STAB STABmons

Faux Focalors Furina said:
Thanks. Will definetly try the ev spreads once the new changes are implemented into PS! But to avoid this being a worthless reply. I think Ogerpon Teal will potenitally be a big counter to lando-t but is then countered by potential lokixs and toxapex.
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It reallt depends on what set the Lando-t is running. If it scarfed, it always beats Ogerpon Teal, defensive Lando-t might lose Ogerpon Teal but I'm not sure. I feel Ogerpon-cornerstone is gonna become a more important threat in the metagame, but a more balanced one than Hearthflame
 
Post Survey Ban Slate!

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As can be seen by the result, Damp rock, Jet Punch, Combat Torque, Magical Torque, and Glacial Lance all remain free whilst Astral Barrage is restricted and Kingambit is banned!

Here are my thoughts, any of the council can chime in on their opinions.

I voted (Y) to Damp Rock as I feel rain is just too potent in general even with Electro Shot being gone. Archaludon is such an amazing addition to rain both defensively and offensively, capable of running a specially defensive AV set yet remain powerful and able to setup in two different ways (Stamina & Body Press + Electro Shot & STABs). I believe it is broken, as it can brute force through most answers and that the usual response in banning Damp Rock is the key to reining in the archetype.

I voted (N) to Jet Punch, like... how is this even broken.... Palafin is non-existent, Urshifu is good but has 4mss depending on set, Barraskewda primarily relies on Surging Strikes and Close Combat...

Voted (N) on Combat Torque, fighting types are extremely easy to answer in STABmons, and the para chance doesn't change this dynamic and is more a nuisance then anything and not the reason people run it (STABmons uses it for it non-contact good damage), plus Covert Cloak is amazing so...

Voted (N) for magical torque, again the secondary effect is just annoying, and only prominent user is Iron Valiant whom if there is a problem to be had is the reason.

Voted (N) Astral Barrage... this one kinda baffles me, what ghost type even uses it that is relevant? Gengar is decent but not broken, Skeledirge and Sinistcha similarly are decent but again not broken, not even sure why it was voted to be banned but alas it is, hopefully some others on the council can explain why either here or in the discord. (I sincerely hope it isn't some twisted desire to unban Gholdengo as I have to question that line of logic as TL of the OM section...)

Voted (Y) for Kingambit, thing has always be extremely strong, capable of lategame turnovers , breaking so many things, and being an unhealthy element in regards tothe 50/50's it forces.

Voted (N) on Glacila Lance, Weavile is the only relevant things and whilst Mamoswine is a beast it has constraints that hold it back (speed), Kyurem would broken regardless, Baxcalibur similarly so...

Whether Gholdengo is freed because of the Astral Barrage ban remains to be seen, but it won't happen now.

Pinging dhelmise to let them know of the incoming pull request.
 
I hope this post finds you well,

There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.

First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)

Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?

Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.

We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.

I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.

Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
 
Fissure said:
I hope this post finds you well,

There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.

First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)

Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?

Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.

We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.

I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.

Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
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*Didn't get pinged for this, so apology for the slightly late response.

The council is a collection of individuals, generally we put up votes based on suggestions by fellow council people, on what we see here and in the discord, in replays, and through our own experiences. We come together and discuss our points of views, or reasons we believe x or y is broken and then vote.

My objective as TL is merely to facilitate the operations of the council and to ensure that nothing too policy diverging occurs, such as extremely suspect stuff like say banning a specific move on a specific Pokemon. I am not the dictator of the tier, and though technically my say is somewhat final that is not how I operate.


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Regarding Kingambit, that is definitely a strange one as you mentioned, fundamentally many in the council believe we need to make drastic changes to the tier in order for it to be both competitive and fun. That the OM is currently in a poor state and that action needs to be taken. As a result, we voted on things without reflection on the aforementioned survey and its scores. Kingambit has always been a mixed bag throughout the entirety of the generation, even having been banned at one point, this made quick voting it out particularly easy due to the aforementioned precedence. Our reasons are likely different depending on whom you ask in the council as we aren't a monolith, we each hold our own perspectives.

