Pokémon Diamond, Pearl & Platinum In-game Tier List Discussion

[sin(pi)]

Preliminary rankings for DP are up! There are by no means final and I encourage you all to speak up if you disagree with any of the rankings. I'm especially unconfident (is that even a word?) with the D-F ranks - I've tried to leave F for stuff which is a huge time sink or complete and utter garbage, but I may have mixed up some of the E ranks in here too - personal bias creeps in from time to time.
I have much less experience with Pt and none of it is recent, so I'm not super confident in doing that properly yet. I've also managed to borrow my cousin's 2DS (my DS broke ;_;) so I'll be playing through Diamond soon - is there anything people want me to use? Planning to do Budew/Cranidos/Zubat/mandatoryslaveBidoof/2 more at the moment.

I also want to state that while this is my thread, I want this to be a community project.

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sumwun - I appreciate the work you've put in and the enthusiasm you're showing - it's helped me a fair bit! But please don't act like you're in charge of the project. Hell, I don't want to act like I'm in charge of the project, like I said, I want this to be a community thing.
Karxrida, OrangeGuru - no need to call him out.

Also a request - when you write up an analysis, please include the game(s) you are writing for at the beginning of the post. This makes it much easier to filter through at a glance. Thanks!

 

[sumwun]

I tried weighting offensive stats twice as much as defensive stats and weighting the current Smogon guide as much as the rest of my tiering system combined, and the Chansey family still ends up in C tier in Platinum. Its walling capabilities have to be worth something.

Another thing: I think the DP preliminary E tier is disproportionally large. It seems as if lots of Pokemon with very variable viabilities are being clumped into one tier. If other people also think this is a problem, then these Pokemon should be moved...

To D tier.
Onix (yes trade) - very good stats and defensive typing for a Pokemon that can be caught before beating the first gym
Buneary - Available early, only one weakness, good STAB attacks, good speed and defenses, passable physical attack
Drifloon - Available early, good defensive stats, passable special attack and level up movepool
Hoothoot - Available early, passable stats, good level up movepool that includes both roost and air slash
Cherubi - Available early, relatively good speed and special attack, good STAB options, can learn synthesis
Chingling - Available early, relatively good special attack and speed, can learn good STAB attacks
Wurmple (Beautifly) - Available very early, relatively good special attack and speed, level up movepool includes gust, silver wind, bug buzz, and morning sun

To F tier.
Snover - Available late, lots of weaknesses, bad offensive stats
Carnivine - Available kind of late, shallow movepool, bad offensive typing, bad speed
Wooper - Available kind of late, bad offensive stats, hard to get healing moves to make its defensive stats useful

Planning to do Budew/Cranidos/Zubat/mandatoryslaveBidoof/2 more at the moment.

I think you should try using Abra and Ponyta. Kadabra's pretty good even if you don't evolve it further.

 

[Roseguardin]

I tried weighting offensive stats twice as much as defensive stats and weighting the current Smogon guide as much as the rest of my tiering system combined, and the Chansey family still ends up in C tier in Platinum. Its walling capabilities have to be worth something.

I think you should try using Abra and Ponyta. Kadabra's pretty good even if you don't evolve it further.

This is not my tier list nor my tier guide, but in my experience of doing efficiency runs defensive mons tend to end up low because walling is slower than just outright killing something. Everything in these games have exploitable weaknesses that can be taken advantage of (except that blasted Mismagius in Platinum) by common offensive Pokemon: bad typing, low defenses, low Speed. Battles are wrapped up quicker with offensive Pokemon and that contributes favorably to the concept of an efficient run.

sin(pi) are you planning to catch a random Abra or do the trade one in Oreburgh City (req. Machop)? The trade one has a 31 IV in SpA iirc and Hidden Power Ice.

 

[Afti]

I tried weighting offensive stats twice as much as defensive stats and weighting the current Smogon guide as much as the rest of my tiering system combined, and the Chansey family still ends up in C tier in Platinum. Its walling capabilities have to be worth something.

