Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

[OrangeGuru]

In case you didn't know, (I'm pretty sure) our policy is that, when a Pokemon requires interacting with another player to obtain, we don't lower the tier because of the requirement; we assume that the player can interact with other players and tier the Pokemon as such. Thus, Spiritomb is tiered just like any other Pokemon that requires ten minutes to obtain, except that it's listed with a "(yes trade)" tag.I had this exact conversation last week.

I really think you're exaggerating the "10 minutes to obtain" part about Spiritomb. I really can't imagine someone finding 32 people in the underground in just 10 minutes. I know you can use the same person over and over again, but you have to resurface and go back underground again (launching DS wireless connections each time). That's got to slow you down quite a bit (and from what I remember, I never found that many people that quickly)

I'm pretty sure we're not allowed to tier Pokemon that require "extra stuff" to obtain. If you think about it, using a GBA cartridge to get a Pokemon isn't that different from using third-party software to edit the Pokemon into the game.

There's a big difference between using software (i.e. hacking) to get pokemon and using devices and features Game Freak designed to get pokemon. I've used the GBA slot to get pokes before because I grew up with the Gen 3 games and owned them all plus a DS Lite, so it's definitely a legit method. Although I will admit that we prob shouldn't tier those pokes because they are all postgame (making them useless), plus we can't guarantee what devices people are using to play (I believe the DSi doesn't have a GBA slot, yet DS & DS Lite do; and people may be using an emulator)

 

[Kurona]

If Dual Slot was available during the main game, we'd simply make allowances for it like we do with Alakazam and the like - just put 'Gengar (GBA)' or 'Solrock (Ruby)'. Regardless, it's not main game so it's completely moot point.

 

[sin(pi)]

If Dual Slot was available during the main game, we'd simply make allowances for it like we do with Alakazam and the like - just put 'Gengar (GBA)' or 'Solrock (Ruby)'. Regardless, it's not main game so it's completely moot point.

qfe. We are only tiering pokemon that are obtainable before you beat Cynthia; everything else is irrelevant for this list.

On Spiritomb's underground interactions - it is fairly simple to meet 32 people underground if you have access to the second console + game. Entering and exiting your secret base (while blocking the entrance) counts as having left the underground, so you can simply dig a base and have the second game's character stand outside it. You can probably do this in about 10-15 minutes.

 

[atsync]

Well, technically it IS possible to get Dual Slot Pokemon during the "main game" before beating Cynthia, since the only requirement for getting the National Dex in DPPt is to see (not catch) every Pokemon in the Sinnoh Dex, which you could do before beating the champion in theory, albeit at the expense of a lot of time investment. I believe this also unlocks the Pal Park and the Pokeradar and all of its Pokemon too (but not Swarms if I remember right).

I still wouldn't include it on the list though, due to the aforementioned time investment.

 

[Kurona]

If it IS possible, I think we technically need to include it -- maybe just put 'All GBA slot Pokémon' in F.

 

[Kurona]

I think we should treat it the same way as ORAS' national dex. Some might be worth it like the lake pixies were in that game, but most of the time not really.

 

[TheMantyke]

Seeing everything in the Sinnoh Dex before completion of the E4 is extremely unrealistic. There are several Pokemon you encounter only through the E4 including Vespiqeun, Spiritomb, Garchomp, Drapion, and Milotic in DP alone. Plus, unlike ORAS where some national dex stuff is great and available right then and there with basically no sidequesting (Swords of Justice, Pixies, Heatran, Genies) there's nothing like that in DPP.

Don't bother tiering any dual slot stuff, IMO.

 

[Kurona]

...in what way did they treat ORAS's national dex? I looked on their thread and couldn't find anything about the lake guardians in the OP. Can you explain?

Huh, last time I was there I could have sworn there were talks about at least a couple somewhat useful post-national dex Pokémon like Azelf and Clefairy. My mistake.

 

[Kurona]

Nowhere near the last gym, no. Usually I have my Eevee evolved into Espeon a gym or two after I get it; good use of Soothe Bells, vitamins and massages make it very easy - and unless you've been making it faint in every single battle, I don't see how it would take that long even if you were just relying on walking and battles.

It also depends on the Pokémon - to what extent they're able to hold their own, and more importantly what their base friendship is. Zubat is a good example of the former because while Golbat isn't the most amazing thing in the world, it's decent enough to the extent of fully evolving around the same time as your starter if not earlier due to being able to hold its own and being with you for a long while. Cleffa is an extremely good example of the latter as it starts off with a whopping base 140 friendship, meaning it won't be long until it evolves into Clefairy. Buneary is an extremely bad example on the other hand, starting off with base 0 friendship and hence immensely hindering how well you can use it -- not like Lopunny is even a prize worth writing home about anyway.

