Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

Hey guys, back again to bring up something no one wants to talk about. ;)

I played around with Scraggy more and I *finally* have a replay that is valid enough to show what it does, against someone who has decent ranking. Unfortunately they had a silly mistake at the end, but what can you do?

So, here goes:
Scraggy: Unranked -> D

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Scraggy @ eviolite
Ability: Shed skin
EVs: 252Attk/252+SpD
Drain Punch
Knock Off
Bulk Up
Rest/High Jump Kick/Poison Jab

For the last moveslot, Rest gives recovery but only finds the rare opening. Poison Jab is decent coverage for Clefairy and Jumpluff and finds some use, while High Jump Kick hits like a truck when needed.

Its main strength over Machoke is drain punch. Check the replay below, drain punch acts as reliable recovery for the most part. This recovery allows Scraggy to clean well where Machoke would sometimes struggle. What really opened this set up for me was switching all the HP ev's to attack, which gave it the power needed and significantly upgraded drain punch in terms of recovery. Scraggy also has a nice benefit of being able to spam STAB knock off which makes life hard for Roselia, which would otherwise be an easy switch in. Even when facing teams where it won't work as a cleaner, it still gives reliable access to knock off, so I rarely find that it is dead weight. Shed Skin is icing on the cake because it allows you to keep Scraggy in on a lot of Scald/Discharge mons, which forces them to roll the dice for minimal result, and also gives you a decent resistance to toxic.

In use, the main drawbacks are the flying and fighting weaknesses, which make it hard to switch into a lot of things. This set is, however, bulky enough to take *some* super-effective hits and respond with a kill. There is also a 4x weakness to fairy which makes Mr. Mime, Clefairy, and Mightyena a concern as well as Moonblast Audino sets, which do exist. Another major drawback is of course that it faces tons of competition from Machoke.

The Mime weakness is an interesting case though, because you have an immunity to one of its STAB's but a massive weakness to the other. Roselia (or another poison type) as a partner is useful because it puts a lot of pressure on them for a correct guess.

I have actually modified my Scraggy to be faster than Audino for the moonblast matchup, which has happened more than once (although I don't want to recommend it). With extra speed you are guaranteed a win most cases, including a switch-in:
240 Atk Scraggy Drain Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Audino: 192-228 (46.8 - 55.6%) (96-114 hp recovered)
4 SpA Audino Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 240+ SpD Eviolite Scraggy: 112-136 (46.4 - 56.4%)

A predicted Mime switch-in does a decent bit of damage, which is cool (OHKO's at +1):
252 Atk Scraggy Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mr. Mime: 157-186 (70.7 - 83.7%)

Here is the aforementioned replay of Scraggy at work: http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-336008329

So, now that I have collected my case a bit more, thoughts?
 
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--> Lower in A-

I don't really support dropping Probopass a full subrank; maybe the better alternative would be to drop it further within its own rank, so that it's below more viable Stealth Rock setters for this meta, like Metang. As others like Dundies and Anty have already stated, the meta is moving away from it because of Pawniard becoming less common thanks to the presence of Fighting-types like Monferno on many teams (one less Steel-type to trap, or two if we're looking at Probopass itself as an irrelevant Pokemon), but I feel Probopass's effectiveness has been understated a bit in this thread.

It diversifies teambuilding by fitting on teams that need a SR user with both a Flying and an Ice resist. Stunfisk, Metang, and Golem, even though they are often the better options for SR as you're first beginning to build a team, cannot take on both Dodrio and Rotom-F at the same time like Probopass can. Metang will lose to Dodrio's Knock Off on the switch, and both Stunfisk and Golem obviously don't resist Ice-type moves.

It also works really well when you've already got an Electric immunity in something like offensive Gabite, Raichu, or Zebstrika, so it's able to complete a team's synergy nicely when you've created a defensive backbone that already contains answers to Fighting- and Water-types (Probopass + Grumpig + Politoed is actually quite nice on Balance or Bulky Offense). Not to mention, it's not a complete momentum black hole like our other SR setters are given its access to Volt Switch. Its slow Volt Switch is actually quite uncommon and lets frail teammates come in for free, causing various side-effects, such as gaining the ability to use Kadabra's offensive prowess earlier in a battle rather than waiting to use it until something is setting up or has already setup on you (although, you'd still refrain from using it if Pursuit-trappers are still alive and out of Kadabra's KO range), or threatening a team with Floatzel or Simisage early-game without needing to predict which resisted attack they can switch into.

