Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Anty
- Start date
Okay let's go through some of these noms for a minute, cause most sound a bit iffy to me.
Vullaby: Less of a reason to use it over Cryogonal and Prinplup while the former struggles with physical attackers and the latter has no recovery and is fodder for Grass-types while Vullaby can Defog, has recovery in Roost, and the ability to pivot with U-Turn and take attacks with ease. Don't know about you, but that still sounds like a good enough niche to me and should stay where it is.
Mightyena: For the most part what I read from you description for this nom is "If you're prepared for Pawniard, you're prepared for Mightyena." I don't really get this as you say Mightyena creates 50/50s with Sucker Punch, but doesn't Pawniard do the exact same thing? It also doesn't need to setup and excels on spike stacking teams just like Pawniard can and is sometimes seen together on Dark Spam cores with Play Rough for Machoke. Sure it doesn't have access to moves like Swords Dance and Knock Off, but I don't feel that is enough justification for it to drop. Also don't get the whole defensive utility on an offensive mon.
Audino: I don't know exactly what is overhyped about Audino if it is good at what it does. You also say it isn't too splashable. If your team needs a cleric, what other option do you have, especially considering how Audino made Lickilicky fall out of favor. And just because it struggles with Machoke and Monferno doesn't mean its bad at what it does. Also not difficult to overwhelm with special attackers cause they run Focus Blast? And what exactly stops Audino from PP stalling you out of Focus Blasts with Wish + Protect, and Regenerator?
Probopass: Worse than Metang cause of 4x Fighting and Ground weakness. While I won't deny that, Probopass can still provide slow Volt Switches and can handle Pawniard better and can switch in on it as well, as well as act as a solid Normal and Flying resist while not being weak to Knock Off like Metang is. I haven't seen much Sturdy Probopasses either as opposed to Magnet Pull as well and Cryogonal only gets a free switchin on Probopass if you can predict Earth Power, so it isn't a definite switchin.
Fraxure: "Even its offensive DD set is not superior to Altaria's." So lack of recovery, yet being able to hit harder right off the bat suddenly makes Fraxure DD set inferior to Altaria how exactly? Also Fraxure doesn't really to setup if it can get a free kill off, plus Eviolite does let Fraxure get set up oppurtunities even if it has to take a hit to do so. Also what setup sweeper isn't revenge killed by a faster Pokemon bar things like Sucker Punch Huntail?
Vibrava: An Electric check that isn't weak to Rock like Cryogonal or lacks recovery and is susceptable to Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and Sticky Web like Prinplup. Sure Hidden Power Ice can 2HKO Vibrava and it is no Trapinch, but can still function as a Defogger with recovery and a pivot with U-turn. It may be less seen in comparison to Cryogonal and Prinplup, but I wouldn't say it is very niche as its main problem is Vibrava is passive like Prinplup is under some scenarios.
Dodrio: Dead weight vs Rock-, Steel-types, and Stunfisk, yet you can't deny it is still a very effective wallbreaker. And for the aforementioned problems Dodrio has, it has teammates for them, so it isn't get a surefire explanation for it to drop. Picked off by faster Pokemon? Choice Scarf Dodrio is still very effective. Dies to Stealth Rock and Brave Bird recoil? Free switch initiative for a teammate.
Pawniard: Shouldn't the fact that Pawniard is such a threat in the metagame mean that it's viability is justified? Sure it's stopped by Stunfisk and other physical walls, but isn't it so you aren't 6-0d by it? The fact that Pawniard can wear own unprepared teams plus Knock Off + Sucker Punch makes it so effective that you need to have a check for it.
Here we have a LOT of noms... and I agree with some... Disagree with some others... So, let's see:
* Sawsbuck: I'm not seeing how is this losing viability, considering that it can still use the same sets as ever without that many problems. Regarding the new drops and trends, while it does struggle against the high amount of Monfernos and Pawniards, it can also use the high amount of Golems to its favor... Also, Scarf set can easily beat Cryo with both STABs, and Prinplup will be pretty much setup fodder for a SD Saws... Then, I personally think it deserves to stay the same rank.
* Venipede: Totally agree... Even with the Pelipper loss, PU is having a decent time removing hazards with Cryo and Prin in addition to still pretty much viable Vullaby and Vibrava which makes a "suicide lead" frequently a wasted space in the team... Also, it does have a really bad matchup against the most frequent lead now (Golem). C+ for this one please...
* Glalie: well, while Glalie is also a suicide lead, I personally think that its slightly better than Venipede, since at least it does have some offensive presence and it can also help to soften spin blockers with crunch which is kinda needed on spike stacking teams and can help Glalie to deal with Cryo (full invested Glalie will do 74,6% minimum to Cryo with Crunch + Ice Shard which is gonna be a KO almost every time after SR), while it can still Taunt Prin, Vull and Vib to avoid the Defog and then hit them with Freeze Dry... Then, while it might get a little bit lower(B-), just because it does even have a bit of 4MMS syndrome, it can still be B considering that it could have some versatility...
* Metang: While its pretty good at setting SR, and its bulky, its defensive type is kinda iffy, considering that every NFE is pretty much reliant on eviolite and without it, it will not be handling strong hits, specially considering that it doesn't have recovery. Finally, it's huge setup bait for everything moderately bulky because without considerable investment 75 base attack is absolutely lacking. It should stay B+
* Mightyena: I personally think that Mighty is a little less viable in the meta, because of the over preparing syndrome thanks to Pawniard... Also, the meta is getting a little bit more into bulky playstyles thanks to better bulky and support pokes (like Audino, Altaria, Prinplup) which makes Mighty attack a little bit behind Pawniard because of SD... B+ its still good, specially if we try to get things down to clean a little bit more the ranks...
* Pawniard: while obviously the increase on Monfernos, Machokes and Focus Blast users really affects Pawn, when we consider that its just because of it, then its pretty clear that Pawn's viability is better than ever and that's the reason for over preparing against it... Ergo, it should stay where it is...
* Vullaby: Vull situation its kinda weird... It is still pretty much viable, considering it is as bulky as Prinplup but with realiable recovery and a lot more disgusting moves like Knock Off and U Turn for momentum and is not affected by spikes (specially Toxic spikes that are lethal for Prin)... Yep, its weak to SR, but we can say the same bout Cryo and Vullaby still have that nice Physical bulk. I actually will lower it to bottom A rank or top A- at worst...
* Vibrava: I dunno why this should be dropped since it does have a lot of things that Prinplup will die for... Reliable recovery, U Turn, two immunities, it does receive the smallest damage from hazards in PU (the only other hazard remover in PU that isn't SR weak is Prin, and sadly this one is vulnerable to spikes and to its principal setter, Roselia) and while 70 base attack is painful, at least is more dangerous thanks to Ground STAB being pretty much better than others against hazard setters...
* Mr. Mime: I agree with this one getting higher in viability... It can destroy Cryo and recent trends (like Ferno and Choke) with Psyshock and it can setup on Prinplup... It does also have enough special bulk to withstand a few hits and getting a Nasty Plot, And its Dazzling Gleam is strong enough to blow Pawn (Life Orb timid does 83% at least)... I dunno, but I feel that NP Mime (With STABs + HP Fighting and Technician) is more dangerous as a wallbreaker than Stoutland...
