Metagame Suicide Cup

[CringeMeta]

Welcome family clause and RIP TrickScarf Goth teams.

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I think it's time for a deep dive into one of the more underused and pleasantly cancerous offensive abilities in Suicide Cup, one that has several users overdue for viability ranking…yes, it's Magician! By combining this ability with certain attacks, you can build item thieves that function even while Taunted and against opponents with Subs up. Eat your heart out, Prankster Trick!

Hoopa

Very challenging to use due to its excessive offensive stats, this mon is nonetheless unmatched in its item manipulation abilities.

Hoopa
Ability: Magician
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA
- Hyperspace Hole / Round
- Fling
- Return / Astonish
- Substitute

(Other good move options include Block, Trick and Magic Coat. Starting without an item is probably easiest, but Hoopa could be given Black Sludge, Pecha/Lum Berry/Leftovers as a Trick soaker or Light Ball to paralyze on Fling. Using Choice Scarf to open with a fast Fling may have been optimal pre-ban <_< )

Magician steals the opponent's item when an attacking move is used. Hyperspace Hole hits the opponent though Sub or even Protect and can't be prevented using Taunt. Together, the two almost guarantee Hoopa steals an opponent's damage item before it can activate, unless that opponent has Dark typing or Sticky Hold, crippling many Pokemon. Round is an option to reduce damage inflicted, but at that point you may as well go for Braixen (see below).

Unfortunately, Hyperspace Hole is a strong (80BP) STAB attack coming off a base 150 special attack, so even with a SpA-lowing nature, it can easily KO neutral NFEs or Psychic-weak targets. However, Hoopa can run minimum happiness Return to steal a predicted fragile switch-in's item while inflicting almost imperceptible damage. Astonish is an option to be able to hit Ghosts on the switch, although this forces you to inflict noticeable damage when Taunted, and Curse means that most Ghosts don't care much about item deprivation.

Finally, Fling is an attack that has almost as incredible synergy with Magician as Hyperspace Hole. Hoopa can use it to dispose of non-damaging items like Mental Herb in order to go hunting for something more useful with HH, or remove an activated Toxic Orb against a sub so that you can starve additional opposing Pokemon (be aware that flinging a Toxic Orb will badly poison an opponent unless blocked by a sub). Absurdly, a direct hit will allow Hoopa to steal an additional item in the same turn that Hoopa removes and destroys its own old one, enabling chained theft and deprivation of Black Sludge users.

Hoopa's underwhelming 70 Speed means that it would appreciate Agility (and Sub) passes from Accelgor in order to be able to use Fling and Return more often, although running multiple attacking moves allows it to care about an outspeeding Taunt much less than most Pokemon. Accelgor also provides a safe switch out against opponents likely to try to trick their stolen item back.

Usage example: Hoopa trolls a Belly Drum HO team:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-757147824

Klefki

Do not use. What a shame that Steel typing makes this mon outclasses when it has two fantastic offensive abilities (Prankster as well) to use and bluff between. It has access to Round and Switcheroo, some other nice stuff like Thunder Wave, and weirdly its typing doesn't prevent damage from Black Sludge. But as thieves need every opportunity they can get to abuse opponents items, not being able to activate Toxic Orb is fatal. Or, rather, non-fatal.

Maybe the best mon in Suicide Cup Steel Monothreat, though? Or a hidden gem in SC Camomons.

Delphox family

Delphox and co have more moderate - although still higher than ideal - special attack. In terms of sub-bypassing attacks, they have access to Round, but also the even better Echoed Voice, with a mere 40BP on its first turn of usage. That said, the danger of being trapped and Taunted into an increasingly strong Echoed Voice almost necessitates running Snore in a second slot.
Unfortunately, this family lacks access to Fling, which generally means no item-cycling, and the risk of permanently absorbing a useless item like Mental Herb on a bad prediction. Delphox and Braixen do have Trick/Switcheroo to alleviate the latter problem somewhat, however, and they aren't as risky to misuse as Hoopa, especially if you have something like Perishpass Smeargle or semi-reliable hazards to rescue them from a bad item.

Interestingly, each Delphox family arguably has some small niche of its own due to stats and move pool differences.

Fennikin generally has the best stats, as its decently bad 40/40 physical bulk makes it into solid Struggle fodder if there isn't a good Magician target, and it has the lowest Special Attack to minimise Echoed Voice damage further (speed doesn't matter as much for this family considering than Echoed Voice works the same regardless of whether the opponent got off a Taunt or Sub first). On the other hand, Fenniken lacks access to some of its evolved forms' useful moves like Switcheroo and Snatch, forcing it to fall back on Magic Coat.

Fennekin
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Echoed Voice
- Snore
- Substitute
- Magic Coat

(Could run a Def-lowering nature.)

If you want to hedge your bets by running Switcheroo, Delphox may be the best option in order to try to outspeed opposing subs, coming at the cost of maximised Voice damage and bulk.

Delphox
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Echoed Voice
- Snore
- Switcheroo
- Substitute

(Switcheroo is better than Trick to avoid common Imprison users.)

Finally, Braixen occupies a middle ground in terms of attack, defence and speed, but retains access to the juiciest parts of the family movepool; if you want to run Snatch in slot 4, Braixen seems like the best option. Not to go all Middle Cup on you but she is likely the overall most viable Delphox family member, and arguably the most robust Magician user in standard SC.

Braixen
Ability: Magician
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 4 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Echoed Voice
- Snore
- Substitute
- Snatch

Usage example: Salazzle gets locked down:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769196730

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And just for fun…

Magician Smeargle in Suicide Cup AAA (quickly banned):-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-762145536
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-762151540

 

[Lectrys]

It's been a fun month!

Here's one of my most successful Suicide Cup teams--hopefully, it's worthy of being a sample team.

Sub-Pass Abuse

Importable

Espeon @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Trick

Marowak-Alola @ Mental Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Curse
- Snore
- Sandstorm

Charizard @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Roar
- Sunny Day
- Snore

Gulpin @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belch

Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind

Hawlucha @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Encore
- Tailwind
- Substitute

Explanation

This team abuses passing Substitutes to relatively vulnerable but fast-self-KOing Pokemon.

Espeon is the Sub-Passer because it's the most reliable one you can get. Magic Bounce ensures that, unlike Accelgor, it's nearly impossible to interrupt. Unlike Mega Absol, Espeon can still hold an item that hurts it. I picked Toxic Orb because I found that Espeon was often too weak to pass a third Sub with Black Sludge. Protect is always a useful third move. Espeon's movepool is so bad that I've rarely found a use for the 4th moveslot. It's defensive Trick right now in case Espeon is handed a bad item, but it could be Magic Coat if the Mold Breaker population goes up. Espeon's HP is one more than a number divisible by 4 so it can use Sub as often as possible. (0 IVs and EVs leave it with a number divisible by 4.)

What loves being passed Subs? Belly Drummers that don't need to use Substitute in order to KO themselves in 2 turns! Marowak-Alola is the first such Drummer in the team. Belly Drum into Curse reliably self-2HKOs. Both Drummers have Snore because they're Taunt-weak, although Alolawak's Mental Herb can soak up one Taunt. Alolawak at least gets Sandstorm so it can try to self-KO in one more way. Alolawak's HP is divisible by 4 because you never know.

Charizard is the second Drummer on the team. Sunny Day, Solar Power, Belly Drum, Black Sludge, and an HP number divisible by 8 all work together to have Charizard self-2HKO. Charizard has Roar to boot out Snatch users and Perish Song recipients.

The third Sub-Pass abuser is Gulpin, who is Taunt- and Encore-proof along with phazing-resistant. It uses Belch as its only move...this means that all it can do is Struggle. With Sticky Barb and an HP number divisible by 8, that's a self-3HKO. Sticky Hold ensures that Gulpin's item cannot be taken away or traded off. It's Timid in order to make its Struggle as weak as possible.

What Suicide Cup team doesn't have a Smeargle? For this team, I ended up picking the Perish Passer because it's the most splashable--things won't always go right for this team, and Perish Passing can at least salvage mons who end up being unable to KO themselves fast enough. Mental Herb can block Taunt/Encore/etc. one crucial time. Whirlwind prevents opponents from taking advantage of hearing the Perish Song. Mind Blown ensures that Smeargle can reliably self-2HKO through Taunt. Jolly ensures that Mind Blown hits like a wet noodle. A bonus is that Smeargle has 2 ways to KO itself, so it can do neat things like outrace Gothitelle with Heal Pulse.

Hawlucha's here to both cuck opposing Belly Drummers and prevent the team from being too Mega Absol-weak. (Mega Absol with Snatch can otherwise get really annoying.) Mold Breaker ensures that Mega Absol can't do its job well enough. Taunt is bread-and-butter disruption, can help get the self-KOers in more safely, and can help Hawlucha get KOed. Encore locks those Oblivious Drummers into Sub or Drum. Substitute is one of the best moves in the game, IMO--it rips out 25% of your HP and blocks so many ill effects (Heal Pulse, Knock Off, Trick/Switcheroo, etc.). Tailwind is kinda useless in comparison, but I suppose speed boosts can be nice. Hawlucha has Toxic Orb because it helps it self-KO faster than Black Sludge does (from my experience) and it's less vulnerable to Knock Off. Hawlucha is Timid in case it gets Taunted.