Once again this is where experience is very important. When I've used Budew and Eevee (Espeon) on former playthroughs, they've evolved a gym or two after I've gotten them to immediately be useful and not be hindered much by their base forms -- though Budew admittedly gets off much easier due to effectiveness against the first gym and much of Oreburgh mine. Eevee requires a bit more babying so despite how amazing Espeon is I can certainly see it being put a little bit below Alakazam, but nowhere near E - it's such a good Pokémon it shouldn't even be below B.

 

[Kurona]

I thought that in really efficient runs, the player isn't supposed to stop for vitamins or massages, and isn't supposed to take a lot of steps, so I only used levels in my calculations. Eevee starts with 70 friendship, gains 7 per level until it goes above 100, then gains 4 per level until it goes above 200, and gains 3 per level after that. It evolves when its friendship goes above 220. After 5 levels, its friendship becomes 105. After 24 more levels, its friendship becomes 201. After 7 more levels, its friendship becomes 222, and then it evolves. 5+24+7=36.

While the exact nature is subjective, it's very important to note that 'efficient' is not synonymous with 'speedrun', and hence as long as it's helpful and not extremely out of the way; it's not a bad idea to stop and get it. Just throw any vitamins you've picked up at Eevee, take it to the Massage lady as soon as you hit Veilstone, and while you're there buy some more vitamins if you think it's worth it. Ultimately it's up to the player to decide to what extent an 'efficient' playthrough goes, but ultimately the cost of time concerning most friendship-boosting things are so small compared to the payoff as to be completely negligible.

This is again why calculations will only take you so far. The calculations you've presented are correct - as far as I know anyway, haven't memorised the formulas off by heart or anything - but they fail to account for a huge variety of important factors - the boosts given by vitamins and massages are very significant, as is the amount of steps you accumulate while playing the game. Unless it's something really obvious like Luvdisc or Unown, you need to play with the Pokémon - and/or rely on the experience of other players that have used the Pokémon - to truly judge its viability.

 

[OrangeGuru]

I thought that in really efficient runs, the player isn't supposed to stop for vitamins or massages, and isn't supposed to take a lot of steps, so I only used levels in my calculations. Eevee starts with 70 friendship, gains 7 per level until it goes above 100, then gains 4 per level until it goes above 200, and gains 3 per level after that. It evolves when its friendship goes above 220. After 5 levels, its friendship becomes 105. After 24 more levels, its friendship becomes 201. After 7 more levels, its friendship becomes 222, and then it evolves. 5+24+7=36. Eevee is obtained at level 20, so it evolves at around level 56, which I'm pretty sure would be well past the last gym.

I have to disagree with this logic. By efficient I don't think anybody here is meaning the absolute fastest way to play a game with exactly X amount of steps. At that point you're speedrunning the game with prob only one pokemon. For me, efficiency means effectively going through the game in a reasonable time by not having to spend extra time in a route or area training a super weak poke that can't hold its own or searching for a specific item or feature (think going underground for a moon stone or grinding for more red shards, etc). A casual stop for a massage or for vitamins while you're in town does not take away from efficiency in my opinion (especially since you can give the HP Ups, Calciums, etc you find lying around to the friendship pokes).

When I get time, maybe I should try another Platinum run and counting my steps after receiving the Eevee.

Yes, try Platinum with Eevee, but don't bother counting the steps (you want to talk about draining efficiency - that seems like a waste of time to count each step; at a minimum, it wouldn't be fun). I agree with Kurona here that experience is vital. I've probably used Eevee (and other friendship evos like Budew) at least once in each game it's available and it evolves quickly enough just playing through the game without taking the minimal number of steps (a normal journey running through grass and through towns will suffice). Again, Pokemon isn't a game where you just plug data into some formula and calculate the success of a pokemon; you need experience so you can talk about mechanics like friendship accordingly

Edit: sniped lol

 

[OrangeGuru]

Have you heard that the Poketch has a pedometer app? It has the app installed from the beginning, meaning I don't have to sidetrack for very long to get it.

Ah ok, my bad. I forgot about that app because I always use the other ones like Friendship Checker and Dowsing Machine. But my original point about using personal experience rather than some formula still stands

 

[Karxrida]

Something I just remembered is that I think you can find a Golbat at Level 10 in that first cave (but only in Platinum) after you get Rock Smash, which would significantly impact Zubat's placement because it means an early Crobat. A in Platinum seems appropriate if I'm correct.

 

[Heracr055]

You'd probably get Crobat at around the same time as if it were a Zubat tbh, just because of the friendship evolution. I can definitely agree with Golbat in the basement of Oreburgh Gate being an excellent choice in Platinum, and should be tiered separately from Zubat.