* Dodrio: while Golem, Relicanth and Stunfisk are annoying, Dodrio can still chip damage thanks to Knock Off nice coverage+effect... and while Stout might have Superpower, it still will click Return much more than Superpower, just because its the safest route... Dodrio does the same but with BB. Also, while Cryo might seem like a problem, actually Dodrio is also problematic for Cryo cuz banded Quick attack does 75% minimum (enough to OHKO after rocks).
* Fraxure: Wut? Altaria might be slightly faster and bulkier on the special side but Fraxure is MUCH stronger and its bulkier on the physical side thanks to eviolite... Yes, it will not have the opportunity to setup 2 or 3 DD against passive opponents, but Fraxure doesn't need that much setup to really pose a threat since +1 Jolly gets as much speed as Modest Electrode (379) and enough power to plow through a lot of things. I belive that Altaria's placement is just because of its other abilities like recovery and cleric capabilities, more than offensive DD sets that its Fraxure's thing.
* Probopass: yes, it can deal with Pawn better than Metang, but isn't strong enough to deal consistent damage to a lot of threats... Even fully invested, Earth Power still misses OHKOes against many offensive pokes despite being Super effective on them, while the heavy influx of Fighting and Water pokes, is really bad for it... I Think top B+ with Metang could be fine...
* Audino: I totally disagree with the nomination to drop it... It is a pretty nice poke for different playstyles (its harder to fit it on offensive teams, but it will be amazing for removing status and passing huge wishes to offensive pokes that usually get overwhelmed from recoil and hazard damage) and it is even the reason of why bulkier teams can now work on PU... I would even raise it a little bit over Jumpluff...
* Scraggy: I have used it a couple of times and I have been just disappointed... Bulk up sets needs HP and SpD investment to avoid being destroyed by the myriad of special attacking pokes in the tier and they will need a LOT of bulk ups to be threatening which will let Scraggy pretty much worn down or without coverage (if you decide to do a Resttalk set). So... While it can be kinda annoying because of Knock Off, why would I use Scraggy when I can use Pawniard, set up a Swords Dance and blow through Ofensive and defensive playstiles with Sucker Punch and Knock Off-Iron Head respectively?
* Purugly: I dunno what has really changed for this one... It is dangerous for ofensive pokes below 112 base speed, but it is still outspeed by three of the most used pokes in this meta: Scarfed Rotom F, Zebstrika and Floatzel... It's annoying, because of Fake Out, but I feel that since its also that predictable, isn't hard to dispose of it...
* Vanilluxe: Vani has the niche of being the jack of all tradea, master of none... It can do a little bit of what you mentioned for Cryo, Glaceon, etc... So it could get a place on a few teams that need a faster ice attacker of a bulkier one on the physical side...
* Wartortle: yep... Unrank this thing... Between Cryo and Prin, I feel that this one lost its niche besides Foresight + Rapid Spin (that isn't that much needed considering that Missy and Dusk are not as frequent as before and those two can be bypassed by defog)
* Banette: I'm not feeling this one... 65 speed is too low to sweep, its defenses are just too painfuk for that speed and even with 115 base attack, low base power moves makes Banette's damage output, just lacking... And mixed based sets are also painful because they will need investment to deal enough damage, debilitating Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak... I haven't see a Banette doing something that Dusk or Missy can't do better...
See ya guys!
P.D.: sorry about my english in this one... I'm really sleepy and I'm doing this on my phone...
* Sawsbuck: I'm not seeing how is this losing viability, considering that it can still use the same sets as ever without that many problems. Regarding the new drops and trends, while it does struggle against the high amount of Monfernos and Pawniards, it can also use the high amount of Golems to its favor... Also, Scarf set can easily beat Cryo with both STABs, and Prinplup will be pretty much setup fodder for a SD Saws... Then, I personally think it deserves to stay the same rank.
* Venipede: Totally agree... Even with the Pelipper loss, PU is having a decent time removing hazards with Cryo and Prin in addition to still pretty much viable Vullaby and Vibrava which makes a "suicide lead" frequently a wasted space in the team... Also, it does have a really bad matchup against the most frequent lead now (Golem). C+ for this one please...
* Glalie: well, while Glalie is also a suicide lead, I personally think that its slightly better than Venipede, since at least it does have some offensive presence and it can also help to soften spin blockers with crunch which is kinda needed on spike stacking teams and can help Glalie to deal with Cryo (full invested Glalie will do 74,6% minimum to Cryo with Crunch + Ice Shard which is gonna be a KO almost every time after SR), while it can still Taunt Prin, Vull and Vib to avoid the Defog and then hit them with Freeze Dry... Then, while it might get a little bit lower(B-), just because it does even have a bit of 4MMS syndrome, it can still be B considering that it could have some versatility...
* Metang: While its pretty good at setting SR, and its bulky, its defensive type is kinda iffy, considering that every NFE is pretty much reliant on eviolite and without it, it will not be handling strong hits, specially considering that it doesn't have recovery. Finally, it's huge setup bait for everything moderately bulky because without considerable investment 75 base attack is absolutely lacking. It should stay B+
* Mightyena: I personally think that Mighty is a little less viable in the meta, because of the over preparing syndrome thanks to Pawniard... Also, the meta is getting a little bit more into bulky playstyles thanks to better bulky and support pokes (like Audino, Altaria, Prinplup) which makes Mighty attack a little bit behind Pawniard because of SD... B+ its still good, specially if we try to get things down to clean a little bit more the ranks...
* Pawniard: while obviously the increase on Monfernos, Machokes and Focus Blast users really affects Pawn, when we consider that its just because of it, then its pretty clear that Pawn's viability is better than ever and that's the reason for over preparing against it... Ergo, it should stay where it is...
* Vullaby: Vull situation its kinda weird... It is still pretty much viable, considering it is as bulky as Prinplup but with realiable recovery and a lot more disgusting moves like Knock Off and U Turn for momentum and is not affected by spikes (specially Toxic spikes that are lethal for Prin)... Yep, its weak to SR, but we can say the same bout Cryo and Vullaby still have that nice Physical bulk. I actually will lower it to bottom A rank or top A- at worst...
* Vibrava: I dunno why this should be dropped since it does have a lot of things that Prinplup will die for... Reliable recovery, U Turn, two immunities, it does receive the smallest damage from hazards in PU (the only other hazard remover in PU that isn't SR weak is Prin, and sadly this one is vulnerable to spikes and to its principal setter, Roselia) and while 70 base attack is painful, at least is more dangerous thanks to Ground STAB being pretty much better than others against hazard setters...
* Mr. Mime: I agree with this one getting higher in viability... It can destroy Cryo and recent trends (like Ferno and Choke) with Psyshock and it can setup on Prinplup... It does also have enough special bulk to withstand a few hits and getting a Nasty Plot, And its Dazzling Gleam is strong enough to blow Pawn (Life Orb timid does 83% at least)... I dunno, but I feel that NP Mime (With STABs + HP Fighting and Technician) is more dangerous as a wallbreaker than Stoutland...