Espeon, Alolawak, and Charizard are Hasty in order to get KOed by Struggle faster. None of them end up injuring anyone with attacks in practice, so none of them get offence-lowering natures.

Early-game, I tend to lead with Espeon and Sub and Pass as quickly as possible. I tend to pass to Gulpin if the opponent is a Taunt/Encore/Snatch/Heal Pulse carrier and to Charizard (then Alolawak) otherwise. Once an abuser self-KOs, get out Espeon again and repeat. Hawlucha's mainly here to be used against Mega Absol and rival Belly Drummers, but it's a decent generic disruptor against all teams. Save Smeargle for late-game--its Perish Passing is less reliable than Mega Absol's, so Perish Pass as little as possible. Often, all Smeargle does is save itself for last and spam Mind Blown. Less often, Smeargle needs to Whirlwind ASAP mid-game and get the hell outta dodge.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769530368
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769532950
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769840195
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769842838

 

[flying moose]

I'm going to join Lectrys by agreeing that it's been a really fun month, and by posting some teams. A lot of the sample teams in the OP were posted at the beginning of the month before the meta stabilized, so it would be nice to close the meta with some newer teams and maybe a final VR adjustment so that, if this meta ever gets jumpstarted again (which it hopefully will), some of the discoveries and innovations will still be in place.

The first of my main teams was a Perish Pass team built around Espeon as a temporary Perish Song holder:

Malamar @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Suction Cups
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Switcheroo
- Hypnosis
- Taunt
- Embargo

Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind
- Perish Song

Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Snatch
- Baton Pass
- Taunt

Walrein @ Black Sludge
Ability: Oblivious
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Roar
- Encore

Espeon @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Mimic
- Trick

Poliwag @ Black Sludge
Ability: Damp
EVs: 252 Spe
Serious Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Encore
- Hail

The biggest flaw with Perish Pass teams is that once you pass the song, you're usually just waiting around to die, and since you're using a fairly predictable strategy, the opponent can use this time to send out the appropriate Belly Drummer or some other mon that can kill itself efficiently in the same time period, or faster.

The key difference that helps this team get around this issue is Espeon. The idea is to pass a Perish Song, wait out for a few turns, and then send it to a final recipient just before the perish activates. This allows you to do several key things:

1) Espeon takes damage from Black Sludge and Substitute while you're waiting, making it quick to kill at the end, maintaining momentum
2) Deflect and discourage roars, taunts, and other disruption to ensure you can get the song to a recipient
3) Allow you to scout what the opponent does right after the Perish Song, allowing you to pick a final recipient who can effectively counter the opposition
4) Get your Perish Song-Baton Pass user off the field to prevent it from being KO'd by the occasional disruptive attacker

There are two Perish Passers, Absol and Smeargle, who each have their own advantages. Absol is obviously the more reliable passer, but Smeargle, like Espeon, can damage itself while waiting out the turn, and it can can also phaze when the opportunity allows. Absol, meanwhile, can taunt the opposition (don't use against magic coat Goth family) and Snatch opposing Substitutes and Belly Drums, slowing down any opponents who try to kill themselves before the Perish finishes.

The recipients each have different strengths depending on the situation. Malamar can't be phased out, and can sometimes disrupt the opponent with Trick, Taunt, or Hypnosis. Walrein can do it's own phazing if the opponent doesn't have Magic Coat. Poliwag is great at slowing down most opposing Smeargle. Both Walrein and Poliwag can KO themselves if need be (Walrein can't if it's been tricked though).

With this team, I peaked at 1544 on the ladder (6th place at the time). That was before the Choice Scarf ban, so I'm tempted to believe it would do even better if I kept using it.



But then I started using this somewhat gimmicky but super fun Tapu Bulu Grassy Terrain Team:

Charizard @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Substitute
- Sunny Day
- Roar

Murkrow @ Black Sludge
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Perish Song
- Whirlwind

Xatu @ Leftovers
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Pain Split
- Substitute
- Trick
- Tailwind

Mismagius @ Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Substitute
- Curse
- Pain Split

Absol-Mega @ Absolite
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Perish Song
- Snatch
- Taunt
- Baton Pass

Tapu Bulu @ Terrain Extender
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def
- Substitute
- Roar
- Taunt
- Torment

The idea here is obviously to slow down the opponent with Grassy Terrain, while your own flying, levitating, and Perish Song using pokemon can go business as usual. Perish Pass is a much smaller part of this team, mainly existing as the means to kill Tapu Bulu. Everyone else is designed to kill themselves and disrupt the opponent while doing it.

Xatu is the primary disruptor. This is one of those occasions where it has a definite niche over Espeon, as it takes no healing from the grass, and is able to heal the opponent with Pain Split, which works great in conjunction with the terrain. Leftovers Trick has even better synergy with the field effect, and although Xatu isn't as fast at it as Espeon, it is still quick enough to swap items with a lot of opponents. After you've gotten a damaging item (ideally Black Sludge), use a combo of Pain Split, Substitute, and switching to bring it's health down while the opponent tries to regain momentum. If you can't pull off the Trick, Magic Bounce makes Xatu a reliable recipient for Perish Song.

Of the others, Charizard is by far the best at killing itself in two turns, with both Substitute and Solar Power as options to use alongside Belly Drum, depending on the risk of Trick and whether Charizard has taken damage already. Mismagius can also kill itself in two turns, although it has to be careful about using Curse, so it's often good to take the extra time to disrupt with Taunt and Pain Split. Murkrow isn't quite as fast at killing itself, but it is a great disruptor due to Prankster Taunt. It's low attack and defense also make it a good absorber of Taunts and Struggles from opponents. These and Prankster Substitute make it a good switch-in. Perish Whirlwind is to kill itself if it loses its item.

Tapu Bulu has a terrain extender to maximize the healing the opponent takes, and since it can't really kill itself anyway, a damaging item isn't worth it. Tapu Bulu does have the excellent combo of Taunt and Roar, so after being passed the Perish Song, you can stop the opponent from trying to phaze you away, and then you can phaze them. Substitute and Torment are fillers, but Torment can keep Smeargle from using Mind Blown twice in a row.

While this strategy is definitely a little bit unusual, I was still able to hit 1519 on the ladder (10th place at the time). Unfortunately I was dumb and never saved any replays for either team.



Finally, I'd like to summarize the suggested updates to the viability rankings from the last few weeks before we completely close out on this awesome meta. Many of the suggested pokemon didn't actually have VR ratings assigned to them, so I graded them based on the discussion around them and my experiences with them. Please chime in if I missed or misinterpreted anything:



Mega Gengar: generally outclassed by Gothitelle, but does seem to have some niche due to being able to kill itself with controlled curses that the opponent can't switch out from: B-
Malamar/Inkay: un-phazable Perish Pass recipients: B+
Paras: better Sunkern due to access to Spore: B or B+
Toxicroak: Sun recipient with Snatch: B
Xatu: MB user with access to Tailwind, Thunder Wave, Pain Split and flying type, making it better than Espeon in rare circumstances: B- or B
Hoopa: Can steal items through subs, but dangerously powerful: B- or B
Delphox family: Same as Hoopa minus Fling, but with lower damage output. I tried this and wasn't very impressed with it: B- or lower

Also I think Hawlucha should rise to A or A+. Fast Mold Breaker Taunt makes it the premier counter to Perish Pass, period. And it can stop lots of other things too.

 

[Yozora]

It's been a fun month!

Here's one of my most successful Suicide Cup teams--hopefully, it's worthy of being a sample team.

Sub-Pass Abuse

Importable

Espeon @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Protect
- Trick

Marowak-Alola @ Mental Herb
Ability: Cursed Body
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Curse
- Snore
- Sandstorm

Charizard @ Black Sludge
Ability: Solar Power
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belly Drum
- Roar
- Sunny Day
- Snore

Gulpin @ Sticky Barb
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Belch

Smeargle @ Mental Herb
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Perish Song
- Baton Pass
- Whirlwind

Hawlucha @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Encore
- Tailwind
- Substitute

Explanation

This team abuses passing Substitutes to relatively vulnerable but fast-self-KOing Pokemon.

Espeon is the Sub-Passer because it's the most reliable one you can get. Magic Bounce ensures that, unlike Accelgor, it's nearly impossible to interrupt. Unlike Mega Absol, Espeon can still hold an item that hurts it. I picked Toxic Orb because I found that Espeon was often too weak to pass a third Sub with Black Sludge. Protect is always a useful third move. Espeon's movepool is so bad that I've rarely found a use for the 4th moveslot. It's defensive Trick right now in case Espeon is handed a bad item, but it could be Magic Coat if the Mold Breaker population goes up. Espeon's HP is one more than a number divisible by 4 so it can use Sub as often as possible. (0 IVs and EVs leave it with a number divisible by 4.)

