterday we had some Suicide Cup spin-off tours like Almost Any Ability SC and Balanced Hackmons SC. My ultimate perishpass team in BH SC crashed out in round 1 after facing a team of six Suction Cups users (lol) but in SC AAA a clutch Poison Heal Skill Swap Mewtwo somehow pulled me through.
AAA SC replays:-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760968945
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-760974557
It has come to my attention that the use of multiple Pokemon from the same evolutionary line can be quite unhealthy, or very stale, and has been deemed as such by most of the community. In my view, Suicide Cup is meant to represent the creative spirit of the Other Metagame community. I'd like to introduce Suicide Cup's new clause: Family Clause, where you can only use one Pokemon from their respective evolutionary line. Oblivious + Belly Drum teams will be no more (I'm looking at you volcanionisgood.) Also, I'm sure many of you are VERY excited that the Shadow Tag + Trick archetype is going to be heavily nerfed,
But that's not all! We've had discussions regarding the unhealthiness of Choice Trick + Switcheroo. One of the main offenders was Gothitelle, as it's able to trap the opposition and utterly debilitate them. Trick and Switcheroo aren't a joke. They're dangerous enough to necessitate dramatic countermeasures, such as the use of Accelgor, Prankster Pokemon and Pokemon that are able to KO themselves without the use of an item. Of course, the solution isn't to ban Trick / Switcheroo, and it definitely isn't to ban Gothitelle.
The most volatile part about Trick / Switcheroo is the possibility that the opponent may be using a Choice Scarf. This is often impossible to know before a turn with the opponent in the field has passed, but can be much easier to deal with once it's revealed. The reason why this is unhealthy is because, when it comes to Pokemon lacking Prankster, your counterplay to Trick + Choice Scarf is the assumption that your opponent is using it. If you predict wrongly, the opposition might just put you at a disadvantage by using Substitute or something else. However, I'm pleased to say that there's good news.
Three out of four Suicide Cup Council members have agreed to ban Choice Scarf. Bear in mind that Choice + Trick will still be very much alive (I can see the rise in Sticky Webs + Choice Band and Trick.) The metagame is going to become so much more balanced with these alterations. You won't frequently have these unhealthy 50 / 50 situations. This change is going to award players that appreciate consistency. I know most of you will find these changes terrific. Of course, for some of us, there's going to be an adaptation period. In time, you'll notice that most of the metagame's underlying problems will be fixed. Thank you, everyone! May the warmth, vigor and liveliness of the Suicide Cup community radiate everlasting!
The Immortal, just tagging you so you can see this.
But that's not all! We've had discussions regarding the unhealthiness of Choice Trick + Switcheroo. One of the main offenders was Gothitelle, as it's able to trap the opposition and utterly debilitate them. Trick and Switcheroo aren't a joke. They're dangerous enough to necessitate dramatic countermeasures, such as the use of Accelgor, Prankster Pokemon and Pokemon that are able to KO themselves without the use of an item. Of course, the solution isn't to ban Trick / Switcheroo, and it definitely isn't to ban Gothitelle.
The most volatile part about Trick / Switcheroo is the possibility that the opponent may be using a Choice Scarf. This is often impossible to know before a turn with the opponent in the field has passed, but can be much easier to deal with once it's revealed. The reason why this is unhealthy is because, when it comes to Pokemon lacking Prankster, your counterplay to Trick + Choice Scarf is the assumption that your opponent is using it. If you predict wrongly, the opposition might just put you at a disadvantage by using Substitute or something else. However, I'm pleased to say that there's good news.
Three out of four Suicide Cup Council members have agreed to ban Choice Scarf. Bear in mind that Choice + Trick will still be very much alive (I can see the rise in Sticky Webs + Choice Band and Trick.) The metagame is going to become so much more balanced with these alterations. You won't frequently have these unhealthy 50 / 50 situations. This change is going to award players that appreciate consistency. I know most of you will find these changes terrific. Of course, for some of us, there's going to be an adaptation period. In time, you'll notice that most of the metagame's underlying problems will be fixed. Thank you, everyone! May the warmth, vigor and liveliness of the Suicide Cup community radiate everlasting!