If you're talking about "weighting stats" your philosophy is wrongheaded, anyway. Stats don't matter. Good stats can be valuable, of course - but there are plenty of really good ingame Pokémon that work with decidedly mediocre stats. RBY/FRLG Clefairy is the first thing that comes to mind - Clefable's stat spread is briefly kind of impressive if you evolve it ASAP, but by midgame it's mediocre, and at endgame it's probably the statistically weakest thing on your team. But Clefairy is still rightly considered a top-tier mon because it provides efficient solutions to a whole lot of problems.

It's easily obtained early on, can be evolved immediately without a second thought, and can be tailored to tackle a wide variety of different threats throughout the game due to having just enough stats to capitalize on its frankly absurd TM/tutor compatibility.

FRLG Clefable is tanky enough to hold its own against Misty and Surge and hits hard with STAB Mega Kick or Mega Punch, leaning on the fact that it has access to higher BP moves than anything else you're going to run into at a point in the game where 70 Atk is pretty solid. Later on, its TM compatibility becomes the major selling point, as Clefable's expansive movepool gives it the ability to fill holes in your team such that you can make it into a solution to just about any major battle you need to fight. Clefable can be made into a mon that can take apart any of Erika, Koga, Sabrina, Blaine, or Giovanni, and going into the E4 can provide answers to Lorelei, Agatha, Lance, and your rival.

Clefable's stats are sorta junk for most of the game, but that doesn't matter because they're just good enough to let it quickly dismantle a whole lot of different targets given the right moves. It's not really that bulky, but it's bulky enough that it can take the hits it needs to take; it's not really that strong, but it's strong enough that it gets one-hit and two-hit KOs on just about whatever it wants to. Clefable is a good mon because it solves problems.

Platinum Chansey, by contrast, does not present an efficient solution to any problem. At all. It can beat a decent number of things, but it does so by a time-intensive process of Toxic stalling them. The pool of things Chansey can get out of your way in one or two turns is negligible.

There are a whole lot of mons that can work with the time investment Chansey asks of you. Time is a resource and Chansey is a gross waste of that resource.

If you can sit there and mash the A button and wait for things to die, you could also just sit there and mash the A button and watch your Staravia murder random encounters until you have a Staraptor before Gardenia. This is a better use of your time investment, even - you powerlevel that Starly early in the game and it'll carry you from then on out.

When you're talking about ingame viability, you're talking about maximizing return on investment. You want a Pokémon that asks as little as possible from you and makes as many problems as possible go away.

Chansey asks a great deal from players and never really stops being that demanding. Even as a Blissey, it doesn't really have any matchups that it actually provides an efficient solution to. It can win against a decent number of things, but winning at a grotesque time cost doesn't matter. Anything can win when you invest that kind of time into it, and the vast majority of things would do more for you with less time investment. Even among other "bad" mons - like, Sudowoodo is sort of a trash fire, but if you invest time in it like you'd need to invest time into Chansey, Sudowoodo eventually gets to be a fast, self-sufficient solution to things. I mean, it's fast and self-sufficient because it's got 20 levels on what it's fighting, but those Rock Slides do put hurt on things.

Sudowoodo stinks!

It's better than Chansey, though, because Chansey is a bad Pokémon.

 

[sin(pi)]

^this is exactly what I was trying to say, excellent post!

sin(pi) are you planning to catch a random Abra or do the trade one in Oreburgh City (req. Machop)? The trade one has a 31 IV in SpA iirc and Hidden Power Ice.

I'm personally not planning to use Abra in runs; I find it fairly boring because of its limited movepool (you get like, Psychic type moves, Shadow Ball - which hardly hits anything since Steel resists this gen, and various support moves which you don't have the bulk to use mostly), though there is no denying its brutal efficiency. For the purposes of the tier list, I consider both. The trade one is frankly better and there's no real reason not to use it - iirc it has a good nature, and like you said, a good SpA IV and HP Ice which is vaguely useful for Garchomp if you outspeed/outbulk. Catching and training a Machop to level 15 or so is far easier than doing the same for a wild Abra, even if you go with Chimchar and Taunt because switch-training is painful early game (you don't yet have a good level advantage over route trainerbit I have used it before, and was impressed, but it doesn't interest me outside of GSC, where it's rather too good.