What loves being passed Subs? Belly Drummers that don't need to use Substitute in order to KO themselves in 2 turns! Marowak-Alola is the first such Drummer in the team. Belly Drum into Curse reliably self-2HKOs. Both Drummers have Snore because they're Taunt-weak, although Alolawak's Mental Herb can soak up one Taunt. Alolawak at least gets Sandstorm so it can try to self-KO in one more way. Alolawak's HP is divisible by 4 because you never know.

Charizard is the second Drummer on the team. Sunny Day, Solar Power, Belly Drum, Black Sludge, and an HP number divisible by 8 all work together to have Charizard self-2HKO. Charizard has Roar to boot out Snatch users and Perish Song recipients.

The third Sub-Pass abuser is Gulpin, who is Taunt- and Encore-proof along with phazing-resistant. It uses Belch as its only move...this means that all it can do is Struggle. With Sticky Barb and an HP number divisible by 8, that's a self-3HKO. Sticky Hold ensures that Gulpin's item cannot be taken away or traded off. It's Timid in order to make its Struggle as weak as possible.

What Suicide Cup team doesn't have a Smeargle? For this team, I ended up picking the Perish Passer because it's the most splashable--things won't always go right for this team, and Perish Passing can at least salvage mons who end up being unable to KO themselves fast enough. Mental Herb can block Taunt/Encore/etc. one crucial time. Whirlwind prevents opponents from taking advantage of hearing the Perish Song. Mind Blown ensures that Smeargle can reliably self-2HKO through Taunt. Jolly ensures that Mind Blown hits like a wet noodle. A bonus is that Smeargle has 2 ways to KO itself, so it can do neat things like outrace Gothitelle with Heal Pulse.

Hawlucha's here to both cuck opposing Belly Drummers and prevent the team from being too Mega Absol-weak. (Mega Absol with Snatch can otherwise get really annoying.) Mold Breaker ensures that Mega Absol can't do its job well enough. Taunt is bread-and-butter disruption, can help get the self-KOers in more safely, and can help Hawlucha get KOed. Encore locks those Oblivious Drummers into Sub or Drum. Substitute is one of the best moves in the game, IMO--it rips out 25% of your HP and blocks so many ill effects (Heal Pulse, Knock Off, Trick/Switcheroo, etc.). Tailwind is kinda useless in comparison, but I suppose speed boosts can be nice. Hawlucha has Toxic Orb because it helps it self-KO faster than Black Sludge does (from my experience) and it's less vulnerable to Knock Off. Hawlucha is Timid in case it gets Taunted.

Espeon, Alolawak, and Charizard are Hasty in order to get KOed by Struggle faster. None of them end up injuring anyone with attacks in practice, so none of them get offence-lowering natures.

Early-game, I tend to lead with Espeon and Sub and Pass as quickly as possible. I tend to pass to Gulpin if the opponent is a Taunt/Encore/Snatch/Heal Pulse carrier and to Charizard (then Alolawak) otherwise. Once an abuser self-KOs, get out Espeon again and repeat. Hawlucha's mainly here to be used against Mega Absol and rival Belly Drummers, but it's a decent generic disruptor against all teams. Save Smeargle for late-game--its Perish Passing is less reliable than Mega Absol's, so Perish Pass as little as possible. Often, all Smeargle does is save itself for last and spam Mind Blown. Less often, Smeargle needs to Whirlwind ASAP mid-game and get the hell outta dodge.

Replays

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769530368
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769532950
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769840195
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-769842838

Nice team !
A few remarks :
- Your team doesn't really need Tailwind support (apart from Wak), you could use Baton Pass on Hawlucha instead. It is a very good BPasser for abusing MAbsol's Perish Song.
- Gulpin is... meh. It's very safe but it's really a sitting duck and its passivity can be abused.

Anyway, I might as well share my "main" team. It's far from perfect but pretty fun to play with

Import

Accelgor @ Black Sludge
Ability: Sticky Hold
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 2 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD / 30 Spe
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Encore
- Sandstorm

Mightyena @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Quick Feet
EVs: 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Snatch
- Roar / Heal Bell

Abra @ Black Sludge
Ability: Synchronize
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Magic Coat
- Snatch
- Knock Off

Smeargle @ Black Sludge
Ability: Own Tempo
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Mind Blown
- Defog / Sticky Web / Snatch / Baton Pass
- Floral Healing
- Taunt / Sticky Web / Snatch / Magic Coat

Espeon @ Black Sludge
Ability: Magic Bounce
EVs: 244 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 1 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Baton Pass
- Substitute
- Magic Coat / Trick
- Heal Bell / Magic Coat

Hawlucha @ Toxic Orb
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
IVs: 6 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Taunt
- Baton Pass / Defog
- Substitute
- Encore

Explanation

It's a SubPass heavy team the two secondary passers have HP divisible by 4 so that the team dies faster. Don't hesitate to dry pass a lot, that's the key to stay a step ahead of your opponent. It's also Snatch and Encore heavy to mess up BDrum users, and it's resistant to common disruption techniques.

Espeon is simply amazing. It's quite possibly the best lead. Magic Bounce usually prevents Turn 1 Taunt so that it can freely BPass or switch to the appropriate teammate. The 244 Spd Evs makes it slower than other Espeons and some MAbsol with negative speed creep (yeah this is a thing). Anyway this spread only loses the speed tie against non-mega Gengar (very rare), Jumpluff (can't do anything to Espeon) and Trick Lati@s (never seen). Trick is a leftover from ScarfGoth era, it's far from necessary but since people don't use Hawlucha much for some reason Magic Coat is disposable. Heal Bell is there so that the team doesn't instantly lose if Mightyena gets paralyzed.
Yeah Dugtrio is annoying.

Accelgor is a back-up plan against Trick, and Accelgor+Espeon+BPass spam is the closest thing to a Smeargle "check", as well as a bunch of fast thing with both Taunt and Trick. The set itself is straightforward : SubPass, Encore to force Smeargle to Mind Blown on you rather than going for webs or Taunt, Sandstorm is filler.

Mightyena is there because Prankster is cancer. It's not great, especially because it's very weak to Thunder Wave, but TWave is easy to get around, while Prankster is not. Heal Bell frees up a moveslot on Espeon, but Roar counters Murkrow (without it, you can still force a 1-for-1 anyway, and Mightyena is a good PSong fodder).

Abra is amazing because it's the quintessence of disruption. It gets almost all the useful moves in the meta, and people tend to forget it has access to stuff like Snatch. It also creates a lot of momentum by dying to nearly any Struggle, taking reasonnable damage from Mind Blown, forcing switches with Taunt , etc. In a typical situation, you want to get a free switch a Abra as early as possible to disable something. Once Koff and Snatch are revealed, it can proceed to spam Taunt and MCoat, or just wait to switch on a random Struggle.

Smeargle does Smeargle things, ie Mind Blown + random disruption. People rarely expect Taunt, Snatch or MCoat from Smeargle so it can abuse it freely. No Mental Herb because I never felt the need for it, and because Black Sludge means it can KO itself in a single turn in some situations. Floral Healing is important because it's the team's sole source of healing, and this team does not dies extremely fast. Defog must be on either Smeargle or Hawlucha, and is better on Smeargle. Btw, Dry Pass Smeargle is amazing if you run a trapper alongside it, because nobody expect Dry Pass Smeargle.
Taunt is useful because people tend to think they can counter God with terribad stuff like Paras (or Poliwag even if it's decent), and hitting Taunt on the switch generates a lots of momentum.

Hawlucha is another great BPass spammer but is mostly there to add some more Taunts and Encores to the mix. Encore is great because it doesn't let the opponent Struggle when Struggle fodders are dead, and even if Absol and Espeon start running Magic Coat it won't let them do their thing. Toxic Orb is there because I once lost due to Knock Off but it's probably sub-optimal. Anyway it's a good status absorber, especially since it can run Defog to check Webs setters. It's also the best user of Taunt + Baton pass (very effective to kill fodder like Abra).

Weaknesses : Mightyena is amazing against Prankster but is a weak link otherwise as it dies slowly, is prone to para, wants to Sub to die faster and wants to be BPassed a Sub at the same time. It's also quite a momentum killer unless you have a very favorable matchup. Dugtrio is problematic. MGengar is manageable if you spam BPass (which you are supposed to), just don't let the opponent suicide something in front of Hawlucha or Mightyena (the 4 other team members have no problem with it bar Pain Split). Goth is outsped by everything on this team so shouldn't be too much of a problem, but it forces a 50-50 vs Mightyena. Status spam considerably slows down this team's strategy as it forces you to SubPass to activate orbs instead of dry passing for momentum.
PSong Teams are usually rolled over, even if they run Magic Coat + Magic Bounce.
Be sure not to let Abra die too early, you really want that Knock Off off.

tl;dr : I should probably replace Mightyena by Murkrow or Purrloin.

On a side note, I'm an advocate of using "common" moves (Taunt, Snatch, Magic Coat, Baton Pass) on Smeargle, as illustrated above. People don't expect these and they usually end up with a Taunted Accelgor or Paras, both of which are highly abusable. The best course of actions against non-Trick Smeargle is, in my opinion, switching to Espeon then Dry Passing to Accelgor/Poliwag.

