Pokémon Starmie

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Ropeburn said:
Yeah, what a significant boost in defenses...
Starmie Base stats: 60/75/85/100/85/115
Greninja Base stats: 72/95/67/103/71/122
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20 points higher in Defense is pretty significant. Especially in this Meta-Game with a whole lot of physical attackers.

Starmie is psychic type, which is not good in the metagame. Aegislash, Tyranitar, Scizor, Genesect (post-pokebank) and Rotom-A are all extremely common pokemon that starmie gets flat out countered by. Greninja can at LEAST u-turn out.
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This is true. U-Turn is a great move for Greninja to have and can get him out of trouble.

Starmie just BARELY takes a Brave Bird from Talonflame:
252 Atk Life Orb Swellow Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 220-259 (84.29 - 99.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (75% chance of OHKO if Stealth Rocks are up)
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And Greninja CAN'T survive a BB at all from Talonflame. That is a big difference. Starmie can survive and Thunderbolt or Hydro Pump in retaliation. Greninja just dies. XD

Just because you have protean doesn't mean you can't make intelligent plays, and with 122 speed, what can really hit you with these attacks other than scarfs and priority? Greninja's Ice Beam OHKO's Dragonite through multiscale. Starmie cannot do this.
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You are right, however, your opponent can also trap Greninja slacking and kill it off afterwards due to a new-found weakness due to Protean. Now, Protean is still a great ability, but I do not find it the be-all end all. Especially since it changes the moment you pick the move, and not after the move is used, which is both good and bad, IMO.

So does Greninja. It gets Grass Knot, U-turn, Dark Pulse, Extrasensory, Spikes, Hydro Pump, Toxic Spikes, and can go physical as well. Keep in mind that these are all STAB.
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Greninja cannot learn Psyshock, and Extrasensory wishes it was as good as Psyshock. Starmie can also learn Grass Knot, however the coverage options are better with Starmie's other moves (same with Greninja, actually...) Using Spikes for set-up is dangerous against a lot of threats due to the lacking bulk and defenses of Greninja. Having a ground weakness is also probably not the best thing to have, either. The best thing about Greninja is STAB everything. It is what makes him really dangerous, and OU material, but I really don't think it out-classes Starmie by a whole lot overall. Both have their purposes.

Yes, Starmie will have this niche, but I don't think that's enough to stay relevant in OU. It wasn't so much that rain was nerfed, moreso that the metagame around it changed. Starmie's still a pretty good pokemon, but I have difficulty justifying its spot on my team when Greninja is a better attacker, and Excadrill is a better spinner in general.
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Excadrill is easily the best Spinner, I agree, but Starmie has that needed speed to make sure those hazards are gone and still chase out or kill a few pokemon. Also, Timid Starmie I believe outruns Modest Greninja. You could run a Timid Nature (in turn limiting how hard it will hit), or Scarf it, but getting trapped in one move may not do Greninja any favors and is probably still better off with Life-Orb.
 
I'm intrigued by the Weakness Policy set. However Natural Cure isn't that useful since switching out makes you lose your stat boosts. Wouldn't it be better to actually focus on bulk with HP and Df with Cosmic Power and Substitute and abuse Analytic on top of your power boost? Also this may sound weird but what about

~ Recover
~ Cosmic Power
~ Pain Split
~ Brine/Scald

Pain Split is beneficial in that it doesn't matter what type (besides Ghost) your opponent is, Pain Split will do a number on their health while healing you as well and once they get low enough Brine becomes a 130 BP STAB move boosted by Analytic if going second off a +2 SpA. It's only walled by the rare Jellicent. You could possibly replace Recover with Pain Split, the recovery won't be as reliable but you're far likely to kill more things. There's probably a good combo somewhere.

Super gimmicky but I wanted to say it anyway. Skill Swap + Illuminate. Get something like a Magic Guard, Sap Sipper or Poison Heal lol
 
Okay am I missing something here? Why switch out on tyranitar if it has pursuit? Its still going to damage you, but not nearly as bad if you were to switch (Tho Tyranitar can run crunch, it likely has Pursuit to check Starmie some how?) This is what I don't get. Starmie has the power to 2HKO and same gomes for Tyranitar, so why is Tyranitar switching in on a Starmie?
 
