np: XY UU Stage 1 - Reload [Salamence: BL | Next: DROPS!!!]

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Stef0w That's a horrid example. Sawk, while good, is not broken in NU in the least. Also, the power gap between NU and OU and the power gap between UU and OU are very different. Don't pretend that they are comparable.

Prince Oberyn said:
I totally agree. If Crawdaunt is really as broken as people claim then why is it so underused in the first place?

Why don't people use it in OU? Is it because anything 'Daunt can do, Azumarill does better?
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While daunt has better instant damage (crawdaunt aqua jet > azumaril aqua jet, believe it or not) and arguably better duel STAB, azumaril has better bulk (courtasy of better defensive typing and hp) and has the option of running belly drum, which is essentially a better SD crawdaunt.

Both are OU viable, but azumaril is more well rounded(literally), which counts for a lot when your expected to take priority hits like a boss to sweep any team.
 
Prince Oberyn said:
*sigh* So if 'Daunt ends up in a banlist, it can only be used in like OU or Ubers, right? Such a shame...it really is an awesome Mon, with loads of potential. It's too good for UU, but not good enough for OU (well, other things outshine it anyway).
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That is correct. Drought vulpix was banned last gen from uu since it was so powerful. Chlorophyll sweepers and powerful fire attacks and lack oc reliable checks ala heatran which was ou made sun ridiculously powerful. But, each gen changes and we could get drought or drizzle (hopefulky not) back into uu.

Plus even if it does get banned, it coukd come.back later in later tests.
 
Aside from Hawlucha most BLs are actually pretty decent in OU, with the main problem often being kind of outclassed, but they are perfectly usable and sometimes even have unique and strong perks to make their use worth(Diggersby's Normal-Ground type, Staraptor's STAB Double Edge and access to Close Combat, Haxorus' Mold Breaker, Scolipede's Speed Boost etc).
 
I don't know, maybe it's just me, but I haven't noticed any defining metagame shifts since Craw has dropped. Nothing obscure is being used JUST to counter it or anything, at least not at the higher end of the ladder. Am I missing something?
 
It probably is just that a lot of players, higher end or lower, has taken an abscense from laddering because adapting to Crawdaunt is very hard if not outright impossible.
 
Tbh I find banded Daunt more threatening than any of the other sets.

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 212-250 (50.4 - 59.5%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Suicune: 214-254 (52.9 - 62.8%)

252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Florges: 151-178 (41.9 - 49.4%)

Obviously Florges ain't taking hits but it's one of the only noticeable Dark resists. It can even take Hippo without Water STAB with prior chip damage.
 
WebBowser said:
Stef0w That's a horrid example. Sawk, while good, is not broken in NU in the least. Also, the power gap between NU and OU and the power gap between UU and OU are very different. Don't pretend that they are comparable.



While daunt has better instant damage (crawdaunt aqua jet > azumaril aqua jet, believe it or not) and arguably better duel STAB, azumaril has better bulk (courtasy of better defensive typing and hp) and has the option of running belly drum, which is essentially a better SD crawdaunt.

Both are OU viable, but azumaril is more well rounded(literally), which counts for a lot when your expected to take priority hits like a boss to sweep any team.
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I realized that right as I posted it, what I meant is that UU isnt "a weaker OU", its a completely diffrent metagame, which is why pokes like schukle can be B- in both OU and UU.

for instance, priority, in Ou most everthing has strong priority, where the main priority in UU is sucker punch, which crawdaunt resists.
 
Stef0w said:
I realized that right as I posted it, what I meant is that UU isnt "a weaker OU", its a completely diffrent metagame, which is why pokes like schukle can be B- in both OU and UU.

for instance, priority, in Ou most everthing has strong priority, where the main priority in UU is sucker punch, which crawdaunt resists.
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I am well aware of what I like to call the "sableye effect" (named after sableye, who in gen 5 was considered far better in ubers then in OU), where a mon is just as or even more effective in a higher tiers then in lower tiers.

That being said, if you take a random mon that happens to be good in NU (like Sawk) and a random mon that happens to be good in UU (say Heracross), you'll generally find that the UU mon is more usable in OU then the NU mon. Most UU pokemon happen to be at least OU viable. This goes double for BL mons, nearly all of them can be forces to recken with in OU (remember how I stated crawdaunt has a stronger aqua jet then azumarill? Not everyone knows that). Mons like sableye and ditto are exceptions, not the rule.
 