The Immortal, just tagging you so you can see this.
Last edited:
[21:37:27] Adrian Marin BH: I want you to post it in the thread first noc
I worked on this for around a half a day or something, so it doesn't have webs count, so that'll come later (if I ever feel like calcing that shit...), but this should be a good start for new people, and its got some interesting things for new players: for instance, Smeargle's speed tier isn't that good actually, only a Tier 4, which surprised me. I do want to make one distinction: the first tier is dedicated to Prankster users, so it may not be as reliable as that, but it should work for now. The last thing to discuss is that I only ranked that which is on the tier list, minus MBanette and MDiancie. This is simply because people seem to think that Mega Gengar deserves to be outside the Do Not Use rank, so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. This should help you out in teambuilding, but I'll update it ASAP.
Tier 1: Prankster
Whimsicott: 364
Liepard: 342
Murkrow: 309
Purrloin, Cottonee: 254
Sableye: 218
Tier 2: Fastest-350
Deoxys-S: 504
Electrode: 438
Accelgor: 427
Mewtwo: 394
Mega Gengar: 394
Mightyena: 393 [Quick Feet]
Ribombee: 381
Noivern: 379
Dugtrio: 372
Hawlucha: 368
Salazzle: 366
Absol-Mega: 361
Espeon, Jumpluff, Latias: 350
Tier 3: 349-300
Mismagius, Zoroark: 339
: Charizard, Comfey, Celebi, Ninetales: 328
: Darmanitan, Jynx, Minun: 317
Abra, Poliwag: 306
Tier 4: 299-200
Gardevoir, Gastly: 284
Smeargle: 273
Decidueye: 262
Gothitelle, Walrein,Smoochum: 251
Jellicent, Swampert: 240
Gothorita: 229
Lickilicky: 218
Gothita, Sealeo, Marowak-A: 207
Tier 5: 199-Slowest
Gulpin: 196
Lickitung, Slowking, Slowbro, Sunkern, Happiny: 174
Slowpoke: 141
Tier 2: Fastest-350
Tier 3: 349-300
Tier 4: 299-200
Tier 5: 199-Slowest
I worked on this for around a half a day or something, so it doesn't have webs count, so that'll come later (if I ever feel like calcing that shit...), but this should be a good start for new people, and its got some interesting things for new players: for instance, Smeargle's speed tier isn't that good actually, only a Tier 4, which surprised me. I do want to make one distinction: the first tier is dedicated to Prankster users, so it may not be as reliable as that, but it should work for now. The last thing to discuss is that I only ranked that which is on the tier list, minus MBanette and MDiancie. This is simply because people seem to think that Mega Gengar deserves to be outside the Do Not Use rank, so I gave it the benefit of the doubt. This should help you out in teambuilding, but I'll update it ASAP.
Well, you made me test it for myself. What I found was that the family clause and the scarf ban weren't implemented, but Magic Guard IS banned, so I don't know what's going on for you.
The new clauses and changes are good for the health of this meta. Being unable to Trick Choice Scarf makes Gothitelle a lot more balanced. It's still possible to be screwed over but the conditions in which it can happen are a lot less common now as the number of mons slower than a non-scarf Gothitelle is a lot lower. The family clause is neat for encouraging creativity but you know people are just gonna use Gothitelle+Dugtrio+Trapinch+Wynaut to trap things now lol. That's a good thing!
Anyway here's a post about lesser used mons + gimmick strats I've tried using lately, hope you enjoy.
Toxicroak is kinda cool imo, being one of a few pokemon with Sunny Day+Dry Skin/Solar Power. Although it doesn't have Belly Drum like Charizard it does have Taunt and Snatch, and while it isn't fast it at least beats Smeargle which is a good milestone. Basically, it trades Belly Drum for a better capability for disruption, able to disrupt opposing Belly Drummers while putting a stop to the shenanigans of slower mons like Gothitelle and Smeargle. Pretty cool mon tbh. It's not too great since it's kinda slow but it's definitely decent.