Jaroda said:
I'm intrigued by the Weakness Policy set. However Natural Cure isn't that useful since switching out makes you lose your stat boosts. Wouldn't it be better to actually focus on bulk with HP and Df with Cosmic Power and Substitute and abuse Analytic on top of your power boost? Also this may sound weird but what about

~ Recover
~ Cosmic Power
~ Pain Split
~ Brine/Scald

Pain Split is beneficial in that it doesn't matter what type (besides Ghost) your opponent is, Pain Split will do a number on their health while healing you as well and once they get low enough Brine becomes a 130 BP STAB move boosted by Analytic if going second off a +2 SpA. It's only walled by the rare Jellicent. You could possibly replace Recover with Pain Split, the recovery won't be as reliable but you're far likely to kill more things. There's probably a good combo somewhere.

Super gimmicky but I wanted to say it anyway. Skill Swap + Illuminate. Get something like a Magic Guard, Sap Sipper or Poison Heal lol
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The benefit of Natural Cure is that if you run up against a stall set that Paralyzes/Poisons you during set up, you can switch out and come back in good as new after a teammate had taken out the stall. Obviously, the benefit of Natural Cure becomes counterproductive after Weakness Policy procs. There's definitely an argument to be made for using Analytic instead, thought I think Analytic tends to be the most useful on revenge kill sets.

Running mono attack water risks getting completely walled by anything with Water Absorb, Dry Skin, or Storm Drain. That's a little dangerous for a sweeping set.

Pain Split is an interesting idea, though. I bet you could come up with a set that runs Pain Split over Recover, and uses that + Ancient Power to stall out opponents while still damaging them and lure them into hitting you with a SE attack. I might try that sometime.
 
So the poke bank is a gift from god, yes it has introduced more competition for Starmie but it now allows for the use of the set I came up with early to be used. Been using this set on showdown and I have to say it has been working out very well for me.

BaitMie

Item: Choice Scarf
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Hydro Pump / Surf
- Rapid Spin
- Trick
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt / Ice Beam

At first look many would glide right over this move set and think it makes no sense. Before you do that let me explain. The basic Premise of this set is to force people to switch out their current pokemon and use Starmie to bait out walls that would usually counter Starmie. With the heavily defense oriented shift this gen has taken and all the ghost pokemon this is not that hard to find a candidate for this. Not just that but with Choice Scarf Starmie can also come in and grant you a surprise revenge kill against pokemon who expect to be fast then Starmie ( Thunderbolt to Greninja, Ice Beam to Novian and Dragon dance boosted pokemon ). Going to go into a much more detailed analysis now :P

Lets start off with Analytic (Raises the power of all moves by 30% if the wielder moves last). Most know of Starmie Speed and power, and start off by switching out their current pokemon. T-tar would get rip up from a 30%-40% boosted Hydro Pump even after the Nerf, then Starmie would get to hit T-tar first again for a double Hydro Pump. Have yet to do the damage calcs but I would believe this would take out the non-spD oriented T-tars. Hydro Pump Also severely damages other pursuit uses such as Scizor, and a Scizor that is not specialized in SpD will be 2HKO'd in most cases by this. Aegislash is Also servely Damaged by A 30%-40% Boosted Hydro Pump.

Psyshock is also a nice move to hit Ghost Types as well as the SpD walls. Mega-Gar would take heavy damage and I am pretty sure OHKO in most cases from a 30%-40% boosted Psyshock. Even if it didn't this brings me to the choice scarf possibility over life orb.