EDIT : I love Hawlucha but it's a bit of a mixed bag. It's mostly effective because people are not very prepared for it. Espeon basically has two free moveslots and can run Magic Coat very easily. MAbsol can run it too, probably over Sub. Hawlucha also relies on Encore to beat common threats, and more often than not it does not beat them reliably.
Anyway the VR needs cleaning. MGengar is legit, while some ranked things are not (Jumpluff ? why should you ever run that over Ribombee for ? Worry Seed ?).
I also think Goth family should move down, they are clearly not S-worthy without TrickScarf + several Goth on the same team. Yeah Trick still works with webs support but that's predicable and easier said than done (Espeon, MAbsol, Ditto, Webs Smeargle, Magic Coat anything, Defog Smeargle are all very common and are legitimate Smeargle-switch-ins). They also lose to the other three S mons almost everytime.

 

[Snafutari]

Well, since everyone else is, I might as well post my teams, but they never got insane usage due to the ladder going dead after the changes were implemented.

MAbsol

https://pokepast.es/cfea6ce42d63239a
This team was built around Mega Absol to pass its beautiful song to Inkay, and to kill itself afterward. Normalium Z makes Murkrow Taunt resistant, and is probably my favorite set for Murkrow (although I have used other sets for it). The rest of the sets are pretty self explanatory.

DuggyGoth

https://pokepast.es/ff352d927127b55a
This team was simply built around Dugtrio, which is nice for setting up Rocks against MAbsol and Espeon. Goth was also later placed on to help with Dugtrio getting Rocks against said Pokemon. Charizard was another Pokemon that I had somehow never played with until that point, with the IVs guaranteeing the kill after SubDrum. Murkrow was purely a utility set, and the rest is pretty obvious.

Murkrow is a really nice Pokemon tbh, its just a shame I've never really used it until after the metagame went dead. I hope these teams help people to keep playing even after the metagame died, just use AG for the MAbsol team, or else Absol can't mevo. Have fun, I'll try to accept challenges when I can, but let's see if we can't keep a high standard for this metagame!

 

[Yozora]

Well, since everyone else is, I might as well post my teams, but they never got insane usage due to the ladder going dead after the changes were implemented.

MAbsol

https://pokepast.es/cfea6ce42d63239a
This team was built around Mega Absol to pass its beautiful song to Inkay, and to kill itself afterward. Normalium Z makes Murkrow Taunt resistant, and is probably my favorite set for Murkrow (although I have used other sets for it). The rest of the sets are pretty self explanatory.

DuggyGoth

https://pokepast.es/ff352d927127b55a
This team was simply built around Dugtrio, which is nice for setting up Rocks against MAbsol and Espeon. Goth was also later placed on to help with Dugtrio getting Rocks against said Pokemon. Charizard was another Pokemon that I had somehow never played with until that point, with the IVs guaranteeing the kill after SubDrum. Murkrow was purely a utility set, and the rest is pretty obvious.

Murkrow is a really nice Pokemon tbh, its just a shame I've never really used it until after the metagame went dead. I hope these teams help people to keep playing even after the metagame died, just use AG for the MAbsol team, or else Absol can't mevo. Have fun, I'll try to accept challenges when I can, but let's see if we can't keep a high standard for this metagame!

Just a question : why do you run Snore on Espeon ? isn't it strictly inferior to Magic Coat (bar Skill Swap but it's rare)?
I've never been a fan of Snore. It's actually abusable because it means you can be trapped and Taunted something for many turns, without the possibility of Struggling. I know it prevents the common Taunt Goth + Struggle fodder strategy from working, but both Accelgor and Espeon can escape/beat Goth reliably.
Anyway I also regret I did not use Murkrow more ! But all in all it was a great, refreshing OMotM, it's a shame activity died out during the last weeks.

 

[Snafutari]

Just a question : why do you run Snore on Espeon ? isn't it strictly inferior to Magic Coat (bar Skill Swap but it's rare)?
I've never been a fan of Snore. It's actually abusable because it means you can be trapped and Taunted something for many turns, without the possibility of Struggling. I know it prevents the common Taunt Goth + Struggle fodder strategy from working, but both Accelgor and Espeon can escape/beat Goth reliably.
Anyway I also regret I did not use Murkrow more ! But all in all it was a great, refreshing OMotM, it's a shame activity died out during the last weeks.

How? Accelgor without Snore kills that entire team. As for why Espeon has Snore...I don't know, but Espeon has an unfortunate case of not having enough amazing moves to fill up a full moveset that you have to take some chances. Espeon's Snore at least gives security from Hawlucha, which is annoying without Snore and marginally less annoying with it.
Yeah, great month, but the last weeks' activity coming right after that major balancing decision was really disappointing. Hopefully it gets some activity later this year, or maybe sooner than November!

 

[Yozora]

Accelgor can escape Goth with BPass, even if Webs are up. But anyway since Sandstorm isn't great anyway, running Snore (so that Tailwind is not a problem) is ok.
Magic Coat Espeon is better for handling Hawlucha. The only inconvenient compared to Snore is that you cannot switch on Moldy Taunt, but why would you do that even if you run Snore ? (especially when you have another Snore user that actually outspeeds Hawlucha)
Anyway it's just a detail, great teams.

 

[Snafutari]

Accelgor can escape Goth with BPass, even if Webs are up. But anyway since Sandstorm isn't great anyway, running Snore (so that Tailwind is not a problem) is ok.
Magic Coat Espeon is better for handling Hawlucha. The only inconvenient compared to Snore is that you cannot switch on Moldy Taunt, but why would you do that even if you run Snore ? (especially when you have another Snore user that actually outspeeds Hawlucha)
Anyway it's just a detail, great teams.

Sandstorm is a useful support move for Accelgor, not something I'd say "isn't great." I consider it more of an option between Snore and Sandstorm. As for Magic Coat on Espeon, I guess that's a good point. I don't feel like creating a separate Pokepaste to slash that in. Honestly, the teams didn't get that much play time, since they were only ever used after the ladder went dead, and I kinda got a little away from SC because of it. There are likely more things that could be improved, but I might never be able to find it out.

 

[Tmi489]

You can also prevent your opponent from KOing their Pokemon by Skill Swapping Magic Guard

Banned Abilities

• Infiltator
• Misty Surge
• Magic Guard

edit: oops for necro

 

[CringeMeta]

Well, RIP the last entire year, but on the plus side, I'm happy to announce the availability of a new Suicide Cup: Random Battle ladder that perhaps could be used by new players to casually test out the basic concepts of the meta without having to build or acquire a team. This meta works similar to the regular Random Battle format, in that it tries to generate at least somewhat viable sets for each selected mon, rather than picking sets totally at random. For example, most Pokemon will have a self-damaging item, except in cases such as Trick/Switcheroo users or viable Megas that require Mega Stones. It is available on the following side-server: http://trashchannel.psim.us/

We just ran a small beta tour to test it last week. Replays:-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/trashchannel-gen7suicidecuprandombattle-88
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/trashchannel-gen7suicidecuprandombattle-87
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/trashchannel-gen7suicidecuprandombattle-89

There are some notable issues so far:-

* Some Pokemon can't learn 4 moves that are considered viable in Suicide Cup (there is a list of about 100 moves split into prioritised groups that Pokemon generate moves from; generally, the moves outside this pool are actively detrimental, such as direct attacking moves without useful side-effects that you could be forced to use if Taunted). Having fewer than 4 moves isn't considered a bug, since for some lower viability Pokemon this will likely be optimal. However, there are a couple of very problematic cases:-

1. Some Pokemon seem to have no viable moves in their learnset at all, and are currently generated with illegal sets that force them to Struggle. This isn't really a big balance problem like it would be in other Random metas, since Struggle-only users like Belch Trubbish have marginal viability in regular SC without being over-powered (in Random, they're if anything probably significantly better than the average set). However, since these sets are illegal, they probably should be prevented from being allowed to be selected. (Only conceptually incapable Pokemon such as Megas other than Absol, Gengar and Banette are currently banned from being generated.)

2. Pokemon usually disallowed from being selected in Randoms are passed, since the viability criteria don't align well with SC (I believe excellent Pokemon such as Purrloin would be culled). On the other hand, this setup also allows in Pokemon such as Kakuna. This thing might be an absolute powerhouse in Inverse Tier Shift Camomons Hackmons Cup, but it isn't well-suited to SC, with a typing that forces it to choose between Sticky Barb and Flame Orb as its only source of self-damage, no Substitute to prevent anything with a contact move potentially stealing its Barb, yet with its only legal ability, Shed Skin, also having a 1/3rd chance to heal Flame Orb burns each turn. Its 'viable' movepool doesn't exactly help, consisting only of String Shot and the bottom-tier Bug Bite, which is almost certain to do more harm than good. Pokemon like this probably need to be manually identified and removed.