Wonder Skin is a pretty neat ability, turning the accuracy of status moves with accuracy checks used against the Pokemon to 50%. This basically gives a 50% chance of protection against Taunt, Encore, Spore, Thunder Wave, Trick, Switcheroo, and others. There are a few Wonder Skin users and they each have different good moves, like Delcatty getting Baton Pass and Copycat (which would be a really good move if it wasn't bugged and actually copied Mind Blown's recoil damage) and Venomoth getting Baton Pass and status moves + Tailwind, Bruxish getting Taunt and Snatch to play like Salazzle, and Sigilyph getting... some other stuff. Although these guys have decent movepools and abilities it's still hard to justify using them over some of the competition since their ability is a little less consistent than Oblivious or Magic Bounce, but maybe someone better than me can find a good use for them.
Xatu is pretty cool. There are a couple reasons to use it over Espeon, first being that you can escape from Dugtrio, preventing any sort of self-rocks shenanigans from going on. The other is Tailwind, which you can usually get up on the last turn before you die. This makes Xatu a pretty neat Perish Song recipient too, you can get passed to without being phased and set up Tailwind to support whatever you bring in next. Besides that it gets Thunder Wave which is decent, and can at least debilitate the foe a bit unlike Espeon which just sits around until it dies.
You might be wondering: why use this guy over Accelgor or Espeon or any of the other Subpassers? Well the main reason is because Durant gets absolutely demolished by Mind Blown, taking 86.7% minimum from it. This lets you get ahead pretty easily if you switch into Smeargle as you will usually die immediately after Black Sludge damage. Besides that, Durant can Sub Pass with Thunder Wave and Entrainment as filler.
Here's a funny strat you can do: Trick someone an Eject Button and then you can phase them out at will. If their Toxic Orb has already activated and poisoned them, then you Skill Swap Natural Cure onto them, then phaze them out by attacking them with Round, which can completely screw them over even if their Toxic Orb has already activated and they are behind a Sub. Alternately, you can give them a Mago Berry and switch out to something else to phaze them out. Starmie, Celebi, and Trevenant can do this strat, but Trevenant is too slow to ever get a Trick off and Starmie has nothing to kill itself with in case it fails. You use this over Pecha Trick because it's cooler.
Last thing is Magician, which is a cool ability that lets a Pokemon steal an item from a foe it hits with an attack. I know Hoopa was mentioned earlier as being able to bypass protection with Hyperspace Hole but the best move that can be used with Magician is Round, which is a move all the Magician mons get. Being a sound move it bypasses Substitutes, letting you steal an item from behind the sub of a mon faster than you. Of the Magician mons Hoopa seems mostly the best as it has the best movepool and also has Fling meaning it can start the battle with a Toxic Orb and is not dead weight when trying to kill self and can escape from Gothitelle. Hoopa-U can be used too as it gets Prankster immunity and the ability to outspeed Smeargle. The main problem with these mons is that they're too damn strong and can be outplayed by going to something immune to item switching, but they can be cool given the right circumstances.
Anyway here's a post about lesser used mons + gimmick strats I've tried using lately, hope you enjoy.
Toxicroak is kinda cool imo, being one of a few pokemon with Sunny Day+Dry Skin/Solar Power. Although it doesn't have Belly Drum like Charizard it does have Taunt and Snatch, and while it isn't fast it at least beats Smeargle which is a good milestone. Basically, it trades Belly Drum for a better capability for disruption, able to disrupt opposing Belly Drummers while putting a stop to the shenanigans of slower mons like Gothitelle and Smeargle. Pretty cool mon tbh. It's not too great since it's kinda slow but it's definitely decent.