* Dodrio: while Golem, Relicanth and Stunfisk are annoying, Dodrio can still chip damage thanks to Knock Off nice coverage+effect... and while Stout might have Superpower, it still will click Return much more than Superpower, just because its the safest route... Dodrio does the same but with BB. Also, while Cryo might seem like a problem, actually Dodrio is also problematic for Cryo cuz banded Quick attack does 75% minimum (enough to OHKO after rocks).
* Fraxure: Wut? Altaria might be slightly faster and bulkier on the special side but Fraxure is MUCH stronger and its bulkier on the physical side thanks to eviolite... Yes, it will not have the opportunity to setup 2 or 3 DD against passive opponents, but Fraxure doesn't need that much setup to really pose a threat since +1 Jolly gets as much speed as Modest Electrode (379) and enough power to plow through a lot of things. I belive that Altaria's placement is just because of its other abilities like recovery and cleric capabilities, more than offensive DD sets that its Fraxure's thing.
* Probopass: yes, it can deal with Pawn better than Metang, but isn't strong enough to deal consistent damage to a lot of threats... Even fully invested, Earth Power still misses OHKOes against many offensive pokes despite being Super effective on them, while the heavy influx of Fighting and Water pokes, is really bad for it... I Think top B+ with Metang could be fine...
* Audino: I totally disagree with the nomination to drop it... It is a pretty nice poke for different playstyles (its harder to fit it on offensive teams, but it will be amazing for removing status and passing huge wishes to offensive pokes that usually get overwhelmed from recoil and hazard damage) and it is even the reason of why bulkier teams can now work on PU... I would even raise it a little bit over Jumpluff...
* Scraggy: I have used it a couple of times and I have been just disappointed... Bulk up sets needs HP and SpD investment to avoid being destroyed by the myriad of special attacking pokes in the tier and they will need a LOT of bulk ups to be threatening which will let Scraggy pretty much worn down or without coverage (if you decide to do a Resttalk set). So... While it can be kinda annoying because of Knock Off, why would I use Scraggy when I can use Pawniard, set up a Swords Dance and blow through Ofensive and defensive playstiles with Sucker Punch and Knock Off-Iron Head respectively?
* Purugly: I dunno what has really changed for this one... It is dangerous for ofensive pokes below 112 base speed, but it is still outspeed by three of the most used pokes in this meta: Scarfed Rotom F, Zebstrika and Floatzel... It's annoying, because of Fake Out, but I feel that since its also that predictable, isn't hard to dispose of it...
* Vanilluxe: Vani has the niche of being the jack of all tradea, master of none... It can do a little bit of what you mentioned for Cryo, Glaceon, etc... So it could get a place on a few teams that need a faster ice attacker of a bulkier one on the physical side...
* Wartortle: yep... Unrank this thing... Between Cryo and Prin, I feel that this one lost its niche besides Foresight + Rapid Spin (that isn't that much needed considering that Missy and Dusk are not as frequent as before and those two can be bypassed by defog)
* Banette: I'm not feeling this one... 65 speed is too low to sweep, its defenses are just too painfuk for that speed and even with 115 base attack, low base power moves makes Banette's damage output, just lacking... And mixed based sets are also painful because they will need investment to deal enough damage, debilitating Sucker Punch and Shadow Sneak... I haven't see a Banette doing something that Dusk or Missy can't do better...
See ya guys!
P.D.: sorry about my english in this one... I'm really sleepy and I'm doing this on my phone...
So the reason to keep Vanilluxe D rank is because it does a bunch of things other ices do but worse....
I can understand a jack of all trades but when the with ice types anilluxe can do the role of why would you? Honestly, there is barely any reason especially considering the reason already given is flawed "it does what others do" then why not use those other mons in that role? They are all Ice-Types and as for the actual physical bulk exactly what is Vanilluxe wanting to take especially with that already consistent rock weakness.
Also MoM its not superior to Glaceon not only is it stronger buts Glaceon's actual niche is breaking through the common ice resists on teams atm such as Metang and Grumpig and as for Scarf Vanilluxe why would you run that over Rotom-F i understand being locked into Freeze-Dry is preferable over T-Bolt but its ability to pivot with Volt Switch,BoltBeam combo,Typing and Levitate are much better reasons for Rotom-F as a scarfer
I can understand a jack of all trades but when the with ice types anilluxe can do the role of why would you? Honestly, there is barely any reason especially considering the reason already given is flawed "it does what others do" then why not use those other mons in that role? They are all Ice-Types and as for the actual physical bulk exactly what is Vanilluxe wanting to take especially with that already consistent rock weakness.
Also MoM its not superior to Glaceon not only is it stronger buts Glaceon's actual niche is breaking through the common ice resists on teams atm such as Metang and Grumpig and as for Scarf Vanilluxe why would you run that over Rotom-F i understand being locked into Freeze-Dry is preferable over T-Bolt but its ability to pivot with Volt Switch,BoltBeam combo,Typing and Levitate are much better reasons for Rotom-F as a scarfer
It's always tough to determine the viability of a middle-of-the-ground pokemon. Vanilluxe isn't necessarily worse, but you're right, it is a jack of all trades. It's a little faster than some ice types, stronger than others...But there is no clear cut niche where it stands out. In my opinion there does not have to be a clear "niche" for a D-ranking. If the pokemon in question is decent in practice (Vanilluxe is okay), then all you need is a few situations in which you would prefer to run it over other Ice-Types. This is a similar concept to Vaporeon in UU. So I made a diagram below to help people understand what Vanilluxe brings to the table.
Let's leave it up to the moderators to decide whether this is valid enough to keep Vanilluxe in D rank.
Let's leave it up to the moderators to decide whether this is valid enough to keep Vanilluxe in D rank.
I don't want to go through that entire graphic, but suggesting that rotom is the go to ice type before anything else in every situation is ridiculous and the reason to use other Pokemon isn't just "blizzard isn't reliable", it's that you want something that they don't have, like Spin or RP sweeping. That really isn't accurate.
The diagram wasn't meant to cover all reasoning, just the reasons that would lead to Vanilluxe being used. Anyway, Rotom-F wasn't the go to Ice-Type, but it was the go to Wallbreaker with Life Orb/SubWisp and the go to sweeper with Choice Scarf.
in my opinion, strong freeze dry without paper shit defense that dies to bp from machoke or a quad weak stealth rock weakness warrants some niche. It has breaking power that freeze dry users carry in this tier, whilst hitting bulky water types very well. Not to mention it can also run ice shard if worst comes to the worst.
I don't think a diagram is the exact best way to go about showing it, but I agree Vanilluxe has enough going for it to be in D at least. It's a really cool ice type that can lure things like Grumpig with explosion (which should be standard on LO sets which I think is a bit better option over ice shard if your goal is wall breaking)
0 Atk Life Orb Vanilluxe Explosion vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 316-373 (98.4 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
0 Atk Life Orb Vanilluxe Explosion vs. 80 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 316-373 (98.4 - 116.1%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
if you didn't want to go through the trouble of looking through the graph then why post? It's not even like the diagram was even that large that you could justify just not looking at it/ skimming.
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The Main issue is that i would treat Rotom more like an Electric-type than an ice type since the Ice type move a lot of the time is there just to threaten switch ins as it uses Volt Switch or Thunderbolt. I think Vanilluxe is a fair Pokemon to use as a wallbreaker since it is really hard to switch into (outside of Grumpig and Cryogonal but even then Signal Beam / Flash Cannon and explosion exist) and still has a reasonable niche if speedy since with a Timid nature it can be an effective surprise check to a lot of Stoutland and Monferno.