Choice Scarf, this would allow Starmie to do 2 very nice things. One it would allow it to out speed threats that are faster than it that attempted to switch into it thinking they could take a hit then out speed it for an easy kill. Mega-Aero, Jolteon, Greninja all fall into this category. The thing is, none of them can survive a 30% boosted hydro pump followed by a second hydro pump. Jolteon and Gengar cannot even withstand the double Psyshock. You have 4 of Starmie's counters taken care of right there. That leads me to trick, Special Walls and walls are running around every where and the thing is they all would be rendered almost useless with a choice scarf. With all the Walls running around it in this gen it should not be hard to find a great candidate to send choice scarf over to in exchange for some tasty leftovers. Now you have neutered an opponents wall that would have checked or countered Starmie and made Starmie more durable. If yoru using Life orb thunderbolt or ice beam will do you more good then trick.


Rapid Spin, why not Rapid spin? with all the defense oriented teams relying on passive damage having a nice spinner is awesome. Which makes it even easier to bait out those annoying spin blockers and rip into them with an analytic boosted attack.

Basically this set makes it so there is no guaranteed way for your opponent to make a correct choice on how to deal with your Starmie. Do they switch to a faster sweeper? but if its faster because of choice scarf the sweeper may not survive the boosted attacks followed by another hit. If I try to pursuit trap it with a pursuit trapper, can the pursuit trapper survive a double hit? Do I switch to a spin blocker? but my spin blocker could get ripped apart by a boosted psyshock or hydro pump. Do I send out my wall? or is starmie going to trick it and make it useless for the rest of the game? The only sure fire way to defend against this set is a sucker punch. So if your team doesn't have a sucker puncher this move set is going to cost you a lot to go up against.

Putting your opponent in this kind of position where they have no clue what the right move to make is, and just have to guess basically is just what any player strides for. This set allows Starmie to use the defensive oriented shift to its advantage rather then being a disadvantage for it.
 
I personally use a gen IV Life Orb sweeper.

Starmie@Life Orb
Ability: Natural Cure
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA/4 SpD/252 Spe
Moves:
-Recover
-Thunderbolt
-Ice Beam
-Hydro Pump/Psyshock

So far the only issue I've had with this set is getting OHKO'd by electric types. But with Hydro Pump as a standard STAB (that surprisingly rarely misses for me) and Ice Beam and Thunderbolt for coverage, this set is like a swiss army knife. Capable of hitting just about everything for neutral damage and using Recover to get the HP from LO use back. I use this set to great effectiveness against most people and have only had the Electric-type problem. heh. Psyshock could be swapped out for Hydro Pump for alternative and more reliable STAB I suppose, which would give an easier time with Poison for fairy-type teammates and to take out AV Conk while losing the ability to take down steel types.
 
My turn.

Starmie is a great pokemon. Its amazing Speed, and respectable base 100 Special Attack. Like most pokemon with this combination, he suffers from four move syndrome. And after suffering this, suffers from having to exchange one of those moves for Rapid Spin. However, Starmie has plenty of different niches in the OU metagame. Of course, starmie does have noticable flaws. Firstly, its defenses are absolutely pathetic. No matter how much one invests in defenses, it will never be worth it. It also suffers from 4, very common weaknesses.

This is a set that I don't believe has been mentioned yet, and I think it is much better as an anti-lead:

starmie.gif


Starmie
Item: Choice Scarf
Nature: Timid
Ability: Analytic
EVs: 248 HP, 32 Def, 4 Spa, 220 Spd
- Trick
- Scald
- Recover
- Rapid Spin

This set is basically a varient of the bulky rapid spin - same EVs, and almost same build. However, this set is a lead, especially against skarmory, a big OU lead. Typically, you would want to start by tricking the choice scarf to skarmory/any other OU lead, and then rapid spin whatever hazards they have already set up. This fucks them over for the rest of the match, and making it easier to be clean of hazards. Starmie needs 220 Speed EVs and a Timid nature to outspeed a max speed Latias and max speed gengar. Scald is a great move for this set, as starmie with 4 spatk is 237 SpAtk, and in the scenario the lead wants to switch back in with choice scarf to get a dumb revenge kill, Starmie should usually outlive it and get an analytic boosted scald. Recover is great if starmie gets a burn off with scald, but still is a reliable for recovery.

Here are some calcs to show how you are safe against a leads offensive moves:

0 Atk Skarmory Brave Bird vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 118-141 (36.5 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

You can recover that away.