Wonder Skin is a pretty neat ability, turning the accuracy of status moves with accuracy checks used against the Pokemon to 50%. This basically gives a 50% chance of protection against Taunt, Encore, Spore, Thunder Wave, Trick, Switcheroo, and others. There are a few Wonder Skin users and they each have different good moves, like Delcatty getting Baton Pass and Copycat (which would be a really good move if it wasn't bugged and actually copied Mind Blown's recoil damage) and Venomoth getting Baton Pass and status moves + Tailwind, Bruxish getting Taunt and Snatch to play like Salazzle, and Sigilyph getting... some other stuff. Although these guys have decent movepools and abilities it's still hard to justify using them over some of the competition since their ability is a little less consistent than Oblivious or Magic Bounce, but maybe someone better than me can find a good use for them.
Xatu is pretty cool. There are a couple reasons to use it over Espeon, first being that you can escape from Dugtrio, preventing any sort of self-rocks shenanigans from going on. The other is Tailwind, which you can usually get up on the last turn before you die. This makes Xatu a pretty neat Perish Song recipient too, you can get passed to without being phased and set up Tailwind to support whatever you bring in next. Besides that it gets Thunder Wave which is decent, and can at least debilitate the foe a bit unlike Espeon which just sits around until it dies.
You might be wondering: why use this guy over Accelgor or Espeon or any of the other Subpassers? Well the main reason is because Durant gets absolutely demolished by Mind Blown, taking 86.7% minimum from it. This lets you get ahead pretty easily if you switch into Smeargle as you will usually die immediately after Black Sludge damage. Besides that, Durant can Sub Pass with Thunder Wave and Entrainment as filler.
Here's a funny strat you can do: Trick someone an Eject Button and then you can phase them out at will. If their Toxic Orb has already activated and poisoned them, then you Skill Swap Natural Cure onto them, then phaze them out by attacking them with Round, which can completely screw them over even if their Toxic Orb has already activated and they are behind a Sub. Alternately, you can give them a Mago Berry and switch out to something else to phaze them out. Starmie, Celebi, and Trevenant can do this strat, but Trevenant is too slow to ever get a Trick off and Starmie has nothing to kill itself with in case it fails. You use this over Pecha Trick because it's cooler.
Last thing is Magician, which is a cool ability that lets a Pokemon steal an item from a foe it hits with an attack. I know Hoopa was mentioned earlier as being able to bypass protection with Hyperspace Hole but the best move that can be used with Magician is Round, which is a move all the Magician mons get. Being a sound move it bypasses Substitutes, letting you steal an item from behind the sub of a mon faster than you. Of the Magician mons Hoopa seems mostly the best as it has the best movepool and also has Fling meaning it can start the battle with a Toxic Orb and is not dead weight when trying to kill self and can escape from Gothitelle. Hoopa-U can be used too as it gets Prankster immunity and the ability to outspeed Smeargle. The main problem with these mons is that they're too damn strong and can be outplayed by going to something immune to item switching, but they can be cool given the right circumstances.
Last edited:
Okay, Suicide Cup has gotten pretty dead. I think its partly because the changes aren't yet implemented, but maybe we can discuss a little bit more?
The last question I have is are you using Jolly for that calc? I had that question, but I got off my lazy ass and calced it. He did, I just wish he was more up front about it.
Edit: I just realized the changes were JUST IMPLEMENTED! Balanced meta, here we come!
A lot of stuff to unload here. Let's break this down individually:The new clauses and changes are good for the health of this meta. Being unable to Trick Choice Scarf makes Gothitelle a lot more balanced. It's still possible to be screwed over but the conditions in which it can happen are a lot less common now as the number of mons slower than a non-scarf Gothitelle is a lot lower. The family clause is neat for encouraging creativity but you know people are just gonna use Gothitelle+Dugtrio+Trapinch+Wynaut to trap things now lol. That's a good thing!
Anyway here's a post about lesser used mons + gimmick strats I've tried using lately, hope you enjoy.
Toxicroak is kinda cool imo, being one of a few pokemon with Sunny Day+Dry Skin/Solar Power. Although it doesn't have Belly Drum like Charizard it does have Taunt and Snatch, and while it isn't fast it at least beats Smeargle which is a good milestone. Basically, it trades Belly Drum for a better capability for disruption, able to disrupt opposing Belly Drummers while putting a stop to the shenanigans of slower mons like Gothitelle and Smeargle. Pretty cool mon tbh. It's not too great since it's kinda slow but it's definitely decent.