Also, Jesus Christ is Piplup bad until it gets Bubblebeam. Whose idea was it to have a Water type not learn Water Gun, anyway?
It's making up for it now with a strong Surf, but still...

 

[sin(pi)]

Sorry if this sounds annoying, but are you still working on this?

I didn't see your edit! Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I'll address it now.

I do agree that the E and F tiers are a bit too large atm, but then there are a ton of really unviable mons.
D tier:

Onix (yes trade) - very good stats and defensive typing for a Pokemon that can be caught before beating the first gym

I put this in E because you're stuck with Onix for like half the game (until Iron Island), and Onix fucking sucks. 40 base attack with a mediocre typing (beyong the early game, at least) means you're going to struggle to train it, so it's probably going to be holding the EXP share - and in my book, that is pretty damning evidence that a Pokémon is F rank worthy (this is why tradeless Onix is F). Steelix is pretty decent, but it's slow and its only good stat is defense (85 atk is decent but not good). In addition, its STAB options are Dig (2 turns which is annoying, but otherwise a good move), EQ (comes extremely late), Gyro Ball (15000 Coins in the Game Corner, ie 300000 pokédollars), and the inaccurate Iron Tail. All of these except the last are TM only. It's a bit better in Pt, thanks to Curse and move tutor moves (I don't recall if you can get Iron Head before the postgame though), but it is certainly not good in DP. E rank is fine and I'd honestly be more likely to want to drop it than raise it.

Buneary - Available early, only one weakness, good STAB attacks, good speed and defenses, passable physical attack

This sounds fine, again this is better in Pt because early Soothe Bell but not hugely; walking up and down doesn't take too long once you have a bike. 76 atk means it does drop off late game, though.

Drifloon - Available early, good defensive stats, passable special attack and level up movepool

Sounds good, its typing is very good ingame (immunities!). My main problems are the irritating Friday only availability - though this can be manipulated around - and the shallow movepool, but it just about has what it needs.

Hoothoot - Available early, passable stats, good level up movepool that includes both roost and air slash

Aside from being completely and utterly outclassed by Starly in literally every single way possible, I don't disagree with this. And since we don't tier Pokémon down because they're outclassed, I'm fine with moving it up.

Cherubi - Available early, relatively good speed and special attack, good STAB options, can learn synthesis

It's a Honey tree Pokémon, its stats are mediocre, and its entire level up movepool is 11 moves - all of which are grass type, normal type, or status moves. I'm going to move this down to F, actually (mainly because of the Honey tree thing, but rest doesn't help).

Chingling - Available early, relatively good special attack and speed, can learn good STAB attacks

Not convinced by this. Sure, it can evolve fairly quickly (only at night though and friendship-based, so you'll be walking a lot), and it gets a few cool moves through level up and TM. No natural Psychic is annoying, though, and means you either need to spend a pretty penny at the GC, or wait until post-Snowpoint. Also its highest stat is its 95 SpA, and everything else is subpar.

Wurmple (Beautifly) - Available very early, relatively good special attack and speed, level up movepool includes gust, silver wind, bug buzz, and morning sun

The problem (well, one of many) with Wurmple evos is the lottery you have to play with them, unless you prefer raising Harden the Silcoon. It pulls weight against a which is nice (quad resists are cool), but it drops off soon after that. It can't even beat Maylene despite the type advantage, because you're stuck with 40BP STAB or offstat Aerial Ace (which requires skipping the gym until you reach Pastoria, a really dumb way to do things) while Machoke smacks you with Rock Tomb. Bug Buzz is completely irrelevant because it comes at level 41 which is way beyond the point where Beautifly is efficient to train (that's essentially somewhere between Canalave and the Veilstone Galactic hideout, depending on party size). Definitely not raising it beyond E.