4 Atk Hippowdon Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 132-156 (40.8 - 48.2%) -- 6.3% chance to 2HKO after sandstorm damage

252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 32 Def Starmie: 204-240 (63.1 - 74.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


I think this disproves and proves my points - I mentioned earlier that starmie is much too frail, but I also mentioned that this set would negate potential OHKOs.
 
Would Kasib Berry on Starmie work?

Right now, Starmie tries to get past Aegislash by using Life Orb, Analytic and Hydro Pump to 2HKO it on the switch. But if Aegislash uses Shadow Sneak, Starmie risks being 1HKO'd after entry hazards and Life Orb recoil.

With Kasib Berry, Starmie might not even be 2HKO'd, and it can still 1HKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade with Hydro Pump after prior damage.

It's kind of gimmicky, but Starmie needs a way to beat the most popular spinblocker.
 
Toljik said:
Would Kasib Berry on Starmie work?

Right now, Starmie tries to get past Aegislash by using Life Orb, Analytic and Hydro Pump to 2HKO it on the switch. But if Aegislash uses Shadow Sneak, Starmie risks being 1HKO'd after entry hazards and Life Orb recoil.

With Kasib Berry, Starmie might not even be 2HKO'd, and it can still 1HKO 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade with Hydro Pump after prior damage.

It's kind of gimmicky, but Starmie needs a way to beat the most popular spinblocker.
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Starmie would still like a Life Orb over some one-use berry. Despite stopping a Shadow Sneak from fainting you, the absence of Life Orb will be a large problem for Starmie in the long run fainting other pokemon with one hit. To summarize, Kasib Berry is not a good idea on Starmie.

However, you could put this set in the Underrated/Creative sets thread.
 
Um... Hello, I've actually come up with a bit of a gimmicky Starmie set, that helps it adapt to the metagame of OU utilizing Reflect Type. Hehe, it's it's still a work in progress so yeah... It's proabbly not that viable but I hope it's worth looking at.

ReflectStar
Item: Leftovers/Life Orb/
Nature: Timid (+Spe/-Att)
Ability: Natural Cure/Analytic
EVs: 252 Spe/252 SpD or 252 Def/4 SpA

Moveset:
-Scald
-Psyshock
-Reflect Type
-Recover/Rapid Spin/Thunder Wave/HP Fire

Well, we all know Starmie can't exactly take hits well as the next guy but this sorta remedies it and helps Starmie to be able to take a hit and hit back, but not exactly as strong. The main purpose is to force out certain Pokemon, such as Assualt Vest T-tar or Ferrothorn, using Reflect Type so that you can take the hits and dish it back in heavy doses. With the ability to heal off damage and status and even make use of your opponent's weather Starmie could potentially keep your opponent from setting up while you attack each and every Pokemon.

The 252 Spe is to make sure you can pull this Reflect Type off most Pokemon that isn't called Greninja and aren't Scarfers. Main premise is to, switch in (with people thinking you're going to Revenge-kill), pull off a Reflect Type and throw the opponent off. Use an Attack to attack the Pokemon that switches in and then Reflect Type the next one and rinse and repeat.

This set has the potential to turn Starmie into a hard hitingwall of sorts if a Sand Streamer comes in and you Reflect Type so you can gain the SpD boost. Starmie also can gain some unique typings such as Steel/Fairy, one of the most coolest typings in the game if Klefki didn't have Prankster. While this will probably more useful in Triples and Doubles, it canf are well in Singles too.

The last move slot can be Recover if you want to keep it going, Rpaid Spin if you really don't want to use defog, Thunder Wave to get rid annyoing pests which could be fast than Starmie and HP fire to deal with anything Grass Type or Steel. I'll need to look into this more but I will try my best to see if it will work. So far, it only looks good on paper.
 
You lose STAB, a turn and a moveslot to gain a resistance that will probably just make the opponent just switch pokemon. Doesn't seem worth it imo.
 
Offensive Starmie is largely outclassed by Greninja. But it still has a niche if you use it as a bulky spinner with Recover.
 
