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Pokémon Starmie
- Thread starter DarklingNinja
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Your main sweepers that really hate rocks (Talonflame, Volc, Dragonite) aren't weak to fire, and of those only Dragonite is weak to ice. Even with the ice weakness, Latias would have no problem sponging most special ice beams, while Skarm could handle any physical ice attacks. Finding a defogger to fit your team is easy, while having to resort to mega Blastoise (who is less bulky than Suicune, doesn't have leftovers and takes up your mega slot) to make an argument for spinners just shows how much spinners fell off this gen.
To tie it back to the topic: all of these are reasons why I think Starmie is screwed this gen.
To tie it back to the topic: all of these are reasons why I think Starmie is screwed this gen.
It's still got fantastic coverage and speed, but I do see a defensive shift for it this generation.
Is there any hope for it abusing Reflect Type to adapt to the metagame? It seems an easy way to overcome being pursuit bait. That being said, it would mean it's only got two attacking options and sometimes wouldn't even have STAB, so I'm not sure how effective it would be. Reckon it's worth running some calcs?
The starfish has been brilliant and a favourite of mine since Misty slaughtering me with it in Gen 1, so it'd be a shame to see it drop.
Is there any hope for it abusing Reflect Type to adapt to the metagame? It seems an easy way to overcome being pursuit bait. That being said, it would mean it's only got two attacking options and sometimes wouldn't even have STAB, so I'm not sure how effective it would be. Reckon it's worth running some calcs?
The starfish has been brilliant and a favourite of mine since Misty slaughtering me with it in Gen 1, so it'd be a shame to see it drop.
At its core, its a speedy rapid spinner that can check the still overly popular fighting types.
Its surroundings may have changed, but that has hardly changed what it can do. Starmie functioned well without weather buffs anyway, and scald will happily take the place of the nerfed Hydro Pump. Slower? Give it a scarf.....
Its surroundings may have changed, but that has hardly changed what it can do. Starmie functioned well without weather buffs anyway, and scald will happily take the place of the nerfed Hydro Pump. Slower? Give it a scarf.....
The problem is that all of the potential defoggers that you mentioned will be affected and potentially be compromised if you give them defog.
Latias will lose a coverage move or roost. Skarmory will lose whirlwind or spikes/stealth rock. Gliscor will lose subtoxic, dancepass, taunt or coverage. Scizor can't CB or SD with roost.
Like punchshroom said, you have to make your entry hazard remover fit in your team, meaning you can't just jam defog in a pokemon's existing role.
Latias will lose a coverage move or roost. Skarmory will lose whirlwind or spikes/stealth rock. Gliscor will lose subtoxic, dancepass, taunt or coverage. Scizor can't CB or SD with roost.
Like punchshroom said, you have to make your entry hazard remover fit in your team, meaning you can't just jam defog in a pokemon's existing role.
I wasn't necessarily justifying Starmie itself (although it's still the best spinner; you don't just switch things into LO Analytic Starmie), moreso justifying Rapid Spin over Defog. Yes there are a lot of Defog users, but Defog can be played around beyond "bring in a Ghost." Rapid Spin is easier to use - you don't have to worry about when you're going to set up your own hazards and you don't have to worry about Taunt. You can even pack an Assault Vest Donphan / Forretress / etc. to take on certain spinblockers more easily, which you can't do with Defog. The good spinners have ways around spinblockers - Forretress has Volt Switch to get around Jellicent / Aegislash / Grassblockers and 2HKOs Gengar (and MegaGar) with Gyro Ball. Starmie has its massive LO Analytic-boosted attacks, which make it incredibly difficult to switch in on. Donphan loses to some spinners but Aegislash can't touch it without a mixed set (which incidentally just fails to KO) and MegaGengar (assuming it has evolved) can't switch in for fear of Earthquake, and can't OHKO Donphan. Excadrill just kills shit. Meanwhile, three of the "bulky Defoggers" you mentioned all get checked or countered by Heatran... a Pokemon that commonly carries Stealth Rock. Latias and Skarmory are both threatened by Tyranitar (certain variants in Skarm's case), another common user of Stealth Rock. Gliscor doesn't mind either of these but if it has Defog it can't reliably beat Mamoswine, another user of Stealth Rock. I guess what I'm saying is that even if Defog is easier to physically use (aside from the whole clearing your own hazards too thing), users of Rapid Spin have more tools to both avoid spinblockers and to beat hazard setters.
I also never said Rapid Spin was better than Defog specifically on hyper offense. I said that Defog was not strictly better than Rapid Spin. I am also saying now that Rapid Spin is not strictly better than Defog. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but one is not inherently better than the other.
Sorry for derailing the thread.