To F tier:
Let me preface this by saying that, for me, F rank should be reserved for things which are either stupidly difficult to obtain (think Munchlax or Mesprit), available very late with poor stats (eg Mantyke), or are simply pathetic (Shieldon). I don't agree with any of these for that reason.

Snover - Available late, lots of weaknesses, bad offensive stats

Sorta agree with this, also because of its detrimental (to your team) ability. But it doesn't fit the description of "pathetic" to me - Abomasnow's Blizzards are strong, and ice shard is always good - not to mention its fairly varied movepool.

Carnivine - Available kind of late, shallow movepool, bad offensive typing, bad speed

Great Marsh isn't late, but yeah. That slow speed and mediocre bulk is a bit of a pain, but on the other hand, it's fairly easy to get, has pretty good offensive stats and is immediately useful (especially if you still have the Grass Knot TM). Disagree with this but I could possibly be persuaded otherwise.

Wooper - Available kind of late, bad offensive stats, hard to get healing moves to make its defensive stats useful

Again, Marsh isn't late by my books. It is pretty weak, but high BP moves help with that (natural EQ!!!) and it's a good HM slave if nothing else.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Not convinced by this. Sure, it can evolve fairly quickly (only at night though and friendship-based, so you'll be walking a lot), and it gets a few cool moves through level up and TM. No natural Psychic is annoying, though, and means you either need to spend a pretty penny at the GC, or wait until post-Snowpoint. Also its highest stat is its 95 SpA, and everything else is subpar.

Definitely agree. Chingling is pretty bad even for in-game. I used it recently in a Platinum run and had to give up on it lol. Between being a friendship evolution and a night time evolution, it can take a while to get to Chimecho. Also, because it is a "baby" pokemon it is really weak (the thing about Psychic is very annoying I would say), so you can have trouble keeping friendship high enough. I would advocate for F Rank, but no higher than E in my opinion

 

[sumwun]

Regarding moves from E tier to F tier
I think I'm beginning to understand the difference between the two tiers.
E: a tiny bit useful
F: absolutely not useful at all
However, the line between those descriptions is often blurry. This is why I think it might be easier to think of tiers as a spectrum, and roughly order evolution families from most ideal to least ideal (should probably emphasize the use of roughly). Then, when a tier (such as E tier) becomes too big, I can figure out a few Pokemon that are close to being F tier and suggest that they be moved to F tier, which was exactly how I came up with Snover, Wooper, and Carnivine. I also don't see why honey trees are such a big problem, because (on some systems) you can easily move the clock forward six hours and the Pokemon appears instantly, or you can do something else and come back after six hours.

Regarding moves from E tier to D tier
If the E tier is too big and the D tier too small, then someone has to move SOMETHING out of E tier. Sure, maybe Onix, Cherubi, Chingling, and Wurmple aren't good enough for D tier, but then we should probably think of some other Pokemon to move.

 

[sin(pi)]

Regarding moves from E tier to F tier
I think I'm beginning to understand the difference between the two tiers.
E: a tiny bit useful
F: absolutely not useful at all
However, the line between those descriptions is often blurry. This is why I think it might be easier to think of tiers as a spectrum, and roughly order evolution families from most ideal to least ideal. Then, when a tier (such as E tier) becomes too big, I can figure out a few Pokemon that are close to being F tier and suggest that they be moved to F tier, which was exactly how I came up with Snover, Wooper, and Carnivine. I also don't see why honey trees are such a big problem, because (on some systems) you can easily move the clock forward six hours and the Pokemon appears instantly, or you can do something else and come back after six hours.

Regarding moves from E tier to D tier
If the E tier is too big and the D tier too small, then someone has to move SOMETHING out of E tier. Sure, maybe Onix, Cherubi, Chingling, and Wurmple aren't good enough for D tier, but then we should probably think of some other Pokemon to move.