As a choice scarf user it is pretty subpar in my opinion since it is the slowest scarfer around, not even outspeeding + Speed Gorebyss/Huntail after a Shell Smash, and can't really take advantage of its unique coverage moves a lot of the time but it can work since it has a lot of sweeping power late game with Freeze Dry regardless.
I would say it can still be D rank since it can run two effective sets that can outperform other Ice-types in specific situations but overall it is not really worth using.
As a choice scarf user it is pretty subpar in my opinion since it is the slowest scarfer around, not even outspeeding + Speed Gorebyss/Huntail after a Shell Smash, and can't really take advantage of its unique coverage moves a lot of the time but it can work since it has a lot of sweeping power late game with Freeze Dry regardless.
I would say it can still be D rank since it can run two effective sets that can outperform other Ice-types in specific situations but overall it is not really worth using.
Edit: it was a nomitation, but the user cancelled the post so i want to nominate it myself
Machoke from A+ to S
I agree with the nomination, and i want to give some reasonings.
Even if it is not fast, Machoke is able to 1v1 really big part of the tier, tanking and killing afterwords.
Moreover it has the possibility of running two different sets:
- No Guard Dynamic Punch: nobody wants to deal with confusion, and even tho this set is weaker than the guts one, conusion and no defenses drop is huge.
- Guts Close Combat: Machoke hits hard. You burn it? It hits harder. Close Combat base power is huge, Knock Off destroys ghost types that want to burn Machoke (Gourgeist-Super is the only exception)
It threatens the majority of the current stealth rockers
Machoke from A+ to S
I agree with the nomination, and i want to give some reasonings.
Even if it is not fast, Machoke is able to 1v1 really big part of the tier, tanking and killing afterwords.
252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 219-258 (60.1 - 70.8%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 326-386 (104.8 - 124.1%)
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%)
252+ Atk Machoke Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 400-472 (137.4 - 162.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 240-283 (77.1 - 90.9%)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 288-339 (92.6 - 109%)
252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 199-235 (76.2 - 90%)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 238-282 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Monferno: 169-199 (62.8 - 73.9%)
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 137-162 (61.9 - 73.3%)
252+ Atk Machoke Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Mr. Mime: 85-102 (38.4 - 46.1%)
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%)
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 318-376 (143.2 - 169.3%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 326-386 (104.8 - 124.1%)
252 Atk Jumpluff Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%)
252+ Atk Machoke Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Jumpluff: 400-472 (137.4 - 162.1%)
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 204-240 (56 - 65.9%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 240-283 (77.1 - 90.9%)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Floatzel: 288-339 (92.6 - 109%)
252 Atk Dodrio Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 312-368 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 199-235 (76.2 - 90%)
252+ Atk Machoke Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 238-282 (91.1 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Monferno Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Machoke: 136-162 (37.3 - 44.5%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Monferno: 169-199 (62.8 - 73.9%)
252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 137-162 (61.9 - 73.3%)
252+ Atk Machoke Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Filter Mr. Mime: 85-102 (38.4 - 46.1%)
252+ SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 254-300 (69.7 - 82.4%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 274-324 (75.2 - 89%)
252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%)
252+ Atk Machoke Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 318-376 (143.2 - 169.3%)
Moreover it has the possibility of running two different sets:
- No Guard Dynamic Punch: nobody wants to deal with confusion, and even tho this set is weaker than the guts one, conusion and no defenses drop is huge.
- Guts Close Combat: Machoke hits hard. You burn it? It hits harder. Close Combat base power is huge, Knock Off destroys ghost types that want to burn Machoke (Gourgeist-Super is the only exception)
It threatens the majority of the current stealth rockers
252+ Atk Machoke Ice Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Gabite: 188-224 (55.2 - 65.8%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 436-516 (134.5 - 159.2%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golem: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Relicanth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Probopass: 436-516 (134.5 - 159.2%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Golem: 240-284 (65.9 - 78%)
252+ Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 252 HP / 252 Def Relicanth: 198-234 (49 - 57.9%) -- 49.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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well tbh, i agree with machoke rising to S too. The amount of fighting resists in this tier is completely minimal whilst nearly everything relies on evio for bulk. The d-punch set is completely outrageous in current meta as it forces so many switches, pair it with stealth rock and you're giving teams an extremely hard time. Whilst it also has nearly 0 counters, best one being gourgeist-s, but with the rise of monferno, it makes using gourgeist very hard.
I think that the d-punch set itself is an A+ set at least, but with the option to go guts on potential will-o users such as missy or gourgeist puts it over the fence for an S rank pokemon in this tier. The reason why it works so well is due to the bulk as mentioned in the post above, so people will have to either sack a mon trying to get damage off or get 30% chip damage, which is extremely hard considering how good it is, plus the 50/50s with d-punch just making it a great mon to use.
Hence forcing switches consistently in games, it makes gaining momentum extremely easy for teams whilst also having the ability to break.
I think that the d-punch set itself is an A+ set at least, but with the option to go guts on potential will-o users such as missy or gourgeist puts it over the fence for an S rank pokemon in this tier. The reason why it works so well is due to the bulk as mentioned in the post above, so people will have to either sack a mon trying to get damage off or get 30% chip damage, which is extremely hard considering how good it is, plus the 50/50s with d-punch just making it a great mon to use.
Hence forcing switches consistently in games, it makes gaining momentum extremely easy for teams whilst also having the ability to break.
Okay, my opinion about the whole Machoke to S thing.
Machoke's an effective mon and it's undeniable strong, but it has downsides that keep it out of the S rankings. It's lackluster speed is one of it's main downsides, but it can outspeed some walls when running investment and sacrificing bulk. Yes, it can't be ohkoed by most things but it's 2hkoed by most and sometimes it lacks power to guarantee some crucial ohkoes and it's 2hkoed back. The metagame is also shifting with more and more fighting resists/lures such as Colbur psychic and ghost types, aswell as some mons that can't ohko machoke with their standard set, but with a variation they are able to do so, such as Twisted Spoon (or every power-boosting item) Mime and LO Kadabra. It's also easily worn down by residual damage+attacks it'll have to tank, and even Resttalk sets suffer this, becase, as i've stated before, most attackers are able to 2hko Machoke. Resttalk sets are also much less threatening than AoA as they don't have enough coverage to hit a big portion of the tier, unlike AoA sets. Machoke is definitely a threatening mon but i don't think it's S-rank worth it (it's imo even comparable to Stoutland to S, and they suffer the same problem). Keep Machoke A+
Machoke's an effective mon and it's undeniable strong, but it has downsides that keep it out of the S rankings. It's lackluster speed is one of it's main downsides, but it can outspeed some walls when running investment and sacrificing bulk. Yes, it can't be ohkoed by most things but it's 2hkoed by most and sometimes it lacks power to guarantee some crucial ohkoes and it's 2hkoed back. The metagame is also shifting with more and more fighting resists/lures such as Colbur psychic and ghost types, aswell as some mons that can't ohko machoke with their standard set, but with a variation they are able to do so, such as Twisted Spoon (or every power-boosting item) Mime and LO Kadabra. It's also easily worn down by residual damage+attacks it'll have to tank, and even Resttalk sets suffer this, becase, as i've stated before, most attackers are able to 2hko Machoke. Resttalk sets are also much less threatening than AoA as they don't have enough coverage to hit a big portion of the tier, unlike AoA sets. Machoke is definitely a threatening mon but i don't think it's S-rank worth it (it's imo even comparable to Stoutland to S, and they suffer the same problem). Keep Machoke A+
Machoke to S: Strongly in favour.