I also never said Rapid Spin was better than Defog specifically on hyper offense. I said that Defog was not strictly better than Rapid Spin. I am also saying now that Rapid Spin is not strictly better than Defog. Both have their advantages and disadvantages, but one is not inherently better than the other.
Sorry for derailing the thread.
That just makes Starmie into a Normal-type, which doesn't give it the advantage given by Reflect Type (resists Pursuit now!).
Reflect Type also has the hilarious effect of copying MegaGengar's typing as it switches in, letting it escape Shadow Tag.
Focus Blast ._.
Camouflage is dependent on the battlefield. Battling in a building will turn Starmie into a Normal-type with Camouflage (don't quote me on this).
Fair enough. I never meant to say defog will always be better than spinning, but in the case of bulky offense and stall (which is where Pokebank seems to be headed) using a defogger is more reliable over the course of a match than using a spinner. It's pretty easy to get something like Skarm in on a physical attacker that can't touch it, defog as they switch to Heatran or whatever, and now you can bring Dragonite in for free while they put up rocks again.
If you're using Starmie, you can't mispredict or you're toast. If you rapid spin while they switch to (mega) Gengar or Aegislash, those hazards are staying up and you're either forced out or dead. If you decide to surf that Scizor, thinking they would switch to their spinblocker, you're dead and their hazards are still up. Not a huge deal last gen, because that's just how games went. This gen tho, I feel it's better to have a margin for error.
wat
Dude, stall relies on passive damage, and entry hazards [and phasing with them] are a huge part of that. Stall teams do not want Defog.
Futhermore, there's a cool new spinner on the block; Mega Blastoise, which all stall teams in the tiers it's allowed in should consider, as it's got nice bulk, and a lot of spinblockers don't want to switch in for fear of its powerful, Mega-Launcher boosted Dark Pulse coming from 165 base Special Attack. If you wanna take the "cool" thing literally, Avalugg's an option, I suppose, with ridiculous defence + Sturdy, reliable recovery, and Rapid Spin, as well as a good attack stat for a supporter, but its typing and special defence keep it in check.
And it's not like "getting something in to set up Stealth Rock again" is exactly as easy as you describe. You either have to come in when something of yours is down, or switch in and take a hit. Either way, you'll take another to set up your rocks, when the opponent could easily smash you, switch to something that can smash you [as now they have no reason not to switch, due to your hazards being removed!], or set up all over you. If you're saying you should use hazards + Defog, it's somewhat like using Hyper Beam, as setting up rocks again is essentially the rest turn from such a move. And that's just SR - forget Sticky Web [which has such small distribution, and your setter's likely to be gone by then], and Spikes [which take a while to set up]
Yeah, I see Defog having a use, I use it myself, but people are definitely underestimating what the lack of SR can do to you. If you didn't have on your team last gen, your team was considered sub-par, no matter what type it was [except maybe Baton Pass]. It was considered to be broken by a lot of people. SR damage in calcs is considered standard.
tl;dr people are gay for defog and it's not as good as you think, a la gen 4 evire, gen 5 haxorus and gen 6 aegislash.
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We have many durable SR users such as Ferrothorn who have plenty of safe switch-ins and can set up rocks multiple times in the match.
There's a reason suicide SR leads such as Aerodactyl are almost obsolete now.
tl;dr use Defog with bulky SR users and you'll be fine.
There's a reason suicide SR leads such as Aerodactyl are almost obsolete now.
tl;dr use Defog with bulky SR users and you'll be fine.
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No one's stupid enough to switch Gengar into Starmie and LO Hydro Pump 2HKOs Scizor. So you need prediction to use Rapid Spin effectively; welcome to the world of Pokémon.
As has been said before, Defog removes YOUR hazards as well, which not only benefits your Volcarona, Dragonite and Talonflame, but also negatively affects your sweeper's role to sweep. Defog has an opportunity cost. Rapid spin doesn't.
Offensive teams will still want a spinner where Starmie will shine and bulky offense will want a spinner to maintain their entry hazards and set up your sweeper(s). Starmie is going nowhere.
I feel like this conversation is going in circles. There's only so much "defog is good!" "but defog clears your hazards!" we can go through. I explained why I think Starmie is dropping down, and I'll just leave it to the people to decide.
You dont know what opportunity cost is. Rapid Spin DOES have an opportuity cost: you wont be attacking in the turn you use it. I know, the same applies to Defog.
I have a builky offense team that has defog crobat. Its curretly 20-0 and i use 0 hazards. I curretly got 1800 ladder points.
But i dot think starmie got that nerf because of defog only. I thik trevenant + aegislash + rotom are much biger reasons. Gengar also is now easily able to outspeed and trap her. Add to that list that hydro pump and thunder got double nerfed. IMO the only buff starmie received this game was the decrease in ferro's usage.