There's also the problem that people don't build with Probopass's variability in mind; while it's far and away its most common set, it really doesn't have to run Air Balloon, Magnet Pull, and max Special Attack every game. It can easily run Thunder Wave or Toxic with Power Gem, max Special Defense with Leftovers and Sturdy, Magnet Rise with a bit of Speed for beating Golem, Armaldo, and Marowak, or even a Taunt / Explosion / SR suicide lead (albeit this last set is much rarer). And, if your problem is that your team gets murdered by something like Floatzel, it's easy enough to run a resist berry like Passho in order to adapt to the meta's current state. At the very least, finding a new target for it to pivot on with Volt Switch before being KOed (Machoke) would be better than the standard 172 HP / 252 SpA / 84 Spe spreads I'm still seeing for addressing Piloswine (did it come back? use something else!). That, and Magnet Pull really isn't that useful anymore unless your team is specifically weak to Pawniard, so I'd go with Sturdy in most cases in our current meta for setting SR more reliably.

So, rather than moving it to B+, which is already overcrowded as it is, I think dropping it toward the bottom of A- would match Probopass's effectiveness well enough.
 
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REGIGIGAS C+ -> B
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Regigigas @ Leftovers
Ability: Slow Start
Happiness: 0
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Substitute
- Frustration
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch

All my experience with Regigigas up until this point was dealing with sub, twave, confuse ray shenanigans. I had thought it to be a meme of a mon and not something to take seriously in a competitive setting. However, my whole world changed after getting trucked on ladder by a coil passing Huntail and Regi combo. So, I used this defeat as an opportunity to start tinkering with boost passing to Regigigas in different ways. I started with coil, then moved on to SD, and then finally with speed boost/sub passing. I found that SD passing was the most effective and an offensive gigas with sub 3 attacks was the perfect recipient. And so, a beautiful journey unfolded.

This Regigigas set acts as a more offensive, less broken vigoroth set. You sub on common stuff like Stunfisk, Prinplup, Audino, Tangela, Clefairy, and Quilladin. You'll find that most of the time it's pretty easy to switch into a stunfisk's rocks, sub, and get at least a kill or two off of it. The remaining three move slots focus on coverage and health recovery, which is something you'll definitely want to run on this mon. The focus of this set is to Sub on the previously mentioned mons (mostly Stunfisk) and then knock off the switch, followed by subbing until you can get the sweep once Slow Start is down. So that's the set, it's relatively simple but remarkably capable of beating weakened balance and late game offense.

In terms of boost passing, SD leafeon is a really good partner for Regi. Huntail and Ninjask are also options, but I found that Leafeon provided easier setup because of its bulk, speed, and good defense typing. SD and Speed boost passing are more offensive teammate options as they allow for sweeps, while coil passing is a trade off for bulk and better taking hits from faster physical threats. Unfortunately, I only have replays of Leafeon SD passing, as it was my most successful Regi partner, but it is indeed very possible to team Regi with Huntail/Ninjask.

In terms of team synergy, Regi works best with something like Stunfisk to handle monferno, a heal beller such as grumpig or audino to cure status in the case of a mispredicted switch into toxic stunfisk, and a defogger to remove hazards like webs and tspikes. These mons and requirements are fairly standard on every team so I found fitting Regigigas to feel quite natural and easy. I also found it very important to have mons that can spread toxic. This way, you can avoid having to touch Stunfisk with Regi and you can beat gourgeists.

