I think 248HP, 8DEF and 252SPD is good enough
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STAB STABmons
- Thread starter Giagantic
- Start date
Thanks. Will definetly try the ev spreads once the new changes are implemented into PS! But to avoid this being a worthless reply. I think Ogerpon Teal will potenitally be a big counter to lando-t but is then countered by potential lokixs and toxapex.
It reallt depends on what set the Lando-t is running. If it scarfed, it always beats Ogerpon Teal, defensive Lando-t might lose Ogerpon Teal but I'm not sure. I feel Ogerpon-cornerstone is gonna become a more important threat in the metagame, but a more balanced one than Hearthflame
Clefable was a Normal-type Pokemon up until Generation 5, it has access to every Normal type move added in generations 1 to 5, but not those added in generations 6 to 9
Ceaseless Edge has ceased to be! STABmons has restricted Ceaseless Edge to native users as a result of a blind vote! https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/stabmons-suspect-7-ceaseless-edge.3750943/post-10264373
Tagging dhelmise to let him know that I will be making the changes to the banlist/restrict list.
Tagging dhelmise to let him know that I will be making the changes to the banlist/restrict list.
Dark types (except Hsamu he is mega edgelord) can't be edge lords anymore, millions of rocks must use axes in honour of the ceased.
Post Survey Ban Slate!
As can be seen by the result, Damp rock, Jet Punch, Combat Torque, Magical Torque, and Glacial Lance all remain free whilst Astral Barrage is restricted and Kingambit is banned!
Here are my thoughts, any of the council can chime in on their opinions.
I voted (Y) to Damp Rock as I feel rain is just too potent in general even with Electro Shot being gone. Archaludon is such an amazing addition to rain both defensively and offensively, capable of running a specially defensive AV set yet remain powerful and able to setup in two different ways (Stamina & Body Press + Electro Shot & STABs). I believe it is broken, as it can brute force through most answers and that the usual response in banning Damp Rock is the key to reining in the archetype.
I voted (N) to Jet Punch, like... how is this even broken.... Palafin is non-existent, Urshifu is good but has 4mss depending on set, Barraskewda primarily relies on Surging Strikes and Close Combat...
Voted (N) on Combat Torque, fighting types are extremely easy to answer in STABmons, and the para chance doesn't change this dynamic and is more a nuisance then anything and not the reason people run it (STABmons uses it for it non-contact good damage), plus Covert Cloak is amazing so...
Voted (N) for magical torque, again the secondary effect is just annoying, and only prominent user is Iron Valiant whom if there is a problem to be had is the reason.
Voted (N) Astral Barrage... this one kinda baffles me, what ghost type even uses it that is relevant? Gengar is decent but not broken, Skeledirge and Sinistcha similarly are decent but again not broken, not even sure why it was voted to be banned but alas it is, hopefully some others on the council can explain why either here or in the discord. (I sincerely hope it isn't some twisted desire to unban Gholdengo as I have to question that line of logic as TL of the OM section...)
Voted (Y) for Kingambit, thing has always be extremely strong, capable of lategame turnovers , breaking so many things, and being an unhealthy element in regards tothe 50/50's it forces.
Voted (N) on Glacila Lance, Weavile is the only relevant things and whilst Mamoswine is a beast it has constraints that hold it back (speed), Kyurem would broken regardless, Baxcalibur similarly so...
Whether Gholdengo is freed because of the Astral Barrage ban remains to be seen, but it won't happen now.
Pinging dhelmise to let them know of the incoming pull request.
I hope this post finds you well,
There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.
First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)
Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?
Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.
We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.
I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.
Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
There has been a ton of mixed sentiments regarding the tier as of late, and instead of just adding my 2 cents to the mix, I would instead like to ask for transparency in regard to how the council goes about the decisions that are being made. On August 10th, a survey was released, and then on August 24th, the results to that survey were released to the community. In that survey, there are a few things I would like to bring up.
First, what does the score that an issue receives mean to the council? Let us look at Kingambit. Kingambit received a community average score of 6.12 and was given this statement "Not currently seen as problematic on average." As a result of such a score, it was not even included in the council votes that happened as a result of this survey. And yet, not even a month later, Kingambit was put up for a quick ban council vote with no prior announcement, and with no further community engagement regarding the mon (at least in this thread. I can't see every little thing that goes on in Discord and the OM Room, but I have not seen such discussion first-hand) since the last survey. What has caused the council to vote on a mon that was regarded by the community as the 5th most healthiest issue addressed on the latest survey? (EDIT: For clarity, I am referring to issue as a move or mon, not including things like state of the meta as a whole or how competitive we find it to be)
Second, what factors decide how an issue will be addressed? Going back to the survey, Ceaseless Edge received an average community score of 4.08, which landed it a council vote, not for a ban, but instead for a suspect. Meanwhile, other similarly ranked issues (Ogerpon-Hearthflame with an average of 4.25, Astral Barrage with an average of 4.7, and Wicked Torque with an average of 4.79) were instead voted on for a ban and not a suspect. How does the council decide which option is eligible for a suspect test vote rather than a ban vote? Will things like Damp Rock and Wicked Torque be eligible for a suspect test in the future instead of a council vote?