My reason for voting "yes" to the vote was purely related to a combination of the unhealthy lategame issues Kingambit creates as a result of Supreme Overlord and the high offensive power of Kingambit fully capable of turning over games that should by all accounts be solved purely due to a 50/50 dice roll.

For others, I am sure there are other reasons that they can explain, I know for some it was heavily influenced by their perception of Wicked Torque and it's fishy sleep effect, that in tandem with Swords Dance could theoretically let it beat even sturdy checks.

I will say that if we are wrong, and Kingambit isn't problematic we are fully willing to undo it, this much I will say though. This will especially be the case if Wicked Torque is banned in the future in which case Kingambit may be reintroduced into the tier.


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Regarding the reason to suspect one thing over another comes heavily down to the impact of what we are suspecting and the reasons for why. Ceaseless Edge was suspected because ultimately it has been a central force within STABmons since it entered the OM, simply quick banning it when there is no real subsitute to it would be a poor move on our part. In constrast Wicked Torque was already voted on and failed to pass in survey ban slate as such voting on it again immediately would seem like someone is intentionally trying to force something to be banned / restricted in spite of a fair vote.

Astral Barrage was not voted on then because it's primary abuser Gholdengo was coming underfire as a potentially broken element within the metagame. Ultimately, I told the rest of the council that it wasn't the offensive power of Gholdengo + Astral Barrage alone but rather a summation of all of Gholdengo's attributes that made it broken as a result the easiest and most straight forward thing to do was banning it.

Now I will say it's recent banning is particularly strange, and I allowed it to be voted on and as such am to blame for it being restricted post-gholdengo (with many having the intention of freeing Gholdengo as a result of this and in combianton with the recent Ceaseless restrict). We do plan to reaccess Gholdengo again in the coming week, but I have to say that this was a failure on my part as TL since we shouldn't be arbitrarily banning a move just to keep one thing in the tier...

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Just gonna be a frank, this is my first time doing a tallied survey with an average and it clearly shows. The numbers and their meaning and the reasons for why some were excluded despite being in the range for being voted are dependent on the move itself. Glacial Lance was not voted on because it is only featured on one prominent Pokemon, Weavile, and if you really wished to push it there'd be one more anti-meta pick in Mamoswine. The move is without a doubt powerful and has no downsides, it doesn't make contact, hits hard, and is one of the best offensive typings in the game yet ultimately its prominence and power is decided by the Pokemon. For this reason it wasn't voted on, and it's past abusers Chien-Pao, Baxcalibur and Kyurem were deemed broken with or without the move. Does this mean we will never vote on it, no it doesn't.

The title was simply referring to the first ban slate after the survey + survey ban slate (I realize it is confusing now that I look at it lol).


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The criteria itself is actually quite complex as we had no way of knowing whether people were viewing the moves in isolation or in context to the metagame itself. Ultimately if we viewed moves in isolation stuff like Glacial Lance would be flat out broken on a purely statistical scale, yet we can't do that, it is always a combination of elements that contribute to something being broken unless it is beyond the norm. Examples of things that are beyond the norm include Shed Tail and many boosting moves to name but two. I myself am always trying to find a balance between the influence of the move on the mon and the mon on the move.


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Currently, STABmons is in truly dire straits, and we all have our own ideas of what is the right direction both in regards to banning moves and banning pokemon whether one or the other takes precedence. I can't say I will always be right in my decisions as I am a flawed individual just trying to do their best, so call me out things if you feel there is a reason to do so.

We will try to be as flexible in the future as possible, that means if we have to unban a Pokemon(s) after a move ban to test it out, we will do so as we have unique circumstances to many other tiers and need to be able to change when necessary.

I hope I was clear with this, it has been turbulent as of late but if you need to talk to me specifically please do so here, on discord, or on PS.

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Unbans and Bans Pre-Other Metagame World Cup + Update
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So with the restriction of Ceaseless Edge, and Astral Barrage, we decided to Unban Gholdengo once more, in addition Wicked Torque is banned! Kingambit may be voted on at a later date but since it is a bit early to just instantly undo two bans (I mean it literally wasn't banned till yesterday) it will remain banned for at least a while yet.