In my last section, I have made sure to include a ton of replays with Regi for your enjoyment as well as to prove my point. I think they do a good job of showing Regigigas's capabilities and talents as a late game sweeper. I want to shoutout TMGTerramorphus for testing and chilling with me while I got some of these games.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-335492963 This replay vs Galbia demonstrates some of the synergy Regigigas has with Stunfisk/Leafeon as well as it's power at +2. This was one of my earlier teams.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-335517082 I saved this game as "Played like shit, but Regi". We both made some questionable plays but in the end Regi ends up sweeping for me.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gold-pu-79060 Game vs Dundies: Shows more synergy as well as exploiting a dodrio's banded pursuit with Regi. I could have played out the encore on poli but I chose not to.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-335544312 Game vs Jungle Fox: Paralyzed Regigigas proceeds to sweep team at +2.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-336759635 Shows the importance of a heal beller and toxic spreader with Regi. Also Regi sweep at the end.
 
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So I'd like to touch back on to Machoke to S and talk about the main negative it has which is its speed.

So basically why I don't think its speed should keep it form not being S is the fact that most wall breakers like Stoutland, the Simis, and CB Bouf all fail to OHKO Machoke, and even things like Zeb, Rotom-f, Monferno, Politoed, and LO Cryongal can fail to even 2HKO/3HKO it.

This means that teams need to find ways to safely be able to net chip damage on it to try and revenge kill it which is easier said then done as Machoke will do heavy damage to anything wiling to try and hurt it or switch into it. Resisting rocks only adds to this problem as you can't just force it in and pressure it with hazard chip damage unless you're running spikes, meaning that in order to reliability find ways to chip at it, you have to be willing to take a lot of damage or find ways to force it in and make it use its bulk to switch in to something. Basically you have to out play your opponent in order to get the needed chip damage in to where its speed actually starts to become a negative.

tl;dr: Its bulk makes up for the low speed.
 
Talking again about Machoke to S. Since Dundies posted an interesting rest-talk set, i wanted to add it to the discussion.

Machoke @ Eviolite
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Knock Off
- Rest
- Sleep Talk

This monster doesnt die. While the other two sets (no guard d-punch and guts CC) are hard hitting trucks, this set has way more longevity.
Even with the guts set, being burnt is a pain because of 12% damage every turn and the fact that machoke is outsped by most of other pu mons. Rest is a good solution for resetting your status and your hp (and you cn avoid pp stall on d-punch).

It loses the good offensive presence the other sets have, the priority and the coverage, sometimes you have to rely on sleep talk picking the right move, but you have the possibility to come back to full hp more than once.

As Sir Kay just stated, the bulk makes up for the low speed, especially on this set.
This is a game that features this set (EnemyJurist vs Kaboom official finals).
Im not saying this is the best set for Machoke, this post is about its versatility.

252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 147-174 (40.3 - 47.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Stoutland: 236-282 (75.8 - 90.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk CHOICE BAND DODRIO Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 314-372 (86.2 - 102.1%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dodrio: 144-171 (55.1 - 65.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Leafeon Leaf Blade vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 118-139 (32.4 - 38.1%)
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Leafeon: 87-103 (32.1 - 38%) -- 95.8% chance to 3HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Floatzel Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 102-121 (28 - 33.2%)
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 175-207 (56 - 66.3%)

252 Atk Choice Band Ninjask Aerial Ace vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%)
4 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 130-154 (49.4 - 58.5%)
 
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What exactly makes Machoke close to S rank worthy? Honestly so far the same reasons have been used for a rise to S that were used for A+ except with more focus on Dynamic-Punch and now Dundies defensive RestTalk set (the only thing that has changed for it) meta wise Machoke is good right now arguably better then other meta before it but not to the point were id say its worth S rank as for its bulk makes up for its speed that's kind of iffy especially since yes it is a trade off generally being Machoke gets a kill but takes a lot of damage in the process usually causing it into a kill for a kill due to said speed.

As far as fighting-types go Machoke has one Pokemon to compete with and that is Monferno and while they do fairly different roles Monferno recently has had a huge spike in usage and more effect on the meta as a whole. Machoke has two main sets which are Guts AoA and Dynamic Punch AoA/RestTalk (The defensive set isn't used as often but is worth a mention) Nothing has truly changed with these sets let alone what impact they have had and while both are effective and DynamicGuard is annoying these haven't exactly forced something for Machoke as chip is very easy to get off on it and fitting something for Machoke is not that hard especially as these same Pokemon are generally for a combination of other Pokemon such as Pawniard,Dodrio,Stoutland and Monferno.