* Snatch's seeming lack of availability prevents a lot of typical counterplay against moves like Substitute and Belly Drum. Although it is a high tier Pokemon, it perhaps should be promoted to the level of a Mind Blown or Substitute where anything that learns it is practically guaranteed to get it.

* Trick/Switcheroo perhaps should be limited to 1 user per team. Even though it's a very useful move, it seems like teams frequently end up with multiple users at the moment, which, even with human-built teams of high VR Pokemon, can easily destroy the item economy on both sides, leading to many stalemates.

Anyway, if you are interested, please check out Suicide Cup: Random Battle and submit any feedback or ideas you have: http://trashchannel.psim.us/

 

[TyronTGichaels]

Welcome family clause and RIP TrickScarf Goth teams.

---
I think it's time for a deep dive into one of the more underused and pleasantly cancerous offensive abilities in Suicide Cup, one that has several users overdue for viability ranking…yes, it's Magician! By combining this ability with certain attacks, you can build item thieves that function even while Taunted and against opponents with Subs up. Eat your heart out, Prankster Trick!






---

And just for fun…

Magician Smeargle in Suicide Cup AAA (quickly banned):-

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-762145536
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7suicidecup-762151540

Damn A, We Wuzz. Why anyone didn't it before?

 

[CringeMeta]

Some good and bad news recently for Suicide Cup.

The good news is that Unofficial Metagames's reign of terror highly respected tenure has come to an end, and Suicide Cup has been returned to OM status! This means, among other things, that it is allowed to be nominated for OMotM again. Many thanks to The Immortal for reuniting SC with the OM family.

The bad news is that Gen 8's removal of many Pokemon and mechanics (a.k.a. 'Dexit') may be particularly hard on Suicide Cup, as high viability Pokemon here don't merely outclass competitors, but are often unique in their niche/playstyle. Smeargle, Mega Absol and Slowpoke family are some notable losses, the former two being indispensable (unless we got a new Magic Bounce Perish Passer?) Perhaps just as importantly, the removal of the move Snatch (along with others, such as Assist) seems like it will also hurt diversity and the ability to counterplay Belly Drum race teams.

On the other hand, Gen 8 does bring new abilities and moves that will likely lead to some new and creative playstyles. One other feature, Dynamaxing, that might end up being banned in most other metas could merely have fringe usability here as a way to scout for and block Trick without having to dedicate a moveslot to Protect, since Dynamaxing temporarily turns all status move slots into the Protect-like Max Guard. It's possible a few converted attack moves could be usable in rare cases, like Max Nuzzle to set Electric Terrain and prevent sleep moves on the turn an opponent will already die. Fairy-type attacking moves might need to be banned though, as they set Misty Terrain, although there is more of a trade-off/risk compared to previous Misty-setting methods.

I will probably try to update TrashChannel to Gen 8 this weekend and create some SC ladders for it (OU and National Dex). Unfortunately even ND doesn't restore removed moves, but there is talk of a major pet mod that will do that, which might be a good base for SC mashups. So please look forward to Gen 8 Suicide Cup!

 

[Lectrys]

Speaking of Gen 8, how viable will Stealth Rock On Own Side teams be now with Court Change being a move? Shame that SR into Court Change needs 3 turns because Cinderace doesn't learn any hazards. On the other hand, Cinderace has 119 base Speed, so it outspeeds a lot of Taunters and can afford to run Mental Herb (so it can absorb a Taunt on the switch). It also takes 25% from SR and at least learns Taunt.

 

[Snafutari]

While I'm going to miss using some of the old strategies that were lost in Dexit (like Perish Passing, which is completely gone for the time being), I think the meta has some interesting new things going on. The biggest is that the incredibly powerful Smeargle is now gone, and even if it came back, there's no Mind Blown to make it so centralizing (I mean, Paras was viable for a time because of it for crying out loud!). Belly Drum being harder to stop now that Snatch is gone is kinda worrying, meaning that fast Taunts are going to be mandatory now the only good Belly Drum user that's legal is Charizard. That said, I just wanna talk about some new additions that I think will be somewhat relevant, and take a look at what is probably going to be better/worse than last gen.

Of course I had to bring this up. Court Change is going to be a very interesting tool for hazard teams (more on that later), but Cinderace actually has more than just that. It's a decently fast taunter, boasting itself at base 119, making it faster than other important Pokemon like Espeon and Hawlucha. It also packs access to Baton Pass, meaning that any poor fool that uses Curse is going to have a rough time. The last thing that should be mentioned is that it is weak to Stealth Rock, which I have a feeling is going to be a lot more relevant here than last gen.

This line has some really good moves at their disposal. Their access to Baton Pass+Heal Pulse is shared by only a few Pokemon (I'll talk about the others later). What truly makes these things unique, however, is their hidden ability Magic Bounce. This means that it gets an easy swap into a ton of potential high tiers (like Cinderace, the Goths, and other Heal Pulse users) so it can fire off even more annoying heals! This isn't all it has, though, as even the base form, Hatenna, has access to 3 other interesting moves: Imprison, Aromatherapy, and Nuzzle. Imprison can be used to throw off Baton Pass teams (assuming they become relevant) and/or stop Substitutes from going up, Aromatherapy can help you get rid of paralysis on Pokemon that are supposed to be poisoned, and Nuzzle can be really useful to shutdown Toxic Orb Pokemon on the switch. Meanwhile, the fully evolved form, Hatterene, is the only one of these to gain Trick Room, which can very easily get ugly on the right team. In addition, it has a gigamax form, which might be relevant, I guess. The biggest issue I see with this line is their speed, however. The fastest, the middle form (Hattrem), only has a base speed of 49. I still think this line has a ton of potential to be meta-relevant, however.

Galar Linoone is the closest thing we have to one of my favorite Pokemon last gen, Mightyena, but if Mightyena ends up coming back, Linoone still has some interesting tricks up its sleeve to differentiate itself. The first is its blistering speed; Mightyena sat at a comfy 393 speed, but given that Linoone has 30 more base speed, its speed goes up to a whopping 428! For comparison, Accelgor is just slower with 427, making Linoone the fastest Pokemon in the meta. That's not all, though, since Linoone has access to Knock Off, meaning it can strip most Pokemon of their items before they have an opportunity to put up a Substitute! It also gives you a pretty easy out to the ever annoying Magic Coat Gothitelle, allowing you to remove that things presence on the match and maybe allow you to get some extra faints that thing would prevent. It also has Taunt, like Mightyena, making this the fastest Taunter in the game to my knowledge. Probably the most interesting toy this thing has is Parting Shot, allowing you to put your opponent in some sticky situations (if they led with Dugtrio, you can switch to something that takes advantage of it, like your own Gothitelle). The last thing to say about Linoone is Switcheroo, which means if Toxic Orb becomes the most common damage item, you can easily just use Pecha to prevent a Pokemon from ever dying! This is easily my favorite new addition, and I'm almost completely certain it will be very relevant at high level play!

The smuggest new Pokemon, Dragapult also has some interesting applications in Suicide Cup. It sits at a nifty base 142 Speed, making it only slightly slower than Accelgor. This speed also gives it the title of the fastest Curse user, which can definitely see some use, especially at the start of a game. Like with most of the new Pokemon I'll discuss, it has access to Baton Pass, which also gives it the niche of the only Curse user with Baton Pass, an intriguing niche that could very well see some experimentation. Other cool moves in its arsenal include Thunder Wave, Infestation, Disable, and Thief. Honestly, I definitely think this will be used, but I don't see it being really good, I would say it'll probably be a solid B-tier Pokemon, because it just has no luck with abilities, with 2 meh at best abilities and Infiltrator, which is banned.

Sorry that this one is so much bigger than the other sprites, but I couldn't find a smaller version of Indeedee's female sprite, which is the more important one. This is the other interesting Pokemon that has access to Heal Pulse+Baton Pass, but with an even more interesting ability in Psychic Surge, which can completely cripple Prankster Taunts/Tricks so you aren't as easily interrupted. Other than that, this thing has 3 moves that could all be useful: Trick, Imprison, and Aromatherapy. Its also faster than the whole Hatterene line, so there's that as well.


That's all the new additions I wanted to talk about, now let's talk about the Pokemon that are quite likely to be good this gen!

I'm pretty sure Dugtrio is the biggest winner on the generation turn. It had a rough time making use of its niche consistently in USUM, but with more Magic Bouncers and Cinderace around, you can get those Rocks on your side of the field much, much more consistently. Like, you can just play this against a Pokemon with nothing to deal with it, set up Rocks, then just stall for a free switch to Cinderace, making it the best enabler of Cinderace I can see. In fact, I'd rank this as the most likely Pokemon to be broken this generation, and will force many players to run Defog/Court Change if they don't want to give their opponents free wins.

The only thing the second best Pokemon in the meta last gen lost was Smeargle easily killing it with Mind Blown. That's it. It's still the safest Sub-Passer in the game, its still going to be one of the best Pokemon in the meta. The biggest change is Snatch going away, making its Subs even harder to stop! It also has Spikes/Toxic Spikes, which may be interesting to experiment with Cinderace, though I don't think that'll end up being super relevant. Overall, Accelgor is still going to be relevant in the meta, no doubt.