Essentially yeah, that's the distinction I'm going for.
Not entirely sure what you mean by a spectrum, unless you mean ordering them by viability within the subrank rather than alphabetically - this is a longer term goal but not something which is super realistic at this stage imo.
I'd prefer to see things move up than down.
Honey trees are a problem because you have to wait at least 6 (real life) hours between each encounter. Changing the DS clock has no impact on this according to bulbapedia, and if the pokemon you want doesn't appear (fairly likely, given the variety of pokemon available) you have to wait another 6 hours - the encounter is set upon slathering the honey, so there is no way around this. Yes, you can do something else for that time period, but that's hardly efficient and it might end up taking several days to get the mon you want.

 

[Codraroll]

In my humble opinion, having seven tiers adds a degree of complexity we don't really need. I understand that the school system uses A to F, but in that system there are five passing grades: Good, average, and poor, plus outstandingly good and outstandingly poor. Then there's F for fail. And we added S for "Super good" or something to that effect, to balance out the amount of positive and negative tiers.

I think a tiering system only needs five grades. Average in the middle, then better-than-average above it, below-average below it, and two categories for outstandingly good and outstandingly bad. You could even do away with the latter two and only use a three-point scale (that's how I personally rate movies), but then there wouldn't be much distinguishing "slightly-worse-than-average" and "slightly-better-than-average". But five grades ought to give a sufficient resolution of difference for these purposes. There's not that much separating an E from a D or an F. I can understand that some S's are clearly much better than the 'mons in A, so you need to keep them separately with the S tier - or it could mean that the B tier simply isn't wide enough and the criteria for A are too lax.

But, convention, whatever. The OU Viability Rankings thread operates with ten tiers, but I guess resolution is everything when analysing a competitive metagame. For just determining which 'mons work best for casual, but efficient in-game runs, we can afford to scale it down a little.

 

[Kurona]

I would strongly argue for Weavile being at least B in Platinum, though significantly lower in DP. I haven't got a full write-up or anything - yet - but it was an incredible instrumental part of my team in my last run. A much earlier Razor Claw in Cyrus' room helps it SO much, and from then on it only really needs Ice Punch, Night Slash and Swords Dance - the last slot's completely free and it has fun demolishing anything that it's not weak to. Incredible against Lucien and Bertha, pretty decent against like half of Aaron, Cyrus and Cynthia (it's the best thing you can possibly get against a Garchomp); in general pulls in great performances against the normal trainers and even neutral matchups like Volkner. I'll try and get something written up but I feel it's very underrated in the current list.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Regarding moves from E tier to D tier
If the E tier is too big and the D tier too small, then someone has to move SOMETHING out of E tier. Sure, maybe Onix, Cherubi, Chingling, and Wurmple aren't good enough for D tier, but then we should probably think of some other Pokemon to move.

If we think D is too small, technically we could also move stuff from C down to D (like Nosepass in platinum - already said why that thing sucks)

 

[Karxrida]

I'm against trying to order by viability within subranks instead of alphabetically. There are too many Pokémon for exact placements to be easily decided on, especially once you start getting to the garbage. If anything it's just arbitrary.

Does it really matter if Starly is marginally better than Chimchar or vice versa? All we need to do is say that they're both S to get the point across about how good they are.

Also, alphabetical is easier for skimming purposes.

 

[OrangeGuru]

First, I think I came up with a better way to word my argument.
Every fully evolved Pokemon has some way to deal damage and can defeat at least a few opponents, so the cutoff between "a tiny bit useful" and "pathetic" is very blurry and controversial. Therefore, I think it's easier to think of F tier as simply the Pokemon that aren't ideal enough for E tier. This also makes the boundaries between tiers more flexible, and Pokemon can be more easily moved out of a tier if that tier gets too big.

I don't think we should be trying to create tiers of a certain size. If 15 pokemon fit the definition of B tier and only 6 fit the definition of C tier (just random numbers), then so be it. We shouldn't be molding the tiers around a certain number of pokes, but rather around a standard and hold to it if that makes sense.