Lastly, When it comes to S rank for its wall-breaking capabilities there are just better Pokemon to consider such as Stoutland which is one of the key reasons a Normal resist is required on basically every team archetype and it suffers the same as Machoke but with a little less bulk with much more speed and power as well as not relying on an item for this bulk which is not all hard to do in practice with Pokemon like Pawniard,Seaking,Audino and other Machoke able to Knock Off the Eviolite causing it to be easily taken out by numerous powerful hits.

I previously mentioned Stoutland and i will again i see little reason to raise Machoke and keep Stoutland below when the two are arguably on the same level when it comes breaking capabilities with Stoutland being much more pressuring with its switch ins even being very careful its also one of the key reasons normal resists are used (which allow Machoke something to check)

Monferno another competitor has shown to be a lot more threatening as of late with teams putting on specific checks/counters on teams due to what it can do with its multitude of sets and unpredictably honestly i find this worth S rank more then Machoke right now just due to how threatening Monferno has become with its main AoA/SD while packing the ability to be ine very teamarchetype from stall to Hyper -Offense and everything in between
 
MaroGod said:
What exactly makes Machoke close to S rank worthy? Honestly so far the same reasons have been used for a rise to S that were used for A+ except with more focus on Dynamic-Punch
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Sir Kay said:
So basically why I don't think its speed should keep it form not being S is the fact that most wall breakers like Stoutland, the Simis, and CB Bouf all fail to OHKO Machoke, and even things like Zeb, Rotom-f, Monferno, Politoed, and LO Cryongal can fail to even 2HKO/3HKO it.
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It seems to me like these arguments talk past each other a little bit; one is arguing that Machoke is very good at its job, and the other is arguing that nothing has changed about Machoke's usage to warrant changing rank. I think that this is a difficult decision to make, because it comes down largely to judgement backed by a technical discussion. Really though, what makes an s-ranked 'mon in PU?

It's common to look at usage and see if a meta is centralized around a given 'mon, but honestly if we went by usage stats then Golem would be S-ranked, so that's not exactly it for our tier.

My two cents on it is whether a given 'mon has checks vs counters. Going from S-rank to A-, here are a couple of I guess decently relevant calcs that haven't been put forward yet:

4 SpA Grumpig Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 180-212 (49.4 - 58.2%) -- 98% chance to 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Grumpig: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252 SpA Kadabra Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 282-332 (77.4 - 91.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Knock Off vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Kadabra: 230-272 (103.6 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Chatot Boomburst vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 300-354 (82.4 - 97.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chatot: 204-240 (69.6 - 81.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mr. Mime Psychic vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Machoke: 248-294 (68.1 - 80.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Mr. Mime: 99-117 (44.7 - 52.9%) -- 26.6% chance to 2HKO

+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Arbok Gunk Shot vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 188-224 (51.6 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 0 Def Arbok: 63-75 (24.1 - 28.7%) -- 98.8% chance to 4HKO

252+ Atk Guts Ursaring Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Machoke: 226-267 (62 - 73.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 Atk Machoke Dynamic Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Ursaring: 276-326 (85.7 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

So I can pretty confidently say that coil Arbok doesn't worry about bulky Machoke, as well as Mr. Mime which has insane type advantage. Chatot can deal with Machoke fine with rocks up. Arbok can switch in alright, but nothing else I've posted can.

Suprisingly, Kadabra cannot deal with a healthy Machoke, and Machoke responds for the OHKO. In my boat, this is a good argument for it being s-rank. That is a lot of bulk.

But besides Arbok maybe, none of these look like counters. I would also argue for S-rank based on that alone. It seems like a bulky Machoke can 1-for-1 a lot of different things, even with type disadvantage.
 
Okay, well to be honest with you all, I'm just supporting the nomination because it is probably the best pokemon in this tier with the amount of switches it forces, without having very splashable "counters", being that gourgeist is the only one, on most teams whilst having a base 100 STAB move that forces switches consistently with confusion chance. There is very little opportunity cost by running machoke, whilst it basically requires you to sack a pokemon / severely weaken a pokemon on your team to even come off half decent vs it.
To be honest with you, I don't think anything in the tier has changed to make machoke "more s-rank worthy" but for the fact that it's getting recognition as one of the most threatening, if not THE most threatening pokemon in this tier. It's severely under-appreciated and I can assure you it's fully deserving of S rank just from my experiences alone with the d-punch set, let alone its ability to run other sets like guts cc for ghost will-o users and rest-talk bulky choke (i also think spdef would be better as a check for things like rotom-f), nevertheless, take it as you will.
 