Espeon was always the Accelgor you used if Taunt was more common than Trick/Knock Off, so of course it'll be important. It can run Trick as well, making it rather frustrating to most teams as well. I really don't have much to say about Espeon, but it's definitely going to be good this generation.

Hawlucha was highly slept on last gen as it was, but now its niches seem to be even better than ever. Fast Taunts/Encore with Mold Breaker is really good with no Snatch and a lot more Magic Bouncers, making it fairly tough to deal with. It's also got access to Defog, which makes it very useful against Dugtrio teams, should you let it get rocks up on its side of the field. Definitely a threat to prepare for.

Charizard is, in my estimation, the only good Belly Drummer left. Why? It's the only one with the potential to kill itself in a single turn with a free switch. If you can get rocks on your side of the field (should be easy with Dugtrio+Cinderace), let something die, and send this in the turn after, this will lose half its health to rocks, Belly Drum the next turn, then die to Black Sludge/Solar Power damage. Its a damn good niche, and I definitely see it being way more viable this gen than last one. As for why I don't see any other Belly Drummers as viable, the rest are incredibly vulnerable to Taunt, since all of the Oblivious Belly Drummers are gone.


As for the losers with the generation change, the only noticeable one I can think of are the Liepard family. For some reason, they were released without Prankster. That was their main claim to fame, and I don't see either of them being viable without it. As soon as they get it, I'm sure they'll find a pleasant niche for themselves. The next group of Pokemon that will likely never be seen are the one devoted to taking advantage of smeargle. The only one of these that I know is legal now is Jellicent, but if there are more, well, they won't be seeing much play. The last Pokemon I predict will see less play (I'm not sure about this one, so take this one with a grain of salt) is Ribombee. It relied on Sticky Webs for any sense of viability, and as long as Cinderace is used, its going to be a lot worse of a niche.

 

[Lectrys]

How viable is Steel Beam in Gen 8 Suicide Cup? It similarly rips out half your own HP a la Mind Blown (though I don't think we've confirmed whether that rounds up or down yet). Most of the mons that learn it have thankfully poor special attack (though I don't remember any of them hitting high Suicide Cup tiers).

Actually, you know what, what prevents a team of 6 Steel Beam users from tearing through the meta with their self-2HKOs? Heal Beam users and mons 4x weak to Steel are the two best ways to stop or outrace them that I can think of. Grassy Terrain would have helped if Black Sludge weren't a thing. While Steel Beam users do need to turn their self-2HKOs into self-3HKOs in order to stop interrupters, Durant has the fastest Substitute at 109 base Speed, Bisharp has the fastest Taunt at 70 base Speed and is conveniently a Dark-type, and Silvally has the fastest Magic Coat at 95 base Speed and can hold a Toxic Orb profitably--and they all outspeed Gothitelle. Galarian Rapidash is the fastest non-NatDex Heal Pulse user at 105 base Speed, but it can't stop everything, and Gardevoir is the fastest user of both Heal Pulse and Taunt at 80 base Speed, but Silvally outspeeds.

 

[The Immortal]

If anyone wants to bring this to gen 8 OMs, let me know.

 

[flying moose]

Charizard is, in my estimation, the only good Belly Drummer left

While we will miss Walrein, Slowpoke, and Lickitung, and Charizard is certainly excellent, I do think there are two very good new BD options available.

Darmanitan-galar's Zen Mode will be a great belly-drummer for anyone using the Stealth Rock - Court Change strategy. All you need to do is get in the one turn where you use Belly Drum, and then you can switch out, and once rocks are up on your side and someone else on your team dies, you can come in and faint for free. Granted, Charizard can do this too, but you could double up on this strategy using both, and Darmanitan has both Taunt and Trick at its disposal. You could conceivably run mental herb to be safe from taunt while you belly drum, and then steal an item to hurt yourself and stop the opponent.


Kommo-o is now another awesome suicide mon, even better than darm for general purposes. With both Belly Drum and it's new move Clangorous Soul (which boosts all your stats in exchange for 33% percent of its health, you can very easily kill yourself in two turns just like Charizard. In general, if you are ever less than half health, CS plus a damaging item gets you to zero faster than substitute. It can also run Sandstorm to finish itself off if you lose your item.

Finding a good Steel Beam user would be really cool but it's hard to find the perfect user. Alola-Diglett/Dugtrio and Togedemaru all have atrocious Sp Atk stats (35, 50, and 40 respectively) and high speeds, but don't offer much else, although Togedemaru at least has encore. Galarian Meowth has 40 SpA and Taunt, but its speed is terrible so it won't get to use it much. The biggest problem I see with Steel Beam is that this dearth of alternative options will make these users very predictable. No one's going to keep a subbed pokemon in on any of them because they know they can take free damage if they switch into the Beam. So some very frail switch-ins might be able to kill themselves just as fast as the SB user, but with greater momentum. Then again, Blacephalon's game was just as obvious and it did fine.

EDIT: If the Rocks-Court Change strategy becomes a thing, I can already see an archetype with those four mons right off the bat: Dugtrio, Cinderace, Charizard, and Galarian Zen Darmanitan. It'll be obvious as hell, but trapping Dug switching directly to Cinderace could be hard to stop and doesn't give the opponent much time to take advantage of the hazards. If it becomes popular I could see an increase in Shed Shell and levitating mons to give Dugtrio fewer trapping/rock setting targets. And as NOC mentioned, more Defog as well.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

I actually DM'd the OP of this thread hoping they'd come back to bring Suicide Cup to gen8, and man I've been itching to play again! I love all the speculation already mentioned, so I'll go over some thoughts:

How viable is Steel Beam in Gen 8 Suicide Cup? It similarly rips out half your own HP a la Mind Blown (though I don't think we've confirmed whether that rounds up or down yet). .

Steel Beam easily has a high chance for viability as it is essentially Mind Blown but with much more coverage. Previously, Smeargal did have a nasty 50/50 if it was switched into on sub users, as it can either Mind Blow to shave off halve its health quick, or Sub itself if the opp switches out or scouts with Protect. This was great for Smeargal as it always had an out to KO itself, and could afford to run antimeta items with Trick like Mental Herb or Choice Band (30% and 17% usage, respectively). It's worth noting that Mind Blown was ran a solid 99% of the time on Smeargal (the most used mon by 81% lol), which should show how viable Steel Beam likely will be.

Bronzor @ Mental Herb / Black Sludge
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Trick
- Imprison / Sandstorm / Stealth Rock / Protect
Bronz has a very low Spa and a great movepool to go with Steel Beam. It can Trick much like Smeargal, but its low speed will likely make it unviable as a choice user. It likely can play a good waiting game for sub + steal beam and having the bonus of a good supportive movepool.

Durant @ Black Sludge / Mental Herb
Ability: Swarm
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Baton Pass
- Agility / Sandstorm / Thunder Wave

The fastest user, Durant also has a low Spa and access to Baton Pass.

Bisharp @ Black Sludge / Mental Herb
Ability: Pressure
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Substitute
- Taunt
- Mean Look / Sandstorm / Thunder Wave

Bish is immune to prankster Taunts while having the fastest Taunt + Steel Beam in the game. Pawn is probably worth mentioning as well for less Spa.

Overall, Steel Beam users have a nice option to always out themselves if needed, but can be put in a tough situation where if they're Taunted they can be forced to Steel Beam and KO the weaker, already viable mons of Suicide Cup. Mental Herb is a good enough option, then, as having a safe sub ready against a faster Taunt user could be worthwhile.

A few quick observations:

• Court Change is super scary with Dugtrio around trapping SR, which makes me believe that Defog users may actually be viable on teams that don't wanna lose the MU. The problem is that Taunt is very popular, and Cinderace itself even has it. The only Defoger that outspeeds it is Noivern (the teambuilder search isn't accurate to what's legal), which only really has a fast Taunt itself to make it viable outside this one niche. I could see Court Change being totally centralizing, and something to keep an eye on for sure.
• No more Snatch to check Belly Drum, you're solely limited to Taunt.
• The Grimsnarl family can be added to the list of Prankster Dark types with a ton of utility moves, but nothing too unique.
• Taunt Trapping with Mega Gengar is gone, and in general likely not a great option as now any taunt mon can just switch out instead of being forced to Struggle kill really weak mons
  • On that, most sets should default now to a negative Special Def nature, as Steel Beam will likely be a lot more likely than Taunt into Struggle situations. It's still plausible, but I imagine the meta will be around these users.
• Trapping besides mega Gar has all returned, and expect that to be just as viable.
• Nuzzle spam was really popular late into the ladder last time, which was meant to get the opp down to one mon that can't KO itself, then Nuzzle it before Toxic Orb set in and just heal pulse it while the rest of your team KOs. Likely now that Steel Beam is everywhere, the Assist-Nuzzle team won't be topping the ladder again.
• Dyna is probably totally worthless, as the benefit of something like Max Starfall preventing status is at the risk of a ton of damage, a waste of a moveslot, and likely harms ur team as well.
• Weavile is the fastest taunter in the game, + is immune to Prankster taunt. Potent.