Fourth, I have some more suggestions for moving Pokemon...
...to D tier.

Skorupi - good offensive stats, good defensive typing, good level up movepool

Sneasel - exceptionally good offensive stats, good offensive typing, passable level up movepool

Kricketot - available since beginning, passable offensive stats, passable level up movepool

Hippopotas - good offensive typing, good level up movepool, passable stats, losing 1/16 HP per turn isn't that much

As for the noms, I don't have any experience with those in particular, but Sneasel and Hippopotas seems like they should be about C rather than D. Yeah Sneasel comes really late, but as you said the stats are really good. Whereas Hippopotas comes fairly early and has good typing (namely no 4x weaknesses like geodude and rhyhorn), plus sandstorm passive damage can be useful because it is extra damage rather than something like using the move toxic (although it does also impact your own team so it goes both ways). Basically, I'm not advocating for either to be super high like A tier, just something average which seems like C tier

 

[sumwun]

I don't think we should be trying to create tiers of a certain size. If 15 pokemon fit the definition of B tier and only 6 fit the definition of C tier (just random numbers), then so be it. We shouldn't be molding the tiers around a certain number of pokes, but rather around a standard and hold to it if that makes sense.

The problem with that is that some Pokemon will be exactly halfway between the two tiers, and people like us will argue endlessly about which tier they should be. Now that I think about it, this might not be that big of a problem because we argue endlessly anyway.

Sneasel and Hippopotas seems like they should be about C rather than D. Yeah Sneasel comes really late, but as you said the stats are really good. Whereas Hippopotas comes fairly early and has good typing (namely no 4x weaknesses like geodude and rhyhorn), plus sandstorm passive damage can be useful because it is extra damage rather than something like using the move toxic (although it does also impact your own team so it goes both ways).

sin(pi) apparently wants them to be E tier, so I nominated them for D tier as sort of a compromise.

 

[Antihaxxer]

No mention of the useful Confusion against many Poison types ? And later, Zen Headbutt can also use his decent Attack when Surf is resisted

 

[OrangeGuru]

Psyduck, Golduck (all three games)
Availability: For some reason, Psyduck's availabilty is listed as mid-game on the current guide. This is completely false. Psyduck can be caught in Ravaged Path before the first (DP) second (Pt) rival battle. Psyduck starts evolving into Golduck at level 33, which is kind of late.
Stats: Golduck has good all-around stats, although none of them are particularly high. Its 80/78/80 bulk means it can take hits and doesn't need to be revived constantly. It has 95 special attack and 85 speed, making it relatively good for in-game use.
Typing: Psyduck and Golduck benefit quite a bit from their pure water typing. They only have two weaknesses, and they get STAB from surf, making surf even more powerful than it already is.
Movepool: The only good moves in Golduck's level up movepool are water gun and water pulse. Because they eventually become obsolete when the HM03 surf is obtained, and because Golduck only needs surf to win most battles, it's probably best to make Golduck an HM slave. In addition to surf, Golduck can learn rock smash, strength, rock climb, and waterfall.
Major Battles: These are the notable opponents that Psyduck (or Golduck) can defeat without overleveling or using TMs. As you can see, its usefulness drops at around Hearthome City and then it can't do much until it evolves, but it's pretty good before and after this time period.
Barry (Route 203): Chimchar
Roark: Geodude, Onix, Cranidos
Mars (Valley Windworks): Zubat
Jupiter (Eterna City): Zubat
Fantina (Pt): Duskull
Barry (Hearthome City): Starly, Buizel, Ponyta, Monferno
Barry (Pastoria City): Buizel, Ponyta, Monferno
Crasher Wake: Quagsire
Cyrus (Celestic Town): Sneasel, Golbat, Murkrow
Fantina (DP): Drifblim, Gengar
Barry (Canalave City): Torterra, Monferno, Infernape, Ponyta, Rapidash, Staravia, Staraptor, Buizel, Floatzel
Byron: Bronzor, Steelix, Bastiodon
Saturn (Lake Valor): Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars (Lake Verity): Golbat, Bronzor, Purugly
Candice: Medicham, Sneasel, Piloswine
Cyrus (Veilstone City): Sneasel, Golbat, Crobat, Murkrow, Honchkrow
Saturn (Veilstone City): Golbat, Bronzor, Toxicroak
Mars and Jupiter: both Bronzors, both Golbats, Purugly
Cyrus (Spear Pillar): Honchkrow, Crobat
Cyrus (Distortion World): Houndoom, Honchkrow, Crobat
Volkner: Ambipom
Barry (Pokemon League): Staraptor, Infernape, Rapidash
Aaron: Yanmega, Scizor, Beautifly, Vespiquen, Drapion
Bertha: Gliscor, Rhyperior, Quagsire, Whiscash, Sudowoodo, Golem, Hippowdon
Flint: Houndoom, Flareon, Magmortar, Steelix, Lopunny, Rapidash, Drifblim, Infernape
Lucian: Girafarig, Medicham, Bronzong
Cynthia: Gastrodon, Spiritomb, Lucario
Additional Comments: Psyduck and Golduck are exceptionally typical Pokemon (water type, 500 base stat total, no amazing abilities, no interesting moves, medium fast growth rate, level evolution), so I don't really have anything to say here. Due to Psyduck's very early availabiltiy, good overall stats, strong STAB in surf, and my lack of anything to say here, I nominate Psyduck for A tier in all three games.