Ok, so unlike some of the other noms (BEM no higher than b- please ;_;) Machoke wouldn't really be awful in either rank. Buuuuut, I don't think it's S rank worthy. I won't argue against confusion being bullshit or the fact that it's an amazing bulky attacker that's really annoying to deal with. But I don't think it's the kind of straight up good that Floatzel or Rotom provide for a team. Against a lot of teams, Machoke can trade just fine, can be a nice mon to have, but it's not taking down more than one mon or providing some ridiculous issues. Nor is it absolutely impossible for offense to check, with Grumpig, Swanna, Quilladin, etc running around. Its great bulk is kind of neutered by the lack of resists, meaning that it isn't actually coming in on most mons unless you automatically want to be weakened to the trading point and not keep Machoke around for late-game. Rest Talk helps but is definitely less threatening so it's not got that guarantee trade. It's not bad, and once it's in it does stuff pretty well. But it doesn't guarantee more than a trade most of the time, nor is it the kind of mon that I can blindly slap on a team, like some people have suggested. My second gripe is that it's not as splashable as other high ranks. There are a lot of things that can sort of cover its role with better defensive and offensive utility in non-sheer wallbreaking regards, but I don't feel like it's a reasonable mon to quickly put on a team since I don't want this slow thing w/out resists to patch up my weaknesses unless it's buffalo jesus which at least pursuits literally everything into range of any sweeper. Machoke is a mon that will often just be traded and occasionally doesnt do much. You can't say that about the other S ranks. It's like, it's a scary mon but isn't being tossed on every team to the degree rotom is because it requires more support and isn't as effective as people think. Idk, tired wall of text is never nice to look at, but the nomination doesnt feel overtly overrated (what am i referring to) just really lame in an "I could see this but eh it's not /that/ good" kind of way.

edit: I'll tldr this thing when I wake up but i just wanted to get some thoughts down
edit 2: basically this mon isn't as splashable or overall more useful than other things around it, it doesn't have the speed to sweep but is also held back by its defensive typing leaving it w/less great switchin opportunities and can be annoyingly checked w/spikes up plus people are understating its checks... long tldr but oh well
 
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Curious on thoughts on regice getting ice body and articuno getting snow cloak would have any usage in a hail team or is it still to small of a buff to care about?

I really enjoyed regice on a gimmicky gravity team I made, just team speed always let me down even when I landed zap cannon
 
INSANE CARZY GUY said:
Curious on thoughts on regice getting ice body and articuno getting snow cloak would have any usage in a hail team or is it still to small of a buff to care about?

I really enjoyed regice on a gimmicky gravity team I made, just team speed always let me down even when I landed zap cannon
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They are too small of buffs, especially since hail is difficult to keep up cuz Snover is really bad atm. On top of that, Regice and Articuno both have pretty good abilities as is. Pressure is great for Cuno's SubRoost set, and Regice really likes Clear Body to be immune to things like Sticky Web. So imo, these new additions are funny but not worth a change in viability.
 
INSANE CARZY GUY said:
Curious on thoughts on regice getting ice body and articuno getting snow cloak would have any usage in a hail team or is it still to small of a buff to care about?

I really enjoyed regice on a gimmicky gravity team I made, just team speed always let me down even when I landed zap cannon
Click to expand...

Imo cuno will see little change as the evasion is kinda gimicky howeven i see icebody being used over clear on regi for bulkier sets that use leftys instead of weakness policy
 
Regice much rather appreciates Clear Body as it doesn't get screwed over by Sticky Web which is very common. Pressure is actually useful on Articuno in 99% more situations since it gives it the options to use SubRoost against Fire Blast and Hydro Pump users.
 
Pressure and Clear Body are better.

Snow Cloak is just another luck reliant gimmick ability and Pressure is so much better due to the ability to PP stall and your not wasting a team member or a moveslot for Hail to be up.