On another note, we will be updating the VR in a few days and posting some rough samples (reminder you can post them here).

Pinging dhelmise to let them know about the pull request.


(Gia explanation time: reason some feel Wicked Torque deserved banning is because it could flip matches and proc sleep, and was an easy solution to some whereas other cases of sleep either are non-existent in practice (relic song) or was a similar status effect (freeze) that is problematic to tackle with our current policies in place.)
 
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can't wait for the kingambit vote later on at this mon really didn't deserve to be banned :(

stab was 2nd best meta to play in bo3 but it feels a bit MU reliant, rain is absurd and I often accepted that I would lose to it cuz I can't bring volcanion or clodsire every game and even w/o rain I feel like you just roll with stuff and hope you won't load into one of the things that destroy you - when that doesn't happen, games are actually cool, it just felt very frustrating bc 20% of the time I had fun and 80% I was just losing despite trying cool stuff.

same as in mnm though, kinda sad that it's dead here, no samples update since may, a VR that ngl has very little sense, I know OMs aren't in a good spot overall and I've had a lot of critics with other tiers like GG but at least a part of their council has been active and tried to make their tier live, I find it a bit sad to have so little interest over here, exacerbated by some weird tiering decisions that weren't even followed up

anyway, onto the teams I used during wcup

:sylveon: - :toxapex: - :walking wake: - :corviknight: - :volcanion: - :landorus-therian: - toxapex = broken and it's 99% of the time a bad idea to not use it, walking wake = broken breaker even though it would appreciate a knock user on that team, volcanion broken mon, takes advantage of toxapex and patches rain MU. Then Sylveon is the cool pick, we already loved that mon 1y ago and having court change is still broken, lando is mandatory scarf, not the craziest team but a bunch of solid stuff that makes this team good but not amazing

:iron boulder: - :landorus-therian: - :incineroar: - :toxapex: - :gholdengo: - :hydrapple: - man this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you build cool teams and then you load in a bad MU and you just cry. This team was like, really cool, and I really would have liked to have a good game with it. But the MU into Thundurus Rain was just bad, and I lost the 50/50 I needed to not lose and I couldn't play. That was not fun. Boulder is kinda bad bc ppl spams ting lu way more than I thought, specs hydrapple goated and I still don't know if Incineroar sucks or not (it probably does). Still got my boy pex bc it's broken

:zapdos: - :gholdengo: - :latios: - :toxapex: - :rillaboom: - :ting-lu: - this team was solid and sub np ghold is kinda good if you're able to wear down ting lu but well cornerstone is also broken so don't load into that haha. Not a cool team but it's solid

:great tusk: - :gholdengo: - :deoxys-speed: - :torterra: - :meloetta: - :bisharp: - no one allowed me to bring that team but it COOKED in tests. Idk why there's a Bisharp, it's probably to remind everyone that gambit is unfairly banned.

:pelipper: - :archaludon: - :thundurus-therian: - :barraskewda: - :ting-lu: - :gyarados: - best rain team of the world no cap. that archaludon set is NUTS (shoutout Palapapop for the set, and the team overall), Gyarados is GOAT, and rain is broken. 3 weeks spamming boring balance but that day I brought rain I found inner peace

:darkrai: - :zapdos: - :tyranitar: - :walking wake: - :toxapex: - :ogerpon-cornerstone: - idea 1 i had for finals, wanted to take advantage of Ivar's high Toxapex, Ttar, Rotom, and Ting Lu use, and that wwake is kinda good at it. Cornerstone is also broken, rest of the team is there at a first throw but I never really finished it. Still like the idea

:slowking: - :ting-lu: - :iron hands: - :moltres: - :corviknight: - :meloetta: - idea 2, wanted to build around around hands too lol cuz pex / ting lu / ttar you know that stuff, moltres to punish tusk, ting lu to koff its pads if necessary. Really slow team that relies a lot on hands being able to break which is not the case in that team (lunar dance latios was also an idea Siamato had but with Keldeo, was a good call). Also 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion

:keldeo: - :blissey: - :corviknight: - :latios: - :kommo-o: - :ting-lu: - finals team, keldeo cuz high pex / ttar / ting lu use, I didn't expect malignant chain to break my subs so the idea was useless lmao. rest of the team is FAT cuz it's kinda good, kommo-o is the only cornerstone check, blissey is funny ? and it went amazing into the game. Ting lu was slowking-g 1h before the game but then I realised i had no answers to ttar and also no ground and no dark and no knock off and ting lu is just good. 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion (I've heard that before), anyway Ivar is a real gamer so he doesn't bring stupid playstyles to win

unban gambit unban wicked torque ban rain ban SCARF MAMOSWINE thank you
 
Osake said:
can't wait for the kingambit vote later on at this mon really didn't deserve to be banned :(

stab was 2nd best meta to play in bo3 but it feels a bit MU reliant, rain is absurd and I often accepted that I would lose to it cuz I can't bring volcanion or clodsire every game and even w/o rain I feel like you just roll with stuff and hope you won't load into one of the things that destroy you - when that doesn't happen, games are actually cool, it just felt very frustrating bc 20% of the time I had fun and 80% I was just losing despite trying cool stuff.

same as in mnm though, kinda sad that it's dead here, no samples update since may, a VR that ngl has very little sense, I know OMs aren't in a good spot overall and I've had a lot of critics with other tiers like GG but at least a part of their council has been active and tried to make their tier live, I find it a bit sad to have so little interest over here, exacerbated by some weird tiering decisions that weren't even followed up

anyway, onto the teams I used during wcup

:sylveon: - :toxapex: - :walking wake: - :corviknight: - :volcanion: - :landorus-therian:- toxapex = broken and it's 99% of the time a bad idea to not use it, walking wake = broken breaker even though it would appreciate a knock user on that team, volcanion broken mon, takes advantage of toxapex and patches rain MU. Then Sylveon is the cool pick, we already loved that mon 1y ago and having court change is still broken, lando is mandatory scarf, not the craziest team but a bunch of solid stuff that makes this team good but not amazing

:iron boulder: - :landorus-therian: - :incineroar: - :toxapex: - :gholdengo: - :hydrapple: - man this is exactly what I'm talking about when I say you build cool teams and then you load in a bad MU and you just cry. This team was like, really cool, and I really would have liked to have a good game with it. But the MU into Thundurus Rain was just bad, and I lost the 50/50 I needed to not lose and I couldn't play. That was not fun. Boulder is kinda bad bc ppl spams ting lu way more than I thought, specs hydrapple goated and I still don't know if Incineroar sucks or not (it probably does). Still got my boy pex bc it's broken

:zapdos: - :gholdengo: - :latios: - :toxapex: - :rillaboom: - :ting-lu: - this team was solid and sub np ghold is kinda good if you're able to wear down ting lu but well cornerstone is also broken so don't load into that haha. Not a cool team but it's solid

:great tusk: - :gholdengo: - :deoxys-speed: - :torterra: - :meloetta: - :bisharp:- no one allowed me to bring that team but it COOKED in tests. Idk why there's a Bisharp, it's probably to remind everyone that gambit is unfairly banned.

:pelipper: - :archaludon: - :thundurus-therian: - :barraskewda: - :ting-lu: - :gyarados:- best rain team of the world no cap. that archaludon set is NUTS (shoutout Palapapop for the set, and the team overall), Gyarados is GOAT, and rain is broken. 3 weeks spamming boring balance but that day I brought rain I found inner peace

:darkrai: - :zapdos: - :tyranitar: - :walking wake: - :toxapex: - :ogerpon-cornerstone: - idea 1 i had for finals, wanted to take advantage of Ivar's high Toxapex, Ttar, Rotom, and Ting Lu use, and that wwake is kinda good at it. Cornerstone is also broken, rest of the team is there at a first throw but I never really finished it. Still like the idea