Edit: Agreed with the low encounter rate issue. Just a few questions:
1) When do Repels become available in Platinum?
2) Does Golbat appear despite Repel, a la the Repel trick for some Mons in other games?
3) If Repels become avaliable later and require backtracking, is it worth it to come back later (say from Floraroma Town-ish) and grind an underleveled Golbat to bypass the Zubat stage?

 

[sumwun]

Something I just remembered is that I think you can find a Golbat at Level 10 in that first cave (but only in Platinum) after you get Rock Smash, which would significantly impact Zubat's placement because it means an early Crobat. A in Platinum seems appropriate if I'm correct.

You'd probably get Crobat at around the same time as if it were a Zubat tbh, just because of the friendship evolution. I can definitely agree with Golbat in the basement of Oreburgh Gate being an excellent choice in Platinum, and should be tiered separately from Zubat.

The encounter rate for Golbat in Oreburgh Gate is only 1%, so it would probably be easier to evolve a Zubat than to find a Golbat in Oreburgh Gate.

 

[Ondore]

Edit: Agreed with the low encounter rate issue. Just a few questions:
1) When do Repels become available in Platinum?
2) Does Golbat appear despite Repel, a la the Repel trick for some Mons in other games?
3) If Repels become avaliable later and require backtracking, is it worth it to come back later (say from Floraroma Town-ish) and grind an underleveled Golbat to bypass the Zubat stage?

1) Items are based on badges, and Repels come after the first badge.
2) The Repel will prevent all encounters at L11 or up since Golbat only comes at the highest possible level (10). I don't recall the encounter tables for Platinum to know what that would make the effective encounter rate with a L10.
3) n/a: Rock Smash and Repels unlock at the same time

 

[Stellar]

The encounter rate for Golbat in Oreburgh Gate is only 1%, so it would probably be easier to evolve a Zubat than to find a Golbat in Oreburgh Gate.

Encounter rate for Golbat in Oreburgh Gate B1F is 5%.

 

[cityscapes]

why is psyduck d in dp but b in platinum ?_?

why is cranidos so high? its attack doesn't really help when its only stab is ancient power until mt. coronet (rock slide tm) or head smash (level 52 if you actually evolve it, 43 if you put up with cranidos's awfulness) and its movepool sucks even outside that. take down and assurance are your strongest moves for quite a while. i remember using this thing in diamond, it was only able to do ok vs. aaron because i taught it fire blast. not the bulkiest thing either

assuming bidoof is s because of its performance as an hm slave. why is wingull so low then? it can fly, surf, and defog

jolteon should be a. what really sets it apart from vaporeon/espeon is the purchasable thunder tm in veilstone which is all this thing needs. thunder everything

 

[Karxrida]

assuming bidoof is s because of its performance as an hm slave. why is wingull so low then? it can fly, surf, and defog

Defog is pretty worthless (it's only used in like one area before post-game) and it's not like you need to compress Fly and Surf into one team slot that badly.

 

[atsync]

If Bidoof is being placed in S-Tier for HM compatibility alone (which is disagree with since it really isn't that amazing at battling and it certainly doesn't fit the current description given for S-Tier Pokemon on the first page) then I see no reason why Piplup shouldn't be S-Tier for the same reasoning that Bidoof is, since Piplup also learns tons of HMs (the sames ones as Bibarel plus Defog) and it's also obtained early, giving it near-identical utility.

Regarding the above exchange about Wingull, is there some criteria that this project is using to decide what makes a "good" HM slave? I assume early availability is important, but how many HM moves must a Pokemon have to be considered a "good" slave, and which ones? I ask because you could just as easily justify raising Pokemon like Psyduck and other early route Pokemon with 4+ HM moves up some tiers just on utility alone, and yet only Bidoof seems to have seen any benefit from it in its tiering.

 

[Kurona]

I don't think there's any hard and fast rule, but generally it's more important for a Pokémon to be able to learn the HMs you need to have but don't want on one of your Pokémon you're using to fight (so Cut, Rock Smash, Rock Climb etc.) as opposed to moves like Surf and Waterfall which are actually useful in battle. Though being able to have them is undoubtedly bonus points.

 

[sumwun]

why is psyduck d in dp but b in platinum ?_?