That's all for now, if you see me on PS just hmu and I'd love to play a game with last gens clauses in tact! (also, to discuss this UM that was so much last gen). One last thing, I'll just throw it out there, if we want to make this meta a bit more accessible in its name (ala FU renaming to ZU), could I suggest Anti Mons? Just because Anti Chess has the same principle here. I don't have a problem with the current name, but I understand if some people here would.

Edit: Replays!
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1017783014
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1017785289
Court Change can be very effective, no doubt.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1017788105
Weavile, heal pulse, some more testing
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1017791438
Goth can be a liability at times but if at the wrong ranges even faster mons (without Taunt) can succumb to choice trapping

 

[Lectrys]

This might be a more effective way to stall out Steel Beam Spam teams (which ideally outrace Hazards Court Change teams):

Silvally @ Toxic Orb
Ability: RKS System
EVs: 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Steel Beam
- Imprison
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave / Protect / Parting Shot

Silvally is the fastest user of Steel Beam + Imprison at 95 base Speed. The only non-NatDex Steel Beam users that outspeed it are Durant and Togedemaru. Since Imprison is conveyed as affecting its user, it notably bypasses opposing Substitute, Protect, Magic Coat, and Magic Bounce.

The rest of Silvally's moves are occupied by commonly used Suicide Cup moves (and you need Substitute to minimize what Gothitelle can do to you), although the utility of slow pivoting with Parting Shot may be too good to resist. This Silvally can prevent slower Thunder Waves from touching it, though.

The Toxic Orb is currently there because Silvally can get profitably Toxiced by it and just in case it enters a Heal Pulse war and somehow can't get up a Substitute.

Alternately, Weavile is the fastest user of Torment at a killer fast 125 base Speed. Shame that Torment actually still lets them use Steel Beam...just less often than paralyzing them does on average....

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Preemptive Gen8 Role Comp:

After playing a few matches, I really got inspired to flesh out some resources for all the possibilities in gen8. This post can be a good reference going forward and open up the discussion about viable teambuilding strats and roles.
I'll mention the good about each mon, including its speed tier and viable moves outside of Sub / Protect / Snore, which are of course assumed.
(using eggs for sprites of new mons)

Court Change

Court Change User:

Cinderace - 119 spe, Court Change, Taunt

SR Setters:

Dugtrio - 120 spe, Arena Trap, Stealth Rock

Mew - 100 spe, Taunt, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Imprison, Stealth Rock

Kommo-o - 85 spe, Clangorous Soul, Taunt, Belly Drum, Stealth Rock, Encore

Mamoswine family - 80 spe, Oblivious, Stealth Rock

Bisharp family - 70 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Stealth Rock

Bronzor - 23 spe, Steel Beam, Imprison, Trick, Stealth Rock

Viable x4 Weak Mons:

Ninjast - 160 spe, Speed Boost, Baton Pass

Darminitan-Galar-Zen - 135 spe, Belly Drum, Taunt, Encore

Charizard - 100 spe, Belly Drum, Solar Power

Butterfree - 70 spe, Sleep Powder, Teleport

Frosmoth - 65 spe, Shield Dust, Imprison, Defog

Defog:

Noivern - 121 spe, Defog, Taunt

Hawlucha - 118 spe, Mold Breaker, Limber, Taunt, Defog

Corviknight - 67 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Defog

Frosmoth - 65 spe, Shield Dust, Imprison, Defog

Weezing-Galar - 60 spe, Neutralizing Gas, Taunt, Aromatherapy

Other Hazards / Niche Options:

Accelgor - 145 spe, Sticky Hold, Baton Pass, Spikes, Toxic Spikes

Frosslass - 110 spe, Taunt, Switcheroo, Imprison, Spikes

Mew - 100 spe, Taunt, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Imprison, Stealth Rock, Encore

Wimpod - 80 spe, Emergency Exit, Tuant, Spikes

Dwebble - 55 spe, Stealth Rocks, Spikes, Steel Beam Weakness

Taunt

Prankster:

Whimsicott - 116 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Switcheroo, Encore

Liepard family - 106 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Trick, Thunder Wave, Baton Pass, Encore (Unreleased)

Grimsnarl - 60 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Trick

Sableye - 50 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Imprison, Trick, Encore

Impidimp - 50 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Trick, Steel Beam Weakness

Oblivious:

Salazzle - 117 spe, Oblivious, Taunt, Disable, Encore

Regular:

Linoon-Galar (Poisoned) - 100 spe, Quick Feet, Taunt, Switcheroo, Parting Shot

Darminitan-Galar-Zen - 135 spe, Belly Drum, Taunt, Encore

Weavile - 125 spe, Taunt

Noivern - 121 spe, Defog, Taunt

Cinderace - 119 spe, Court Change, Taunt

Hawlucha - 118 spe, Mold Breaker, Limber, Taunt, Defog, Encore

Salazzle - 117 spe, Oblivious, Taunt, Disable, Encore

Gengar - 110 spe, Taunt, Curse, Encore, Trick, Imprison

Frosslass - 110 spe, Taunt, Switcheroo, Imprison, Spikes

Linoon-Galar - 100 spe, Quick Feet, Taunt, Switcheroo, Parting Shot

Mew - 100 spe, Taunt, Spikes, Toxic Spikes, Trick, Imprison, Stealth Rock

Kommo-o - 85 spe, Clangorous Soul, Taunt, Belly Drum, Stealth Rock, Encore

Gardevoir - 40 spe, Taunt, Trick, Encore, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Steel Beam Weakness

Bisharp family - 70 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Stealth Rock

Corviknight - 67 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Defog

Weezing-Galar - 60 spe, Neutralizing Gas, Taunt, Aromatherapy

Gothitelle family - 50 spe, Shadow Tag, Taunt, Heal Pulse,

Raltz - 40 spe, Taunt, Trick, Encore, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Steel Beam Weakness

Steel Beam

By Speed:

Durant - 109 spe, Steel Beam, Baton Pass

Togedemaru - 96 spe, Steel Beam, Encore, Nuzzle

Silvally - 95 spe, Steel Beam, Imprison, Parting Shot

Bisharp family - 70 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Stealth Rock

Corviknight - 67 spe, Taunt, Steel Beam, Defog

Honedge - 28 spe, Steel Beam, Anti Trap

Bronzor - 23 spe, Steel Beam, Imprison, Trick, Stealth Rock

KOs to Steel Beam (based off optimal Bronzor attacking, before Black Sludge):

Roggenrolla - 15 spe, Stealth Rock, Steel Beam Weakness (Guranteed 1hko)

Snom - 20 spe, Steel Beam Weakness (Guranteed 1hko)

Raltz - 40 spe, Taunt, Trick, Encore, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Steel Beam Weakness (Guranteed 1hko)

Swinub - 50 spe, Oblivious, Steel Beam Weakness (Guranteed 1hko)

Dwebble - 55 spe, Stealth Rock, Spikes, Steel Beam Weakness (Guranteed 1hko)

Cutiefly - 84 spe, Shield Dust, Imprison, Trick, Sticky Web, Steel Beam Weakness (87.5% chance to OHKO)

Impidimp - 50 spe, Prankster, Taunt, Trick, Steel Beam Weakness (62.5% chance to OHKO)

Belly Drum

By Speed:

Darminitan-Galar-Zen - 135 spe, Belly Drum, Taunt, Encore

Charizard - 100 spe, Belly Drum, Solar Power

Darminitan - 95 spe, Belly Drum, Taunt, Encore

Kommo-o - 85 spe, Clangorous Soul, Taunt, Belly Drum, Stealth Rock, Encore

Slurpuff family - 72 spe, Unburden, Belly Drum, Sticky Web, Aromatherapy

Clefable family - 60 spe, Belly Drum, Heal Pulse, Aromatherapy, Baton Pass, Imprison, Trick, Steel Beam Weakness

Heal Pulse

By Speed:

Rapidash-Galar family - 105 spe, Heal Pulse, Baton Pass, Imprison

Raltz family - 80-40 spe, Taunt, Trick, Encore, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Steel Beam Weakness

Clefable family - 60 spe, Belly Drum, Heal Pulse, Aromatherapy, Baton Pass, Imprison, Trick, Steel Beam Weakness

Gothitelle family - 50 spe, Shadow Tag, Taunt, Heal Pulse, Imprison

Indeedee-F - 85 spe, Psychic Surge, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Baton Pass, Aromatherapy, Psycho Shift, Trick

Hatterene family - 29 spe, Magic Bounce, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Baton Pass, Aromatherapy, Nuzzle

Status

Nuzzle:

Hatterene family - 29 spe, Magic Bounce, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Baton Pass, Aromatherapy, Nuzzle

Togedemaru - 96 spe, Steel Beam, Encore, Nuzzle

Pichu family - 60 spe, Nuzzle, Encore

Sleep:

Butterfree - 70 spe, Sleep Powder, Teleport

Other:

Linoon-Galar - 100 spe, Quick Feet, Taunt, Switcheroo, Parting Shot

Xatu - 70 spe, Magic Bounce, Trick, Imprison, Teleport, Pyscho Shift

Clerics:

Weezing-Galar - 60 spe, Neutralizing Gas, Taunt, Aromatherapy

Indeedee-F - 85 spe, Psychic Surge, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Baton Pass, Aromatherapy, Psycho Shift, Trick

Clefable family - 60 spe, Belly Drum, Heal Pulse, Aromatherapy, Baton Pass, Imprison, Trick, Steel Beam Weakness

Slurpuff family - 72 spe, Unburden, Belly Drum, Sticky Web, Aromatherapy

Hatterene family - 29 spe, Magic Bounce, Heal Pulse, Imprison, Baton Pass, Aromatherapy, Nuzzle

Now that surely isn't everything but I think its a good start for now. Of course things like Curse BP Drag and Ditto are likely very viable, but I didn't write in their niches yet. Got to play a lot of games past 12 hours or so, lovin the meta!