Spin and switch out though? It won't want to stay in against a counter anyway.

Scarf Excadrill has the same problem but that is popular enough.

BenTheDemon said:
Offensive Starmie is largely outclassed by Greninja. But it still has a niche if you use it as a bulky spinner with Recover.
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So why is the official Smogon line that bulky Starmie is not worth bothering with?
 
kabbes said:
Spin and switch out though? It won't want to stay in against a counter anyway.

Scarf Excadrill has the same problem but that is popular enough.
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Maybe people wanting a choice locked spinner just choose excadrill instead of Starmie, I think since it takes only 3% of its health on SR, it easier to switch in and out, Starmie on the other hand takes 12% so limiting the number of switch ins if it has to use a attack because of a spinblocker, also Excadrill has more resistances so it's easier to switch in. Excadrill needs that speed more than Starmie needs power too, 88 speed isn't enough to outspeed common threats
 
OK, I've spent some time playing with Starmie now and I think it's been a bit harshly treated.

Starmie's perception problem in this Gen is that it is Not Greninja. It is viewed as Greninja-light, basically.

On the face of it, this makes a certain amount of sense. Greninja's special attack is 103 to Starmie's 100. A very slight difference but a difference nonetheless. Greninja's speed is 122 to Starmie's 115. So: stronger and faster.

Meanwhile, the viable movesets -- at least the primary ones -- are really very similar. First two: STAB Hydro Pump in slot one and STAB Dark Pulse versus STAB Psyshock in slot two. There are advantages to Dark Pulse and advantages to Psyshock -- it really comes down to what team is built around it.

Meanwhile, both run Ice Beam in slot 3. STAB Ice Beam for Greninja and non-STAB for Starmie. So that's a third advantage out of three so far for Greninja. You can see why he is preferred!

But this is where things get more interesting. Because with Greninja's STAB for Ice Beam comes a serious disadvantage: Protean turns Greninja into Ice. And because it is so fast, it tends to be Ice when it is hit in response (if its opponent is still alive at that point). This is certainly something that can be played around by a smart opponent. Furthermore, Ice Beam is most commonly used where

Greninja also tends to be very vulnerable to priority revenge killing. If it is dark or ice then priority fighting is supereffective. If it is ice then priority steel is supereffective. Fighting and steel are both ineffective against Starmie. Starmie also has that extra bit of bulk that can make a difference against low power ineffective priority moves. Priority Brave Bird murders both, but you can't have everything.

So, so far we have one pokemon that generally outclasses another, but still with a few disadvantages. So far, so what?

It's all about the fourth slot. Ever since last October, I've heard time and again, "I wish Greninja had Rapid Spin". Well: here is Greninja with Rapid Spin! Seriously: if Greninja had Rapid Spin then what would you do with it? Would you basically run a Stamie set? Probably.

So if you want a Rapid Spin Greninja then you basically have what you want in this little starfish. Going back to those stats: 103 vs 100 -- does that really make a blind bit of difference? And the extra speed -- how many mons does that 122 actually outspeed versus the 115? A few, yes. But in most match-ups, it makes precious little difference.

And, of course, Starmie also gets your choice of analytic or natural cure on top of all that too, which is very nice for either murdering the switch in or shrugging off status.

Starmie is a cleaner/revenge killer with rapid spin. Its most direct comparitor is a bit better as a cleaner/revenge killer but it doesn't have rapid spin.

Other rapid spinners, meanwhile, are different enough as to mean that they aren't really comparable. Excadrill is a truly brilliant cleaner/revenge killer/rapid spinner... but it's ground/steel and runs SlideQuake. If I am running Mamoswine, for example, I may well not want to run Excadrill with it. Starmie, on the other hand, may fit well.

Seriously -- if Greninja with Rapid Spin would be so great then why is Starmie with Rapid Spin, which is almost identical, considered so mediocre?
 
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kabbes said:
OK, I've spent some time playing with Starmie now and I think it's been a bit harshly treated.

Starmie's perception problem in this Gen is that it is Not Greninja. It is viewed as Greninja-light, basically.