Patrick1088 said:
That is correct. Drought vulpix was banned last gen from uu since it was so powerful. Chlorophyll sweepers and powerful fire attacks and lack oc reliable checks ala heatran which was ou made sun ridiculously powerful. But, each gen changes and we could get drought or drizzle (hopefulky not) back into uu.
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I can say with absolutely certainty that, unless the UU council goes bonkers, Drizzle is not getting unbanned. Ever. Mega Heracross/Garde/Cham probably have better chances of getting unbanned. I could literally take my OU rain team, swap Mega Mawile for Mega Sheep and Chesnaght for probably Shaymin/Celebi or something, and tear up UU. I use rain a lot in UU, and the one, singular flaw is that it's often hard to find the time to set-up rain dance. Drizzle fixes that, and turns Kabutops, Kingdra, Ludicolo, and other swift swimmers to even scarier mofos, as well as Starmie.

Drought, I don't know; I'd kind of like to see it unbanned, but only cause Ninetales is one of my favorite gen 1 mons :( Sun really, REALLY sucks in OU (I tired, it just didn't work) and Drought is banned in UU of course, so it doesn't really have a home. But Victreebel, Shiftry, Sawsbuck, and other Chlorophyll sweepers are only moderately less scary than Swift Swimmers, so it'd probably also break the tier.

Also this:

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
 
Swamp Link said:
A BL tier would just be UU + Broken Shit. And the problem with a tier of UU + Broken Shit is that there's broken shit. If you take out the broken shit, then you get a decent tier.
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If there is a BL tier the pokemon in it have to counter each other and possibly let UU pokemon work as niches
 
Wow you guys sure seem pleasant to be around.

I do, however agree that aqua jet pushes it over the edge, finishing the triplet of utility, hard hitting STAB, and the best priority in the tier (reliable anyway LOL).
 
Prince Oberyn said:
I totally agree. If Crawdaunt is really as broken as people claim then why is it so underused in the first place?

Why don't people use it in OU? Is it because anything 'Daunt can do, Azumarill does better?
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By this logic Salamence would be a top tier OU threat and Cresselia should be banned from BW UU. Dude, the problem is that OU and UU are two entirely different metagames, and Crawdaunt's performance in OU has zero relevance on Crawdaunt's performance in UU.

Crawdaunt is potentially broken in this metagame, but in OU? lolnope
 
So just a verdict from all the posts that have been written;
Crawdaunt is pretty broken because of priority and very good power.
However it can be countered by a free switch in into one of it's checks.
Right?
 
Logic always wins said:
So just a verdict from all the posts that have been written;
Crawdaunt is pretty broken because of priority and very good power.
However it can be countered by a free switch in into one of it's checks.
Right?
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Last part is somewhat mistaken since as noted he is at the advantage just based on raw power + coverage to easily manhandle X or Y check, as they can get worn down. His real issue lies more in his lack of switch in opportunities due to his lack of bulk + defensive typing, that often it would take a slow U-turn or revenge kill to bring him in reliably.
 
My main problem with Crawdaunt so far is that I switched out Reunic for Toxicroak in fear of it and since haven't really ran in to much at all.

This argument may sound rather lame but I don't find him really all that more threatening than a lot of other hard hitting Pokemon. Knock Off doesn't do that much damage the second time as much as what people may think, and so if you resist water you are ok to heal off the damage from the first Knock Off with any healing moves. Yeah, he has 1 killer hit the first time but if it only 2HKOs and you can recover some of the damage there is a good chance that Knock Off will only 3HKO. 65BP moves with an adaptability boost or not aren't too game-breaking I find, and there a bunch of weaknesses which can be played around to beat Crawdaunt. And although he can somewhat choose his checks by his 4th move other than Aqua Jet, Crab-hammer and Knock Off it still leaves quite a few things that beat it.

Still an annoying Pokemon though, and regardless of what I am saying in this post I am kind of fence-sitting as I am finding him on the borderline of BL at the moment. And if he goes I can add Reunic back :)
 
RowDog said:
My main problem with Crawdaunt so far is that I switched out Reunic for Toxicroak in fear of it and since haven't really ran in to much at all.