Ice Body again is just booty it is also like S-Cloak in it either takes an important moveslot/team member for barely any payoff and Clear Body can actually be beneficial in terms of stat drops for both offensive and tank sets.

Also WP Regice is gross
 
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---->B
Probopass is a mon which is actually pretty bad. As a SR Setter it faces competition from Mons like Golem, Stunfisk or from Mons like Pawniard. But unlike those, Probo is the only of them that looses completely to Water Types. While Golem has Sturdy, Stunfisk has Discharge and Pawn has Sucker Punch Probo has nothing exept Volt Switch. And while it can click Volt Switch, the Opponent can easily Switch in a ground mon. Probopass has, unlike the others no real Option to beat ground types. A third Problem are the pretty common fighting Types, checking it great too. While the others can check normal Types pretty good, it has to be afraid of something like Stouts superpower. Nearly evry Team has at least 3 Pokemon that are able to OHKO it, while it cant check many Mons outside of thigs like Pawniard. I dont want to say that ist useless but i want to say that it is really not worth A- Rank.

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----->D
Lopunny faces too much competition from other normal types. Purugly is a better Fake out user, Stoutland a better Wallbreaker. Ist only niches are fast HJK(which is in my means better done by scarf Stoutland) and healing wish. That isnt enough to justify its c- rank. Thas why i think that it should dropp to D

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-----low A-
Altaria is a mon which is able to be played in many different roles. DDancer, Specs, AoA, defensive, even CB or perish Song are possible, viable Options and None of those sets are really bad. It has a pretty good typing, too combined with pretty good stats and an already mentioned, great movepool with moves such as DD, Perish Song, Heal Bell, Draco Meteor... Thats why i think that it deserves being in A- Rank.

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-----D
Mienfoo is a mon nobody expected being usable, but Tect made it work as i heard, i tested it too but even earlier than Tect did. Mienfoo has two viable sets, BU and SD Baton Pass, even CM Pass migjht work. The set i tested was BU. Most of the time it worked great, because it was able to setupp and pass its boosts most of the time. With Eviolite it has enough bulk to survive some attacks. I dont have any replays but i can just say that it won me a few games, especially cause nobody expected such a set. Regenerator is another Thing that makes this Thing work.
 
I agree with mienfoo's ranking, i've tried CM pass and it's very consistent with regenerator + decent stabs to force switches along with the possibility of sd / bu pass, it viably has a niche in PU that's worth ranking for.
Secondly, renominating scraggy to C-;
this thing has a very notable niche over machoke with that it can run a bulk up set with shed skin to take a lot of hits (whilst not being weak to psychic, who are the main checks for fighting types at the moment) and dominating slower teams that rely on status to beat it. Fighting types in general in PU are probably the best offensive pokemon by far in my opinion, it should definitely get ranked.
 
Little cup is best said:
481.png
---->B
Probopass is a mon which is actually pretty bad. As a SR Setter it faces competition from Mons like Golem, Stunfisk or from Mons like Pawniard. But unlike those, Probo is the only of them that looses completely to Water Types. While Golem has Sturdy, Stunfisk has Discharge and Pawn has Sucker Punch Probo has nothing exept Volt Switch. And while it can click Volt Switch, the Opponent can easily Switch in a ground mon. Probopass has, unlike the others no real Option to beat ground types. A third Problem are the pretty common fighting Types, checking it great too. While the others can check normal Types pretty good, it has to be afraid of something like Stouts superpower. Nearly evry Team has at least 3 Pokemon that are able to OHKO it, while it cant check many Mons outside of thigs like Pawniard. I dont want to say that ist useless but i want to say that it is really not worth A- Rank.

433.png
----->D
Lopunny faces too much competition from other normal types. Purugly is a better Fake out user, Stoutland a better Wallbreaker. Ist only niches are fast HJK(which is in my means better done by scarf Stoutland) and healing wish. That isnt enough to justify its c- rank. Thas why i think that it should dropp to D

334.png
-----low A-
Altaria is a mon which is able to be played in many different roles. DDancer, Specs, AoA, defensive, even CB or perish Song are possible, viable Options and None of those sets are really bad. It has a pretty good typing, too combined with pretty good stats and an already mentioned, great movepool with moves such as DD, Perish Song, Heal Bell, Draco Meteor... Thats why i think that it deserves being in A- Rank.