:slowking: - :ting-lu: - :iron hands: - :moltres: - :corviknight: - :meloetta: - idea 2, wanted to build around around hands too lol cuz pex / ting lu / ttar you know that stuff, moltres to punish tusk, ting lu to koff its pads if necessary. Really slow team that relies a lot on hands being able to break which is not the case in that team (lunar dance latios was also an idea Siamato had but with Keldeo, was a good call). Also 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion

:keldeo: - :blissey: - :corviknight: - :latios: - :kommo-o: - :ting-lu:- finals team, keldeo cuz high pex / ttar / ting lu use, I didn't expect malignant chain to break my subs so the idea was useless lmao. rest of the team is FAT cuz it's kinda good, kommo-o is the only cornerstone check, blissey is funny ? and it went amazing into the game. Ting lu was slowking-g 1h before the game but then I realised i had no answers to ttar and also no ground and no dark and no knock off and ting lu is just good. 6-0 by rain but that's what it costs to not run pex or volcanion (I've heard that before), anyway Ivar is a real gamer so he doesn't bring stupid playstyles to win

unban gambit unban wicked torque ban rain ban SCARF MAMOSWINE thank you
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We will be addressing everything including past bans in the survey in the coming weeks.

The samples are actually up to date just, no one submits despite me asking them so I have to upload some teams to fill the spots. Hopefully more people submit post-OMWC teams so I can cherry pick the highest quality ones that aren't tournament fish (some of yours may be picked).

Everything has been quite chaotic since the Tera ban, so we've been gradually chipping away at the tier and it's problems (it was way worse back post-OMPL).

I just hope we reach a state that maintains the sheer variety inherent to STABmons without becoming too centralized or matchup heavy.
 
Hello everyone, this is the first time posting something like this but I think it is the right time for this after OMWC and an apparently upcoming survey.

First off my teams from OMWC:

:meloetta: - :rillaboom: - :gholdengo: - :toxapex: -:landorus-therian: - :ogerpon-cornerstone: - Grassy Terrain Offense

This was the first team built for OMWC by me in a relatively unexplored meta since the changes after OMPL.

Meloetta is the main sweeper of the team with Esper Wing + Take Heart + Grassy Seed + Recover and Boomburst being super spammable.

Rillaboom is just broken with Flower Trick ignoring all punishments physical moves usually have to care about (Helmet, Static, Intimidate…)

Scarf Gholdengo gives this team some much-needed Speed while being able to trick one of the defensive answers like Ting-Lu in order to setup the Meloetta Sweep. Make It Rain can be Tachyon Cutter and Recover can be whatever.

Level 99 Toxapex is funny because the Toxapex Mirror comes up often and underspeeding to gain momentum is helpful. Having Toxapex as the only removal can make a couple Match Ups really stressfull but this team is pretty good into fat and these are usually the only ones that stack hazards.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone is one of my favorites of the tier, it also the last remaining masked Ogerpon.
The Rock Grass Stab Combination is insane as a breaker and Pyro Ball helps vs Steels like Ghold. Corv or Skarm. Diamond Storm + SD Boosts can also get out of hand quickly ending the game early.

Lando was just a really good filler since this team is pretty ground weak despite grassy terrain because of Headlong Rush while also providing Stealth Rocks since I didn’t want to run Stone Axe on Ogerpon. Imprison can be whatever again but its funny in the Mirror and denies hazards and recovery from other ground types.



:slowking: - :weezing-galar: - :zapdos: - :gholdengo: - :ting-lu: - :weavile: - Fsight CB Weavile Balance

This is probably the finest dish of the cooking and the overall best team in this post.

Slowking is cool because it underspeeds Toxapex while also setting up Future Sights for Weavile.

I don’t know if Weezing-Galar was ever used before but that Mon is insanely good since it disables AV Toxapex to recover itself with Neutralizing Gas while also walling Rillaboom and being able to defog on Gholdengo is incredible. Receiving Moonlight through Stabmons is also really appreciated turning it into a really good Mon.

Zapdos was here to wall Ground Types while also providing some momentum, yellow magic and finally hitting its flying moves.