hmmm while I agree that psyduck has early availability and is useful as an HM Slave, you mentioned yourself that the usefulness drops off after Hearthome City for a while and outside of Surf it's not doing a whole lot of damage (confusion is super weak and Zen Headbutt requires move tutor which would be better on some other pokes). I see it more as a B poke personally (at least in Platinum where you lose slightly more major battles like Volkner going full electric), but I haven't used it either. I'll hop back with a nom of my own later when I have some more time.

 

[sumwun]

hmmm while I agree that psyduck has early availability and is useful as an HM Slave, you mentioned yourself that the usefulness drops off after Hearthome City for a while and outside of Surf it's not doing a whole lot of damage (confusion is super weak and Zen Headbutt requires move tutor which would be better on some other pokes). I see it more as a B poke personally (at least in Platinum where you lose slightly more major battles like Volkner going full electric), but I haven't used it either. I'll hop back with a nom of my own later when I have some more time.

Most B tier Pokemon, even the ones that become available late, can't take out a third of the Pokemon league by themselves. The fact that Golduck can has to be worth SOMEthing.
By the way, Golduck can learn zen headbutt by level up.

 

[Antihaxxer]

hmmm while I agree that psyduck has early availability and is useful as an HM Slave, you mentioned yourself that the usefulness drops off after Hearthome City for a while and outside of Surf it's not doing a whole lot of damage (confusion is super weak and Zen Headbutt requires move tutor which would be better on some other pokes). I see it more as a B poke personally (at least in Platinum where you lose slightly more major battles like Volkner going full electric), but I haven't used it either. I'll hop back with a nom of my own later when I have some more time.

You only used Confusion when it's SE like (and there is MANY poison / fighting pokemon). Water Pulse does the job if it's NVE. When Surf comes, Zen Headbutt will be soon learned and still useful as a coverage move. And btw, it's a lvl up move ! And it's PSYduck we need to talk about PSYchic moves ahaha

 

[OrangeGuru]

You only used Confusion when it's SE like (and there is MANY poison / fighting pokemon). Water Pulse does the job if it's NVE. When Surf comes, Zen Headbutt will be soon learned and still useful as a coverage move. And btw, it's a lvl up move ! And it's PSYduck we need to talk about PSYchic moves ahaha

Regardless, confusion has such low BP and isn't boosted by STAB, you're probably better off with Surf in most instances (even against things like Zubat and Machoke). And I'll admit I forgot about Zen Headbutt, not many things learn that through level-up so I figured Psyduck as a pure water-type couldn't either

 

[Karxrida]

I've never used Psyduck before, but A seems like it's vastly overselling its capabilities. I seriously doubt Psyduck is on the same level as stuff like tradeless Abra or Platinum Gible.