649.png
-----D
Mienfoo is a mon nobody expected being usable, but Tect made it work as i heard, i tested it too but even earlier than Tect did. Mienfoo has two viable sets, BU and SD Baton Pass, even CM Pass migjht work. The set i tested was BU. Most of the time it worked great, because it was able to setupp and pass its boosts most of the time. With Eviolite it has enough bulk to survive some attacks. I dont have any replays but i can just say that it won me a fe w games, especially cause nobody expected such a set. Regenerator is another Thing that makes this Thing work.
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I don't think Probo should go down to B. Rise of Monferno and Machoke make it a little bit worse, but still a good rocker and a great l check to common mons such as Chatot, Rotom-F, Dodrio, Purugly, Pawniard, Articuno... It gives you a normal resist which is very important right now as well as a slow volt-switch which some teams appreciate. Imo it should be low A- but B its too low. Agree on Altaria and Mienfoo though.
 
Ok so me and Anty heavily reworked the lower ranks since they were pretty inaccurate and that has lead to a few demotions and promotions. The better ones went in the C ranks (nearly exclusively C-) and some like Flareon, Noctowl, Persian, Magcargo, Seviper, Gothitelle, Lunatone, Heatmor and Raticate got down to E.
The only "weird" movement was Carbink going C since it has quite a bit going for it by countering all normal types bar Bouffalant with SD and being a good suicide TR lead and usable CM user. Also ROCK WITH EYES
The NFEs and newly nominated Scraggy and Mienfoo now inhabit a NFE specific rank for not amazing Pokemon that do have niches and can be promoted further in the future.
There is still something that could be discussed down there like Ariados, Flareon and Lunatone mainly but please note those aren't the most relevant.

A REAL update coming soon
 
I'm going to be the first to say this new NFE rank is really silly. Like, if they have niches, just put them in D-rank and if they don't put them in E! That's the way it always has worked. And also where's the line to draw between NFEs not in that rank and NFEs in that rank in the future? This is a super-arbitrary way of separating kind of bad pokemon that are fully-evolved from kind of bad pokemon that are evolved. And it is really confusing. Let's just not :/

about Ariados: I built some teams with this recently and in the past, and it does well. What it has over Leavanny is the ability to set up Sticky Webs vs offensive teams, and Toxic Spikes vs more defensive/balance ones. Essentially it can pick and choose. Whether this is enough for a full ranking I'm not sure.
 
Yeah

I guess the idea of a 'we're not sure' or a 'we're not sure yet' rank is interesting, and NFEs are the only mons currently in that rank, plus the only type of mons that would usually get discovered

But maybe just call it a 'we're not sure' rank? Maybe 'undecided' or 'needs more evidence', w/e

Quick edit: in a tier where Rose is a great defensive mon, is Tspikes that useful v stall and such? Let me know.
 
beheeyem.gif
C+ ----> B-

I've used Beheeyem excessively during the Ladder Challenge and before, and i feel like it could warrant a Move up to B-. The Trick Room-Set, which i've used on 2 of my Teams has less competition than it's Choice Specs / LO Analytic AoA and has really exceeded my expectations + saved me quite a few times higher up on the ladder. Beheeyem really punches a lot of holes into many common Balance-Cores like Roselia / Tangela / Gourgeist + Camerupt + Politoed / Lapras, Golem + Politoed + Jumpluff or insert Bulky Grasstype, Stunfisk + Tangela / Roselia + Grumpig etc. and if your BO or Balance Team doesn't have a Vullaby, SpD Metang or SpD Grumpig (the latter still don't like LO / Choice Specs Shadow Ball though) chances are, that your Team will have a hard time against Beheeyem, especially against the AoA-Set.