If you're familiar with all the posts I've made asking for a Machoke suspect, this thing is fucking bullshit rn. Its two sets are both really good in the tier, and most of its "counters" can easily be handled by the right coverage move. Ampharos and Prinplup aren't really doing anything to stop it, and Cryogonal actually might be the Pokémon that's weakest to it. Being able to check Rotom-F, another S-Rank mon, with just its STABs helps too.
A nom of my own:
Floatzel to A+
The meta has not been too kind to Floatzel recently. With a new check in Ampharos and the rise of Rotom-F, as well as Roselia and Electrode rising in popularity, Floatzel is finding it harder than ever to sweep. Rotom-F, Amphy and Rose are both bulky enough to live Floatzel's attacks, while Electrode is fast enough to outspeed even without a Timid Nature and hit Floatzel really hard. You may disagree with me on this one, but I think Floatzel's S ranking is pushing it a bit.
If you're familiar with all the posts I've made asking for a Machoke suspect, this thing is fucking bullshit rn. Its two sets are both really good in the tier, and most of its "counters" can easily be handled by the right coverage move. Ampharos and Prinplup aren't really doing anything to stop it, and Cryogonal actually might be the Pokémon that's weakest to it. Being able to check Rotom-F, another S-Rank mon, with just its STABs helps too.
A nom of my own:
Floatzel to A+
The meta has not been too kind to Floatzel recently. With a new check in Ampharos and the rise of Rotom-F, as well as Roselia and Electrode rising in popularity, Floatzel is finding it harder than ever to sweep. Rotom-F, Amphy and Rose are both bulky enough to live Floatzel's attacks, while Electrode is fast enough to outspeed even without a Timid Nature and hit Floatzel really hard. You may disagree with me on this one, but I think Floatzel's S ranking is pushing it a bit.
I agree with Machoke to S as well. Not only are good fighting resists so hard to come by in PU, there is no opportune cost of running a Machoke thanks to its amazing bulk which can keep it from just getting revenge killed by faster things, the amazing coverage which lets it hit majority of the tier, and its ability to really mess over any teams thanks to Dynamic Punch which pressures switch ins heavily thanks to the confusion aspect, letting it really beat out a lot of walls that would normally take the time to wisp it or recover such as colbur Solrock. I think this thing is super strong inside the metagame and should warrant S.
Disagree with dropping Floatzel. I don't know what more to say about this mon other than it's still an amazing mon. When you say stuff like "Ampharos (which I assume is AV) is a new check" or that "Rose is rising in popularity" (which isn't even the case, there have been metas in the past where this thing has been super popular, in this meta it's actually less used then before.) I think you're forgetting it can also run CB sets which will nail things like AV Amphy and Rose. You're correct in saying these 2 will help take on special Floatzel, but CB sets will just lure these 2 and kill them.
As for the rise in Rotom-f and Electrode, these 2 aren't anything new and Floatzel has been able to keep being a top level threat even with these 2 in the tier. Whats more is that Zebstrika is seeing less play now then it did before which helps it out a lot. I don't see much of any reason to drop Floatzel.
Disagree with dropping Floatzel. I don't know what more to say about this mon other than it's still an amazing mon. When you say stuff like "Ampharos (which I assume is AV) is a new check" or that "Rose is rising in popularity" (which isn't even the case, there have been metas in the past where this thing has been super popular, in this meta it's actually less used then before.) I think you're forgetting it can also run CB sets which will nail things like AV Amphy and Rose. You're correct in saying these 2 will help take on special Floatzel, but CB sets will just lure these 2 and kill them.
As for the rise in Rotom-f and Electrode, these 2 aren't anything new and Floatzel has been able to keep being a top level threat even with these 2 in the tier. Whats more is that Zebstrika is seeing less play now then it did before which helps it out a lot. I don't see much of any reason to drop Floatzel.
Disagree with Rising Machoke
While i can agree Machoke is a considerable threat that should be noted i just cant agree with the issues Machoke does suffer from which in my personal opinion do keep it from S rank.
First off its item the Eviolite despite the big boost Machoke i would never call it amazing as it still is 2hkod by a great majority of the tier even ohkod by a portion this isnt including sr even though it is only 6% this opens up a lot more 2hkos for slightly weaker pokemon such as Monferno.
Next is Machokes actual presence and to be honest i dont find this overal a defining pokemon for the tier as a Fighting-Type it suffers competition from Monferno of all things which honestly has been more defining as a fighting-type (yes these two are very different however being the two fightings in the tier you can see why id include it) Machoke used to be a massive definition of the tier back when Dynamic Punch was first brought up however since then id say Machoke is just naturally prepared for without a second thought.
Tl;dr - Machoke has gotten to that point where it is just so naturally prepared for on balance and suffers against offensive that it has become more of a Kill to be killed later kind of mon rather than the in out wallbreaker it has been.
Disagree with floatzel to A+
Kay already said all the reasons why but there is also the fact it is a big reason a dedicated switch in for water types is commonly used so this thing cant pick up a kill or gain more momentum.
While i can agree Machoke is a considerable threat that should be noted i just cant agree with the issues Machoke does suffer from which in my personal opinion do keep it from S rank.
First off its item the Eviolite despite the big boost Machoke i would never call it amazing as it still is 2hkod by a great majority of the tier even ohkod by a portion this isnt including sr even though it is only 6% this opens up a lot more 2hkos for slightly weaker pokemon such as Monferno.
Next is Machokes actual presence and to be honest i dont find this overal a defining pokemon for the tier as a Fighting-Type it suffers competition from Monferno of all things which honestly has been more defining as a fighting-type (yes these two are very different however being the two fightings in the tier you can see why id include it) Machoke used to be a massive definition of the tier back when Dynamic Punch was first brought up however since then id say Machoke is just naturally prepared for without a second thought.
Tl;dr - Machoke has gotten to that point where it is just so naturally prepared for on balance and suffers against offensive that it has become more of a Kill to be killed later kind of mon rather than the in out wallbreaker it has been.
Disagree with floatzel to A+
Kay already said all the reasons why but there is also the fact it is a big reason a dedicated switch in for water types is commonly used so this thing cant pick up a kill or gain more momentum.
[guest] VR UPDATE
Monferno moved to top of the A+ Rank.
Pawniard moved to the bottom of A+ Rank
Zebstrika and Jumpluff down to A Rank.
For those i suggest reading thisbemyalt's post since most of the council agreed on those as reasons to move them.
Metang moved up to A- Rank
It has a lot of utility due to its typing and it is a very effective check to Pokemon such as Grumpig and Kadabra as well as Mr.Mime which are weakened reliably by Pursuit.