 

[Kurona]

I've used Golduck in multiple playthroughs. It's a very solid and reliable Pokémon surprisingly, but its low stats really start letting it down late-game no matter how many type advantages it may have and you really start to feel the pain of that late evolution level around the third and fourth gyms. B seems the perfect place for it personally though I wouldn't argue with C. A is drastically overselling it.

 

[Karxrida]

sin(pi) if all forms of Burmy are the same rank, I'd consider just listing it once.

Nominating Platinum Eevee (Glaceon) for E or F. The Icy Rock comes way too late after getting Eevee to justify keeping it in the party and unevolved.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Availability: Gligar is available pretty early in Platinum, able to be caught right after the 2nd Gym (the grass below Cycling Road). The Razor Fang, used for evolution, is found a little later on Route 214 (although it is hidden, making it more difficult to find if not using a guide or the Dowsing Machine).

Stats: Gliscor has good, well-diversified stats with a solid 95 base attack and 95 base speed, allowing it to outspeed and hit most targets in the game hard (unless you are underleveled). Paired with these stats is an extremely good 125 base defense, making Gliscor a solid physical wall.

Typing: Ground / Flying is a nice typing, giving Gliscor two immunities (Electric and Ground) and a few resistances (although fighting and poison are really the only notable resistances). Only having two weaknesses is also useful, although a 4x weakness (to Ice) is a little annoying at times.

Movepool: Gliscor has an extremely customizable moveset with a variety of coverage options, including the elemental fangs (Move Rememberer), Poison Jab (Move Rememberer), Night Slash, X-Scissor / U-turn, Brick Break (TM), and Stone Edge (TM). Unfortunately, Gliscor's only access to STAB comes from TMs (Earthquake and Aerial Ace), but Gliscor makes great use of these moves. On top of all this, Gliscor also gets access to utility moves like Roost and Swords Dance, as well as learning 4 HM moves (Cut, Defog, Strength, Rock Smash), so Gliscor can function as a useful HM Slave if needed.

Major Battles: Gligar starts out slow due to a lack of useful attacks (mostly poison sting and faint attack), but once it evolves Gligar improves drastically.

• Good Matchup: Byron, Volkner, Aaron (esp. if running coverage like Stone Edge and Fire Fang), Flint, all Team Galactic fights, and Rival (can beat Heracross, Snorlax, Empoleon, the Grass type, and the fire type, but Floatzel is a problem with Ice Fang).
• Bad Matchup: Fantina, Maylene (typically not enough coverage yet to compete), and Candice
• Neutral Matchup: Wake (can beat Gyarados with Thunder Fang, but must avoid Floatzel's Ice Fang), Bertha (lots of physically defensive pokes, but can feasibly beat Golem and Rhyperior; her Gliscor has Ice Fang though), Lucian (SpD is Gliscor's weaker defense), and Cynthia (can beat Roserade and Lucario, but loses to Milotic)

Additional Comments: Gligar makes for a surprisingly good pokemon with great stats and a moveset that can be customized to fit your team. Despite needing to use Earthquake and Aerial Ace TMs for STAB, Gligar probably is one of the better users of these moves, so it's not that big of a negative. While Gligar starts slow in usefulness, the last half of the game sets up nicely for Gligar to excel. Due to early availability, great stats (510 BST), great typing, a highly customizable moveset and mostly good matchups in important battles, I nominate Gligar for A Tier in Platinum.

 

[OrangeGuru]

Am I the only person who uses the damage calculator to check which matchups are positive?

Personally I don't. I just speak from experience when discussing the matchups, especially having recently played Platinum again. Plus, Pokemon is a generally easy game to play; just use the type advantage in gyms/major battles and you're good to go (although I will say DPPt is perhaps the toughest main series game)