Third, is there a "magic number" that the council is looking for when it comes to what gets voted on? For the first round of council votes associated with the August 10th survey, the highest community average scored issue that was voted on was Flower trick with an average of 5.54 and received this comment "Definitely on the lower side of 5, and as such we voted on it.". The next highest issue being Glacial Lance (which was not voted on) received an average score of 5.58 and received this comment "A powerful move with no downsides, the average indicates that many view it as potentially problematic but not quite enough to act on." If 5.54 is on the low end and 5.58 is not quite enough, then what is the cutoff? What criteria were used for the council suspect vote that went up earlier today? Why were moves and mons that were above the average score of 5.54 included in the new council vote? I bring this up because the title of the post is "Post Survey Ban Slate!" and last I looked, there have not been any new surveys since the last one was posted on August 24th.
We all as a community want what is best for the meta that we love. I believe the best way to reach an understanding on an issue is to talk it out, and not just spew out our opinions until one of us can't take it anymore and just leaves.
I hope this post opens a healthy dialogue between the council and the community about our expectations, and hopes, for the future of STABmons.
Respectfully Yours,
Fissure
*Didn't get pinged for this, so apology for the slightly late response.
The council is a collection of individuals, generally we put up votes based on suggestions by fellow council people, on what we see here and in the discord, in replays, and through our own experiences. We come together and discuss our points of views, or reasons we believe x or y is broken and then vote.
My objective as TL is merely to facilitate the operations of the council and to ensure that nothing too policy diverging occurs, such as extremely suspect stuff like say banning a specific move on a specific Pokemon. I am not the dictator of the tier, and though technically my say is somewhat final that is not how I operate.
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Regarding Kingambit, that is definitely a strange one as you mentioned, fundamentally many in the council believe we need to make drastic changes to the tier in order for it to be both competitive and fun. That the OM is currently in a poor state and that action needs to be taken. As a result, we voted on things without reflection on the aforementioned survey and its scores. Kingambit has always been a mixed bag throughout the entirety of the generation, even having been banned at one point, this made quick voting it out particularly easy due to the aforementioned precedence. Our reasons are likely different depending on whom you ask in the council as we aren't a monolith, we each hold our own perspectives.
My reason for voting "yes" to the vote was purely related to a combination of the unhealthy lategame issues Kingambit creates as a result of Supreme Overlord and the high offensive power of Kingambit fully capable of turning over games that should by all accounts be solved purely due to a 50/50 dice roll.
For others, I am sure there are other reasons that they can explain, I know for some it was heavily influenced by their perception of Wicked Torque and it's fishy sleep effect, that in tandem with Swords Dance could theoretically let it beat even sturdy checks.
I will say that if we are wrong, and Kingambit isn't problematic we are fully willing to undo it, this much I will say though. This will especially be the case if Wicked Torque is banned in the future in which case Kingambit may be reintroduced into the tier.
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Regarding the reason to suspect one thing over another comes heavily down to the impact of what we are suspecting and the reasons for why. Ceaseless Edge was suspected because ultimately it has been a central force within STABmons since it entered the OM, simply quick banning it when there is no real subsitute to it would be a poor move on our part. In constrast Wicked Torque was already voted on and failed to pass in survey ban slate as such voting on it again immediately would seem like someone is intentionally trying to force something to be banned / restricted in spite of a fair vote.
Astral Barrage was not voted on then because it's primary abuser Gholdengo was coming underfire as a potentially broken element within the metagame. Ultimately, I told the rest of the council that it wasn't the offensive power of Gholdengo + Astral Barrage alone but rather a summation of all of Gholdengo's attributes that made it broken as a result the easiest and most straight forward thing to do was banning it.
Now I will say it's recent banning is particularly strange, and I allowed it to be voted on and as such am to blame for it being restricted post-gholdengo (with many having the intention of freeing Gholdengo as a result of this and in combianton with the recent Ceaseless restrict). We do plan to reaccess Gholdengo again in the coming week, but I have to say that this was a failure on my part as TL since we shouldn't be arbitrarily banning a move just to keep one thing in the tier...
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Just gonna be a frank, this is my first time doing a tallied survey with an average and it clearly shows. The numbers and their meaning and the reasons for why some were excluded despite being in the range for being voted are dependent on the move itself. Glacial Lance was not voted on because it is only featured on one prominent Pokemon, Weavile, and if you really wished to push it there'd be one more anti-meta pick in Mamoswine. The move is without a doubt powerful and has no downsides, it doesn't make contact, hits hard, and is one of the best offensive typings in the game yet ultimately its prominence and power is decided by the Pokemon. For this reason it wasn't voted on, and it's past abusers Chien-Pao, Baxcalibur and Kyurem were deemed broken with or without the move. Does this mean we will never vote on it, no it doesn't.
The title was simply referring to the first ban slate after the survey + survey ban slate (I realize it is confusing now that I look at it lol).
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The criteria itself is actually quite complex as we had no way of knowing whether people were viewing the moves in isolation or in context to the metagame itself. Ultimately if we viewed moves in isolation stuff like Glacial Lance would be flat out broken on a purely statistical scale, yet we can't do that, it is always a combination of elements that contribute to something being broken unless it is beyond the norm. Examples of things that are beyond the norm include Shed Tail and many boosting moves to name but two. I myself am always trying to find a balance between the influence of the move on the mon and the mon on the move.
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Currently, STABmons is in truly dire straits, and we all have our own ideas of what is the right direction both in regards to banning moves and banning pokemon whether one or the other takes precedence. I can't say I will always be right in my decisions as I am a flawed individual just trying to do their best, so call me out things if you feel there is a reason to do so.
We will try to be as flexible in the future as possible, that means if we have to unban a Pokemon(s) after a move ban to test it out, we will do so as we have unique circumstances to many other tiers and need to be able to change when necessary.
I hope I was clear with this, it has been turbulent as of late but if you need to talk to me specifically please do so here, on discord, or on PS.
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