You say that, but it's completely untrue. I already posted the calcs showing Starmie easily 2HKO's even the bulkiest Ghost that dares to switch in. Aegislash is the only one that can effectively spinblock Starmie since it can threaten with priority Shadow Sneak, but even Aegis will be crippled on the way in:
252 SpA Life Orb Analytic Starmie Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Aegislash: 177-211 (58.22 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
People are seriously underestimating the power of LO Analytic-boosted attacks from Starmie. Even with the power nerf it still hits incredibly hard, and nothing wants to switch into it. Anything that can comfortably switch in (SpD Rotom, Blissey, etc) can't stop it from doing spinning, so it still fills its role very effectively.
Starmie's advantage as a Spinner is its Speed, meaning even if it's on its last legs it can get rid of the hazards before it gets finished off, unlike Forretress, Donphan and even Excadrill (without Sand). That said, Starmie faces severe competition from Greninja as an all-out attacker now. It may boast some advantages in Psyshock, Recover and Trick, but otherwise Starmie should be using Rapid Spin all the time now to avoid being outclassed.
Tho I can see a Scarfed or LO making it a decent sweeper/Renenge killer too in some ways.
Offensive LO is still Starmie's bread and butter set this gen. Since Greninja outclasses Starmie as a pure special sweeper this gen, it should always run Rapid Spin to stand out since, AS WE ALL KNOW, Greninja does not learn Rapid Spin. >.>
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
Rapid Spin is Starmie's biggest asset, allowing it to support your team by removing hazards. One of Starmie's biggest advantages over other common users of Rapid Spin is that it can defeat every spinblocker in the game with the correct coverage move. Even the most defensive Ghost-types cannot safely switch into an Analytic, Life Orb boosted attack.
STAB Hydro Pump is Starmie's strongest option and deals heavy damage to the ever-present Aegislash. Ice Beam is also a must-have attack, as it deals with the other new spinblockers, Gourgeist and Trevenant, on top of old threats such as Garchomp. The final slot is a tossup between Psyshock and Thunderbolt, but Psyshock is currently the better option because it is Starmie's only way to deal solid damage to Mega Venusaur and Blissey/Chansey, as well as guarantee an OHKO on Roserade. Thunderbolt can KO Gyarados, but it will be more useful once Jellicent is released post-Pokebank.
EDIT: a few more calcs to illustrate Psyshock's usefulness:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Roserade: 164-195 (50.61 - 60.18%) -- 86.33% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Roserade: 382-452 (117.9 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 281-331 (43.09 - 50.76%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur: 91-109 (25 - 29.94%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.17 - 58.51%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO
Starmie @ Life Orb
Ability: Analytic
Nature: Timid
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Psyshock / Thunderbolt
Rapid Spin is Starmie's biggest asset, allowing it to support your team by removing hazards. One of Starmie's biggest advantages over other common users of Rapid Spin is that it can defeat every spinblocker in the game with the correct coverage move. Even the most defensive Ghost-types cannot safely switch into an Analytic, Life Orb boosted attack.
STAB Hydro Pump is Starmie's strongest option and deals heavy damage to the ever-present Aegislash. Ice Beam is also a must-have attack, as it deals with the other new spinblockers, Gourgeist and Trevenant, on top of old threats such as Garchomp. The final slot is a tossup between Psyshock and Thunderbolt, but Psyshock is currently the better option because it is Starmie's only way to deal solid damage to Mega Venusaur and Blissey/Chansey, as well as guarantee an OHKO on Roserade. Thunderbolt can KO Gyarados, but it will be more useful once Jellicent is released post-Pokebank.
EDIT: a few more calcs to illustrate Psyshock's usefulness:
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 136+ SpD Roserade: 164-195 (50.61 - 60.18%) -- 86.33% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Roserade: 382-452 (117.9 - 139.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 281-331 (43.09 - 50.76%) -- 59.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Venusaur: 91-109 (25 - 29.94%)
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 179-213 (49.17 - 58.51%) -- 98.05% chance to 2HKO
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I think a really underrated perk of Starmie is that while MegaGengar can easily trap and check it, regular Gengar not only fails to check, but is tantamount to suicide if sent to check Starmie. In fact, Starmie's the only spinner who's guaranteed to outspeed and OHKO Gengar after being spinblocked, even if Gengar megavolves on the turn it uses Psyshock.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (163.74 - 193.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 343-406 (130.91 - 154.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A sufficiently aware player can use Starmie's mere presence to keep Gengar on the bench, by threatening to swap Starmie in when they predict Gengar switching in.
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 429-507 (163.74 - 193.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def (custom): 343-406 (130.91 - 154.96%) -- guaranteed OHKO
A sufficiently aware player can use Starmie's mere presence to keep Gengar on the bench, by threatening to swap Starmie in when they predict Gengar switching in.
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