While the Choice Specs / LO Analytic-Sets are great Wallbreakers, that got stiff competition with Mr.Mime though which can also break many Balance-Cores, has a better Movepool than Beheeyem and doesn't have such a hard time against Vullaby thanks to STAB Dazzling Gleam, the Trick-Room-Set still has got much of Beheeyems wallbreaking capabilities with worse coverage while at the same time being a really good lategame wincondition against BO and some HO-Teams. Thanks to it's good natural Bulk for a offensive Pokemon, Beheeyem doesn't have much trouble to setup a Trickroom Lategame and many times clean the rest of the opponents fragile Offense-Team. While the AoA-Sets are also quite good partners with Relicanth, the Trick-Room especially synergizes well with it. While Relicanth takes care of pesky Special Walls and the for Beheeyem very annoying Vullaby, Beheeyem can help with Trickroom to patch both Beheeyems and Relicanths low Speed to become a extremely dangerous duo and pressures the few physical walls and tanks in pu that stand a chance against CB Relicanth and it's stupidly powerful Head Smash like Tangela, Gourgeist-Super, Machoke (only the physically defensive Resttalk-Set can reliably take on Relicanth though) and Gabite. It's also a nice Machoke Check with Colbur Berry (although you should pair it with a Flying-Type on your BO-Team to constantly pressure Machoke) and can even lure and kill unsuspecting Pawniard and Mightyena, if healthy.

That's why i think that B- Rank could fit for Beheeyem, but it really shouldn't move up even further because of the heavy competition with Grumpig and especially Mr. Mime on many Teams, who are more splashable and often just better than Beheeyem (Grumpig is a better Fighting-Type switch-in and has nice Fire-Type + Ice Type resistances to check more threats, while Mr. Mime has a better Movepool and way better speed).
 
Lampent should definitely be added to cool usable NFEs.

to quote myself: "Lampent is actually kinda decent. It checks so many things but I'll just list the S through A- mons it can check or counter: Rotom-F, Monferno (hard counter), Roselia, Grumpig, Audino (Pain Split + Wisp can stall out non-Encore sets), Zebstrika, Regice, Kadabra, Chatot, Mr.Mime, Raichu, Electrode, Cryogonal, and Tangela."

I've played around with a lot and under the PU squads dump I have a few replays but there have been many games I've played and Lampent has proved very useful in hard countering Monferno (which not much can do), checking many scary threats, and pressuring the opposing team by spreading burns and pain splitting.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-336844936
 
I tested Ariados a lot in the past, too and it worked quite well. It did its Job well, with prio and Tspikes+Webs. it is really worth D-Rank. I played it with Gourgeist small, Tspikes+Webs+Gourgeist Small=gg. Ariados might be not the perfekt choice vs. Golem but you have 5 other Pokemon in your Team and you can lead with all of them so that isnt such a big Problem.

Porygon is an usable NFE, too but i think the same like ManOfMany, just put them into D
 
Little cup is best said:
I tested Ariados a lot in the past, too and it worked quite well. It did its Job well, with prio and Tspikes+Webs. it is really worth D-Rank. I played it with Gourgeist small, Tspikes+Webs+Gourgeist Small=gg. Ariados might be not the perfect choice vs. Golem but you have 5 other Pokemon in your Team and you can lead with all of them so that isnt such a big Problem.

Porygon is an usable NFE, too but i think the same like ManOfMany, just put them into D
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There were many arguments about this before. The problem isn't that Ariados can't do webs, but that Leavanny exists. Tspikes would be nice if it was fast enough to actually use it or had an ability that would let it use Custap Berry, but it has neither. In addition, STAB-less Sucker Punch is almost useless as it does very little damage and can be sometimes detrimental by letting the opponent setup more hazards. Leavanny completely outclasses Ariados as it can do webs and still be /useful/ afterwards with a great STAB Leaf Storm that hits a lot of popular leads (most notably Golem and Stunfisk) and the situation electroweb because of its good speed tier.

Edit: I totally support the Machoke-To-S movement, but my opinion should be taken with a grain of salt because I haven't played since Rotom-F moved to S-rank (although I have lurked the forums a bit in my free time).
Edit 2: This completely unbiased, but it would be nice if Munchlax is considered for C+. This happened a while ago, but Vigoroth leaving was huge for him. The rise of Rotom-F also boosted him greatly because Munchlax can use him as setup, and can also, depending on the set, use Floatzel as setup too. But I can also see the rise in Machoke hurting him. Just something to think about.
 
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