Vullaby remains in A- Rank
Audino remains in A+ Rank
Gabite and Dusknoir up to B+ Rank
Sawsbuck stays in low B+
Venipede and Glalie down to B-
Banette stays in D rank for now
Servine and Noctowl are now D rank
Discussion Points:
Monferno moved to top of the A+ Rank.
Pawniard moved to the bottom of A+ Rank
Zebstrika and Jumpluff down to A Rank.
For those i suggest reading thisbemyalt's post since most of the council agreed on those as reasons to move them.
Metang moved up to A- Rank
It has a lot of utility due to its typing and it is a very effective check to Pokemon such as Grumpig and Kadabra as well as Mr.Mime which are weakened reliably by Pursuit.
Vullaby remains in A- Rank
Audino remains in A+ Rank
Gabite and Dusknoir up to B+ Rank
Sawsbuck stays in low B+
Venipede and Glalie down to B-
Banette stays in D rank for now
Servine and Noctowl are now D rank
Discussion Points:
So yeah as you noticed Machoke wasn't moved up to S since most of us agreed that its Speed is too much of a factor but please keep discussing since there were pretty good points in its nomination to S rank.
Probopass sucks. To be completely honest, this meta is just terrible for Probopass, and its niche in trapping Steel-types really isn't enough, considering the three most relevant Steels are Pawniard, Metang, and Probopass. Against the former, Probopass has to have a high roll to even OHKO Pawniard, and at +2, Probopass is such a sorry check, as it can't be flinched in order to have a chance to beat it. Metang KOs with Earthquake + Bullet Punch while Probopass fails to even 2HKO Metang, and other Probopass are just bad. If you look through the S and A+, Probopass loses to literally every single Pokemon except Pawniard, the lowest of A+. Golem and Stunfisk, the two best Stealth Rockers in the meta easily beat Probopass, and they can actually compile roles (Golem: Electric and Normal check, Stealth Rock, physical wallbreaker, etc. ; Stunfisk: Stealth Rock, Monferno and Pawniard check, Electric check, etc.), while Probopass adds two lovely 4x weaknesses to your team and very little else, while at least Golem brings something to the table. So in conclusion, Probopass sucks.
Poli has great resistances in Ice and Fire, but especially he is one of the best Water types counter right now. Thanks to an amazing Special Defense, an Ice resistance, and a Water immunity (also Water Absorb also somewhat remediatea for its lack of recovery), he can wall Water-Types such as Floatzel and Simipour effectively, even taking their coverage moves :
252 SpA Choice Specs Floatzel Hidden Power Electric vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 148-176 (38.6 - 45.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Return vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Politoed: 182-215 (47.5 - 56.1%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO
+2 252 SpA Life Orb Simipour Grass Knot (60 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Politoed: 281-333 (73.3 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Even if he's walled by Rock and Steel types, Dodrio is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier. It possesses a great 100 base Speed that Bouffalant and Stoutland would dream about, at the cost of some Attack. That's not a problem though, because when he's equipped with a Choice Band, Dodrio can hit hard and fast, and the top of the top is that he's a Normal type that can beat Monferno and Machoke one-on-one thanks to Brave Bird, a ridicusly powerful secondary STAB at 180 Power that is useful to get some extra power if needed. However, Dodrio is walled by Rock and Steel types. That can be somewhat remediated thanks to Knock Off:
- Golem hates losing his WP or Lefties
- You don't stay with Dodrio on Probopass, and his usage is decreasing anyway.
- Vullaby hates losing her Eviolite as without it, she becomes weak to Brave Bird in some way.
- Pawniard isn't supposed to take hits.
- Metang is weak to Knock Off.
- klang hates losing its Eviolite.
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I have another idea too. Should we cut D rank into 3 parts ? D+, D and D-. I just saw that there are 20 D ranks. This is simply too much. Or shall we see which Pokemon are worth D rank and which are not ?
Originally had Dodrio as well but CharizardIsMeh summed it up nicely another little add on is its Scarfed set which is pretty good right now along with its NG lure set which is also neat enough to mention.
Mightyena - Mightyena is still one of the most effective cleaners from my experience and nothing that dramatic has warranted a drop to B+ Mightyena still possess great pressuring capabilities and easily can wear down teams slowly early game or clean late-game its combination of Dual Dark stab and Fairy coverage this also in turn allows little to get past it and currently it has a very open 4th slot and while Iron Tail is still probably the best option moves like Taunt,Toxic and even Substitute or Super Fang (The latter two with Black Glasses) all providing another option to get through bulky or support Pokemon on balanced/stall teams that otherwise would wall or trouble Mightyena. The main argument i saw for this Mightyena to move down was quite a poor one being people were preparing for Pawniard when it came making it less effective this kinda annoys me slightly as Mightyena was already being prepared for with nothing changing when Pawniard dropped all that did was return the old Dark Spam core it's honestly still a solid Pokemon despite the recent meta changes and is more so underused then less viable from my perspective. Keep in A-
Fraxure - Fraxure is definitely an interesting Pokemon to nom for a drop but again with a very cringe way of putting it as Fraxure goes in the current meta id say it is very good right now with playstyles like Bulky Offense,Semi-Stall,Stall finally being viable in Pu Fraxure's SD set (even non webs) has become quite better and something to note. An annoyance of mine on the drop nom is that all scarfers revenge it with ease is just so wrong it takes quite a bit of prior damage for most scarfers to kill it with only 2 notable scarfers scoring the ohko being Rotom-F (Blizzard reliance) and Mr. Mime(Chance at full to live D-Gleam) I've even personally put more investment in SpD to take on most special scarfers with ease such as Chatot or Simipour to sweep easier. As far as set-up opportunities it is a lot easier right now with how much its able to threaten out with just base damage and if that isn't enough running Memento or Dual-Screens support remedy's that issue. The main reason for Fraxure to fall was that its on the same level as Altaria even as an offensive DD user however that honestly is just wrong Altaria struggles just as much as Fraxure (probably even more) as a DD user hitting significantly less than Fraxure but as a bulky dragon dance user Altaria is better with its combination of typing,bulk,roost,natural cure however as an offensive one it lacks the power and coverage Fraxure has at hand to clean teams. Below are two slight EV spread adjustments i have been using also. Keep in A-
Mightyena - Mightyena is still one of the most effective cleaners from my experience and nothing that dramatic has warranted a drop to B+ Mightyena still possess great pressuring capabilities and easily can wear down teams slowly early game or clean late-game its combination of Dual Dark stab and Fairy coverage this also in turn allows little to get past it and currently it has a very open 4th slot and while Iron Tail is still probably the best option moves like Taunt,Toxic and even Substitute or Super Fang (The latter two with Black Glasses) all providing another option to get through bulky or support Pokemon on balanced/stall teams that otherwise would wall or trouble Mightyena. The main argument i saw for this Mightyena to move down was quite a poor one being people were preparing for Pawniard when it came making it less effective this kinda annoys me slightly as Mightyena was already being prepared for with nothing changing when Pawniard dropped all that did was return the old Dark Spam core it's honestly still a solid Pokemon despite the recent meta changes and is more so underused then less viable from my perspective. Keep in A-
Fraxure - Fraxure is definitely an interesting Pokemon to nom for a drop but again with a very cringe way of putting it as Fraxure goes in the current meta id say it is very good right now with playstyles like Bulky Offense,Semi-Stall,Stall finally being viable in Pu Fraxure's SD set (even non webs) has become quite better and something to note. An annoyance of mine on the drop nom is that all scarfers revenge it with ease is just so wrong it takes quite a bit of prior damage for most scarfers to kill it with only 2 notable scarfers scoring the ohko being Rotom-F (Blizzard reliance) and Mr. Mime(Chance at full to live D-Gleam) I've even personally put more investment in SpD to take on most special scarfers with ease such as Chatot or Simipour to sweep easier. As far as set-up opportunities it is a lot easier right now with how much its able to threaten out with just base damage and if that isn't enough running Memento or Dual-Screens support remedy's that issue. The main reason for Fraxure to fall was that its on the same level as Altaria even as an offensive DD user however that honestly is just wrong Altaria struggles just as much as Fraxure (probably even more) as a DD user hitting significantly less than Fraxure but as a bulky dragon dance user Altaria is better with its combination of typing,bulk,roost,natural cure however as an offensive one it lacks the power and coverage Fraxure has at hand to clean teams. Below are two slight EV spread adjustments i have been using also. Keep in A-