 

[Lectrys]

Figured out another way to deal with Steel Beam Spam: Disable. It only kinda works, especially if the Steel Beam users suddenly start behaving like Sub-Belly Drum users, but a faster Disable user can at least force a wasted turn if they were thinking of Steel Beaming again. Dragapult is the fastest Disable user at a blazing 142 base Speed, so they have hope.

 

[S1nn0hC0nfirm3d]

Figured out another way to deal with Steel Beam Spam: Disable. It only kinda works, especially if the Steel Beam users suddenly start behaving like Sub-Belly Drum users, but a faster Disable user can at least force a wasted turn if they were thinking of Steel Beaming again. Dragapult is the fastest Disable user at a blazing 142 base Speed, so they have hope.

Steel Beam (SB) no doubt will be very viable and annoying, and there isn't THAT much that you can do about it. Disable is probs not a good answer as: Substitute into Steel Beam is a KO in 2 moves. There is nothing as good as this offensively, but there are counter measures I'll list here:

1: Steel Beam 1HKOs:
The best way to check SB is to have a mon get 1hko'd by it. The standard here is Bronzor and Ferroseed, as they have the minimum damage possible with the move. Even at this range, there are totally viable mons that are worth running that are guranteed to be KO'd in one hit. Impidimp goes down after Sludge damage and is a great Prankster Dark type for the tier, Ralts is a slower Gard but has a great supportive movepool. Cottonee takes 80-94% from Bronz (1HKO'd by say Durant tho) and is another viable prankster user. More niche options are like Cutiefly, with its Imprison / Trick / Webs support, or Oblivious Swinub that can sub easily. The most niche would be for Court Change teams, as even a usally worthless mon like Snom can abuse both its x4 SR weakness and Steel Beam weakness to snag KOs in the right MUs. There really aren't that many options when dealing with Bronz / Ferro because their Spa is just so low. At its worst, maybe these two could be suspected instead of suspecting Steal Beam, as other mons like Toge / Durant / Pawn have a spa in range of KOing a ton more mons like Sneasel / Whimiscott / Slurpuff.

2: Encore:
Funnily enough, Encore can be a great way to stop SB. Most users want to Sub up first and then Steel Beam to scout, especially if the opp has SB fodder.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1017982253
Encore is easy to fit on a lot of already viable, fast mons, and you can shut down the SB user if done correctly.

3: Trapping:
The least likely way to stop SB is with Goth, as u can potentially Trick them a Choice Specs and Heal Pulse stall them while they KO you and maybe another mon tops. Hard to do because again, like I said with Encore, they like using Sub first.

TL;DR: Disable likely doesn't work as SB mons Sub first usually and then are in range of a single SB to KO themselves, meaning they usually only need one SB in the first place. Likely the best option for the early meta is to have 1 or two SB sacks like Impidimp so you can capitalize on the worst abusers, Bronz / Ferro.

Edit: A 4th! Imprison + Heal Pulse:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8anythinggoes-1019616673

Imprison + Heal Pulse is learnt by a ton of viable mons like Rapidash, Indeedee, Gard, Goth, Clef, and Hatrem. This combo with Sub prevents the Steel Beam mons from going for Sub, meaning usually the only thing they can do is attack. That allows the Heal Pulse user (especially if faster) to spam it and prevent them from losing anything but Black Sludge damage. Not bad, but requires some set up + can't be switched into.

 

[CringeMeta]

Okay, Gen 8 Suicide Cup and National Dex Suicide Cup ladders have been added to the TrashChannel server. Suicide Cup Random Battle has not been optimised for Gen 8 (I don't even know a lot of the new moves and abilities yet) but since it sources from vanilla [Gen 8] Random Battle team generation, it would have been more effort to downgrade it, so that is Gen 8 for now also. *Users have reported difficulties in saving replays on side-servers in recent months, so you might have to try to upload more than once if you want to do that.

---

Here are my first thoughts on some of the changes discovered in Gen 8 so far:-

Steel Beam

When Lectrys's post introduced this to me, I thought it would be completely broken, like having a team of 6 Mind Blown Smeargles in Gen 7. While the variable moveset quality of the users and STAB/stat profiles holds it back to some degree, it is very, very good. Feeding fairies into SB spam is a strong counterplay, but the problem is that SB seems to tend to start outpacing in self-KOs if the opponent only has 1-2 effective fodder, and a heavily mono SB weak team seems inefficient in other matchups.

One quality of Steel Beam that hasn't been discussed so far is that, unlike Mind Blown, it has imperfect base accuracy (95%). Considering this a possible drawback, I tried out Honedge, both for No Guard and for its Ghost typing to escape trapping. However, I later realised when attacking with SB from a different user that you actually take the recoil damage even if the attack misses! So No Guard is actually a debuff, and if there is some way to reliably reduce your accuracy further, it would be a buff.

A possible counterplay to SB I thought of today is Me First, especially since most SB users themselves resist the move, but I don't know if it would actually apply the recoil (IIRC Mind Blown didn't).

Trick / Switcheroo

These moves seem less generally effective now because so many more mons can reliably kill themselves using SB or hazards regardless of holding a damaging item. However, if the right target gets tricked, it can be much more dangerous, as there is no legal Perishpasser left extant and released (apparently Celebi is unreleased) that could try to rescue item-dependent Pokemon. I hard lost a couple of games due to forgetting this crutch is gone, although something like Sandstorm or Hail can still be a workaround.

This seems like one of the best new users, with excellent typing, ability and movepool (it could simply start out with Black Sludge and be used as a safe switch-in to potential item deprivation mons):-

Impidimp (M) @ Pecha Berry
Ability: Prankster
EVs: 252 Spe
Naive Nature
IVs: 0 HP / 0 Atk / 0 Def / 0 SpA / 0 SpD
- Thunder Wave
- Trick
- Taunt
- Substitute

Dynamax

As Ho3nConfirm3d pointed out, Max Starfall in practice is far from overpowered and may be totally unviable. To access it, Impidimp, for example needs to run either Play Rough or Draining Kiss, which aside from the opportunity cost and high max move damage, also makes it very vulnerable to taunt. In some cases where I was able to use it, I felt like it had some impact on discouraging Toxic Orb users temporarily, but it's very marginal; the fact that Dynamax mechanic prevent the effect from every being re-applied distinguishes it from previous Misty Terrain moves/abilities and prevents it from being unhealthy to the meta like those were.

Still, Max Guard seems worth considering in rare situations. I realised in hindsight several times that it could have saved me from Knock Off or Trick but I overlooked it.

Court Change / Self Rock

This seems like the strongest main archetype now, appearing to outspeed SB overall, although maybe the meta can adapt with multiple defoggers (unfortunately it seems to be a less well distributed move now, with e.g. Charizard losing access to it).

One of the main things that distinguishes SC from other metas is that you can't in general 'sweep', since 1. however efficient a mon is at killing itself, most of that momentum ends irrevocably as soon as it dies, and 2. the team that is ahead during a match in KO count is also comparatively disadvantaged in tools to disrupt and protect against the opponent (e.g. killing your own Accelgor brings you closer to directly meeting the victory condition, yet makes the remainder of your team more vulnerable to Trick). This made Smeargle, while highly centralising, not unhealthy to the meta.

Successfully abusing hazards on your own side is one of the biggest exceptions to this dynamic, since it can allow you to chain multiple KOs into one turn if you wear your team down in an appropriately even way first. This is a uniquely efficient way of clearing the final part of the HP gauge, and allows you to keep a more diverse bench alive until you are ready to end things.

This sort of situation was possible to set up in Gen 7, but if the opponent lacked a Magic Bounce user (or played them well) it needed some real agency plays with a Skill Swap Espeon into Dugtrio to pull off semi-reliably, so it was hard earned. Court Change might make things a little too easy...

 

[Lectrys]

Would Dugtrio or Mamoswine be the better Stealth Rock setter in a non-NatDex Court Change team? I believe they're the two best SR setters in the non-NatDex meta because Dugtrio is the fastest and has Arena Trap, while Mamoswine is the fastest setter with Oblivious (and is neutral to SR, while Dugtrio resists). Mamoswine scouts for anti-Court Change tactics more poorly, though.