This argument may sound rather lame but I don't find him really all that more threatening than a lot of other hard hitting Pokemon. Knock Off doesn't do that much damage the second time as much as what people may think, and so if you resist water you are ok to heal off the damage from the first Knock Off with any healing moves. Yeah, he has 1 killer hit the first time but if it only 2HKOs and you can recover some of the damage there is a good chance that Knock Off will only 3HKO. 65BP moves with an adaptability boost or not aren't too game-breaking I find, and there a bunch of weaknesses which can be played around to beat Crawdaunt. And although he can somewhat choose his checks by his 4th move other than Aqua Jet, Crab-hammer and Knock Off it still leaves quite a few things that beat it.

Still an annoying Pokemon though, and regardless of what I am saying in this post I am kind of fence-sitting as I am finding him on the borderline of BL at the moment. And if he goes I can add Reunic back :)
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The only thing about knock off aside from hitting hard enough is that helps to wear down his checks in that they usually lose their leftovers/black sludge so that when they are often pressed for recovery and can end up being overwhelmed if hazards are in play, unless you use recovery moves (Roost/Synthesis/Wish) then this point is moot. Though that is more the fault of knock off just being the cheap move that it is now but slightly made more dangerous by having a lot of power backing it up.
 
^ yeah that is what I referring to by recovery sorry. Roost, Recover, Softboiled, Slack Off, Wish etc. If you have a nice bulky Pokemon without a crippling weakness to either STAB and 1 of those recovery moves it can usually fair quite well against it. And if I could be bothered I would go and fish out the replay of where I stalled out a CB Crawdaunt locked into Knock Off with a SpD Mew after burning it I would, but you know, too much effort :3
 
I'm still on the fence about Craw. The combination of shitbulk and shitspeed is what makes it hard for me to see it as an overwhelming metagame threat. I mean Weavile was a knock off spammer with shitbulk but at least it was fast. Mangezone was a nuke with shitspeed but at least it was bulky with good typing. It feels like Craw is hard to get in and if you do you'll tag something and be forced out.
 
i think aqua jet covers a lot of the shitspeed issues although i'm not completely convinced of DD Crawdaunt's powers. craw is really tough to get in without U-turn but frankly U-turn is so easy to use anyways i would say its on at least a third of all offensive teams (darm, hydrei, victini, flygon etc etc) and helps daunt out immensely. And as hard as it is to get daunt in it is certainly way harder to get something into a daunt because as we have all pummeled to the point now it doesn't really have true UU counters (nothing can switch into any of its moves and force a KO except really random things like mega aggron with defense+hp evs and superpower).

a bigger problem i have with crawdaunt is its match up with stall again which was also my problem with magnezone. there is basically no getting around the fact that sd and cb daunt absolutely go to town and trash most stall teams. just slap on a xatu and crawdaunt and exactly what is stall supposed to do...? even the most physically defensive forry at 100% health is potentially 2hko by cb knock off (never even mind crabhammer). empoleon is literally ohkod with its standard 252/0 set by knock off the majority of the time. even 252/252 hippo is dying to knock off (again never mind crabhammer) if it tries to counter with more than one hazard up or if its below 90 85 ish percent. knock off is just so incredibly spammable against slow teams
 
(The following is not a testament to Craw not being broken). The thing about stall vs. Cb Daunt is that combinations of things beat it, like Florges/Slowbro. But Sd Craw eats stall all day. Whenever I think about running Florges on a defensive team I always want to use enough speed to outspeed adamant max Craw just in case. But yeah, I agree with everything else you said, given the chance is probably vote bl, and I don't tend to think anything is broken lol
 
Sergeant Spooky said:
Also this:

252 Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro in Sun: 204-240 (51.7 - 60.9%) -- 95.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
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Darmantian don't need no sun, meet my favorite wallbreaker in the tier:

252+ Atk Choice Band Sheer Force Darmanitan Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowbro: 149-176 (37.8 - 44.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Ok, granted, slowbro needs to be softened up a bit to get the 2hko, but when one of the best darm counters in the tier is getting 2hkod with a small amount of prior damage, life's pretty good for your wallbreaker. Adamant darm has the additional benefit of outspeeding every relevant wall in the tier, thanks to his not bad at all base 95 speed.

I like adamant darm because most things it wants to outspeed are slower then it anyway and most things that are faster are base 100+ and jolly doesn't help with that at all.
 
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