Fraxure @ Eviolite
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Alternative EVs: 252 Atk / 48 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Taunt / Low Kick / Superpower
First Spread - Allows you to out-speed Electrode at +1 while allowing better rolls than max/max
Second Spread - Loses the ability to out-speed Electrode at +1 but still out-speeds everything it would with no boosts it also significantly changes rolls on it against special scarfers.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 248-294 (90.8 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 225-265 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 205-243 (75 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 234-276 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 211-249 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 192-226 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ps - No rocks on mime calcs as they are always OHKOs however these investments at full give Fraxure an actual chance against scarf mime
Ability: Mold Breaker
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpD / 244 Spe
Alternative EVs: 252 Atk / 48 SpD / 208 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Dragon Claw
- Poison Jab
- Taunt / Low Kick / Superpower
First Spread - Allows you to out-speed Electrode at +1 while allowing better rolls than max/max
Second Spread - Loses the ability to out-speed Electrode at +1 but still out-speeds everything it would with no boosts it also significantly changes rolls on it against special scarfers.
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 248-294 (90.8 - 107.6%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 225-265 (82.4 - 97%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 12 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 205-243 (75 - 89%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Mr. Mime Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 234-276 (85.7 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
252+ SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 211-249 (77.2 - 91.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Chatot Boomburst vs. 0 HP / 48 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 192-226 (70.3 - 82.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ps - No rocks on mime calcs as they are always OHKOs however these investments at full give Fraxure an actual chance against scarf mime
Probopass to B+. Its so underwhelming rn as what it can check has lost popularity and what beats it has gained in usage. The only big threats that it actually checks are rotom-f, pawniard, ninjask, and dodrio and though checking rotom is impressive, I have seen a lot less dodrio and pawniard lately, and I dont think that grants it A- considering how useful other stealth rock users are. Volt switch is alright but its really rare for probopass to get up rocks and not be forced out. I dont even consider it to be a reliable stealth rock user it should definitely not be above better rockers like metang.
Mightyena to B+: In theory yes it can be a very good sweeper, but in practise it is often underwhelming without boosts and very hard to sweep with and more notably it can be hard to fit on teams as it cannot provide what other late game cleaners can, use as a wallbreaker or even a defensive presence, instead its a not totally reliable revenge killer. Additionally quilladin, monferno, machoke, relicanth, and stunfisk are all high in usage showing that we have Pokemon to take a crunch, but less to take a knock off. Pawniards defensive presence is also very useful to still check Pokes like dodrio and take a strong hit if possible, and though mightyena can do more damage to checks, it has to switch in and out a lot which really wears it down w/ LO recoil and hazards (black glasses is much less effective).
Fraxure stay: SD can be really effective at disrupting the opponent by killing or heavily weakening defensive stuff like golem and stunfisk, and fraxure's big niche over other wallbreakers is its nice bulk meaning it can almost always take a hit (w/ bulk investment it can take a float ice beam from full), and vs those pokemon you can usually kill them w/ outrage. I used it vs optical real in seasonal where it really came through for me as it managed to utilise its bulk to take out both his water-types (even if he didnt overpredict it woulda killed at least one) reliving a lot of stress from the rest of my team which was slightly water weak. I agree DD isn't as good rn with all the scarfers, but it does very well vs scarf monf teams and no scarfers (or blizzard misses oo)
Politoed to A-: This is used more than most a- ranks for a good reason, as it fulfils a very important and demanded niche, being the best water-type switch in in the tier (being best Scald user also means its broken). This makes it so easy and useful to fit on a team and its ability to go both offensive and bulky is nice, as offensive can do quite a lot to non politoed teams (lol) while also being able to tank hits from water types, and bulkier ones can check other special attackers and stuff like golem.
Mr Mime stay: I don't see were the hype has been recently, especially because its more about the non-choice set which imo is an A- rank set as most, as comparing it to leafeon which can also set up or nuke with choice, leafeon has much more of a defensive presence, whereas mr mime can only take a hit in desperate situations (uh i have to mention chatot before someone nitpicks). Hwish is nice and all, but when playing with or against it I rarely see it work perfectly as it cannot come in as easily as like jirachi in OU, and also this metagame being more focussed around scarfers means less set up sweepers will be able to utilise hwish (to be more clear: scarfers will outspeed and threaten to KO, whereas in the past more pokemon struggled to sweep as they would get warn down). To be clear im not saying Hwish is bad, its helpful but imo not useful enough to get it in A+. Scarf sets are no better than any other scarfer, as things like grumpig and av bouff are fairly common, and though healing wish is spammable, its just not very strong. I think it could move up in the order though (imo the bottom 5 are more viable than pluff, kadabra, dodrio and possibly regice)
Mightyena to B+: In theory yes it can be a very good sweeper, but in practise it is often underwhelming without boosts and very hard to sweep with and more notably it can be hard to fit on teams as it cannot provide what other late game cleaners can, use as a wallbreaker or even a defensive presence, instead its a not totally reliable revenge killer. Additionally quilladin, monferno, machoke, relicanth, and stunfisk are all high in usage showing that we have Pokemon to take a crunch, but less to take a knock off. Pawniards defensive presence is also very useful to still check Pokes like dodrio and take a strong hit if possible, and though mightyena can do more damage to checks, it has to switch in and out a lot which really wears it down w/ LO recoil and hazards (black glasses is much less effective).
Fraxure stay: SD can be really effective at disrupting the opponent by killing or heavily weakening defensive stuff like golem and stunfisk, and fraxure's big niche over other wallbreakers is its nice bulk meaning it can almost always take a hit (w/ bulk investment it can take a float ice beam from full), and vs those pokemon you can usually kill them w/ outrage. I used it vs optical real in seasonal where it really came through for me as it managed to utilise its bulk to take out both his water-types (even if he didnt overpredict it woulda killed at least one) reliving a lot of stress from the rest of my team which was slightly water weak. I agree DD isn't as good rn with all the scarfers, but it does very well vs scarf monf teams and no scarfers (or blizzard misses oo)
Politoed to A-: This is used more than most a- ranks for a good reason, as it fulfils a very important and demanded niche, being the best water-type switch in in the tier (being best Scald user also means its broken). This makes it so easy and useful to fit on a team and its ability to go both offensive and bulky is nice, as offensive can do quite a lot to non politoed teams (lol) while also being able to tank hits from water types, and bulkier ones can check other special attackers and stuff like golem.