Scarf Gholdengo is once again the best Speed Control here while having a generally broken type combination + ability. There is pretty much no reason to not use this mon if you still need some Speed and like keeping Stealth Rocks up.

Ting-Lu is the final defensive part of the core. It is already super good in Metagames without any recovery, now it has access to Shore Up and Parting Shot while walling the dominant Gholdengo and more or less every cheesy special attacker.

CB Weavile just clicks buttons. Having a contactless 120BP, 100ACC Ice Stab Move is a dream and there are barely any mons that don’t get 2shot, especially when Future Sight is up and Knock threatens to remove Heavy Duty Boots from other bulky walls.



:forretress: - :ogerpon-cornerstone: - :latios: - :gyarados: - :gholdengo: - :darkrai: - Forretress HO

I stole this Forretress idea from Fissure back in OMPL since Sturdy + Custap + Metal Burst is amazing. Forretress can remove any hazards on lead and/or gets Webs and/or Stealth Rocks up on lead, which is just super funny.

Ogerpon-Cornerstone does nearly the same as in the first team. Instead of having some small recovery and damage boost, this time it’s faster than everything with webs up.

Latios + Gholdengo are nice Eject Pack users to gather chip for easier cleaning while providing support with Healing Wish to heal up one of the sweepers and some yellow magic to disrupt opposing speedcontrol.

Gyarados is your main Healing Wish Abuser and a super scary sweeper with Punching Gloves boosted Jet Punch/Surging Strikes and Dragon Ascent as its first good Flying Stab. The only real way to punish it, is to chip it on the setup turn(s) and revenging it.

Darkrai is somewhat being slept on (haha!). The Speed Tier is really good and it gets access to so many coverage moves. Focus Blast/Thunder/Psychic are all good as well. On this team it makes most of your progress midgame.



:cloyster: - :iron valiant: - :volcarona: - :samurott-hisui: - :zamazenta: - :gholdengo: - Cloyster HO

I have absolutely no clue how I ended up with a Cloyster HO MIRROR in semifinals….??

Cloyster should probably be full Special Attack but anyways those 4 moves are broken and have barely any resistances in the tier. Life Orb Further amplifies the damage makes this an insane sweeper.

The main idea behind Iron Valiant was to use it as a progress maker during midgame since the opponent has to respect fighting coverage so not having it wouldn’t matter as much. This mainly trades a kill with sd into attack and hopefully a second one with Destiny Bond since no one expects the +2 Valiant to click Destiny Bond.

Volcarona is another Sweeper/Cleaner but unfortunately only the majority of its match ups are flip match ups. Either it’s good or walled by 3 mons but it still helps a lot against Rillaboom which dismantles this team so having Flame Body against Grassy Glide is incredibly helpful.

Samurott-Hisui is the Lead and gets off some spikes while preventing opposing hazards with Taunt and potentially gaining even more value with Memento.

Zama is still broken on the right teams and helps this team more vs priority spam while being able to spread some paralysis and get some surprise KO’s with Stone Edge on stuff like Zapdos or Moltres.

Finally, Air Balloon Gholdengo makes sure that Spikes stay up and acts as a stall breaker on this team. No steel move and recover is odd and can get a lot of surprise KO’s with its unusual coverage.



:umbreon: - :goodra-hisui: - :weezing-galar: - :zamazenta: - rotom-wash: - :gliscor: - Umbreon Goodra-H Balance

We cooked a 5 Star dish an hour before finals and yea idk what this even is

Umbreon is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the wish parting shot combination on such a bulky Mon and it worked really well in test games.

Goodra-Hisui is completely utterly insane and should not be used but I saw potential in the parting shot combination to recover such a bulky Mon like this. Doom Desire is also a nice and underrated tool and helps this team break through. With AV, this Mon eats everything and gets Knock Offs on many defensive pivots.

Weezing-Galar is amazing again, here helping with bulkier hazard stack teams.

Zamazenta serves as the main cleaner with Substitute + Bulk Up and getting wished back up by Umbreon after spreading paralysis on its potential checks beating them the 2nd time.