On the face of it, this makes a certain amount of sense. Greninja's special attack is 103 to Starmie's 100. A very slight difference but a difference nonetheless. Greninja's speed is 122 to Starmie's 115. So: stronger and faster.

Meanwhile, the viable movesets -- at least the primary ones -- are really very similar. First two: STAB Hydro Pump in slot one and STAB Dark Pulse versus STAB Psyshock in slot two. There are advantages to Dark Pulse and advantages to Psyshock -- it really comes down to what team is built around it.

Meanwhile, both run Ice Beam in slot 3. STAB Ice Beam for Greninja and non-STAB for Starmie. So that's a third advantage out of three so far for Greninja. You can see why he is preferred!

But this is where things get more interesting. Because with Greninja's STAB for Ice Beam comes a serious disadvantage: Protean turns Greninja into Ice. And because it is so fast, it tends to be Ice when it is hit in response (if its opponent is still alive at that point). This is certainly something that can be played around by a smart opponent. Furthermore, Ice Beam is most commonly used where

Greninja also tends to be very vulnerable to priority revenge killing. If it is dark or ice then priority fighting is supereffective. If it is ice then priority steel is supereffective. Fighting and steel are both ineffective against Starmie. Starmie also has that extra bit of bulk that can make a difference against low power ineffective priority moves. Priority Brave Bird murders both, but you can't have everything.

So, so far we have one pokemon that generally outclasses another, but still with a few disadvantages. So far, so what?

It's all about the fourth slot. Ever since last October, I've heard time and again, "I wish Greninja had Rapid Spin". Well: here is Greninja with Rapid Spin! Seriously: if Greninja had Rapid Spin then what would you do with it? Would you basically run a Stamie set? Probably.

So if you want a Rapid Spin Greninja then you basically have what you want in this little starfish. Going back to those stats: 103 vs 100 -- does that really make a blind bit of difference? And the extra speed -- how many mons does that 122 actually outspeed versus the 115? A few, yes. But in most match-ups, it makes precious little difference.

Starmie is a cleaner/revenge killer with rapid spin. Its most direct comparitor is a bit better as a cleaner/revenge killer but it doesn't have rapid spin.

Other rapid spinners, meanwhile, are different enough as to mean that they aren't really comparable. Excadrill is a truly brilliant cleaner/revenge killer/rapid spinner... but it's ground/steel and runs SlideQuake. If I am running Mamoswine, for example, I may well not want to run Excadrill with it. Starmie, on the other hand, may fit well.

Seriously -- if Greninja with Rapid Spin would be so great then why is Starmie with Rapid Spin, which is almost identical, considered so mediocre?
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Teams that rely on hazards use Aegislash to spin block. Greninja with rapid spin would be able to beat Aegislash. Starmie can't beat Aegislash. Therefore, Starmie sucks.
 
effyouzion said:
Teams that rely on hazards use Aegislash to spin block. Greninja with rapid spin would be able to beat Aegislash. Starmie can't beat Aegislash. Therefore, Starmie sucks.
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Analytic Starmie 2HKOs Aegislash on the switch in. Some counter!

Either way, however, 75% of teams do not pack Aegislash, and Greninja is vulnerable to the Sacred Sword OHKO too. The answer is to bring an Aegislash check with you and eliminate it first.

One difficult spinblocker does not by itself undo all the other benefits.
 
kabbes said:
Analytic Starmie 2HKOs Aegislash on the switch in. Some counter!

Either way, however, 75% of teams do not pack Aegislash, and Greninja is vulnerable to the Sacred Sword OHKO too. The answer is to bring an Aegislash check with you and eliminate it first.

One difficult spinblocker does not by itself undo all the other benefits.
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75% of teams not using Aegislash is irrelevant. The ones that want to keep hazards up (i.e.: the ones that you actually need to spin against) use Aegislash. And that 2hko doesn't matter when Aegis is using shadow sneak, which Starmie is weak to. Once you combine the shadow sneak damage, 2 rounds of life orb recoil and the fact that Starmie is switching into hazards, he is going to be dead before he can spin.
 
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