Mr Mime stay: I don't see were the hype has been recently, especially because its more about the non-choice set which imo is an A- rank set as most, as comparing it to leafeon which can also set up or nuke with choice, leafeon has much more of a defensive presence, whereas mr mime can only take a hit in desperate situations (uh i have to mention chatot before someone nitpicks). Hwish is nice and all, but when playing with or against it I rarely see it work perfectly as it cannot come in as easily as like jirachi in OU, and also this metagame being more focussed around scarfers means less set up sweepers will be able to utilise hwish (to be more clear: scarfers will outspeed and threaten to KO, whereas in the past more pokemon struggled to sweep as they would get warn down). To be clear im not saying Hwish is bad, its helpful but imo not useful enough to get it in A+. Scarf sets are no better than any other scarfer, as things like grumpig and av bouff are fairly common, and though healing wish is spammable, its just not very strong. I think it could move up in the order though (imo the bottom 5 are more viable than pluff, kadabra, dodrio and possibly regice)
I'd like to bring up a nom of my own:
Beheeyem from C+ to B:
Beheeyem is a mon that doesn't find it's way on to many teams (faces competition from Grumpig, Mime, Kadabra) but nonetheless is a big threat to the typical bulky offense builds that many people use. I'm talking specifically about the Trick Room + Life Orb set that threatens offense, but Bee can also run Specs, Colbur, and even AV (don't kill me). This definitely deserves more use than it gets simply because it's so easy to sweep with. Also, it's not hard at all to set up a Trick Room as Beheeyem scares a lot of things out and can take a non super effective hit from the things it doesn't scare out. If you weaken mons such as Grumpig, Vullaby and Metang this can usually just OhKO the rest of the opponent's team after a Trick Room (remove Pawn too). I find the best set to be Trick Room, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball to help handle more popular checks such as Vullaby, Grumpig and Metang. The decline in popularity of both Pawniard and Probopass definitely helps this monster do it's job too.
Something I did notice though is that this is a mon that won't do nearly as well on ladder as it will against decent players, because typical ladder players use slow, bulky teams with things like Dusclops so it's harder to click TR and just win.
Beheeyem from C+ to B:
Beheeyem is a mon that doesn't find it's way on to many teams (faces competition from Grumpig, Mime, Kadabra) but nonetheless is a big threat to the typical bulky offense builds that many people use. I'm talking specifically about the Trick Room + Life Orb set that threatens offense, but Bee can also run Specs, Colbur, and even AV (don't kill me). This definitely deserves more use than it gets simply because it's so easy to sweep with. Also, it's not hard at all to set up a Trick Room as Beheeyem scares a lot of things out and can take a non super effective hit from the things it doesn't scare out. If you weaken mons such as Grumpig, Vullaby and Metang this can usually just OhKO the rest of the opponent's team after a Trick Room (remove Pawn too). I find the best set to be Trick Room, Psychic, Thunderbolt, and Shadow Ball to help handle more popular checks such as Vullaby, Grumpig and Metang. The decline in popularity of both Pawniard and Probopass definitely helps this monster do it's job too.
Something I did notice though is that this is a mon that won't do nearly as well on ladder as it will against decent players, because typical ladder players use slow, bulky teams with things like Dusclops so it's harder to click TR and just win.
Vibrava to C: agree
Vibrava has several niches going for it that are very handy to have. The biggest niche is being able to switch into the 2 most popular rockers in the tier atm: Golem and Stunfisk. Golem usually can't 2hko and Stunfisk can't even hit Vibrava with its STABs. Vibrava also resists Fire and is immune to Electric, which are both handy assets to have. Vibrava even has Roost for recovery, U-turn for momentum, and EQ for punishing greedy Pawniards. But all of this doesn't really justify Vibrava over other options as much anymore.
For starters, Golem can actually 2hko at +2, meaning that WP Golem can actually break through regardless. Golem and Stunfisk also sometimes carry Toxic nowadays, which diminishes the niche further. Also, Vibrava isn't that bulky and it's only that bulky on the special side. Simisear breaks through, as do most Electrics if they are carrying HP Ice. So beyond resisting rocks, why use Vibrava over capable hazard removal like Vullaby or even Cryogonal? Vullaby and Cryo also have recovery, and Vullaby also has U-turn. Vullaby also has Foul Play, preventing possible setup whereas Vibrava might be powerless to stop, and even has Taunt and Brave Bird for more utility and options than Vibrava. Cryo spins instead of Defog, and has a fantastic speed tier while also checking huge threats atm like special Floatzel and Rotom Frost...and has more power on top of all this.
So overall, there is reason to use Vibrava over other hazard removal, but now that offense has Cryo and Vullaby there is less reason to use it. A drop in viability is warranted, but I don't think Vibrava should fall further.
tl;dr = there are pros to using Vibrava, but the niches that it fills are small and iffy and some of its other assets are done as well if not better by Vullaby and Cryogonal. Vibrava's role of defogger that can reliably remove hazards is done better by Cryogonal and Vullaby due to their better offensive presence and better list of checking or the access to more and better utility options, respectively.
Vibrava has several niches going for it that are very handy to have. The biggest niche is being able to switch into the 2 most popular rockers in the tier atm: Golem and Stunfisk. Golem usually can't 2hko and Stunfisk can't even hit Vibrava with its STABs. Vibrava also resists Fire and is immune to Electric, which are both handy assets to have. Vibrava even has Roost for recovery, U-turn for momentum, and EQ for punishing greedy Pawniards. But all of this doesn't really justify Vibrava over other options as much anymore.
For starters, Golem can actually 2hko at +2, meaning that WP Golem can actually break through regardless. Golem and Stunfisk also sometimes carry Toxic nowadays, which diminishes the niche further. Also, Vibrava isn't that bulky and it's only that bulky on the special side. Simisear breaks through, as do most Electrics if they are carrying HP Ice. So beyond resisting rocks, why use Vibrava over capable hazard removal like Vullaby or even Cryogonal? Vullaby and Cryo also have recovery, and Vullaby also has U-turn. Vullaby also has Foul Play, preventing possible setup whereas Vibrava might be powerless to stop, and even has Taunt and Brave Bird for more utility and options than Vibrava. Cryo spins instead of Defog, and has a fantastic speed tier while also checking huge threats atm like special Floatzel and Rotom Frost...and has more power on top of all this.
So overall, there is reason to use Vibrava over other hazard removal, but now that offense has Cryo and Vullaby there is less reason to use it. A drop in viability is warranted, but I don't think Vibrava should fall further.
tl;dr = there are pros to using Vibrava, but the niches that it fills are small and iffy and some of its other assets are done as well if not better by Vullaby and Cryogonal. Vibrava's role of defogger that can reliably remove hazards is done better by Cryogonal and Vullaby due to their better offensive presence and better list of checking or the access to more and better utility options, respectively.
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