Wonder Skin is a pretty neat ability, turning the accuracy of status moves with accuracy checks used against the Pokemon to 50%. This basically gives a 50% chance of protection against Taunt, Encore, Spore, Thunder Wave, Trick, Switcheroo, and others. There are a few Wonder Skin users and they each have different good moves, like Delcatty getting Baton Pass and Copycat (which would be a really good move if it wasn't bugged and actually copied Mind Blown's recoil damage) and Venomoth getting Baton Pass and status moves + Tailwind, Bruxish getting Taunt and Snatch to play like Salazzle, and Sigilyph getting... some other stuff. Although these guys have decent movepools and abilities it's still hard to justify using them over some of the competition since their ability is a little less consistent than Oblivious or Magic Bounce, but maybe someone better than me can find a good use for them.
Xatu is pretty cool. There are a couple reasons to use it over Espeon, first being that you can escape from Dugtrio, preventing any sort of self-rocks shenanigans from going on. The other is Tailwind, which you can usually get up on the last turn before you die. This makes Xatu a pretty neat Perish Song recipient too, you can get passed to without being phased and set up Tailwind to support whatever you bring in next. Besides that it gets Thunder Wave which is decent, and can at least debilitate the foe a bit unlike Espeon which just sits around until it dies.
You might be wondering: why use this guy over Accelgor or Espeon or any of the other Subpassers? Well the main reason is because Durant gets absolutely demolished by Mind Blown, taking 86.7% minimum from it. This lets you get ahead pretty easily if you switch into Smeargle as you will usually die immediately after Black Sludge damage. Besides that, Durant can Sub Pass with Thunder Wave and Entrainment as filler.
Here's a funny strat you can do: Trick someone an Eject Button and then you can phase them out at will. If their Toxic Orb has already activated and poisoned them, then you Skill Swap Natural Cure onto them, then phaze them out by attacking them with Round, which can completely screw them over even if their Toxic Orb has already activated and they are behind a Sub. Alternately, you can give them a Mago Berry and switch out to something else to phaze them out. Starmie, Celebi, and Trevenant can do this strat, but Trevenant is too slow to ever get a Trick off and Starmie has nothing to kill itself with in case it fails. You use this over Pecha Trick because it's cooler.
Last thing is Magician, which is a cool ability that lets a Pokemon steal an item from a foe it hits with an attack. I know Hoopa was mentioned earlier as being able to bypass protection with Hyperspace Hole but the best move that can be used with Magician is Round, which is a move all the Magician mons get. Being a sound move it bypasses Substitutes, letting you steal an item from behind the sub of a mon faster than you. Of the Magician mons Hoopa seems mostly the best as it has the best movepool and also has Fling meaning it can start the battle with a Toxic Orb and is not dead weight when trying to kill self and can escape from Gothitelle. Hoopa-U can be used too as it gets Prankster immunity and the ability to outspeed Smeargle. The main problem with these mons is that they're too damn strong and can be outplayed by going to something immune to item switching, but they can be cool given the right circumstances.
As per the norm, I tried to verify this thing had a niche. It really does. It fuckin' does. It is one of three Pokemon that can use Dry Skin/Solar Power and Snatch, the other two being Croagunk and Mega Houndoom, which both have their own individual issues, with Croagunk being slower and Mega Houndoom requiring an item slot.
Toxicroak is kinda cool imo, being one of a few pokemon with Sunny Day+Dry Skin/Solar Power. Although it doesn't have Belly Drum like Charizard it does have Taunt and Snatch, and while it isn't fast it at least beats Smeargle which is a good milestone. Basically, it trades Belly Drum for a better capability for disruption, able to disrupt opposing Belly Drummers while putting a stop to the shenanigans of slower mons like Gothitelle and Smeargle. Pretty cool mon tbh. It's not too great since it's kinda slow but it's definitely decent.