Probably because of an oversight. The person who posts and edits the OP seems to be busy.

why is cranidos so high? its attack doesn't really help when its only stab is ancient power until mt. coronet (rock slide tm) or head smash (level 52 if you actually evolve it, 43 if you put up with cranidos's awfulness) and its movepool sucks even outside that. take down and assurance are your strongest moves for quite a while. i remember using this thing in diamond, it was only able to do ok vs. aaron because i taught it fire blast. not the bulkiest thing either

Its normal attacks and zen headbutt are still very useful.

assuming bidoof is s because of its performance as an hm slave. why is wingull so low then? it can fly, surf, and defog

Bidoof can be found from almost the very beginning and evolves early, while Wingull can't be found until almost half way through the run. In Platinum, its simple ability and decent physical attack stat makes it a good curse user. These are the same reasons why I think Bidoof is better than Piplup. (Empoleon can be attained at level 36 at the earliest) However, I do agree that it should be A tier in DP because it can't learn curse by level up in DP.

jolteon should be a. what really sets it apart from vaporeon/espeon is the purchasable thunder tm in veilstone which is all this thing needs. thunder everything

I agree with this.

Defog is pretty worthless (it's only used in like one area before post-game) and it's not like you need to compress Fly and Surf into one team slot that badly.

It's useful in Lost Tower, Route 210, and Mt. Coronet. How is that one area? Additionally, if you don't use it, then all accuracies get reduced to 3/5 of the base accuracies. This makes trainer battles quite annoying.

 

[sin(pi)]

zubat should be A, edited.

why is psyduck d in dp but b in platinum ?_?

I thought I'd moved them both, but apparently not, fixed.

why is cranidos so high? its attack doesn't really help when its only stab is ancient power until mt. coronet (rock slide tm) or head smash (level 52 if you actually evolve it, 43 if you put up with cranidos's awfulness) and its movepool sucks even outside that. take down and assurance are your strongest moves for quite a while. i remember using this thing in diamond, it was only able to do ok vs. aaron because i taught it fire blast. not the bulkiest thing either

You get Rock Tomb in the Ravaged Path, en route to Floaroma. Rock Tomb + Dig (in Route 214) is your standard coverage, and while Rock Tomb's accuracy is shaky, it serves its purpose as a powerful STAB move until the Rock Slide TM. Rampardos destroys Team Galactic, with Rock STAB/ZHB for bats and Croagunk, and Mold Breaker Dig for Bronzor/Stunky, while resisting Purugly's STAB.

assuming bidoof is s because of its performance as an hm slave. why is wingull so low then? it can fly, surf, and defog

It is S rank because it is available so early and learns all of the "bad" TMs bar Defog (Rock Smash, Cut, Strength, Rock Climb - the latter two aren't bad per se but Return is arguably better for the latter half of the game). Wingull could probably be higher but that's what this thread is for; I'm unfortunately not omniscient so I do overlook things about Pokemon I haven't used, especially if their statline is mediocre.

jolteon should be a. what really sets it apart from vaporeon/espeon is the purchasable thunder tm in veilstone which is all this thing needs. thunder everything

Sounds reasonable, moved.

Bidoof can be found from almost the very beginning and evolves early, while Wingull can't be found until almost half way through the run. In Platinum, its simple ability and decent physical attack stat makes it a good curse user. These are the same reasons why I think Bidoof is better than Piplup. (Empoleon can be attained at level 36 at the earliest) However, I do agree that it should be A tier in DP because it can't learn curse by level up in DP.

I don't think Simple + Curse is enough of a distinguishing factor, personally. Yes, Pt Bibarel is better than DP, but not by very much - Curse comes at level 53 so it's only really there for the E4 and maybe Victory Road. I still think Bibarel is S worthy though.

It's useful in Lost Tower, Route 210, and Mt. Coronet. How is that one area? Additionally, if you don't use it, then all accuracies get reduced to 3/5 of the base accuracies. This makes trainer battles quite annoying.

Last part is valid, but it is still only "required" for 2 shortish routes (that stretch of Mt Coronet has no trainer battles and is almost completely straight). You could easily catch and release/box a Starly, Zubat, etc for those short routes.

 

[Karxrida]

It's useful in Lost Tower, Route 210, and Mt. Coronet. How is that one area? Additionally, if you don't use it, then all accuracies get reduced to 3/5 of the base accuracies. This makes trainer battles quite annoying.

I admittedly forgot about Lost Tower and Mt. Coronet, but like sin(pi) said the foggy area of Mt. Coronet is trainerless and super short. You can just Repel your way through that room.

The Lost Tower only has the fog in Platinum, and it's also made optional (I think?) due to the Strength HM being moved to another location.

The lowered accuracy from fog definitely sucks, but considering this is only in a couple areas it's not something that makes Defog super valuable to have. Besides, you can just ignore it with Starly since it gets Aerial Ace naturally (Level 25).

 

[Kurona]

Would it make sense to make some sort of HM importance ranking? Just something rough.