Rotom-Wash is really good as a breaker even though this is a rather unusual set with no recovery. Once again its recovery relies on Umbreon but Leftovers + Protect do the job. Burning Bulkwark Helps to lure Rillaboom since Weezing-Galar, Rotom’s Base Speed and Goodra Hisui all dissuade it from pressing its only non-contact Move burning it in the process.

Last but not least I decided for Gliscor as it helps vs Raging Bolt more than Landorus while getting Spikes up more reliably and having more passive healing. Beak Blast is a nice tool to help vs some choiced attackers.



The descriptions got shorter towards the end but I think I made the main idea behind each mon clear and sometimes there isn’t much to say. The tier is quite underexplored as Mons like Weezing-G, Umbreon or Goodra-H all hadn’t seen much usage before and performed excellent showing that there is a lot of hidden potential in this tier. I also barely reused any mons and there are often multiple mons for a certain roles making most teams pretty diverse, but all of it needs to be explored imo.

Now at the end I want to suggest some potential tiering decisions I already voiced in the Europe teamcord which could be considered to include in the survey (pretty please >.<)



BAN FLOWER TRICK, this is the roots of all evil (Lilligant-H, Ogerpon-Hearthflame, Ogerpon-Wellspring although this might still be broken, Rillaboom)

Ban Boomburst, 140BP 100Acc, this also unbans PZ(probably useless) and Zoroak-H (could be good)

Unban Dragapult, ik ik but both Dragon Energy and Astral Barrage have been banned making it way less dangerous on the special side. I think it should at least be tested

Unban Gambit, idek what he did but this seems to be getting discussed anyways

Suspect Gholdengo, Gholdengo was the main reason for the astral barrage ban, I think if Dragapult does not get unbanned I believe restricting Gholdengo is a better option than banning astral barrage since it is still very obnoxious

Suspect Ursaluna, not too sure about this one, might be trolling a bit but I can see it not being broken

Suspect Ursaluna Bloodmoon, if Boomburst gets banned I think this should be considered

Suspect Terapagos, only if Boomburst gets banned

Unban Tera, I think this tier needs it honestly but this requires a complete change of the meta


Finally, Shoutouts to SammyCe123 and Ivar57 who helped me building most of this heat stuff and to all the other people who gave input from time to time
 
So, as you will hear shortly with the survey release, there is a new sheriff in the STABmons council, NeonJolteonWasUsed is now the Tier Leader of STABmons!

As you may have noticed over the past 6 months my ability to focus on STABmons has waned due to a combination of factors, mostly IRL related but also related to my duty as TL of all OMs officially. Simply put I've been very busy and don't have the time and to an extent desire to put what I feel is necessary towards STABmons and it's resources, and thus Neon will take this duty from me. This is a full stepping down from council as well.

It has been fun, and I enjoyed it but I feel it is best that a new head is to lead STABmons for this gen and potentially longer.

(I am still OMTL btw, this isn't changing anytime in the foreseeable future.)
 
STABmons Fall Survey

As stated before, this is the survey mentioned. Your participation in this one is extremely important, and it is aimed to be as inclusive in what we've heard discussed as possible. If you have any interest in STABmons at all, I urge you whenever you get the chance to fill this out in order to help shape this tier's future.
​
On the topic of what has been stated before. I would like to express my gratitude to everyone on council who has helped this tier come as far as it had. Recently many had stepped down, FC, Palapop, and as you heard above, Giagantic. I intend to continue to carry this tier on to the absolute best of my ability. Gia, FC, Pala, thank you. As someone who has followed and loved this tier since Gen 7, it is an absolute honor to have worked alongside you all, even if we don't agree much in terms of tiering, I want you to know that working on council with you has been an absolute blast. Now leading the tier that I once held so dearly is certainly big shoes to fill, but I want to assure you all that I will do everything in my power fulfill this honor to the best of my ability. Once more, I extend my thanks to everyone on council, and everyone who has supported this tier for any amount of time. I will not let you down.

- (Hopefully) Your pal, Neon.
 
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