Oh no, that's going to be so annoying. Maybe this shouldn't have been brought up lol. In all seriousness, this might be a neat little niche that'd be fun to play around with every once in a while. Definitely going to play around with this once the new changes are implemented.
Wonder Skin is a pretty neat ability, turning the accuracy of status moves with accuracy checks used against the Pokemon to 50%. This basically gives a 50% chance of protection against Taunt, Encore, Spore, Thunder Wave, Trick, Switcheroo, and others. There are a few Wonder Skin users and they each have different good moves, like Delcatty getting Baton Pass and Copycat (which would be a really good move if it wasn't bugged and actually copied Mind Blown's recoil damage) and Venomoth getting Baton Pass and status moves + Tailwind, Bruxish getting Taunt and Snatch to play like Salazzle, and Sigilyph getting... some other stuff. Although these guys have decent movepools and abilities it's still hard to justify using them over some of the competition since their ability is a little less consistent than Oblivious or Magic Bounce, but maybe someone better than me can find a good use for them.
The main reason most people don't use Xatu over Espeon is because it can't run Magic Bounce and Baton Pass on the same set, which is the whole reason to run Espeon. However, you do make some valid points, that likely won't affect my teams, since I'm not really a fan of Mega Absol teams.
Xatu is pretty cool. There are a couple reasons to use it over Espeon, first being that you can escape from Dugtrio, preventing any sort of self-rocks shenanigans from going on. The other is Tailwind, which you can usually get up on the last turn before you die. This makes Xatu a pretty neat Perish Song recipient too, you can get passed to without being phased and set up Tailwind to support whatever you bring in next. Besides that it gets Thunder Wave which is decent, and can at least debilitate the foe a bit unlike Espeon which just sits around until it dies.
At this point, just use Paras. Honestly, if you are using Durant, just take my advice: use the other, better SubPassers alongside it.
You might be wondering: why use this guy over Accelgor or Espeon or any of the other Subpassers? Well the main reason is because Durant gets absolutely demolished by Mind Blown, taking 86.7% minimum from it. This lets you get ahead pretty easily if you switch into Smeargle as you will usually die immediately after Black Sludge damage. Besides that, Durant can Sub Pass with Thunder Wave and Entrainment as filler.
No comment, this should just explain itself, great read though.
Here's a funny strat you can do: Trick someone an Eject Button and then you can phase them out at will. If their Toxic Orb has already activated and poisoned them, then you Skill Swap Natural Cure onto them, then phaze them out by attacking them with Round, which can completely screw them over even if their Toxic Orb has already activated and they are behind a Sub. Alternately, you can give them a Mago Berry and switch out to something else to phaze them out. Starmie, Celebi, and Trevenant can do this strat, but Trevenant is too slow to ever get a Trick off and Starmie has nothing to kill itself with in case it fails. You use this over Pecha Trick because it's cooler.
Yeah, Magician is pretty stupid. In fact, when we were doing SCAAA, we ended up saying fuck you to it and banning it. The difference here is that Hoopa is strong enough that it'd likely kill everything in sight trying to pull the strategy off.
Last thing is Magician, which is a cool ability that lets a Pokemon steal an item from a foe it hits with an attack. I know Hoopa was mentioned earlier as being able to bypass protection with Hyperspace Hole but the best move that can be used with Magician is Round, which is a move all the Magician mons get. Being a sound move it bypasses Substitutes, letting you steal an item from behind the sub of a mon faster than you. Of the Magician mons Hoopa seems mostly the best as it has the best movepool and also has Fling meaning it can start the battle with a Toxic Orb and is not dead weight when trying to kill self and can escape from Gothitelle. Hoopa-U can be used too as it gets Prankster immunity and the ability to outspeed Smeargle. The main problem with these mons is that they're too damn strong and can be outplayed by going to something immune to item switching, but they can be cool given the right circumstances.
Edit: I just realized the changes were JUST IMPLEMENTED! Balanced meta, here we come!
Last edited: